Covid-19 Vaccinations To Be Required?

[Daniel A]

Would somebody who is so old and frail that they wouldn't survive mild side effects from a vaccine be likely to sail on a cruise ship or be out in society?

 

I'd be curious to know how the Norwegians defined 'old' and 'frail.'

[pinotlover]

24 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

Would somebody who is so old and frail that they wouldn't survive mild side effects from a vaccine be likely to sail on a cruise ship or be out in society?

 

I'd be curious to know how the Norwegians defined 'old' and 'frail.'

Oceania has passengers that refuse the yellow fever vaccine because of their conditions. I have seen numerous people on cruise ships that would meet the “ old and frail” definition by most everyone’s standards. The walker shuffle.
 

You should hear some of the stories from my friend a cruise ship medical officer ( doctor). The numbers that don’t know when to say “ when” are surprising.

[deadzone1003]

52 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

Moderna was the only vaccine to show that even if you were in the 5.5% where it wasn't effective in preventing the disease, the vaccine blocks the illness from becoming severe.  Pfizer didn't look at that factor so it's an unknown at this point.  If I have a choice, I'll go with Moderna.

Pfizer is most likely to work the same way.  Just so you understand, don't think if you are among the 94.5% that you will not get sick.  You will get sick if exposed to a high enough viral load like what you will see in an ICU.  Don't think you have a bullet-proof vest.  If someone who is sick, coughs or sneezes right at you, the viral load will probably be large enough to get you sick.  You may not die, you may not even have to go to the hospital, but you will probably get sick.

[njhorseman]

17 minutes ago, deadzone1003 said:

Pfizer is most likely to work the same way.  Just so you understand, don't think if you are among the 94.5% that you will not get sick.  You will get sick if exposed to a high enough viral load like what you will see in an ICU.  Don't think you have a bullet-proof vest.  If someone who is sick, coughs or sneezes right at you, the viral load will probably be large enough to get you sick.  You may not die, you may not even have to go to the hospital, but you will probably get sick.

Really. Can we have a link to some documentation for what you're saying?

[Daniel A]

20 minutes ago, pinotlover said:

I have seen numerous people on cruise ships that would meet the “ old and frail” definition by most everyone’s standards.

My point was that this was this article gave no reference point other than 'old and frail.'  If you were to ask most college age people, they would probably define us as 'old and frail.'   

 

To quote the article, “If you are very frail, you should probably not be vaccinated,” Steinar Madsen at the Norwegian Medicines Agency said at a webinar on corona vaccine for journalists on Thursday."  That wasn't the most scientific definition I've ever seen.  A little more information would be helpful in making informed decisions impacting life and death...

[Paulchili]

2 hours ago, pinotlover said:

Decision was to vaccinate them all. I believe a certain, hopefully small, mortality rate was always expected from the decision. With most any decision of this nature there had to be an acceptable mortality rate.

A large number of NH residents have been vaccinated in US and many other countries by now yet no mortality has been reported (so far) other than the ones in Norway.

Edited January 15, 2021 by Paulchili

[Paulchili]

1 hour ago, pinotlover said:

Oceania has passengers that refuse the yellow fever vaccine because of their conditions. I

Apples & oranges. Yellow fever is a LIVE attenuated (weakened form) of the virus itself; COVID vaccine does not contain the virus itself

You can actually get YF from the vaccine but cannot get COVID from the vaccine.

Edited January 15, 2021 by Paulchili

[deadzone1003]

58 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

Really. Can we have a link to some documentation for what you're saying?

No, I can't, but people are getting an impression that these vaccines will protect them 100% if they happened to be in the 94.5% group.  Do you believe that if you have been vaccinated (weeks after the 2nd shot) and someone who has covid19 coughs or sneezes onto your face, that you will not get sick?

[ORV]

15 minutes ago, deadzone1003 said:

No, I can't, but people are getting an impression that these vaccines will protect them 100% if they happened to be in the 94.5% group.  Do you believe that if you have been vaccinated (weeks after the 2nd shot) and someone who has covid19 coughs or sneezes onto your face, that you will not get sick?

So once again you're posting your opinions as matter of fact medical advice. Maybe you should change your handle to Dangerzone. You've learned this lesson well, I wonder where from..............

[deadzone1003]

59 minutes ago, Paulchili said:

A large number of NH residents have been vaccinated in US and many other countries by now yet no mortality has been reported (so far) other than the ones in Norway.

So far so good, maybe it was just a bad batch of vaccine that they got.  The story is still developing so let's see how it plays out.  

[pinotlover]

1 hour ago, Paulchili said:

Apples & oranges. Yellow fever is a LIVE attenuated (weakened form) of the virus itself; COVID vaccine does not contain the virus itself

You can actually get YF from the vaccine but cannot get COVID from the vaccine.

Always some excuse. There does come a time, even if others refuse to recognize it. 
 

The cruise line position of being unable to store personal oxygen tanks will affect a portion of the old and frail on its own. If one can’t take necessary vaccines, that’s a huge indicator.

[Paulchili]

11 minutes ago, pinotlover said:

Always some excuse. There does come a time, even if others refuse to recognize it. 
 

It's apples and oranges on another level. If a passenger that cannot take YF vaccine and gets sick, it presents no danger to others. If that happens with COVID that is a whole different story.

One is a contageous disease, the other one is not.

Edited January 16, 2021 by Paulchili

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, deadzone1003 said:

No, I can't, but people are getting an impression that these vaccines will protect them 100% if they happened to be in the 94.5% group.  Do you believe that if you have been vaccinated (weeks after the 2nd shot) and someone who has covid19 coughs or sneezes onto your face, that you will not get sick?

Of course you can't....

 

What the 94.5 % efficacy rate means is that under study conditions your risk of being infected is 94.5% lower than someone who is not vaccinated. Does it mean that I absolutely won't get sick? No...but my chances of getting sick are tremendously reduced versus an unvaccinated person.

[deadzone1003]

2 hours ago, njhorseman said:

Of course you can't....

 

What the 94.5 % efficacy rate means is that under study conditions your risk of being infected is 94.5% lower than someone who is not vaccinated. Does it mean that I absolutely won't get sick? No...but my chances of getting sick are tremendously reduced versus an unvaccinated person.

One of our fellow cruisers was giving the impression that by getting vaccinated with the Moderna vaccine, for 5.5% of them the vaccine will not work, but they won't get as sick. So, it follows if they think they are in 94.5% category, they think they would not get sick.  I'm just warning them not to think like that.  I'm trying to tell them that even if vaccinated there is always will be a risk, however small, that they can still get it especially if they are exposed to a high enough viral load.  I agree with what you said.   

[tvmovielover]

I figure without reference to any particular thing I read that I could still get covid but that getting the vaccine might help and at least allow travel sometime in the future (kids will not allow us to travel to visit until we are vaccinated).  Even the yearly flu shots do not prevent all people from getting flu. 

 

Despite Desantis allowing all of us over 65 to sign up for the vaccine, enough is not available to all counties.  Our county Nassau (near Jacksonville) is only getting small amounts at a time.  The county allowed a sign for all over 65 and essential workers yesterday.  Over 7,000 signed up but the first random draw will be for 400 vaccinations.  Anybody up this way: Prime Osborn Convention in JAX has a sign up every Thursday at 5pm for the next week.  Husband got his shot yesterday and I get mine next week-he had no wait.

 

Yellow fever vaccine is not recommended for people over 65 but I do not remember why.

[Daniel A]

16 hours ago, Daniel A said:

Moderna was the only vaccine to show that even if you were in the 5.5% where it wasn't effective in preventing the disease, the vaccine blocks the illness from becoming severe.  Pfizer didn't look at that factor so it's an unknown at this point.  If I have a choice, I'll go with Moderna.

 

8 hours ago, deadzone1003 said:

One of our fellow cruisers was giving the impression that by getting vaccinated with the Moderna vaccine, for 5.5% of them the vaccine will not work, but they won't get as sick. So, it follows if they think they are in 94.5% category, they think they would not get sick.  I'm just warning them not to think like that.  I'm trying to tell them that even if vaccinated there is always will be a risk, however small, that they can still get it especially if they are exposed to a high enough viral load.  I agree with what you said.   

If deadzone1003 was referring to an earlier post of mine, I think it's just not as complicated as being made out.  If a person gets both doses of the Moderna vaccine and enough time passes for the body to build the immune response and they still get sick from Covid-19, then they fell into the 5.5%.  That said, the research showed that the Covid illness wouldn't be as severe as if the person had not been vaccinated.  One will never know whether the vaccine worked for them or whether or not they just never experienced an exposure.  I didn't get the flu this year - was it because I was vaccinated against the flu or did my Covid-19 precautions eliminate the chance of exposure to the flu?  I'll never know for sure...

[Paulchili]

5 hours ago, Daniel A said:

  I didn't get the flu this year - was it because I was vaccinated against the flu or did my Covid-19 precautions eliminate the chance of exposure to the flu?  I'll never know for sure...

I am more positive about flu shots. Get them every year and haven’t had the flu in many a year. Other than this year I have “normal” exposure to the flu every year without getting it.

Coincidence? I don’t think so.

[cbb]

here's a question I cannot find the answer to:

 

let's assume that covid vaccine will become one we get every year as many of us do for influenza.

 

If we have had dose #1 and dose#2 of Moderna in 2021, will we be encouraged to get Moderna every year after that?  Perhaps it won't matter?

 

Edited January 16, 2021 by cbb

[KirkNC]

1 hour ago, cbb said:

here's a question I cannot find the answer to:

 

let's assume that covid vaccine will become one we get every year as many of us do for influenza.

 

If we have had dose #1 and dose#2 of Moderna in 2021, will we be encouraged to get Moderna every year after that?  Perhaps it won't matter?

 

I don’t think it will matter.

[cbb]

I didn't think it would but wanted to throw it into this discussion. Thanks but

[deadzone1003]

On 1/15/2021 at 2:07 PM, Daniel A said:

My point was that this was this article gave no reference point other than 'old and frail.'  If you were to ask most college age people, they would probably define us as 'old and frail.'   

 

To quote the article, “If you are very frail, you should probably not be vaccinated,” Steinar Madsen at the Norwegian Medicines Agency said at a webinar on corona vaccine for journalists on Thursday."  That wasn't the most scientific definition I've ever seen.  A little more information would be helpful in making informed decisions impacting life and death...

New York Post's article pretty much said they were referring to nursing home residents who are near the end of their life or candidates for nursing home who are near the end of their life.

 

Here is the link:  https://nypost.com/2021/01/15/23-die-in-norway-after-receiving-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine/

 

 

[clo]

On 1/15/2021 at 1:11 PM, Daniel A said:

Would somebody who is so old and frail that they wouldn't survive mild side effects from a vaccine be likely to sail on a cruise ship or be out in society?

 

I'd be curious to know how the Norwegians defined 'old' and 'frail.'

They might take a car trip with someone else driving. Not cruise related but still. 

[pinotlover]

15 hours ago, deadzone1003 said:

New York Post's article pretty much said they were referring to nursing home residents who are near the end of their life or candidates for nursing home who are near the end of their life.

 

Here is the link:  https://nypost.com/2021/01/15/23-die-in-norway-after-receiving-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine/

 

 

Read in a different Forum that it’s now a bit more complicated. The thread said the guy’s father was deemed to frail for the vaccine. The oldster is being kicked out of his nursing home by the end of the month. The plan seems to be that once ( or shortly after) the other residents get their second shot, they will open the facility to family and guests of the residents for visitation. The family was having problems finding a facility to take him in their area. Essentially locked down far removed from family was going to be his future.

 

Another example of how small the world will become for those not vaccinated. I’m guessing they are re-evaluating the risks of the father getting that vaccine versus the alternatives.
 

 

Edited January 17, 2021 by pinotlover

[Hawaiidan]

On 1/15/2021 at 4:27 PM, deadzone1003 said:

So far so good, maybe it was just a bad batch of vaccine that they got.  The story is still developing so let's see how it plays out.  

Well   just my opinion....what ever that is  worth..       The effective qualities of the vaccine is moot compared to the supply and demand problem.  

  There is just not enough produced to get it  out. 

 England is hoping to get enough, they said today, to vaccinate their population by end of September 2021 !!! 

    Many states just do not have a clue, like California, on what  and how to do it.     I am shocked by Paulchili reporting that New Hampshire is almost fully vaccinated with no problems.    That is part of the problem.  and the role of politics in getting it out....     frustrating to see 

 

[ORV]

22 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said:

Well   just my opinion....what ever that is  worth..       The effective qualities of the vaccine is moot compared to the supply and demand problem.  

  There is just not enough produced to get it  out. 

 England is hoping to get enough, they said today, to vaccinate their population by end of September 2021 !!! 

    Many states just do not have a clue, like California, on what  and how to do it.     I am shocked by Paulchili reporting that New Hampshire is almost fully vaccinated with no problems.    That is part of the problem.  and the role of politics in getting it out....     frustrating to see 

 

Dan, I think you might have misunderstood Paul's abbreviation. I think he was using NH for Nursing Home, not New Hampshire. NH hasn't reported any of their data on vaccinations yet.