Which Azamara R ship is for Sale

[pinotlover]

In selling Az two points must be remembered. It’s like when selling cattle to market, not only is the farmer getting cash, but he is reducing costs on feed, water, etc. All those daily expenses of maintaining that fleet of ships goes away, thus reducing monthly loss.

[Flatbush Flyer]

1 minute ago, ORV said:

Not that I have anything to base it on, but I would like to believe they would be looking forward instead of backward. As you've said many times, the R ships are a niche market, there's only so many customers in that demographic. 

And now - with a very uncertain future for Azamara passengers, just where do you think they’ll turn? O vs A has long been a bit of a rivalry. And, if I remember correctly, one of the As did have a recent update.

Again, I’m not saying FDR would jump on the opportunity (especially with Allura on the way and the industry’s uncertain immediate future). But, O could easily fill another R ship with displaced A regulars.

I’ll always remember a meeting I attended a few years ago which featured a presentation by the Azamara CEO. At the end I asked him to compare A and O. His reply: “Oceania is food and Azamara is overnights in port.” BTW, have you noticed how, in the past three years, many of the longer O itineraries have multiple port overnights?

[Flatbush Flyer]

10 hours ago, cruiseaholic78 said:

If the Allura will be out in 2022 when will they show her itineraries, any idea love to book one?
Rosalyn

Completion of construction is only step 1. Sea trials et al. will take time and all will be delayed by Covid’s current and future uncertainty. It’s only a guess but, even in the best of circumstances, I am convinced that the first Allura itineraries will be in the third or fourth quarter of 2023 (announced in November 2021 after most existing FCCs (Covid-related) already have been applied to bookings for pre-12/31/22 itineraries across the existing fleet.

 

FWIW, this is just a common sense guesstimate.

[pinotlover]

Or, perhaps FCCs won’t be useable on the Allura Class ship, only R and O. 
 

I agree, we won’t be seeing the new ship quickly.

[Tranquility Base]

Pacific Princess (R3) has been sold to an undisclosed buyer.

[Jancruz]

2 hours ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

I would have agreed with you had Azamara not been dropped. And, though my post ultimately said that the current industry situation makes adding another Oceania R ship a “no go,” I’m betting an R acquisition had to be at least a fleeting thought for FDR. 

When I asked him yesterday he said no

 

Jancruz1

Edited January 21, 2021 by Jancruz

[pinotlover]

4 minutes ago, Jancruz said:

When I asked him yesterday he said absolutely not

Jancruz1

Jancruz;
 

Thank you for making that absolutely clear. 🥂

[Jancruz]

2 minutes ago, pinotlover said:

Jancruz;
 

Thank you for making that absolutely clear. 🥂

LOL No  problem

Jancruz 1

Edited January 21, 2021 by Jancruz

[YoHoHo]

5 hours ago, susiesan said:

I would like to see Princess buy them. They used to have 2. Princess is my go to mass market line when not on Oceania or Windstar.

Princess isn't going to be buying them. In fact, they just announced they have sold Pacific Princess in an effort to remove less efficient (though in this case with an R ship, a well loved) vessels. 

[Flatbush Flyer]

1 minute ago, YoHoHo said:

Princess isn't going to be buying them. In fact, they just announced they have sold Pacific Princess in an effort to remove less efficient (though in this case with an R ship, a well loved) vessels. 

And, Princess had already sold Ocean Princess to Oceania about 5+ years ago. Of course, Oceania had to put $40 million into repairing, updating and redecorating the neglected vessel into what would then become Oceania’s fourth Regatta Class ship - Sirena - which has become the exemplar of what a contemporary “small” (<700 passengers) cruise ship should be.

[Jancruz]

35 minutes ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

And, Princess had already sold Ocean Princess to Oceania about 5+ years ago. Of course, Oceania had to put $40 million into repairing, updating and redecorating the neglected vessel into what would then become Oceania’s fourth Regatta Class ship - Sirena - which has become the exemplar of what a contemporary “small” (<700 passengers) cruise ship should be.

Plus1

Jancruz1

[ORV]

4 hours ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

And now - with a very uncertain future for Azamara passengers, just where do you think they’ll turn? O vs A has long been a bit of a rivalry. And, if I remember correctly, one of the As did have a recent update.

Again, I’m not saying FDR would jump on the opportunity (especially with Allura on the way and the industry’s uncertain immediate future). But, O could easily fill another R ship with displaced A regulars.

I’ll always remember a meeting I attended a few years ago which featured a presentation by the Azamara CEO. At the end I asked him to compare A and O. His reply: “Oceania is food and Azamara is overnights in port.” BTW, have you noticed how, in the past three years, many of the longer O itineraries have multiple port overnights?

My thoughts about it all could be summed up with this analogy. When I was 15 I bought my first car,  a 53 Chevy 2 dr Hardtop. After many years and having owned multiple cars, for various reasons, a big part nostalgic, it is was the most favorite car I've ever owned. But, if I was going to head out for a cross country trip I'd much rather take the new SUV in my garage. 

 

My point is that many Oceania regulars that have been with them from the beginning have a nostalgic attachment to the R ships that someone new to Oceania would probably not appreciate. 

[YoHoHo]

56 minutes ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

And, Princess had already sold Ocean Princess to Oceania about 5+ years ago. Of course, Oceania had to put $40 million into repairing, updating and redecorating the neglected vessel into what would then become Oceania’s fourth Regatta Class ship - Sirena - which has become the exemplar of what a contemporary “small” (<700 passengers) cruise ship should be.

Yes, O purchased an old run down ship, fixed it up beautifully and added it to their fleet seamlessly. It is a vessel they know so very well and can operate and market perfectly. 

 

But "*had* to put $40 million" is stretching it a bit. $40M is not a lot. And it is not like O was surprised with what they purchased and *had* to spend $40m; they chose to. They would have discounted the purchase price by that $40M as an estimate and tacked on another, what? $20m? Buying a house as a fixer upper goes for less than a move-in-ready even with the repair work estimate. It was likely a cheap buy for O, compared with a new build, and building a replacement for an R-ship would be a lot of money, but also something they could incorporate into the fleet quickly. 

 

And yes, by reports I have read it was in bad shape. But the folks running Princess have been running a C/L for a lot of years so maintenance on that ship would not have just slipped their mind. I suspect it was a purposeful run it until the wheels come off, extracting as much revenue as possible while minimizing cost and dump it while there is some value left. Captain Stubing and crew seemed to keep all the pax smiling and their romance issues resolved as I recall.

 

O did not buy a pig in a poke and knew what they were doing. Princess I believe had a plan too. O won by adding lovely Sirena to the fleet, Princess got rid of a ship they no longer wanted to operate. Everybody wins except perhaps those sailing Ocean Princess expecting what they see in the brochures (and so should have used the service and advice of a TA). But some fervent loyal cruisers sometimes cannot see. Those pax were the losers in the deal and maybe punished Princess with loss of further purchases.

[deadzone1003]

14 minutes ago, YoHoHo said:

Yes, O purchased an old run down ship, fixed it up beautifully and added it to their fleet seamlessly. It is a vessel they know so very well and can operate and market perfectly. 

 

But "*had* to put $40 million" is stretching it a bit. $40M is not a lot. And it is not like O was surprised with what they purchased and *had* to spend $40m; they chose to. They would have discounted the purchase price by that $40M as an estimate and tacked on another, what? $20m? Buying a house as a fixer upper goes for less than a move-in-ready even with the repair work estimate. It was likely a cheap buy for O, compared with a new build, and building a replacement for an R-ship would be a lot of money, but also something they could incorporate into the fleet quickly. 

 

And yes, by reports I have read it was in bad shape. But the folks running Princess have been running a C/L for a lot of years so maintenance on that ship would not have just slipped their mind. I suspect it was a purposeful run it until the wheels come off, extracting as much revenue as possible while minimizing cost and dump it while there is some value left. Captain Stubing and crew seemed to keep all the pax smiling and their romance issues resolved as I recall.

 

O did not buy a pig in a poke and knew what they were doing. Princess I believe had a plan too. O won by adding lovely Sirena to the fleet, Princess got rid of a ship they no longer wanted to operate. Everybody wins except perhaps those sailing Ocean Princess expecting what they see in the brochures (and so should have used the service and advice of a TA). But some fervent loyal cruisers sometimes cannot see. Those pax were the losers in the deal and maybe punished Princess with loss of further purchases.

I'm one of those Princess loyalists who was hoping to go on those exotic itineraries on the Ocean Princess.  That's why I have been sailing Oceania for most of my cruises since that sale.  On the Princess forum they said Princess has sold the Pacific Princess as all cruises on the PP has disappeared.  It may be that Sycamore has added an additional ship to Azamara.  

[Flatbush Flyer]

10 minutes ago, deadzone1003 said:

I'm one of those Princess loyalists who was hoping to go on those exotic itineraries on the Ocean Princess.  That's why I have been sailing Oceania for most of my cruises since that sale.  On the Princess forum they said Princess has sold the Pacific Princess as all cruises on the PP has disappeared.  It may be that Sycamore has added an additional ship to Azamara.  

Very possible. As I have stated so often in the past, Oceania’s start was based on choosing R ships to address a variety of factors including their desired niche market. It’s remained the right decision for 15+ years and has been strengthened by the O ships’ somewhat different focus along with the A class’ building upon/improving that model. 
 

Who knows what Sycamore has in mind? Perhaps it will be a rebranded restart mirroring the history of Oceania. After all: “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”

[pinotlover]

My TA has a lot of customers that love AZ. It has a different focus, with different priorities, than Oceania. Chevy-Ford, Coke-Pepsi. Both mostly provide what those customers want. As long as most features remain near the same, I don’t expect any mass movement from one to the other. No reason to believe that the new owners bought it to trash it.

 

In fact, if one was such an R ship lover, and Az offered an itinerary on their R ship, while Oceania only offered it on an O ship; then wouldn’t the purely R ship lover then be tempted to go with Az and give it a try?

[Flatbush Flyer]

20 minutes ago, pinotlover said:

My TA has a lot of customers that love AZ. It has a different focus, with different priorities, than Oceania. Chevy-Ford, Coke-Pepsi. Both mostly provide what those customers want. As long as most features remain near the same, I don’t expect any mass movement from one to the other. No reason to believe that the new owners bought it to trash it.

 

In fact, if one was such an R ship lover, and Az offered an itinerary on their R ship, while Oceania only offered it on an O ship; then wouldn’t the purely R ship lover then be tempted to go with Az and give it a try?

They still make Pepsi?

In any case, I agree that Sycamore may keep the Azamara brand and perhaps even add that Princess R ship that was recently sold. And, if so, it would really mirror my contention that the real future of post-Covid cruise line profitability will be the smaller premium ships recreating the cruise industry of many years ago - catering to well traveled, mostly adult passengers who will still be able to afford cruising.

[pinotlover]

4 minutes ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

They still make Pepsi?

In any case, I agree that Sycamore may keep the Azamara brand and perhaps even add that Princess R ship that was recently sold. And, if so, it would really mirror my contention that the real future of post-Covid cruise line profitability will be the smaller premium ships recreating the cruise industry of many years ago - catering to well traveled, mostly adult passengers who will still be able to afford cruising.

Which still only remains, and shall remain, a small niche market of cruisers. It can perhaps be a profitable niche market, but never large enough for most of the majors to pursue. 
 

I would doubt that the new A class ships are headed to any new markets, but to destinations where demand has suggested the increase in ship capacity from 680-1100. What will then happen to those R ships? If they put the new A on the current Regatta routes, do they duplicate those routes with the Regatta ( they run the Baltic with both A and O), or is the Regatta delegated to a completely new set of itineraries only needing a 600 passenger ship? Time will tell?

[Flatbush Flyer]

3 minutes ago, pinotlover said:

Which still only remains, and shall remain, a small niche market of cruisers. It can perhaps be a profitable niche market, but never large enough for most of the majors to pursue. 
 

I would doubt that the new A class ships are headed to any new markets, but to destinations where demand has suggested the increase in ship capacity from 680-1100. What will then happen to those R ships? If they put the new A on the current Regatta routes, do they duplicate those routes with the Regatta ( they run the Baltic with both A and O), or is the Regatta delegated to a completely new set of itineraries only needing a 600 passenger ship? Time will tell?

Again, only my opinion:

 

As you well know, many long established O itineraries fill immediately upon being announced (e.g., certain ATW segment like the 45 day 2022 Cape Town to NYC which was waitlisted within two weeks of being opened for booking).

 

With the two “A”s in the mix, all that’s being added is a total of 2500 passengers capacity. And It is reasonable to assume that, in any given week during a regular (non-Covid) year, there are far more than 2500 “waitlisted” Oceania cruisers.

Of course, there would need to be some itinerary adjustments. And piggy-back itineraries are not unusual for NCLH. We’ve occasionally seen a Regent ship duplicating many of our port stops on certain itineraries.

 

But, time will tell.

[Sea42]

On 1/21/2021 at 1:52 PM, Flatbush Flyer said:

And, Princess had already sold Ocean Princess to Oceania about 5+ years ago. Of course, Oceania had to put $40 million into repairing, updating and redecorating the neglected vessel into what would then become Oceania’s fourth Regatta Class ship - Sirena - which has become the exemplar of what a contemporary “small” (<700 passengers) cruise ship should be.

From what I could find, that seems to be about typical (or even low) for any normal dry dock. Is that really out of the ordinary for acquiring a ship from another line?

[YoHoHo]

And now there will be four

Sycamore Partners Announces Plans to Add Fourth Ship to Azamara® Fleet (yahoo.com)

I wonder how they will pay for the refurbishment. With new eager investors breathing life into this brand it will be interesting to see the direction it takes

[PaulMCO]

Sycamore Partners just purchased the Pacific Princess to be added to the Azamara line.

Interesting now 4 ships, the TBD named ship will begin in Europe in 2022.

 

https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/ship-operations/its-official-pacific-princess-will-join-azamara-fleet

[Flatbush Flyer]

1 hour ago, Sea42 said:

From what I could find, that seems to be about typical (or even low) for any normal dry dock. Is that really out of the ordinary for acquiring a ship from another line?

There really is no average drydock time/cost overall. And that time/cost would depend on many variables ranging from normal maintenance to major refurbishment/update. That said, if a ship is going in for normal maintenance, it may account for 10 days+\- at a guesstimated $2 million per day. But, that’s not “gospel.” Nonetheless, a $40 million tab is far more than regular maintenance.

[Flatbush Flyer]

9 minutes ago, PaulMCO said:

Sycamore Partners just purchased the Pacific Princess to be added to the Azamara line.

Interesting now 4 ships, the TBD named ship will begin in Europe in 2022.

 

https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/ship-operations/its-official-pacific-princess-will-join-azamara-fleet

As I keep saying over and over again, the future of post-Covid cruising will see a focus on/growth of the smaller ships favored by premium/luxury lines. Sycamore Partners has been willing to put its money into a formula aimed at filling a smaller passenger load with folks who will still be able to afford cruising.

Interesting that Sycamore is basically duplicating the origination of Oceania. I wish them the best and expect that both lines will flourish when “all the dust settles.”

[travelberlin]

I am very glad that Pacific Princess is joining Azamara and that the speculations of the company not surviving under the new ownership can stop for a while. Great new for Azamara.