2021Eastern US Cruises

[Empehi]

HAL -Time to be creative with you itineraries. Forget Canada this year .... sail out of Boston with the one foreign port being St. Pierre & Miquelon with all the other ports in New England. Perhaps only US passengers .

 

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[ATC]

YES! You can add Iceland, Greenland and other east coast cities.

[KirkNC]

First you have to comply with the CDC order and get each ship certified.  I have seen zero movement in this regard.

[ATC]

7 minutes ago, KirkNC said:

First you have to comply with the CDC order and get each ship certified.  I have seen zero movement in this regard.

Movements often start with a plan and a nudge.

[KirkNC]

1 minute ago, ATC said:

Movements often start with a plan and a nudge.

Ah, ok

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, ATC said:

YES! You can add Iceland, Greenland and other east coast cities.

Count Greenland out, since it falls within the northern Polar Zone, so unless your ship meets the new Polar Code requirements for passenger vessels, it isn't going there.  Only existing ships that were originally built to A1 or A1+ ice classes are eligible for upgrading to the new Polar Class, and there are only a small number of small expedition type ships that have been built to the new Polar Code.

 

And, as KirkNC says, an itinerary plan is so far down the priority list for the cruise lines, that it really isn't on the table for them.  Plus, the Miquelon Islands, being a French Overseas Territory, are under a travel restriction that requires a "compelling reason for travel" to go there.  Don't think cruising counts as "compelling".

[Mary229]

I think it is time for all of the lines to start up the Caribbean season by starting out of the willing islands, most notably Barbados.  I do believe they will have to also organize charter flights but I am sure there are many willing airlines available for this task.  They need to let the markets work  since the US and Canadian governments are hindering their ability to make a living.  

Edited February 5, 2021 by Mary229

[ATC]

 

chengkp75

 

I'm not familiar with the "northern Polar Code" you quote.

 

How does this fit with HAL scheduling the Nieuw Statendam for Aug 3, 2022 to stop at Greenland,

St Pierre and other places.

Edited February 5, 2021 by ATC

[Empehi]

21 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

I think it is time for all of the lines to start up the Caribbean season by starting out of the willing islands, most notably Barbados.  I do believe they will have to also organize charter flights but I am sure there are many willing airlines available for this task.  They need to let the markets work  since the US and Canadian governments are hindering their ability to make a living.  

 

[Empehi]

I agree Mary. Canada & the CDC do not to seem very interested in the survival of the cruise industry.

Of coarse safety measures must be taken but the CDC seems to want sailings with ZERO possibility of the COVID-19 virus.  Initially the cruise lines may have to consider (as you said) starting and ending (with no US or Canadian ports in between) outside these two countries. There is only so much time the cruise lines can wait before all funding possibilities end and they run out of money. They desperately need cash flow now!

 

Barbados is a start .... perhaps some others.

[Mary229]

15 minutes ago, Empehi said:

Canada & the CDC do not to seem very interested in the survival of the cruise industry.

Of course, the governments are not required to worry about the industry or the people they employ.  Judging by my own travels there are plenty of people to fill those ships.  This forum on CC is not very representative of what I see as I travel about.  

Edited February 5, 2021 by Mary229

[chengkp75]

58 minutes ago, ATC said:

 

chengkp75

 

I'm not familiar with the "northern Polar Code" you quote.

 

How does this fit with HAL scheduling the Nieuw Statendam for Aug 3, 2022 to stop at Greenland,

St Pierre and other places.

The Polar Code is an international convention adopted by the IMO, which sets design, operating, training and planning requirements for any ship that wishes to operate either north of 60*N, or south of 60* South.  The southern areas are completely below 60*S, so no ship that does not meet the Polar Code will be allowed to operate near any land south of Elephant Island (if I remember correctly).  The northern zone is somewhat different, since the Gulf Stream carries warm water up to Iceland and northern Norway.  So, Iceland and the entire coast of Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Russia (as far as Cape Kanin) north of 60*N are exempt from the Polar Code.

 

I would say that the NS is not going to call in Greenland, since she does not meet the PC6 rating needed.

[YXU AC*SE]

Mapping showing demarcs ...       Scott  

 

 

[oakridger]

  YXU AC*XE-  Thanks for the maps!  It makes it much easier to follow the discussions about which ships are able to  do the routes in question.

 

~Nancy

[rkacruiser]

There is going to have to be some major "out of the box" thinking for 2021 for the cruise industry.  

 

NCL may be in the best position if what I think I know about their Pride of America.  American flagged; American crewed; qualified to sail from Seattle on whatever length Alaskan cruise visiting only American ports.  If, of course, NCL would choose to reposition the ship to the West Coast for such itineraries.  

 

On another Forum, someone suggested that United States cruise subsidiary companies could be formed.  Re-registering/re-flagging the ships involved and crewing them with Americans might be a possibility.  It would cost the companies doing such much money, but doing so might allow for revenue producing cruises to sail.  

[chengkp75]

33 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

There is going to have to be some major "out of the box" thinking for 2021 for the cruise industry.  

 

NCL may be in the best position if what I think I know about their Pride of America.  American flagged; American crewed; qualified to sail from Seattle on whatever length Alaskan cruise visiting only American ports.  If, of course, NCL would choose to reposition the ship to the West Coast for such itineraries.  

 

On another Forum, someone suggested that United States cruise subsidiary companies could be formed.  Re-registering/re-flagging the ships involved and crewing them with Americans might be a possibility.  It would cost the companies doing such much money, but doing so might allow for revenue producing cruises to sail.  

Nope.  The exemption granted to give her PVSA allowance stated that she can only sail the Hawaiian islands, or to/from Hawaii to a shipyard, carrying passengers.

 

Reflagging ships to US would not solve anything.  These ships would still not be US built, so they would not be PVSA compliant, and it would require a change to the PVSA to allow them to sail without a foreign port.  Reflagging would cost at least 3 times the operating cost of a foreign flag ship, so they would need to raise fares completely out of sight to cover this, especially with reduced pax loads, and with all the credits from cancelled cruises at old fares.

[rkacruiser]

23 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Nope.  The exemption granted to give her PVSA allowance stated that she can only sail the Hawaiian islands, or to/from Hawaii to a shipyard, carrying passengers.

 

There is another discussion about this taking place on a different Forum that has nothing to do with cruising.

 

According to a Wikipedia article that was posted about the Pride of America, the PSVA allowance was to allow the ship to sail between "any United States ports".  Specific Hawaii ports were not mentioned unless Wikipedia omitted that possible "detail".  If Wikipedia is correct, then there ought to be no issue--from a legal stand point--for cruises of a variety of lengths that originate and end in an American port with no port calls in Canada.  

 

 

[Florida_gal_50]

On 2/5/2021 at 10:24 AM, chengkp75 said:

The Polar Code is an international convention adopted by the IMO, which sets design, operating, training and planning requirements for any ship that wishes to operate either north of 60*N, or south of 60* South.  The southern areas are completely below 60*S, so no ship that does not meet the Polar Code will be allowed to operate near any land south of Elephant Island (if I remember correctly).  The northern zone is somewhat different, since the Gulf Stream carries warm water up to Iceland and northern Norway.  So, Iceland and the entire coast of Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Russia (as far as Cape Kanin) north of 60*N are exempt from the Polar Code.

 

I would say that the NS is not going to call in Greenland, since she does not meet the PC6 rating needed.

The n statendam does have a Greenland cruise for August 2022?  

[cruisemom42]

On 2/5/2021 at 7:59 AM, KirkNC said:

First you have to comply with the CDC order and get each ship certified.  I have seen zero movement in this regard.

 

And then you have to get Iceland and Greenland to open their ports to cruise ships.

[cruisemom42]

On 2/5/2021 at 12:24 PM, chengkp75 said:

The Polar Code is an international convention adopted by the IMO, which sets design, operating, training and planning requirements for any ship that wishes to operate either north of 60*N, or south of 60* South.  The southern areas are completely below 60*S, so no ship that does not meet the Polar Code will be allowed to operate near any land south of Elephant Island (if I remember correctly).  The northern zone is somewhat different, since the Gulf Stream carries warm water up to Iceland and northern Norway.  So, Iceland and the entire coast of Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Russia (as far as Cape Kanin) north of 60*N are exempt from the Polar Code.

 

I would say that the NS is not going to call in Greenland, since she does not meet the PC6 rating needed.

 

As has been discussed regarding the Antarctic cruises, someone has apparently neglected to tell the cruise lines about the Polar Code, if in fact this change is still set to happen...

 

I see calls in Greenland scheduled for summer season 2021 for Oceania, for MSC, for Celebrity, for Princess, even for Viking Ocean....

 

[chengkp75]

10 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

There is another discussion about this taking place on a different Forum that has nothing to do with cruising.

 

According to a Wikipedia article that was posted about the Pride of America, the PSVA allowance was to allow the ship to sail between "any United States ports".  Specific Hawaii ports were not mentioned unless Wikipedia omitted that possible "detail".  If Wikipedia is correct, then there ought to be no issue--from a legal stand point--for cruises of a variety of lengths that originate and end in an American port with no port calls in Canada.  

 

 

Wikipedia is wrong, as it frequently is.  It also says that US registry allows it to sail "solely between US ports", which is not correct.  Foreign built ships can be US registered (US flag), and yet not be Jones Act or PVSA compliant, and therefore banned from domestic trade.  I've worked several ships that were US flag, but were not Jones Act compliant, having been built overseas, and we could take cargo from US ports to overseas, and from overseas to US ports, but could not load cargo in one US port and discharge it in another US port.

 

Here is a quote from a GAO report (GAO-04-421) that studied the effects of exemptions to the PVSA, with regards to NCL:

 

"However, the exemption limits the markets these ships may serve. NCL is required to keep the ships in “regular service” in Hawaii and is restricted from using the exempted vessels for transporting passengers to ports in the Caribbean, the Gulf of Mexico, or Alaska."

 

The actual exemption is in Public Law 108-7, somewhere in the 544 pages, and I have found, in the past, (too lazy to read the whole omnibus funding bill) the exact section that spells out the limitations on the POA service.  I worked for 4 years on one of the ships granted exemptions to the PVSA for NCL (Pride of Aloha), and know the terms of the exemption.

[rkacruiser]

9 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

The actual exemption is in Public Law 108-7, somewhere in the 544 pages, and I have found, in the past, (too lazy to read the whole omnibus funding bill) the exact section that spells out the limitations on the POA service.

 

This has been discussed on another transportation Forum and someone did find this limitation on POA service.  I appreciate reading your response to my post.

 

But, my idea/suggestion regarding Alaskan service for POA obviously "won't float".  

 

 

[wolfie11]

On 2/5/2021 at 10:32 AM, chengkp75 said:

Count Greenland out, since it falls within the northern Polar Zone, so unless your ship meets the new Polar Code requirements for passenger vessels, it isn't going there.  Only existing ships that were originally built to A1 or A1+ ice classes are eligible for upgrading to the new Polar Class, and there are only a small number of small expedition type ships that have been built to the new Polar Code.

 

And, as KirkNC says, an itinerary plan is so far down the priority list for the cruise lines, that it really isn't on the table for them.  Plus, the Miquelon Islands, being a French Overseas Territory, are under a travel restriction that requires a "compelling reason for travel" to go there.  Don't think cruising counts as "compelling".

chengkp,

My understanding is that a ship can also receive a "Category C" certification that would allow her to sail in Polar waters, but would be restricted to open water or less ice than Category B ships, which are restricted to "at least thin first-year ice, which may include old ice inclusions."  Category C ships would require no modifications but would be subject to all other Polar Code regulations for training, safety equipment, etc.

Edited February 8, 2021 by wolfie11

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, wolfie11 said:

chengkp,

My understanding is that a ship can also receive a "Category C" certification that would allow her to sail in Polar waters, but would be restricted to open water or less ice than Category B ships, which are restricted to "at least thin first-year ice, which may include old ice inclusions."  Category C ships would require no modifications but would be subject to all other Polar Code regulations for training, safety equipment, etc.

My understanding is that a ship's IACS "ice class" is used to determine the "category" of Polar Code that the vessel is entitled to.  IACS says that only ships that are currently classed as "1A" or "1A+" are possible to upgrade to Polar Class.  Yes, I found that PC6 (passenger ship required class) must be built to Baltic Ice Class 1A, so a ship that does not meet this Ice Class now, will not get a Polar Code rating.

 

The description use quote is the description for PC6, regardless of Category.  I may be wrong, but I believe the "no structural modifications" for Category C, refers to the IOPP Certificate (International Oil Pollution Prevention) with regards to fuel/oil tank protection.

[AtlantaCruiser72]

@chengkp75  I respect your knowledge fully, but obviously multiple cruise lines feel they meet the appropriate criteria to sail large oceangoing vessels to both Greenland and the Antarctic Peninsula.  The number of scheduled calls to Greenland is on the rise for 2022 and 2023.  If ALL of these cruise lines are selling these cruises with ZERO intent of actually stopping there due to not being allowed under Polar Ice classifications I would think there could be class action lawsuit for fraud.  

 

Somehow, somewhere I think an exemption is being allowed.