Alaska 2021–CCL not giving up yet

[PelicanBill]

18 hours ago, Cafedumonde said:

Well, there are lots of other laws that are being overturned with executive order right now.

Sorry but I beg to differ.

Executive orders cannot override a law, except where that law as a provision, such as suspension of Habeus Corpus in event of rebellion or invasion. Presidents do try to skirt or stretch the boundaries.  If an Executive Order oversteps a law, it is typically challenged and struck down if the law is clear enough.

If there is no law related, Congress can overturn an Executive Order with a new law, but likely has to override a veto to do so.  The only other thing I can think of is an EO that oversteps a law and nobody chooses to challenge it in court.  I can't recall that happening but perhaps it has.

[ULCajunCruiser]

2 hours ago, TomCruise48 said:

Jones Act and PVSA are not the same thing.  Jones act applies to transport of cargo, while PVSA is concerned with  transport of passengers.  Chengkp75 has explained the difference in much more detail many times on these boards.

Not to speak for dbrucern, but I took his statement to mean they did this, so they might be able to do that.   I don't think he was comparing the two.  I didn't take it as a because these are so close to the same thing and they did it for one ...

[TomCruise48]

2 hours ago, ULCajunCruiser said:

Not to speak for dbrucern, but I took his statement to mean they did this, so they might be able to do that.   I don't think he was comparing the two.  I didn't take it as a because these are so close to the same thing and they did it for one ...

You could very well be correct.  I may have taken things too literally.  In any event, suspending an act to allow a foreign flagged ship to deliver much needed relief supplies (cargo) to a US Territory is different from suspending an act to transport passengers for leisure travel.

 

Unfortunately, John Heald, Carnival's Brand Ambassador, keeps talking about the Jones Act applying to Alaska cruises on his FB page when it is actually the PVSA.  You would think that a person this high up in the organization with over 30 year's experience would know better.

[Seacruise]

So lets throw another wrinkle into the mix. If Carnival is not giving up then why did they permanently release 27 workers from the White Pass Railroad last week when the cruise season is not far off.

[skridge]

22 hours ago, Elaine5715 said:

Every day is someone's last payment

Yet Carnival continues to wait until after people send in final payments before canceling the sailings.  Coincidence, I think not.

[Elaine5715]

5 minutes ago, skridge said:

Yet Carnival continues to wait until after people send in final payments before canceling the sailings.  Coincidence, I think not.

That makes no sense.  There are/were cruises scheduled to leave every day.  Carnival is not singling out people, waiting for final payment and then springing into action.  They have very little control over when they will resume and of course, hope they can start soon

[mexicobob]

On 2/10/2021 at 12:53 PM, Saint Greg said:

 

Even if they were able to get around the Canada thing they'd have to get Seattle onboard (no pun intended) with being one of the first ports to allow cruising. I don't think that's happening this year...not from the west coast....But I do think Carnival wants to delay cancellations as long as possible.

I think most people are focusing on the "Canada" thing but forget that Seattle or San Francisco will not be allowing cruise ships for a long time to anywhere either. 

[skridge]

1 minute ago, Elaine5715 said:

That makes no sense.  There are/were cruises scheduled to leave every day.  Carnival is not singling out people, waiting for final payment and then springing into action.  They have very little control over when they will resume and of course, hope they can start soon

I don't know how to say it any more clearly.  They have been continuously waiting until the last minute to cancel cruises so they can rake in final payments.  They are a desperate company staying afloat on the backs of the interest free loans of their best customers.

[Circlt]

3 hours ago, Seacruise said:

So lets throw another wrinkle into the mix. If Carnival is not giving up then why did they permanently release 27 workers from the White Pass Railroad last week when the cruise season is not far off.

I think they know the most likely outcome.  Maybe I should have titled my post, “Delaying the Inevitable”.  I still believe they are confident it’s unlikely there will be a 2021 Alaska season, but are using the opportunity to delay all 2021 Alaska refunds as long as possible.  It’s a lifeline for them.  They are currently jumping ice floe to ice floe with no dry land in sight.  What they are doing makes business sense.

[BlerkOne]

It is as simple as Congress issuing temporary waivers to cruise lines and leave the rest of the protectionist law in place. Small American flagged cruise lines will be cruising Alaska this year and they have stated they don't object to waivers for the big boys. Alaska was hurting last year and will be again this year if nothing is done.

[Cafedumonde]

12 hours ago, PelicanBill said:

Sorry but I beg to differ.

Executive orders cannot override a law, except where that law as a provision, such as suspension of Habeus Corpus in event of rebellion or invasion. Presidents do try to skirt or stretch the boundaries.  If an Executive Order oversteps a law, it is typically challenged and struck down if the law is clear enough.

If there is no law related, Congress can overturn an Executive Order with a new law, but likely has to override a veto to do so.  The only other thing I can think of is an EO that oversteps a law and nobody chooses to challenge it in court.  I can't recall that happening but perhaps it has.

Sorry but you are wrong on this.  

[PelicanBill]

9 hours ago, Cafedumonde said:

Sorry but you are wrong on this.  

Give me an example?

https://www.federalregister.gov/presidential-documents/executive-orders

 

Here is Wikipedia on EOs. Read the Legal Conflicts section.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_order 

 

[CheckersMidwest]

Hmmmm. All this talk about Carnival waiting until final payment to cancel sailings & hang onto money made me realize when I considered cancelling the cruise altogether.....my pvp talked me out of it. I had already paid in full. He said we should wait and see. (I know he'd lose money if I cancel)  I had him refund my full payment & keep the deposit (obviously) until they cancel. It makes sense now.

[BlerkOne]

On 2/11/2021 at 9:22 AM, TomCruise48 said:

Jones Act and PVSA are not the same thing.  Jones act applies to transport of cargo, while PVSA is concerned with  transport of passengers.  Chengkp75 has explained the difference in much more detail many times on these boards.

Correct, but Puerto Rico already has an exemption from PVSA until such time as there is ferry service between the mainland and PR. The Jones Act exemption was for hurricane relief supplies, but there is no reason Congress can't do the same for PVSA and Alaska until Canada relaxes restrictions.

[chengkp75]

On 2/11/2021 at 9:36 AM, dbrucern said:

Actually the Jones Act was temporarily over ridden so ships could help out PR when hit with the hurricane so hopefully something will be worked out for Alaska Cruises

And both the Jones Act and the PVSA waivers are only granted on a "national security" basis, and if you look at the CBP rulings in waiver applications, you find that "commercial expediency" is not considered a valid reason to grant a waiver.  People were dying in Puerto Rico, and in fact only two foreign ships made runs to Puerto Rico under the waivers.  I don't see people dying due to lack of food or power in Alaska.   If all this talk of waiving the PVSA is really about the Alaskan economy, then give them a targeted stimulus, which accomplishes the same thing, but unfortunately does not address the desire of people to have the vacation of their choice.

[drvmywifecrzy]

NCL has removed Alaska from its 2021 schedule today.

[Suncoastsailors]

On 2/10/2021 at 12:18 PM, jsglow said:

Well, that's a possible compromise but not how the law currently stands.

Only problem with this is if someone onboard has severe illness and needs to go to hospital. Wouldn't the port need to offer care. This is over course a remote possibility but would be the argument of the port country government.

[mpdog42]

On 2/11/2021 at 3:03 PM, TomCruise48 said:

You could very well be correct.  I may have taken things too literally.  In any event, suspending an act to allow a foreign flagged ship to deliver much needed relief supplies (cargo) to a US Territory is different from suspending an act to transport passengers for leisure travel.

 

Unfortunately, John Heald, Carnival's Brand Ambassador, keeps talking about the Jones Act applying to Alaska cruises on his FB page when it is actually the PVSA.  You would think that a person this high up in the organization with over 30 year's experience would know better.

Many people think John's time has passed, Possibly Carnival with its Family First policy should obtain a different Brand Ambassador...one that fits in with 2021....

[mpdog42]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

And both the Jones Act and the PVSA waivers are only granted on a "national security" basis, and if you look at the CBP rulings in waiver applications, you find that "commercial expediency" is not considered a valid reason to grant a waiver.  People were dying in Puerto Rico, and in fact only two foreign ships made runs to Puerto Rico under the waivers.  I don't see people dying due to lack of food or power in Alaska.   If all this talk of waiving the PVSA is really about the Alaskan economy, then give them a targeted stimulus, which accomplishes the same thing, but unfortunately does not address the desire of people to have the vacation of their choice.

Mic Drop.....

[BlerkOne]

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

And both the Jones Act and the PVSA waivers are only granted on a "national security" basis, and if you look at the CBP rulings in waiver applications, you find that "commercial expediency" is not considered a valid reason to grant a waiver.  People were dying in Puerto Rico, and in fact only two foreign ships made runs to Puerto Rico under the waivers.  I don't see people dying due to lack of food or power in Alaska.   If all this talk of waiving the PVSA is really about the Alaskan economy, then give them a targeted stimulus, which accomplishes the same thing, but unfortunately does not address the desire of people to have the vacation of their choice.

Never say never. NCLA enjoys a monopoly in Hawaii thanks to waivers that have nothing to do with national security. And besides there is nothing to prevent Congress from starting a new precedent. It is easy to say give Alaska a handout, but the other shoe is it runs up the debt when it is not necessary.

 

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GAOREPORTS-GAO-04-421/html/GAOREPORTS-GAO-04-421.htm

[gtalum]

18 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

Never say never. NCLA enjoys a monopoly in Hawaii thanks to waivers that have nothing to do with national security. And besides there is nothing to prevent Congress from starting a new precedent. It is easy to say give Alaska a handout, but the other shoe is it runs up the debt when it is not necessary.

 

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GAOREPORTS-GAO-04-421/html/GAOREPORTS-GAO-04-421.htm

 

That exemption is long gone.  NCL's remaining ship in Hawaii is American registered and crewed.

 

That exemption only exempted the requirement for the ships to be American built. They still required American registration and crew.  

 

The exemption was legislatively granted. IOW congress passed a law.

 

Congress can grant an exemption now, as well, but are unlikely to.  The president cannot grant an exemption by executive order.

Edited February 13, 2021 by gtalum

[chengkp75]

2 minutes ago, gtalum said:

NCL's remaining ship in Hawaii is American registered and crewed.

All three ships were US flag and US crewed.

[gtalum]

Just now, chengkp75 said:

All three ships were US flag and US crewed.

 

POA was partially built in America.

[chengkp75]

Just now, gtalum said:

 

POA was partially built in America.

Yes, but it is considered just the same as the totally foreign built Aloha and Hawaii, with respect to a waiver of the PVSA.  The waiver still exists, as long as POA sails under US flag.

[gtalum]

3 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Yes, but it is considered just the same as the totally foreign built Aloha and Hawaii, with respect to a waiver of the PVSA.  The waiver still exists, as long as POA sails under US flag.

 

Then I apologize for getting that wrong.  

 

At any rate, I doubt any of the big cruise lines are willing to reflag their ships to the US and hire American crews to save their Alaska seasons.