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Will you cruise if vaccination is mandatory in order to board?


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1 hour ago, wowzz said:

I'm not sure how an individual, with no medical or epidimiological knowledge can suddenly decide that they are "personally satisfied " that a vaccine is safe .

Nothing to with this but for over four years I've frequently asked for "verifiable and reputable citations" to support one's claim. I think I got that one time.

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22 minutes ago, broberts said:

 

A false dichotomy.

Not a perfect one - but valid;  you are either willing or unwilling to accept the recommendations of the overwhelming mass of knowledgeable and responsible experts to receive the vaccine —- and you are either pregnant or not.    The dichotomy is close to spot on.

 

People with pretensions of open-mindedness like to complain about being categorized or “name calling” -    the fact remains: a spade is a spade, and calling a spade a spade is not being judgmental, it is simply being sensible.

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1 hour ago, navybankerteacher said:

Not a perfect one - but valid;  you are either willing or unwilling to accept the recommendations of the overwhelming mass of knowledgeable and responsible experts to receive the vaccine —- and you are either pregnant or not.    The dichotomy is close to spot on.

 

People with pretensions of open-mindedness like to complain about being categorized or “name calling” -    the fact remains: a spade is a spade, and calling a spade a spade is not being judgmental, it is simply being sensible.

 

There is no such thing as an imperfect dichotomy. When there are more than two choices, insisting that there are only two is a falsehood.

 

It is no great stretch to think of more than one reason someone might not want a vaccination that does not include being against vaccinations in general.

 

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7 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Identifying someone who assumes an anti-vaxxing stance as an anit-vaxxer is simply a matter of identifying his stance, it is not "name-calling".    Would you prefer a paragraph to the appropriate one word term?  

 

6 hours ago, clo said:

Color me confused. If you're against vaccinations, doesn't that make you an "anti-vaxxer"? How is that name calling?

 

It seems both of you are out of touch. There are new terms: "vaccine cautious" or "vaccine hesitant" 😜. This article has an interesting perspective on it :

Vaccine hesitancy is not new

 

5 hours ago, Daniel A said:

I am very much in favor of taking the Covid vaccine (just not the Russian or Chinese products)

 

Russia's Sputnik V vaccine has 92% efficacy in trial

 

China COVID vaccine reports mixed results

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8 hours ago, broberts said:

 

There is no such thing as an imperfect dichotomy....

 

 

10 hours ago, broberts said:

 

A false dichotomy.

I think you should think about the meanings of the words you use.  Doesn't a "false dichotomy" suffer from some sort of imperfection?

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16 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

 

I think you should think about the meanings of the words you use.  Doesn't a "false dichotomy" suffer from some sort of imperfection?

 

No, a false dichotomy is not a dichotomy. When purposely used to force a choice it is a lie.

 

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6 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

 

It seems both of you are out of touch. There are new terms: "vaccine cautious" or "vaccine hesitant" 😜. This article has an interesting perspective on it :

Vaccine hesitancy is not new

 

 

Russia's Sputnik V vaccine has 92% efficacy in trial

 

China COVID vaccine reports mixed results

Of course there are varieties in almost any classification of reason for refusing vaccination: be it religious, animal rights based, reluctance to try something new, simple mistrust —— but the bottom line is if someone is refusing to get a vaccine he is anti-vaccine - not necessarily a permananent condition, but certainly the case as long as his refusal continues. 

 

Of course, in this era of political correctness I suppose it is more polite to use a euphemism like “vaccine cautious” or “vaccine hesitant”.   

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5 minutes ago, broberts said:

 

No, a false dichotomy is not a dichotomy. When purposely used to force a choice it is a lie.

 

Double talk- 

 

If there is no such thing as a false dichotomy,  why did you attempt to identify a statement as a false dichotomy.

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While some like to argue just to argue, global deaths from COV-Sars-2 is at 2,465,561 and in the US we have exceeded 500,000!  Global cases have exceed 110,000,000 infections.  This is a serious health issue.  Personally know people who have been hospitalized and died from this virus and its mutations.  We - us humans - have to take this seriously or it will seriously cull humanity.  And maybe cull many of Terra's animals.  The Wild Animal Park of the San Diego zoo has isolated its gorillas after several caught the virus from one of their keepers in January.  The park had been closed since early December and handlers wore masks and other PPE.  The infected gorillas, social animals like humans, are doing okay and remain isolated from tother animals.  

 

Use PPE, social distance, wash/disinfect hands frequently - and get you COVID-19 prophylaxis.  We have.

Edited by Ride-The-Waves
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41 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

Double talk- 

 

If there is no such thing as a false dichotomy,  why did you attempt to identify a statement as a false dichotomy.

 

Not sure why you are playing this game. Do you get some enjoyment trying to bait people into pointless discussions?

Edited by broberts
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13 hours ago, wowzz said:

I'm not sure how an individual, with no medical or epidimiological knowledge can suddenly decide that they are "personally satisfied " that a vaccine is safe . Have they been studying medical peer reviews, attending medical seminars, spending hours examining genome sequencing,  or have they gone down to  the local pub, had a few beers with the locals and decided that the vaccine seems OK? 

You make an excellent point.  I don't want to assume here, but I am inferring from your post that you sat down and had been studying medical peer reviews, attending medical seminars, and spending hours examining genome sequencing in order to arrive at the conclusion that you were "personally satisfied" the vaccine is safe.

 

Dismissing the local pub option (one that isn't a bad option for other reasons 🙂)  Where did you get your data from?  I suspect It may have been from the press and media.  Last I heard, confidence in the press and media are at an all time low and for good reason, I believe.

Edited by Daniel A
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13 hours ago, Daniel A said:

 

I am very much in favor of taking the Covid vaccine (just not the Russian or Chinese products)

 

11 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Not a perfect one - but valid;  you are either willing or unwilling to accept the recommendations of the overwhelming mass of knowledgeable and responsible experts to receive the vaccine —- and you are either pregnant or not.    The dichotomy is close to spot on.

 

8 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

As I wrote earlier, I would not take the Sinovac or Sputnik vaccines on a bet.  I'm not too keen on the J&J one and I would want either the Pfizer or Moderna as soon as possible.  So which is it?  Am I pregnant or not?  It's just not a purely black and white issue.

 

That said, I won't get on any cruise ships in the near future unless all on board are vaccinated.  Those who voluntarily choose to not be vaccinated will just have to take their chances against getting sick and will need to wait until the pandemic has ended before cruising.  This is the same thing as smoking cigarettes.  I don't think anybody on this planet thinks smoking cigarettes doesn't have adverse health effects but it's a personal choice whether or not to smoke.  But the smoker isn't going to be on any airplanes or in any movie theaters if they insist on having a smoke whenever they want.  It's all personal choices.  If you're willing to make the choice of giving up smoking for several hours, welcome to my aircraft!  If you're not willing to give up smoking for that long, enjoy your drive to Hawaii from New York...🥴 

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28 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

Dismissing the local pub option (one that isn't a bad option for other reasons 🙂)  Where did you get your data from?  I suspect It may have been from the press and media.  Last I heard, confidence in the press and media are at an all time low and for good reason, I believe.

I get my information from listening to the medical experts who have done the research and read the peer reviews on my behalf. Throughout the world, the experts state that the vaccines currently available are safe. I am still waiting for those that are against vaccines to supply verifiable data to support their anti vaccine stance.

Anyway, I've had my Astra Zeneca vaccine, no adverse effects whatsoever, no fits, no fainting, no paralysis - in fact exactly the same as millions of others who have had the same vaccine.

Edited by wowzz
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4 minutes ago, wowzz said:

I get my information from listening to the medical experts who have done the research and read the peer reviews on my behalf. Throughout the world, the experts state that the vaccines currently available are safe. I am still waiting for those that are against vaccines to supply verifiable data to support their anti vaccine stance.

Anyway, I've had my Astra Zeneca vaccine, no adverse effects whatsoever, no fits, no fainting, no paralysis - in fact exactly the same as millions of others who have had the same vaccine.

 

Name calling is not helpful. This is a nuanced issue and repeated attempts to force those that have a preference (or religious belief, or medical reason, etc.) not to be vaccinated at this time to justify their preference in a manner you deem appropriate is unreasonable.

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1 minute ago, broberts said:

 

Name calling is not helpful. This is a nuanced issue and repeated attempts to force those that have a preference (or religious belief, or medical reason, etc.) not to be vaccinated at this time to justify their preference in a manner you deem appropriate is unreasonable.

Perhaps you can show me where I have indulged in "name calling" ?

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1 hour ago, broberts said:

 

Not sure why you are playing this game. Do you get some enjoyment trying to bait people into pointless discussions?

Excuse me, but you were the one introducing sophistry with references to false dichotomies.  I certainly see no point in continuing.

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Wow!!!  I feel like I am in college listening to a couple of philosophy students trying to impress the professor!

 

I guess the self-isolation " sourdough starter" syndrome passed you by!  Try taking a breath and maybe talk about the weather!!!

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16 hours ago, wowzz said:

Have you ever heard of  Schrodinger's Cat. Probably not, given your recent replies.  - I'll give you a few hours to Google it and to try and come up with a rational response!

Schrodinger's Cat continues to be discussed/debated. Here is a recent article on the subject.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/this-twist-on-schroedingers-cat-paradox-has-major-implications-for-quantum-theory/

 

If anything, Schrodinger's Cat has taught me that nothing is settled (except death and taxes 🤣) Here's a book I liked on the subject. 

IMG_2823.JPG

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1 hour ago, broberts said:

 

Name calling is not helpful. This is a nuanced issue and repeated attempts to force those that have a preference (or religious belief, or medical reason, etc.) not to be vaccinated at this time to justify their preference in a manner you deem appropriate is unreasonable.

I don't have a problem with referring to somebody who will not take any vaccine for anything at any time ever, an 'antivaxxer.'  But it's still their choice - I just don't want to be on the same cruise ship with them. I don't consider somebody who evaluates which vaccines they want and which ones they don't want to be an antivaxxer.  They may be an anti Covid-19 vaxxer but I'm not too interested in getting that far into the weeds.  I have a friend who doesn't trust vaccines.  He has suffered from shingles on five separate occasions but still refuses to take the vaccine.  I don't understand it, but it's still his choice to suffer.

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Perhaps the cat can lead us from medical debates to a series of quantum discussions.  Perhaps we'll get to string theory and someone can apply it to boarding time delays or some other aspect of cruising.

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2 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

While some like to argue just to argue, global deaths from COV-Sars-2 is at 2,465,561 and in the US we have exceeded 500,000!  Global cases have exceed 110,000,000 infections.  This is a serious health issue.  Personally know people who have been hospitalized and died from this virus and its mutations.  We - us humans - have to take this seriously or it will seriously cull humanity.  And maybe cull many of Terra's animals.  The Wild Animal Park of the San Diego zoo has isolated its gorillas after several caught the virus from one of their keepers in January.  The park had been closed since early December and handlers wore masks and other PPE.  The infected gorillas, social animals like humans, are doing okay and remain isolated from tother animals.  

 

Use PPE, social distance, wash/disinfect hands frequently - and get you COVID-19 prophylaxis.  We have.

Do the isolated gorillas wash their hands for at least 20 seconds? Do they wear masks? At least I'm sure they do not worry whether a dichotomy is true or false.

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2 hours ago, gmjc2 said:

Wow!!!  I feel like I am in college listening to a couple of philosophy students trying to impress the professor!

 

I guess the self-isolation " sourdough starter" syndrome passed you by!  Try taking a breath and maybe talk about the weather!!!

🤣 I for got what this thread was about after page four.

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