The Debbie Downers have been right all along

[SJSULIBRARIAN]

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"What is happening in the US today is interesting.  The public "gets it" and is sick and tired of a CDC (and other government officials) who issue contradictory statements, lies, deceptive policies, etc.  So the people are opening up the country despite the authorities."

 

Hank,  An excellent post from you especially the above statement.  I have long felt that once we the public understand what is going on, most will do the right thing. 

 

As to cruising, speaking for myself, I am not ready but I know many are, and I am hopeful the offshore cruises starting soon will be examples for how it can work and perhaps soon cruises out of US ports will begin.

 

 

[tosteve1]

Dr. Walensky’s “impending doom” comment was embarrassing. Another example of emotion and spin overruling “science”. The regional variations in Covid incidence and mortality are very hard to explain but some authorities keep trying to give simple explanations anyway. “Hygiene theater “ and  confirmation  bias rules the day. 

[idiebabe]

2 hours ago, whogo said:

The problem is there are lying unvaccinated SOB's that will board the ship.

 

Cruises can restart tomorrow for all I care. I live 1,000 miles from the ocean, a sick ship, if such there be, will not be dumping patients in hospitals near me. If my prediction of 2,000,000 covid deaths in the USA by October 15, 2021 is going to prove accurate, we need to average about 7,500 deaths per day. Something has to go dreadfully wrong.

You are definitely in the running for the Top Five Debbie Downers Award (and you have some pretty stiff competition here)!  Congrats!   

[fatcat04]

Hank @HlitnerI think you hit on the general feeling I am observing well, that is outside of a few internet locations who seem deadset on keeping everything shut down indefinitely. The all stick and no carrot method is not working. People long for freedom and with that comes personal responsibility. Now that we have an effective tool to protect the vulnerable and aged and a much better grasp on how this disease works, adding more carrot and less stick to the mix might produce more jabs in arms, might produce a more positive attitude toward necessary thoughtful precautions, might produce a happier population more willing to work within a system they see as being run by honest to goodness humans who can relate to everyday people, not elitist DC bureaucrats who write authoritarian dictats they themselves are for all intents and purposes exempt from. Less theatre and more real life solutions people can look at and say "That makes sense." Anyone who has ever been a parent knows the fine art of negotiating and sweetening the pot (the spoonful of sugar in the medicine) often produces better and more long lasting results. 

[KroozNut]

1 hour ago, KirkNC said:

Probably a little too early to declare victory in Texas.

 

Why?

[ontheweb]

38 minutes ago, KroozNut said:

 

Why?

Because other times that victory has seemed to be imminent, premature loosening of restrictions has led to surges.

[idiebabe]

54 minutes ago, fatcat04 said:

Hank @HlitnerI think you hit on the general feeling I am observing well, that is outside of a few internet locations who seem deadset on keeping everything shut down indefinitely. The all stick and no carrot method is not working. People long for freedom and with that comes personal responsibility. Now that we have an effective tool to protect the vulnerable and aged and a much better grasp on how this disease works, adding more carrot and less stick to the mix might produce more jabs in arms, might produce a more positive attitude toward necessary thoughtful precautions, might produce a happier population more willing to work within a system they see as being run by honest to goodness humans who can relate to everyday people, not elitist DC bureaucrats who write authoritarian dictats they themselves are for all intents and purposes exempt from. Less theatre and more real life solutions people can look at and say "That makes sense." Anyone who has ever been a parent knows the fine art of negotiating and sweetening the pot (the spoonful of sugar in the medicine) often produces better and more long lasting results. 

Amen!  You nailed it!

 

[Hlitner]

2 hours ago, KirkNC said:

Probably a little too early to declare victory in Texas.

Au contraire!  I do not think anyone is "declaring victory" but simply using real numbers as opposed to agenda driven rhetoric.   But I will go on record (so you can possibly shout out a "I told you so") that both Texas and Florida (and many other States) have made terrific decisions on reopening.  The "Neanderthal" decisions were made by those Governor's that have maintained severe economic and school restrictions far too long.   Perhaps Texas will experience a small surge as younger folks flex their freedom and get COVID, but you are going to see a rapid decrease in all COVID numbers (especially death and serious cases) over the next few months.  Why?  One word....vaccines.  

 

Some will continue to argue that shutdowns need to continue for a few more months (some politicians would like to keep restrictions forever) but that ignores the incredible cost in terms of economics and mental health that result from every additional day of restrictions.  What Governor Abbott did was to simply lift State mandated restrictions and leave it to local officials to manage the situation based on what they see on the ground.    I should add that some States such as Florida have managed to keep much of their economy open during much of the pandemic, nearly all their schools operating, and not have numbers any worse then comparable States who kept using draconian measures.  

 

The time for draconian measures in the US is over.  We need to think in terms of opening up....not shutting down!  Those that are concerned about COVID can get vaccinated.  Those that choose not to get vaccinated will take their chances but should not whine if they get seriously ill, end up with life long COVID complications, or find themselves dying along in a hospital bed.  It will have been their choice just like smokers make a choice to die early and deal with related morbidities.   In our country we believe in personal freedom and responsibility and now that the pharm companies have given us an easy way out of COVID it is up to the People.

 

The cruise industry needs to reopen tomorrow, not next month or next year.  We now know how to minimize COVID risk on ships or anywhere else.  There is no more justification for jerking around the cruise industry now then there would be during any flu season.

 

Hank

 

[KirkNC]

2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Au contraire!  I do not think anyone is "declaring victory" but simply using real numbers as opposed to agenda driven rhetoric.   But I will go on record (so you can possibly shout out a "I told you so") that both Texas and Florida (and many other States) have made terrific decisions on reopening.  The "Neanderthal" decisions were made by those Governor's that have maintained severe economic and school restrictions far too long.   Perhaps Texas will experience a small surge as younger folks flex their freedom and get COVID, but you are going to see a rapid decrease in all COVID numbers (especially death and serious cases) over the next few months.  Why?  One word....vaccines.  

 

Some will continue to argue that shutdowns need to continue for a few more months (some politicians would like to keep restrictions forever) but that ignores the incredible cost in terms of economics and mental health that result from every additional day of restrictions.  What Governor Abbott did was to simply lift State mandated restrictions and leave it to local officials to manage the situation based on what they see on the ground.    I should add that some States such as Florida have managed to keep much of their economy open during much of the pandemic, nearly all their schools operating, and not have numbers any worse then comparable States who kept using draconian measures.  

 

The time for draconian measures in the US is over.  We need to think in terms of opening up....not shutting down!  Those that are concerned about COVID can get vaccinated.  Those that choose not to get vaccinated will take their chances but should not whine if they get seriously ill, end up with life long COVID complications, or find themselves dying along in a hospital bed.  It will have been their choice just like smokers make a choice to die early and deal with related morbidities.   In our country we believe in personal freedom and responsibility and now that the pharm companies have given us an easy way out of COVID it is up to the People.

 

The cruise industry needs to reopen tomorrow, not next month or next year.  We now know how to minimize COVID risk on ships or anywhere else.  There is no more justification for jerking around the cruise industry now then there would be during any flu season.

 

Hank

 

The problem is that the two states in question are not following your advice and getting vaccinated.  Florida is 39th and Texas is 43rd in fully vaccinated as a percentage of population.

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/01/28/960901166/how-is-the-covid-19-vaccination-campaign-going-in-your-state
 

I agree that we need to open up but we need to do it AFTER we get most people vaccinated.  We just need another 6-8 weeks and it will be much safer. 

Edited April 7, 2021 by KirkNC

[idiebabe]

@Hlitner  Again a brilliant, common sense Post!  

 

 

 

 

[Hlitner]

2 hours ago, KirkNC said:

The problem is that the two states in question are not following your advice and getting vaccinated.  Florida is 39th and Texas is 43rd in fully vaccinated as a percentage of population.

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/01/28/960901166/how-is-the-covid-19-vaccination-campaign-going-in-your-state
 

I agree that we need to open up but we need to do it AFTER we get most people vaccinated.  We just need another 6-8 weeks and it will be much safer. 

The problem with your approach is that after 6-8 weeks some folks (maybe even you) will say "we just need another 6-8 weeks after which another and another.  And soon we have things shut down for over 1 year!  Nah.  That can't happen in America.    And children losing an entire year of education because their schools are only closed for a few weeks, and then a few more weeks, and then a few months, etc. etc.  Nah.  That can't happen here in America.  And a cruise industry that has been shut down for over a year by some unelected bureaucrats in a small Federal agency....nah that can't happen in America.  And a Federal government that says that when I, a US Citizen, need to get a negative COVID test to come back to my own country, but illegals who simply walk across the border do not need any test....nah that can't happen in America.  And a government that supports keeping the cruise industry closed despite the industry willing to implement lots of COVID mitigation measures, but insists on opening the border to anyone without any testing or Covid mitigation....nah that can't happen in America.  

 

Do I sound angry?  You bet I am angry. 

 

By the way, with our new CDC Director talking about a feeling of "impending doom" here is an interesting data table"

COVID-19 Hospitalizations (cdc.gov)

 

Some of us remember that when all this COVID stuff started it was about flattening the curve so hospitals were not overwhelmed and reducing the death rate and serious cases.  All those objectives have been achieved!  

 

Hank

[Mary229]

The problem with stating a state is not up to scuff with vaccines is this:  here in Texas at least every weekly allocation has been administered by end of week.  So you can't lay that at the feet of the governors.  They are dealing with what is delivered.  Texas puts on the vaccine dashboard exactly that information, allocations, deliveries, administrations.  If you look after the Friday update you see they have administered all or nearly all.  

 

As I said earlier Texas and Florida are also decreasing their hospitalizations because we live less densely and we have had sunshine and warm weather for a while and are able to live healthfully by enjoying outdoor activity. Never underestimate the power of the sun and fresh air

Edited April 7, 2021 by Mary229

[KirkNC]

15 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

The problem with your approach is that after 6-8 weeks some folks (maybe even you) will say "we just need another 6-8 weeks after which another and another.  And soon we have things shut down for over 1 year!  Nah.  That can't happen in America.    And children losing an entire year of education because their schools are only closed for a few weeks, and then a few more weeks, and then a few months, etc. etc.  Nah.  That can't happen here in America.  And a cruise industry that has been shut down for over a year by some unelected bureaucrats in a small Federal agency....nah that can't happen in America.  And a Federal government that says that when I, a US Citizen, need to get a negative COVID test to come back to my own country, but illegals who simply walk across the border do not need any test....nah that can't happen in America.  And a government that supports keeping the cruise industry closed despite the industry willing to implement lots of COVID mitigation measures, but insists on opening the border to anyone without any testing or Covid mitigation....nah that can't happen in America.  

 

Do I sound angry?  You bet I am angry. 

 

Hank

No, while some may do what you say, I don’t think I will.  Once we get fully vaccinated this Friday (we being DW and I), our behaviors will change.  We will actually go sit down in a restaurant for the first time in a year.  Already know where and what I will order😎.  Once others get vaccinated they should do the same.  The problem right now is many are adjusting their behavior prior to vaccination. 
 

I get the whole government intervention thing but in this rare case, a once in a lifetime pandemic, the government has to help protect Americans from there own stupidity.  Sometimes we get so wrapped up in our individual freedoms at the great expense to the collective good.  Neither is 100% right or wrong, the best behavior is somewhere in the middle.

Edited April 7, 2021 by KirkNC

[lstrong]

Hank, I’m angry as well!  Laurie

[Mary229]

5 hours ago, fatcat04 said:

Hank @HlitnerI think you hit on the general feeling I am observing well, that is outside of a few internet locations who seem deadset on keeping everything shut down indefinitely. The all stick and no carrot method is not working. People long for freedom and with that comes personal responsibility. Now that we have an effective tool to protect the vulnerable and aged and a much better grasp on how this disease works, adding more carrot and less stick to the mix might produce more jabs in arms, might produce a more positive attitude toward necessary thoughtful precautions, might produce a happier population more willing to work within a system they see as being run by honest to goodness humans who can relate to everyday people, not elitist DC bureaucrats who write authoritarian dictats they themselves are for all intents and purposes exempt from. Less theatre and more real life solutions people can look at and say "That makes sense." Anyone who has ever been a parent knows the fine art of negotiating and sweetening the pot (the spoonful of sugar in the medicine) often produces better and more long lasting results. 

You can only tell people for so long what they are seeing is not what is real.  

[Hlitner]

4 minutes ago, KirkNC said:

No, while some may do what you say, I don’t think I will.  Once we get fully vaccinated this Friday (we being DW and I), our behaviors will change.  We will actually go sit down in a restaurant for the first time in a year.  Already know where and what I will order😎.  Once others get vaccinated they should do the same.  The problem right now is many are adjusting their behavior prior to vaccination. 
 

I get the whole government intervention thing but in this rare case, a once in a lifetime pandemic, the government has to help protect Americans from there own stupidity.  Sometimes we get so wrapped up in our individual freedoms at the great expense to the collective good.  Neither is 100% right or wrong, the best behavior is somewhere in the middle.

I do hear you and DW and I now fall into the fully vaccinated crowd.  But I am still enough of a libertarian to think that we (the public) need to protect ourselves from an overreaching government who uses "it is for your own good" to their advantage.  The Founding Fathers were brilliant enough to realize that the People needed a Constitution to protect them from the government.  I have written this before (and most of our children will never understand since they cannot go to school for a real education) but our US Constitution was written to LIMIT the power of the government.  There is no clause in our Constitution which says we can be forced to give up our rights for "our own good."    And when you use the term "collective good" we should remember who loves to use the term "collective"  and, hint, it is not a Democratic form of government.

 

Hank

[KirkNC]

1 minute ago, Hlitner said:

I do hear you and DW and I now fall into the fully vaccinated crowd.  But I am still enough of a libertarian to think that we (the public) need to protect ourselves from an overreaching government who uses "it is for your own good" to their advantage.  The Founding Fathers were brilliant enough to realize that the People needed a Constitution to protect them from the government.  I have written this before (and most of our children will never understand since they cannot go to school for a real education) but our US Constitution was written to LIMIT the power of the government.  There is no clause in our Constitution which says we can be forced to give up our rights for "our own good."    And when you use the term "collective good" we should remember who loves to use the term "collective"  and, hint, it is not a Democratic form of government.

 

Hank

Agreed, you and I are not as far apart in political thinking as some may think.  I am just willing to give a bit of a mulligan on this one.

[Hlitner]

Just now, KirkNC said:

Agreed, you and I are not as far apart in political thinking as some may think.  I am just willing to give a bit of a mulligan on this one.

LOL.   I was inclined to agree with you until I heard Dr. Walensky utter the words, "I have a feeling of impending doom."   At that moment it occurred to me that the only impending doom was our government continuing to expand their power at our expense....all in the name of COVID.   I now have that same feeling of impending doom, but it is not from COVID.  Time to take our country back.  The CDC was a much better agency when they worked quietly in the background and that is where they need to stay (in the background).

 

Hank

[SJSULIBRARIAN]

Go Hank!!. You make good sense.

[KirkNC]

3 hours ago, Hlitner said:

LOL.   I was inclined to agree with you until I heard Dr. Walensky utter the words, "I have a feeling of impending doom."   At that moment it occurred to me that the only impending doom was our government continuing to expand their power at our expense....all in the name of COVID.   I now have that same feeling of impending doom, but it is not from COVID.  Time to take our country back.  The CDC was a much better agency when they worked quietly in the background and that is where they need to stay (in the background).

 

Hank

Sorry I don’t share your fear of the deep state trying to take over my life.  Not saying CDC or the government has not made many mis-steps over the last year.  I do think their mistakes have generally incurred as they were trying to do what they thought was right.  

Edited April 7, 2021 by KirkNC

[rkacruiser]

The most significant post in these most recent ones, in my opinion, is the one concerning the statement by the President of Carnival Cruise Lines.  They are the "big dog" in this fight as to what cruising from the United States ports will look like.  

 

If they pick up "their marbles" along with those of RCI and NCL and depart American ports, there is going to be repercussions by them doing so.  The politicians of whatever Party may well experience the wrath of their constituents whose jobs in the hospitality/cruise industry will have been permanently lost.  

[rkacruiser]

4 minutes ago, KirkNC said:

Sorry I don’t share your fear of the deep state trying to take over my life.  Not saying CDC or the government has not made many mis-steps over the last year.  I do think their mistakes have generally incurred as they were trying to do what they thought was right.  

 

I share your thinking.  It's obvious that their thinking and recommendations evolved as we learned more about Covid-19.  And, does that not continue today?  

 

I trust what I hear/read from the CDC more today than I did on January 19, 2021.  

 

Is what I hear/read politically tainted?  I hope not.  I trust it is not.  Only history will determine what really is happening.  

 

 

[fatcat04]

 

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

― C. S. Lewis

 

Not everyone wants their hand held from cradle to grave. Most of us just want to be left alone and are more than happy to take the mantle of responsibility for our fate onto our own shoulders. This does not mean we are reckless or nonintellectuals, it just means we want to be free. 

[tosteve1]

[tosteve1]

Covid in Britain. Speaks for itself.