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CDC denies cruise sector's request to lift US sailing restrictions


mnocket
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5 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

No, it is not backwards. The CDC told them what they wanted. It is up to them to figure out how to do it as it is their field of expertise, and then get back to the CDC to see if it is enough or needs some modification. 

so, the CDC doesn't have the "expertise" to develop the policies and procedures , but ... always that but once submitted they suddenly have the "expertise" to say OK, not good enough, come back with more ???

 

pete and repete

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20 hours ago, stevenr597 said:

The CDC has lost its way.  They have become a political organization, no longer basing their decisions on the science. 

A long time ago, this is just the first true example of it that ALL are able to see...

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, voljeep said:

so, the CDC doesn't have the "expertise" to develop the policies and procedures , but ... always that but once submitted they suddenly have the "expertise" to say OK, not good enough, come back with more ???

 

pete and repete

CDC provides the basic parameters because there are differences between the cruise lines, ship designs. passenger and crew density etc.  Each cruise line might decide to take different approaches in how they address each requirement.

 

It is up to the cruise line to determine how those requirements would be executed on each specific ship. 

 

After all it is not about the general requirement but how those turn into specific work assignments, staffing, personnel placement, which cabins to fill and which to leave vacant, spacing of tables, floor markings, how to enforce elevator loads, on and on and on.  I really do not think that the cruise lines would like the CDC or Coast Guard to dictate that level of operational management.

 

That is why the cruise lines have to supply the detailed plans.

Edited by nocl
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1 hour ago, nocl said:

CDC provides the basic parameters because there are differences between the cruise lines, ship designs. passenger and crew density etc.  Each cruise line might decide to take different approaches in how they address each requirement.

 

It is up to the cruise line to determine how those requirements would be executed on each specific ship. 

 

After all it is not about the general requirement but how those turn into specific work assignments, staffing, personnel placement, which cabins to fill and which to leave vacant, spacing of tables, floor markings, how to enforce elevator loads, on and on and on.  I really do not think that the cruise lines would like the CDC or Coast Guard to dictate that level of operational management.

 

That is why the cruise lines have to supply the detailed plans.

Since he quoted my post, I intended to answer, but you not only did before I had a chance to but with much more precise detail. Thank you.

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1 hour ago, GonzoWCS said:

A long time ago, this is just the first true example of it that ALL are able to see...

Exactly.  This is the one good thing to come out of this.  We now see what the CDC is.  Before covid, I used to think government agencies were just doing basic jobs.  My entire world view has changed.

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20 hours ago, scottca075 said:

 

1/23/21 there were 171k daily cases, 2/23/21 there were 72k daily cases, 3/23/21 there were 52k daily cases. I call that trending down.

Oh my goodness, what terribly frightening figures they are. I can only imagine it’s going to be quite some time before our world goes back to a ‘new normal’. Stay safe & well. 😊

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1 hour ago, whitecap said:

I'm not a doctor, scientist, chemist or in any way an expert on viruses but I do have a nose and I can smell bs when someone is shoveling it.  The cruise lines are ready and willing to do whatever the CDC requires of them but the CDC, while being ok with sporting events having thousands of spectators in stadiums, race tracks, arenas and pack passengers onto an airplane refuses to work with the cruise lines.  I don't want to sail until it is safe but how the heck are the cruise lines going to show the CDC and cruisers that it can be done safely if not given some instructions and allowed to show they can be followed.  The old saying is you can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig, well, you can spray bs with deodorizer but it's still bs.

Except CDC has no authority to restrict stadiums, race tracks, arenas or anything else located inside a state.

 

Air Travel is considered to be essential travel with the control under the FAA, though the CDC does track any reported cases.  

 

The CDC has produced guidelines, but no large cruise line has submitted detailed plans to the CDC defining how they want to operate.  Instead the CLIA has asked that CDC to drop the order, not modify it, not remove some considerations, not suggest alternative considerations, but drop the entire order.

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15 minutes ago, nocl said:

Except CDC has no authority to restrict stadiums, race tracks, arenas or anything else located inside a state.

 

Air Travel is considered to be essential travel with the control under the FAA, though the CDC does track any reported cases.  

 

The CDC has produced guidelines, but no large cruise line has submitted detailed plans to the CDC defining how they want to operate.  Instead the CLIA has asked that CDC to drop the order, not modify it, not remove some considerations, not suggest alternative considerations, but drop the entire order.

The CDC has more authority than you know and more power to "influence" and or "force" a state to do whatever they tell them to do.  You state that air travel is "essential travel"; wow, I guess all those college student who packed airplanes to Florida, California, and Hawaii for spring break were on "essential travel".  The CDC has worked with the airlines, theme parks and other entities, why not the cruise line.  Like I said in my original post, spray deodorizer on bs, it's still bs.  

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Agree somewhat but behind the scene's I'm sure the cruise lines and the CDC have had many discussions.  Have they reached a agreement that they both feel they can live with.  Obviously not.

I'm personally convinced that cruise lines are going to have to agree to reduced capacity and all passengers and crew vaccinated.

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, whitecap said:

The CDC has more authority than you know and more power to "influence" and or "force" a state to do whatever they tell them to do.  You state that air travel is "essential travel"; wow, I guess all those college student who packed airplanes to Florida, California, and Hawaii for spring break were on "essential travel".  The CDC has worked with the airlines, theme parks and other entities, why not the cruise line.  Like I said in my original post, spray deodorizer on bs, it's still bs.  

Exactly under what law and statute gives them that authority?

 

This is where they get the enforcement authority at the national boarder and at state lines (only when it is determined that insufficient action is taken by local authorities).  Nowhere do they have authority to direct or enforce within a state

 

PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE ACT (42 U.S.C. 264, 268) AND 42 CODE OF FEDERAL REGULATIONS PART 70 (INTERSTATE) AND PART 71 (FOREIGN)

 

The CDC's ability to influence a state is limited to how much that state wishes to follow the recommendations.  In other words how willing the Governor of that state is willing to oppose or support those recommendations.  As has been demonstrated several state Governors have quite frequently chosen to ignore those recommendations.

 

Air travel is considered to be essential, each individual making a trip might not be.  That does not change that air travel is allowed.  Thought there are mask requirement and other practices that have been put into place by the FAA.

 

To put it another way the continued operation of airlines is continued is considered to be essential even though some people might be traveling for leisure.

 

On the other hand everyone traveling on a cruise ship is traveling for Leisure.

 

Now where exactly has CDC "worked" with theme parks.  Theme parks are solely under the control of the state in which they are located.  Which is why Disney World (Florida) was allowed to open several months before Disney Land (California).  The states established different requirements. Those decisions rest solely within the state.

Edited by nocl
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21 minutes ago, whitecap said:

But let us remember, they got there through "essential travel".  🤢

Air, driving neither are stopped because both have essential elements , even if not every trip is essential.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, GonzoWCS said:

Good luck getting over there.

Have a flight already booked on United. If  the cruise goes, I will be there. There is no problem booking air travel.  The problem will be what ports will accept cruise passengers. I think Great Britain will allow cruises with international passengers , but who really knows. Not sure I would move the booking forward if the cruise does not go. Would be worried about Carnival selling subsidiaries or failing if no cruises this year.

Edited by oskidunker
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On 3/24/2021 at 2:22 PM, mnocket said:

Conditional Sail Order to remain in place until November 2021.

 

I'm growing increasingly disappointed in the CDC.

 

 https://www.tradewindsnews.com/cruise-and-ferry/cdc-denies-cruise-sectors-request-to-lift-us-sailing-restrictions-by-july/2-1-986849

 

I'm more than just disappointed at the CDC arbitrary policies - I just few on a packed airplane, and the Vegas Hotels are wide open...

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22 minutes ago, johnatsis said:

I'm more than just disappointed at the CDC arbitrary policies - I just few on a packed airplane, and the Vegas Hotels are wide open...

Aircraft fall under the FAA which has put some rules in place, such as masks.  Aircraft ventilation also does the equivalent of an air exchange every 5 minutes, and the air flow is from top to bottom with inlets near the ceiling and exhaust near the floor, so any virus expelled is pushed down away from passengers faces.  Big difference in study with the transfer of virus on board planes compared to the R0 level demonstrated on cruise ships.

 

Vegas Hotels being located in a state fall under the rules established by that state.

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20 hours ago, Skai said:

 

What 'science' are you referencing?
 

The fact that a significant portion of Floridians and/or visitors to the state are by-in-large super-spreaders ignoring the science?

 

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/florida-adds-5143-covid-19-cases-30-resident-deaths-wednesday/2413422/

 

The desired threshold in most states is a <5% positivity rate, in others <%3.  For example, California is currently averaging 1.6%, New York's @ 3.3%.  

 

Florida's positivity rate is currently averaging @ 6%.  Texas is @ 6.9%

 

The full list is here (it's almost like a who's who of states that base stuff off of the science vs those that base stuff off of YouTube videos and Social Media political memes)

 

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/states-ranked-by-covid-19-test-positivity-rates-july-14.html

Infections are coming down.  The death rate is definitely declining.  Number of immunizations are way up. 

Florida Covid Data Base. 

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if airlines fall under the FAA the FAA has no medical back ground in viral transmission. How can they be the ones to "put some rules in place to wear masks".  all the masks and air flow in the cabin will not stop the spread of any virus as the host returns to campus after a week in florida. How is it that the CDC governs passenger marine vessels and the cruise industry?  Who is the equivalent of the FAA for ships?

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38 minutes ago, charlie murphy said:

if airlines fall under the FAA the FAA has no medical back ground in viral transmission. How can they be the ones to "put some rules in place to wear masks".  all the masks and air flow in the cabin will not stop the spread of any virus as the host returns to campus after a week in florida. How is it that the CDC governs passenger marine vessels and the cruise industry?  Who is the equivalent of the FAA for ships?

The difference being most cruise ships are foreign entities.  Much like during the plague, when ships were banned from ports so that disease-ridden rats couldn't get off and spread the disease.

 

The CDC can stop what they perceive as a health threat to the US by whatever means works.

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The fact that several cruise lines have announced this week that they are homeporting some of their ships in Nassau, Bermuda, and St. Martin (and you can be sure there will be more to come) indicates that they are convinced they can safely resume cruising. The last thing they want is to have the bad publicity of having covid onboard so they will be putting into practice the safety procedures they have outlined over the last several months--procedures ignored by the CDC. Hopefully all goes well and by demonstrating that cruising can safely resume we will see changes in the cruising ban in the US. The increasing rate of vaccinations and declining rate of infections and deaths can't be ignored by the CDC forever.

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7 hours ago, nocl said:

 

 

This is where they get the enforcement authority at the national boarder and at state lines (only when it is determined that insufficient action is taken by local authorities).  Nowhere do they (the CDC) have authority to direct or enforce within a state

 

 

 

Yet a year ago the CDC said all Covid-19 sample testing had to be done at the CDC labs with no state allowed to set up their own sample testing labs.

 

Seems to me that is some direction over a state.

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7 hours ago, Shmoo here said:

The difference being most cruise ships are foreign entities.  Much like during the plague, when ships were banned from ports so that disease-ridden rats couldn't get off and spread the disease.

 

The CDC can stop what they perceive as a health threat to the US by whatever means works.

 

7 hours ago, Shmoo here said:

The difference being most cruise ships are foreign entities.  Much like during the plague, when ships were banned from ports so that disease-ridden rats couldn't get off and spread the disease.

 

The CDC can stop what they perceive as a health threat to the US by whatever means works.

Bingo!  The US has been disappointed with the cruise industry for many years for flagging their ships elsewhere because by doing so, they aren't controlled by the US Government and they pay much less in taxes.  Why do you think when a past Administration increased the capital gains taxes on big business, they moved their headquarters overseas?  Thousands coming across the boarder, many testing positive, being dropped off in local communities but I haven't heard the CDC tell the federal government to stop doing that.  Doesn't that make the government actions "super spreaders"?  Disappointed in all of them, don't care what initial or symbol is behind their name.

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14 hours ago, Busy Mum said:

Oh my goodness, what terribly frightening figures they are. I can only imagine it’s going to be quite some time before our world goes back to a ‘new normal’. Stay safe & well. 😊

Hardly.  If the latest number posted was accurate, that is approx 16 per 100K population, which is relatively low compared to course of the pandemic.

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24 minutes ago, whitecap said:

Bingo!  The US has been disappointed with the cruise industry for many years for flagging their ships elsewhere because by doing so, they aren't controlled by the US Government and they pay much less in taxes.  Why do you think when a past Administration increased the capital gains taxes on big business, they moved their headquarters overseas?

The US government has not given a tinker's d**n about whether the cruise ships are US flag or not, or why would they have modified the PVSA to allow more US port calls than just the embark/disembark port?  Back in the 80's or 90's, if you took a cruise that started in Miami, you could not go directly to Key West, as that would be "transporting passengers between two US ports".  It was changed so the two ports are where you embark, and where you "permanently" disembark (since going ashore in a port of call is "disembarking" at that port).

 

What cruise line moved their corporate headquarters overseas?  And, anyway, regardless of where the corporate headquarters are, the corporation is foreign incorporated, and the ships are foreign owned.  US IRS tax code specifically exempts all income from a foreign flag ship (or airline), regardless of where that income is generated.  So, Carnival Corp could move their headquarters to Little Rock, Arkansas, and still pay no US tax on the revenue earned by the ships (and what other revenue does Carnival generate?).

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1 minute ago, chengkp75 said:

The US government has not given a tinker's d**n about whether the cruise ships are US flag or not, or why would they have modified the PVSA to allow more US port calls than just the embark/disembark port?  Back in the 80's or 90's, if you took a cruise that started in Miami, you could not go directly to Key West, as that would be "transporting passengers between two US ports".  It was changed so the two ports are where you embark, and where you "permanently" disembark (since going ashore in a port of call is "disembarking" at that port).

 

What cruise line moved their corporate headquarters overseas?  And, anyway, regardless of where the corporate headquarters are, the corporation is foreign incorporated, and the ships are foreign owned.  US IRS tax code specifically exempts all income from a foreign flag ship (or airline), regardless of where that income is generated.  So, Carnival Corp could move their headquarters to Little Rock, Arkansas, and still pay no US tax on the revenue earned by the ships (and what other revenue does Carnival generate?).

You miss read the post.  I did not say "cruise lines" moved their headquarters overseas, I said "big business".  We are not talking here about the PVSA, or the 80's or 90's, we are discussing the CDC and US government not working with the cruise lines to get them back operating from US ports, putting tens of thousands of people back to work.

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6 minutes ago, whitecap said:

You miss read the post.  I did not say "cruise lines" moved their headquarters overseas, I said "big business".  We are not talking here about the PVSA, or the 80's or 90's, we are discussing the CDC and US government not working with the cruise lines to get them back operating from US ports, putting tens of thousands of people back to work.

Why does the US government suddenly have animosity towards the cruise lines?  You said it went back "many years".  What was/is the trigger?  When was any move made to try to force the cruise lines to flag US?  All this "US government hates the cruise lines" stuff is really humorous to me.

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12 hours ago, oskidunker said:

Have a flight already booked on United. If  the cruise goes, I will be there. There is no problem booking air travel.  The problem will be what ports will accept cruise passengers. I think Great Britain will allow cruises with international passengers , but who really knows. Not sure I would move the booking forward if the cruise does not go. Would be worried about Carnival selling subsidiaries or failing if no cruises this year.

Will you have to quarantine once there or do you have the vaccine and you will be allowed free movement?

 

Cheers

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