CDC denies cruise sector's request to lift US sailing restrictions

[HappyInVan]

3 hours ago, stevenr597 said:

Unfortunately, although there are indeed many fine individuals working for the CDC, NIH, and one can easily see that Dr. Fauci is indeed a brilliant individual, these organizations have to a certain extent became politicized.
 

 

You're got the wrong end of the stick. Are we living in the same universe? I live on the planet called Earth.

 

It's the smart people in government who make the plans. Its the politicians who make the decision. Just look at the situation in 2020 where your executive branch was working against the Covid Task Force and the CDC.

 

In May and December, Fauci and colleagues were warning....

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/fauci-senate-economy-1.5565644

 

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/528414-cdc-urges-americans-not-to-travel-for-christmas

 

Of course, what did the usual suspects do!

 

In the UK, the PM repeatedly ignored his science advisor until too late...

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home

 

The numbers say it all. 

 

Edited March 28, 2021 by HappyInVan

[caribill]

1 hour ago, Steelers36 said:

Yes, people like to pick on FL, but they have much better numbers than many States/Provinces that have done, or are doing, lockdowns.  IDK the impact of a couple of weeks recently with college Spring Breakers, but that group is not generally FL citizens nor out-of-state snowbirds.

 

 

To me the  numbers in a recent daily update do not indicate a pandemic that is under control in that state:

 

Florida’s Department of Health on Friday announced 5,750 new confirmed cases of COVID-19. The state also announced 167 new deaths. Of those who died, 159 were residents.

 

 

[Steelers36]

5 minutes ago, caribill said:

 

To me the  numbers in a recent daily update do not indicate a pandemic that is under control in that state:

 

Florida’s Department of Health on Friday announced 5,750 new confirmed cases of COVID-19. The state also announced 167 new deaths. Of those who died, 159 were residents.

 

 

Is it under control anywhere in North America?  (Okay, our Maritime provinces are not in bad shape). 

 

FL is in relatively good shape and safe to live there.  Sure, Miami-Dade-Broward is a risk zone, but the rest of the State is mostly very good in terms of active case counts per 100K on the rolling averages. 

 

Never meant to indicate virus is under control.  It may be a very long time before it is wrestled to the ground, but in the meantime, living a relatively normal life is quite possible.

 

[nocl]

4 hours ago, whitecap said:

My glass, on the left, is half FULL; your glass, on the right of course, is half EMPTY.  I prefer to be optimistic that everything will be worked out thus filling the glass to the top; you, prefer to believe that the glass will continue to empty.  Good luck with that.   When you glass empties, give me a call, I'll be glad to share. 😁

A glass contains X amount of liquid, no more no less.  That is reality.

[nocl]

3 hours ago, stevenr597 said:

We certainly need to continue this debate.  Is the CDC really doing its job?

The State of Florida does not think so.

 
Florida’s Threat to Sue Federal Government Over CDC No-Sail Order Gains National Attention (spacecoastdaily.com)

On one hand you are stating that the CDC did not react far enough and fast enough to control the pandemic, no on the other you are referencing  a state that consistently opposed the recommendations of the CDC, saying that they were too strict and unnecessary.

 

Which is it?

 

Or is it that any grounds for complaints against the CDC is valid?

[rbtan]

On 3/24/2021 at 6:01 PM, stevenr597 said:

The CDC has lost its way.  They have become a political organization, no longer basing their decisions on the science. 

Unfortunately true.

[beg3yrs]

2 hours ago, voljeep said:

.......

 

PARTY ON 🍻

And for those of us who remember three years earlier than Wayne's World, there's "The road goes on forever and the party never ends".

Edited March 28, 2021 by beg3yrs

[beg3yrs]

Someone posted a quote that says the CDC's next phase of instructions is out for "Inter-agency review". In my experience that's the kiss of death. Every oar-dipper will want to make their own little change or push their own agenda and if the document ever gets released it'll be a bloated mess full of impossible contradictions.

 

I'm pretty sure the CDC didn't send their initial no-sail order out for inter-agency review! As I said earlier, stonewalling at its finest. 😡

[jagoffee]

On 3/24/2021 at 6:07 PM, HappyInVan said:

For those keen to sail from FL, check out these graphs from Florida DOH...

 

https://floridahealthcovid19.gov/#latest-stats

 

They show that the cases/day and positivity rate in Florida is unchanged for the last month. That's because the vax have been given to seniors and vulnerable populations. But, the current spreaders are younger. (Anyone with a picture of Miami Beach)

 

In fact, the amount of infections generated in FL is vastly understated as the tourists bring covid home to meet their parents.

 

BTW, the number of Americans with at least one vax dose is only 26%...

 

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/region/united-states

 

 

I guess it would really depend on who is getting tested.  Only people with symptoms?  A true random sample?  I often wonder if the % of people who are fully vaccinated are being tested at the same rate as the general population?

 

I just mention it, because the positivity rates cannot really be compared across different area.  They also cannot be used to make conclusions about the entire population.

 

The fact that 26% of the US population as been administered at least one dose, one year after the Covid is a miracle IMO.  No one could have ever predicted it.

Edited March 28, 2021 by jagoffee

[nocl]

1 hour ago, beg3yrs said:

Someone posted a quote that says the CDC's next phase of instructions is out for "Inter-agency review". In my experience that's the kiss of death. Every oar-dipper will want to make their own little change or push their own agenda and if the document ever gets released it'll be a bloated mess full of impossible contradictions.

 

I'm pretty sure the CDC didn't send their initial no-sail order out for inter-agency review! As I said earlier, stonewalling at its finest. 😡

I would expect that it would have to go to those agencies involved in carry out any actions.  Such as the Coast Guard, and the Office of the Surgeon General (provides the personnel for the VSP program).

 

One would also think that those agencies have been involved in the development so usually a review at this stage would be for final sign off.

[Ride-The-Waves]

True?  Only to the point that the powers that were occupying the White House at the time forced the CDC to capitulate to what was "gut" perspectvies which became directive.  "Gut" is never that science.  Remember hydroxychloroquine pushed by the White House over CDC recommendation as the magic elixir to cure COVID-19 infections?  

[whitecap]

4 hours ago, nocl said:

A glass contains X amount of liquid, no more no less.  That is reality.

It isn't about the amount of liquid in the class, it is how the person observing the glass perceives the glass.

[HappyInVan]

4 hours ago, beg3yrs said:

I'm pretty sure the CDC didn't send their initial no-sail order out for inter-agency review! As I said earlier, stonewalling at its finest. 😡

 

The CDC (and the equivalent in other countries) issued a no-sail order as an emergency measure on March 14. As part of the Trump administrations efforts to protect Americans; e.g. ban on travelers from China

 

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2020/s0409-modifications-extension-no-sail-ships.html

 

As an emergency safety regulation from the Executive Branch, there was no inter-agency review. Since then, DC has extended the No-Sail Order several times.

 

The CDC cannot just drop the No-Sail Order while the country still experiences infections from coast to coast. It could wait until the disease is eradicated. Instead, it is very reasonably offering to negotiate an end to this Order.

 

Proposals and counter-proposals will be offered. The lead agency will ask other agencies for comments and agreement. There can be several rounds of negotiations. So, don't hold your breath.

 

Today, the bureaucracy is seen in a negative light. In the old days, the professional civil service was a deliverance from capricious and incompetent monarchs and politicians.

 

Hope that I have correctly understood American history? 😛

 

Edited March 28, 2021 by HappyInVan

[AF-1]

chengkp75 and nocl;   thanks for your answers and replies a few pages back.

[nocl]

22 hours ago, nocl said:

There is data from a study in South Africa that indicated that in symptomatic illness the AZ vaccine did not show efficacy against B.1.351.  The South African government stopped its vaccination program with the AZ vaccine when those results came out.  The study was fairly small and was not large enough to see the impact on morbidity and hospitalization.

 

The Israeli studies did encounter B.1.1.7 (UK variant) and the vaccines Pfizer and Moderna showed similar effectiveness against it as the original strain.

 

J&J did run a clinical trial in South Africa and certainly would have encountered B.1.351 but have not seen any breakdown of results by strain.

 

No data yet on Pfizer or Moderna against B.1.351 or any other strains with similar mutations.  The only real data is in vitro that indicates 10 to 12 times the amount of antibodies are needed to neutralize that strain of the virus in the labs.

Did find one bit of data with J&J.  In South Africa where B.1.351 is widespread their clinical trail efficacy was 52% compared to 74.4% in the US where there was little to no B.1.351 when their trial was being run.

[mcrcruiser]

Imo Princess & the other  cruise lines /companies will need to start cruises  from the foreign ports  with out the CDC  . My reason is  responsible  to their share holders & boards of directors  .no sailing no cash generating . Their vendors have  no problems & it is less expensive from the foreign ports 

[nocl]

1 hour ago, mcrcruiser said:

Imo Princess & the other  cruise lines /companies will need to start cruises  from the foreign ports  with out the CDC  . My reason is  responsible  to their share holders & boards of directors  .no sailing no cash generating . Their vendors have  no problems & it is less expensive from the foreign ports 

They can start but it will be difficult for them to do much in the way of generating much cash from those cruises.  At the occupancy rate they are stating they will probably cover the ships operating expenses, which reduce their burn rate, but not do much more.  If something goes wrong it might not be worth the risk.  Probably why NCL and CCL companies appear not to be copying the strategy.

[stevenr597]

20 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

 

You're got the wrong end of the stick. Are we living in the same universe? I live on the planet called Earth.

 

It's the smart people in government who make the plans. Its the politicians who make the decision. Just look at the situation in 2020 where your executive branch was working against the Covid Task Force and the CDC.

 

In May and December, Fauci and colleagues were warning....

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/fauci-senate-economy-1.5565644

 

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/528414-cdc-urges-americans-not-to-travel-for-christmas

 

Of course, what did the usual suspects do!

 

In the UK, the PM repeatedly ignored his science advisor until too late...

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home

 

The numbers say it all. 

 

Have to disagree again with you my friend.

Dr. Fauci's job is to provide advice to the elected officials in our country.  He has done that for several different administrations. At times he gave rather poor advice to Obama in respect to his management of the H1N1 Flu Pandemic as well as Ebola. 

 It is the responsibility of our elected leaders to make decisions based on his and other's advice.  In many cases, Fauci did give incorrect, or frankly wrong information to our last President, such as that face masks were not needed.  

Compounding this is that Fauci has become a bit of a "Diva."  He loves going over the heads of our leaders and trying to give advice based on his opinions directly to the people.  

Fauci in the past stated that, "it would take at least 5 years...if every to produce an effective vaccine against Coronavirus."  We did it is less than one.  Today, Fauci tried to take credit for the rapid production of vaccines in our country.  

In respect to your comments about our leaders working against certain members of  the task force, I would suggest that you read, "Team of Rivals" by Doris Kearns Goodwin.   The task force mission was to provide suggestions and information to our elected leaders, who  take there suggestions, as well as  other factors into consideration when they would make a decision. This is what in effect happened, and it did work, in the fact that the United States, the United Kingdom, and Israel are leading the way in respect to getting vaccinations to the people. I believe that the United States plans to provide both Canada and Mexico with vaccines in the near future to assist them in their fight against Coronavirus. 

Not to dump on Fauci who indeed is a brilliant man, (I have had the priviledge of attending lectures by him in the past,  but Dr. Fauci has  forgoten  that it was his mission to give advice.  He has begun to feel that it is his responsibility  to make decisions which is above his pay grade. 

But thanks for your comments.  
 

[stevenr597]

15 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

 

The CDC (and the equivalent in other countries) issued a no-sail order as an emergency measure on March 14. As part of the Trump administrations efforts to protect Americans; e.g. ban on travelers from China

 

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2020/s0409-modifications-extension-no-sail-ships.html

 

As an emergency safety regulation from the Executive Branch, there was no inter-agency review. Since then, DC has extended the No-Sail Order several times.

 

The CDC cannot just drop the No-Sail Order while the country still experiences infections from coast to coast. It could wait until the disease is eradicated. Instead, it is very reasonably offering to negotiate an end to this Order.

 

Proposals and counter-proposals will be offered. The lead agency will ask other agencies for comments and agreement. There can be several rounds of negotiations. So, don't hold your breath.

 

Today, the bureaucracy is seen in a negative light. In the old days, the professional civil service was a deliverance from capricious and incompetent monarchs and politicians.

 

Hope that I have correctly understood American history? 😛

 

The problem is that the CDC has been "late getting out of the gate" in respect to their regulations.  One can understand why they initially issued a "No-Sail Order" at the start of the Pandemic.  But it does appear that getting the cruise industry back has running has been a rather low priority for them.  Whether this is the correct decision is another subject for debate.  

 

[stevenr597]

17 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

True?  Only to the point that the powers that were occupying the White House at the time forced the CDC to capitulate to what was "gut" perspectvies which became directive.  "Gut" is never that science.  Remember hydroxychloroquine pushed by the White House over CDC recommendation as the magic elixir to cure COVID-19 infections?  

Have to disagree.  Fauci and the CDC made decisions, initially which were quite wrong, in regards to mass testing not being important, as well as their being no necessity to the wearing of face masks.

In regards to hydroxychloroquine the answer is not as simple as suggested.  There were several papers which suggested their efficacy.   In addition, Fauci stated that Remdesivir  was a game changer, only to have to quietly walk it back a short time later.  

[Ride-The-Waves]

12 minutes ago, stevenr597 said:

Have to disagree.  Fauci and the CDC made decisions, initially which were quite wrong, in regards to mass testing not being important, as well as their being no necessity to the wearing of face masks.

In regards to hydroxychloroquine the answer is not as simple as suggested.  There were several papers which suggested their efficacy.   In addition, Fauci stated that Remdesivir  was a game changer, only to have to quietly walk it back a short time later.  

Incorrect.  Extremist perspective are closer to untruths than reality.  Parroting the former administrations lies to the American people does not provide valuable additions to the discussion.  Please stick with verifiable and real data.

[memoak]

23 hours ago, stevenr597 said:

You do have a very valid point.  At the start of the Pandemic, although New York City made a big thing in respect to mitigation, they continued to permit the subways, and bus service to operate and their was no attempt to require the wearing of masks or social distancing.  

In hindsight, they should have limited use of the mass transport systems to first responders and other essential personal.  They should have also required social distancing and the wearing of masks.

By the time, the Governor and Mayor realized what was happening it was too late.
 

If they had restricted public transit to first responders then no one could have gotten to work. Most people in NYC do not have cars and rely on public transit 

[whitecap]

For those of you who may not have seen this article posted by Cruise Critic, it makes very interesting reading.  CDC Director was asked in a Senate hearing when the cruise industry could get back in operation and the "expert", the one in charge responded with a detailed educated "LATER".  Asked several times to explain what "later" meant, she couldn't explain.  Then the Director made the comment that it was not a decision to be made by the CDC alone; that many agencies were involved in deciding about the cruise industry, to include the Department of Transportation.  Apparently the cruise industry didn't know about these other departments being involved and when Cruise Critic contacted the DOT for a response, they denied any involvement.  So, the director of the CDC doesn't know what "later" means and has no idea who, if any, other departments are involved in the decision to be made about the cruise lines.

And then yesterday the great and wonderful OZ, also known as Dr. Falsehood, I mean Fauci, claimed we should all be thankful for the vaccine as it was the "best decision I've ever made".  He made?

Become political, Fauci, nah; CDC director, nah!  The BS continues.

www.cruisecritic.com:.webloc

[Steelers36]

14 minutes ago, whitecap said:

For those of you who may not have seen this article posted by Cruise Critic, it makes very interesting reading.  CDC Director was asked in a Senate hearing when the cruise industry could get back in operation and the "expert", the one in charge responded with a detailed educated "LATER".  Asked several times to explain what "later" meant, she couldn't explain.  Then the Director made the comment that it was not a decision to be made by the CDC alone; that many agencies were involved in deciding about the cruise industry, to include the Department of Transportation.  Apparently the cruise industry didn't know about these other departments being involved and when Cruise Critic contacted the DOT for a response, they denied any involvement.  So, the director of the CDC doesn't know what "later" means and has no idea who, if any, other departments are involved in the decision to be made about the cruise lines.

And then yesterday the great and wonderful OZ, also known as Dr. Falsehood, I mean Fauci, claimed we should all be thankful for the vaccine as it was the "best decision I've ever made".  He made?

Become political, Fauci, nah; CDC director, nah!  The BS continues.

www.cruisecritic.com:.webloc 320 B · 0 downloads

That Senate hearing sure makes the whole thing sound political up and down.  Pass the buck, point the finger.  Who is really calling the shot here?  Getting the cruise ships going is perceived as a Trump admin thing I am thinking and the current admin is doing anything it can to undo or reverse what Trump was doing.  Obviously, Trump admin was unable to move CDC much forward in establishing guidelines for cruise lines to re-open and CDC is taking their sweet time.  

 

Now the PTB in Miami-Dade and Broward counties are pushing for action, but I don't hear a lot of other organized clamoring at high levels to get cruise lines operating again.

[Steelers36]

8 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

There's no doubt that a tell-all expose of the first three months, will be a fascinating triple best seller.

If/When this happens, there will be multiple stories as with everything in politics.