CDC Ruining Cruising in the US

[Kwaj girl]

On 3/25/2021 at 7:13 PM, ORV said:

While I don't disagree with you, from what I've heard recently Mexico would be pretty dicey. Low vaccination rates and a leader that doesn't care about it or Covid. 

 

We've been to Mexico 5 times since last September....and we remain covid-free.  Yes, we took the vaccine last month only because we want to cruise again.

[TrulyBlonde]

Here you go:

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/24742-florida-files-lawsuit-against-cdc-to-restart-cruise-industry-in-united-states.html

[howiefrommd]

49 minutes ago, TrulyBlonde said:

Here you go:

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/24742-florida-files-lawsuit-against-cdc-to-restart-cruise-industry-in-united-states.html

Pure political theater.  The wacky part about the filing, the motion references the APA yet the plaintiffs failed to seek any relief under the APA. 

[njhorseman]

52 minutes ago, TrulyBlonde said:

Here you go:

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/24742-florida-files-lawsuit-against-cdc-to-restart-cruise-industry-in-united-states.html

 

3 minutes ago, howiefrommd said:

Pure political theater.  The wacky part about the filing, the motion references the APA yet the plaintiffs failed to seek any relief under the APA. 

Some experts are already calling it a political stunt that isn't legally viable.

https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida-politics/2021/04/08/desantis-sues-cdc-to-get-cruises-restarted-experts-call-it-a-political-stunt/

[Host Jazzbeau]

First it was 'theater' because it was only a press conference without a lawsuit.  Now there's a lawsuit – so let's move the goalposts.  As usual.

[howiefrommd]

6 minutes ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

First it was 'theater' because it was only a press conference without a lawsuit.  Now there's a lawsuit – so let's move the goalposts.  As usual.

After reading the PACER filing, you feel this motion has standing?

[chengkp75]

9 minutes ago, howiefrommd said:

After reading the PACER filing, you feel this motion has standing?

Can you post a link to the actual filing?

[Host Jazzbeau]

There's a difference between a multi-pronged strategy and 'theater' – I see a thoughtful escalation of pressure on the CDC to do the right thing.  And there are signs that it is already having an effect.  After all, if the CDC's intransigence drives cruising away from US ports, the CDC loses ALL authority over cruising.  Better to compromise and retain some sway.

[chengkp75]

4 minutes ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

There's a difference between a multi-pronged strategy and 'theater' – I see a thoughtful escalation of pressure on the CDC to do the right thing.  And there are signs that it is already having an effect.  After all, if the CDC's intransigence drives cruising away from US ports, the CDC loses ALL authority over cruising.  Better to compromise and retain some sway.

I don't agree that it is having any effect.  What everyone is touting is the CDC saying "hopefully" cruises could start by July, but that is with the caveat of "while fulfilling the requirements of the CSO". So, no change in CDC stance, just stating that if the cruise lines get their collective fingers out, cruising could start then.

 

CDC has very little control over cruising anyway, and really doesn't want any.  But, even a ship that starts at a foreign port, must meet CDC requirements in order to get health clearance to enter US waters.  That is what the CDC has, and wants, control over, not the cruising industry per se.

[clo]

5 hours ago, Kwaj girl said:

 

We've been to Mexico 5 times since last September....and we remain covid-free.  Yes, we took the vaccine last month only because we want to cruise again.

So do you hang out with the locals or pretty much stay with other tourists?

[Host Jazzbeau]

12 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

That is what the CDC has, and wants, control over, not the cruising industry per se.

My experience is that what every bureaucrat wants is Power.  And every bureaucracy manager wants to expand their Fief.  I see no reason to believe that the CDC is different.

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

My experience is that what every bureaucrat wants is Power.  And every bureaucracy manager wants to expand their Fief.  I see no reason to believe that the CDC is different.

The CDC cares about disease, not about an industry.  Even the VSP was a collective effort by CDC and cruise lines to make things easier for both parties.

[Daniel A]

58 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Can you post a link to the actual filing?

Fla+v+HHS+and+CDC+complaint.pdf (myfloridalegal.com)

 

 

[Kwaj girl]

48 minutes ago, clo said:

So do you hang out with the locals or pretty much stay with other tourists?

 

Generally stay at the resort - which of course employs the locals. Have not had a bad experience at any of the resorts - we stay somewhere different each time....kinda lika a new vacation even though it's the same resort town.

[Hlitner]

Everyone take a deep breath :).  This kind of posturing is quite normal in the world of government regulation (I helped regulate the healthcare industry in my State and we were routinely sued), but is probably a good move on the part of Governor Desantis.  It helps get some more attention paid to the issue.  We must remember that is was less then a month ago when the new CDC Director (Dr. Walensky) testified before Congress that she really did not have much knowledge about the cruise issue (she was not even aware her agency was the one that had shut down the cruise industry).

 

Will this suit go anywhere?  I will assume that there will be some kind of deal between the CDC and cruise industry before this suit moves anywhere in the Federal Courts.  When the DOJ responds they will likely move for the suit to be tossed out because the State of Florida has no standing.   There will need to be written arguments submitted by both sides and a period of time for a Judge to review the arguments and rule on that single motion.  All that takes time and if the CDC is truly thinking of letting things open in July (nobody has put that in writing) then the suit will become moot.

 

What I find interesting is that, at this time, no cruise line has joined the suit (which would probably resolve the standing issue).  

 

Hank

[RJB]

58 minutes ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

My experience is that what every bureaucrat wants is Power.  And every bureaucracy manager wants to expand their Fief.  I see no reason to believe that the CDC is different.

Sounds quite right.  And we suffer. 

[Daniel A]

2 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

First it was 'theater' because it was only a press conference without a lawsuit.  Now there's a lawsuit – so let's move the goalposts.  As usual.

It will be interesting to see if anyone else joins in the suit or offers amicus briefs in support of an injunction.  I do think this suit can cause the CDC to incorporate more vaccine driven policies rather than remain so intransigent.  

 

In a related issue, I just got an e-mail from NCL asking for calls to elected representatives requesting they permit resumption of cruising from the US.  @Host Jazzbeau  mentioned a multi-pronged strategy...

Edited April 8, 2021 by Daniel A

[ORV]

8 hours ago, Kwaj girl said:

Yes, we took the vaccine last month only because we want to cruise again.

Well, at least you found some reason to get a vaccination. Not really the reason why everyone that can should get vaccinated, but every little bit helps, whatever their reasoning. 

[Incognito1]

On 4/7/2021 at 8:00 PM, 1985rz1 said:

I vote on that it's more paranoia than prudence, but that's JMO.

You're absolutely entitled to it.  I disagree, but that's okay.  We're free (at this point) to do so.  btw, loved your Northern Lights photo.  Beautiful!

[Daniel A]

On 4/7/2021 at 11:00 PM, 1985rz1 said:

I vote on that it's more paranoia than prudence, but that's JMO.

I'm interested to know your position on locking ones doors when going out for the day.  By any chance do you have an alarm system or a ring doorbell?  Do you pull down your shades at night?

[howiefrommd]

16 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

My experience is that what every bureaucrat wants is Power.  And every bureaucracy manager wants to expand their Fief.  I see no reason to believe that the CDC is different.

After years in clinical practice, I moved into the world of Medical/Healthcare Quality Analytics. Over the years,  I have sat on numerous professional advisory panels at three different Federal Agencies (CDC, CMS and FDA).  Overwhelmingly I have found very dedicated Physicians, Scientists and Researchers.  I have never witnessed nor encountered this conspiratorial animus you articulate. What I have found are clinicians and researchers who care about the work they are entrusted to do.  

[howiefrommd]

16 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Everyone take a deep breath :).  This kind of posturing is quite normal in the world of government regulation (I helped regulate the healthcare industry in my State and we were routinely sued), but is probably a good move on the part of Governor Desantis.  It helps get some more attention paid to the issue.  We must remember that is was less then a month ago when the new CDC Director (Dr. Walensky) testified before Congress that she really did not have much knowledge about the cruise issue (she was not even aware her agency was the one that had shut down the cruise industry).

 

Will this suit go anywhere?  I will assume that there will be some kind of deal between the CDC and cruise industry before this suit moves anywhere in the Federal Courts.  When the DOJ responds they will likely move for the suit to be tossed out because the State of Florida has no standing.   There will need to be written arguments submitted by both sides and a period of time for a Judge to review the arguments and rule on that single motion.  All that takes time and if the CDC is truly thinking of letting things open in July (nobody has put that in writing) then the suit will become moot.

 

What I find interesting is that, at this time, no cruise line has joined the suit (which would probably resolve the standing issue).  

 

Hank

I also found it interesting that the cruise lines and/or their representative entities have not filed nor joined.  On a separate note, by the professional experience noted within your post, I would not be surprised if our paths have not crossed over the years.  

[pinotlover]

1 hour ago, howiefrommd said:

After years in clinical practice, I moved into the world of Medical/Healthcare Quality Analytics. Over the years,  I have sat on numerous professional advisory panels at three different Federal Agencies (CDC, CMS and FDA).  Overwhelmingly I have found very dedicated Physicians, Scientists and Researchers.  I have never witnessed nor encountered this conspiratorial animus you articulate. What I have found are clinicians and researchers who care about the work they are entrusted to do.  

Forest, Meet the Trees. 🥺

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, howiefrommd said:

After years in clinical practice, I moved into the world of Medical/Healthcare Quality Analytics. Over the years,  I have sat on numerous professional advisory panels at three different Federal Agencies (CDC, CMS and FDA).  Overwhelmingly I have found very dedicated Physicians, Scientists and Researchers.  I have never witnessed nor encountered this conspiratorial animus you articulate. What I have found are clinicians and researchers who care about the work they are entrusted to do.  

 

Absolutely agree. People are very quick to be critical of things they have no real working knowledge about these days.

 

[cruisemom42]

18 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

My experience is that what every bureaucrat wants is Power.  And every bureaucracy manager wants to expand their Fief.  I see no reason to believe that the CDC is different.

 

Really?  Can you possibly paint with a bigger brush?

 

One might as well say:

• Every police officer is trigger happy.
• Every CEO is corrupt.
• Every lawyer is a crook.
• Every priest is a child molester.
• Every flight attendant is easy.