CDC Ruining Cruising in the US

[Daniel A]

7 minutes ago, Sea42 said:

Google (or similar) already knows where you go and when, if you use a smart phone. If you use a computer of any type, for any reason, these companies know every site you've ever looked at and when. Even if you never use a computer or smart phone many companies sell your information to the big tech and marketing companies. What you do in public is most likely caught on some type of CCTV.

We long ago gave up privacy for convenience.

Thanks for your response.  I won't have a smart phone for that very reason.  I keep my ez pass in a faraday pouch in my car and I'm not willing to give up that much privacy.  I understand that we no longer have as much anonymity as we did 30 years ago, but I just don't want to give up any more to the corporations.

[tosteve1]

Look at the bright side, maybe if you don’t get a vaccine, Google will stop sending you travel ads! 

[clo]

3 hours ago, Daniel A said:

Thanks for your response.  I won't have a smart phone for that very reason.  I keep my ez pass in a faraday pouch in my car and I'm not willing to give up that much privacy.  I understand that we no longer have as much anonymity as we did 30 years ago, but I just don't want to give up any more to the corporations.

You didn't mention computers cause they sure know tons about you. Do you never order and pay for something online? And looking at trips????? Etc.

[the more ports the better]

Wow, I jump from the Regent boards to the O boards and it’s like a different universe.  Everyone over there is booking up all the Crystal sailings praying that Regent will get a ship up and running soon.  
 

Here, half the people still believe that covid is going to last forever and refuse to sail anytime soon.  I guess different circumstances creat different opinions.  I have a sailing booked every month until the end of the year and I’ll be on the first one that goes!

 

Florida has the oldest population in the country and has always been in the bottom fifty percent of covid deaths nationwide.  Businesses stayed open and kids have been in school all year.  The economy is strong even with California putting so much financial stress on Disney.

 

DeSantis is opposed to Sue restaurant owner or Fred theater operator refusing service based on being vaccinated. Covid records will have to comply with hippa just like every other vaccine or medication.

 

Nationwide death rates are steadily dropping. Number of cases is meaningless as it does not give a picture of the health of the subject.  Many businesses such as Amazon are testing thousands of workers.  That doesn’t tell us who is sick, it only tells us who tests positive.

 

I am in the Pfizer trial and have been added to the variant trial.  I had both injections last summer.  So far we are 96% effective to variants.  More importantly, I went into my appoint last week thinking that I had covid as I was quite ill and running a fever.  The nurse tested me but kind of laughed and said there is no way I had covid as I was too sick, the few cases people get after being vaccinated are so mild that I wouldn’t be running a fever.  My covid test was negative but I was positive for the flu.

 

One statistic shared with the group is that so far, world wide, there have been zero covid deaths from people who have contracted covid after having the Pfizer vaccine.  In my eyes, that is proof positive that we are out of the woods.  I’m just glad I live in Florida where death rates have been low and life has been normal.  My best guess is that my August sailing will go!

[njhorseman]

15 minutes ago, the more ports the better said:

Florida has the oldest population in the country and has always been in the bottom fifty percent of covid deaths nationwide.

https://www.wptv.com/coronavirus/floridas-covid-death-count-under-new-scrutiny

A recently published study suggests that Florida has grossly underreported COVID deaths, with almost 5,000 deaths that should have been attributed to COVID were instead attributed to other causes, although some others disagree with the study's conclusions. This is not the first time Florida has been accused of inaccurate COVID reporting . 

You know the old saying "Where there's smoke there's fire." ?

 

[Aloha 1]

14 hours ago, njhorseman said:

https://www.wptv.com/coronavirus/floridas-covid-death-count-under-new-scrutiny

A recently published study suggests that Florida has grossly underreported COVID deaths, with almost 5,000 deaths that should have been attributed to COVID were instead attributed to other causes, although some others disagree with the study's conclusions. This is not the first time Florida has been accused of inaccurate COVID reporting . 

You know the old saying "Where there's smoke there's fire." ?

 

Just another salacious hit piece. MSNBC?? Yahoo "News"?? Hardly credible sources plus you overlooked the CDC  Stats Director's rebuke of this.  

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, Aloha 1 said:

Just another salacious hit piece. MSNBC?? Yahoo "News"?? Hardly credible sources plus you overlooked the CDC  Stats Director's rebuke of this.  

Did you bother to read what I wrote and read the linked article? By your response I doubt it. Do you just prefer to react angrily?

 

This was a study published in the American Journal of Public Health, not a "salacious hit piece" from MSNBC or Yahoo News.

 

I stated "although some others disagree with the study's conclusions", and the linked article states "Tatar's study has not been accepted by all health experts and has been rebuked by Lauren Rossen, a statistician at the National Center for Health Statistics at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention." so I was up front about the other side of the story.

 

Finally, while I have no reason to doubt  Dr. Loren Rossen's scientific credentials, I can't find anything that suggests that she holds a position of "Stats Director" . As best I can tell she holds the position of Senior Health Statistician and is not senior enough to be listed on the organization chart of the National Center for Health Statistics, which is the part of the CDC where she works.  https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/about/NCHS_Org_Chart_Branch_level_Director_names_010521.png 

Edited April 1, 2021 by njhorseman

[Daniel A]

17 hours ago, njhorseman said:

https://www.wptv.com/coronavirus/floridas-covid-death-count-under-new-scrutiny

A recently published study suggests that Florida has grossly underreported COVID deaths, with almost 5,000 deaths that should have been attributed to COVID were instead attributed to other causes, although some others disagree with the study's conclusions. This is not the first time Florida has been accused of inaccurate COVID reporting . 

You know the old saying "Where there's smoke there's fire." ?

 

 

2 hours ago, Aloha 1 said:

Just another salacious hit piece. MSNBC?? Yahoo "News"?? Hardly credible sources plus you overlooked the CDC  Stats Director's rebuke of this.  

 

1 hour ago, njhorseman said:

This was a study published in the American Journal of Public Health, not a "salacious hit piece" from MSNBC or Yahoo News.

 

I was up front about the other side of the story.

When you were being up front and researching what Laura Rossen had to say, did you dig any deeper than the piece quoting Yahoo News?  Did you look up the lead researcher on the study (Moosa Tatar) as well?  I know you don't think much about the abilities of a Senior Health Researcher at the CDC, so maybe Moosa Tatar's words about this article you quote may help.  From another article on this subject:  "The lead author of a study cited in a Yahoo News story about Covid-19 took to National Review on Tuesday to claim the publication had misrepresented his work."

 

"Moosa Tatar, the lead author of the study Nazaryan cited, told NRO his work had been misrepresented."

 

“You could’ve never gotten the coronavirus, delayed needed health care, and died from diabetes-related complications,” Jason Salemi, an epidemiologist at the University of South Florida, told Yahoo. “That’s still indirectly tied to the pandemic. I don’t think there’s anything egregious going on with the data. I would know. I am just constantly in these data.”

 

Asked whether there was a reason to doubt Florida’s numbers, Lauren Rossen, a statistician at the National Center for Health Statistics at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, concurred, telling Yahoo, “Florida doesn’t stand out to me.”

 

I'm going to consider this to be in the category of 'Fake News.'  When the author of a study needs to correct a reckless disregard for accuracy by a "news" outlet then it becomes a salacious hit piece.

 

There is another old saying about smoke.  It's about blowing smoke into a body part.

 

Moosa Tatar Accuses Yahoo News of Misrepresenting His Work (mediaite.com)

 

 

 

[chengkp75]

On 3/29/2021 at 2:32 PM, Bellaggio Cruisers said:

NCL and RCL supplied the CDC with a health compliance plan, drawn by 12  health experts several months ago, before the vaccine has been widely used. No response to that or the new vaccine circumstances. 
lF you choose not to cruise... don’t... but stop interfering with those of us who want to sail ASAP. 

The Healthy Sail Panel's report is merely an advisory panel's recommendations of what they think should be done.  It does not detail how that is to be done, which is what is required.

On 3/29/2021 at 2:49 PM, LHT28 said:

Do you work at the CDC?

 How do you know the cruise lines have not submitted  their plan?

 

This was posted months ago by Oceania

https://www.oceaniacruises.com/health/

 

seem pretty comprehensive to me

Comprehensive?  Really?  Just taking the first "section" of the "plan" ("continuous shipwide disinfecton...") consists of three sentences. But, when are these actions to take place?  How are these actions to take place (duration of fogging)?  Who is to perform these actions?  What is their training to do these actions? What chemicals are used?  How are the chemicals stored?  How are they prepared?  What is considered "continuous" disinfection?  These are what are needed in a sanitation plan.

On 3/29/2021 at 3:44 PM, Daniel A said:

I would be interested in viewing the source material for both of your statements.  The Cruise Lines are awaiting technical guidance documents from the CDC which would explain what is needed.  So far, CDC hasn't done that.  I think you may have it backward, the CDC needs to inform the cruise industry as to its expectations before the cruise lines can meet their expectations.  Please let us know where you got the information that it is the cruise lines holding up things.

 

I'm interested in viewing the numbers on crew infection rates.  I was not aware this was occurring.  Can you let us know where to find that information?

 

Thanks in advance.

The CDC is resorting to "technical instructions" only because they have received no detailed action plans from the cruise lines.  How a cruise line intends to meet the CDC's requirements is not the CDC's area of expertise, it is the expertise of the cruise lines.  This is how all regulatory rules are generated.  The CDC issues the requirements based on their expertise, epidemiology, and the industry comes back with plans to meet those requirements, in detail.  The two sides then discuss how to meet both the epidemiological requirements and the fiscal and physical challenges of meeting those requirements.  Just like the CDC has issued "recommendations" for covid remediation in health care facilities, each hospital comes up with their own action plan, because each hospital is different, and each company does business differently.

 

Last data on crew that I saw, was that 38 crew, on ships within US waters (those coming in to port for supplies, etc) or in nearby waters, had tested positive.

[XCoastie73]

On 3/28/2021 at 9:36 AM, howiefrommd said:

Although sounds good, unfortunately it is totally political theater.  For a State to have a “Standing” in Federal Court pursuant to any actionable matter set for via Regulations set forth in the CFR, requires an amazing amount of legal expertise. Certainly there are others who can claim “Standing” (ie cruise lines, other States, etc.) yet they have failed to apply for relief from the Federal Judiciary.

Should the amazing hurdle be made and “Standing” is granted, you are looking at many years of litigation before this would even be heard.  

 

I'm a retired senior career fed agency attorney, about half in a regulatory agency.

 

Generally, I would agree with you about States and standing when the regulatory/admin action seems aimed at the private sector.  But in the last Administration there were a ton of cases brought by States and other seemingly-outside entities, which I thought  would get tossed on the basis of standing -- yet they didn't.  I think District Courts have lowered the standing bar so much that lower State tax revenue or even a general negative effect on the State's inhabitants can give the State standing.

[LHT28]

38 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Comprehensive?  Really?  Just taking the first "section" of the "plan" ("continuous shipwide disinfecton...") consists of three sentences. But, when are these actions to take place?  How are these actions to take place (duration of fogging)?  Who is to perform these actions?  What is their training to do these actions? What chemicals are used?  How are the chemicals stored?  How are they prepared?  What is considered "continuous" disinfection?  These are what are needed in a sanitation plan.

 

Thanks  Chief

 I did not realize I needed to know all the specifics  

Hopefully  they have  a plan when the ships get to sail again

Yes the CDC & other entities will  need to know  but for me I thought it was  a good plan

I do not plan on cruising in the near future  so if there are still cruise lines left in business  then the Virus has left  then I will think further on oll the fine details

 

[Daniel A]

22 minutes ago, XCoastie73 said:

I'm a retired senior career fed agency attorney, about half in a regulatory agency.

 

Generally, I would agree with you about States and standing when the regulatory/admin action seems aimed at the private sector.  But in the last Administration there were a ton of cases brought by States and other seemingly-outside entities, which I thought  would get tossed on the basis of standing -- yet they didn't.  I think District Courts have lowered the standing bar so much that lower State tax revenue or even a general negative effect on the State's inhabitants can give the State standing.

Didn't the 9th circuit give standing to States of Washington and Minnesota because an immigration ban would affect the bottom line of their universities?

 

The states can sue

"We therefore conclude that the states have alleged harms to their proprietary interests traceable to the executive order. The necessary connection can be drawn in at most two logical steps: (1) the executive order prevents nationals of seven countries from entering Washington and Minnesota; (2) as a result, some of these people will not enter state universities, some will not join those universities as faculty, some will be prevented from performing research, and some will not be permitted to return if they leave."

 

6 Highlights From the Ruling on Trump’s Immigration Order - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

 

 

[njhorseman]

2 hours ago, Daniel A said:

When you were being up front and researching what Laura Rossen had to say, did you dig any deeper than the piece quoting Yahoo News?  Did you look up the lead researcher on the study (Moosa Tatar) as well?

I dug as deep as the abstract of Dr. Moosa Tatar's paper published in the American Journal of Public Health. You can read it https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/10.2105/AJPH.2020.306130 .

 

When you do, pay particular attention to the conclusions, particularly what I put in bold type:

 

"Conclusions. Total deaths are significantly higher than historical trends in Florida even when accounting for COVID-19–related deaths. The impact of COVID-19 on mortality is significantly greater than the official COVID-19 data suggest."

 

Doesn't sound like Yahoo News misrepresented anything. Perhaps someone is pressuring Dr. Tatar to change his tune.

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by njhorseman

[chengkp75]

43 minutes ago, LHT28 said:

Thanks  Chief

 I did not realize I needed to know all the specifics  

Hopefully  they have  a plan when the ships get to sail again

Yes the CDC & other entities will  need to know  but for me I thought it was  a good plan

I do not plan on cruising in the near future  so if there are still cruise lines left in business  then the Virus has left  then I will think further on oll the fine details

 

Yes, while the Healthy Sail Panel report looks impressive at 64 pages, look at the CDC/USPH VSP (the sanitation program), which has a 129 page construction manual and a 291 page operations manual.  This is the type of "plan" the CDC needs.  This VSP was developed as I've stated, as a cooperative measure between the CDC and the cruise lines.

[Host Jazzbeau]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Yes, while the Healthy Sail Panel report looks impressive at 64 pages, look at the CDC/USPH VSP (the sanitation program), which has a 129 page construction manual and a 291 page operations manual.  This is the type of "plan" the CDC needs.  This VSP was developed as I've stated, as a cooperative measure between the CDC and the cruise lines.

How do you respond to RCG CEO Richard Fain's recent interview on TravelPulse:

He touched on discussion with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the conditional no-sail order in place since October.

“Interestingly, it calls for a four-phase process, and now we’re four months into it, and we’re still in phase one and don’t know what’s required for phase two,” Fain said.

https://www.travelpulse.com/news/cruise/royal-caribbean-ceo-provides-updates-on-vaccines-the-cdc-and-more.html [published March 24, 2021]

[chengkp75]

4 minutes ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

How do you respond to RCG CEO Richard Fain's recent interview on TravelPulse:

He touched on discussion with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the conditional no-sail order in place since October.

“Interestingly, it calls for a four-phase process, and now we’re four months into it, and we’re still in phase one and don’t know what’s required for phase two,” Fain said.

https://www.travelpulse.com/news/cruise/royal-caribbean-ceo-provides-updates-on-vaccines-the-cdc-and-more.html [published March 24, 2021]

The same as I've responded about the cruise lines' response for a year.  The exact same requirements are in the 4 phases of the Conditional Sail Order as were in the No Sail Order, issued back last April.  As I've said, the CDC sets the requirements, and the industry (whatever industry is being regulated by a government agency) responds with the how.  Perhaps if the cruise industry had responded with action plans, and not general recommendations, months ago, the CDC would not have had to resort to issuing the technical instructions that are not their area of expertise.  Over a month ago, the CDC stated that the next phase was dealing with the agreements and contracts the cruise lines would need to reach with ports, hospitals, transportation providers, and accommodation providers to provide for disembarking, treating, transporting, and quarantining patients in the event of infection onboard.  So, don't you think the cruise lines could have stolen some fantastic PR over the evil CDC if they had gone out and reached "letters of intent" or "memorandum of understanding" with these parties, where they agree "in concept" to provide the services required, but with the specifics of level of service to be finalized when the CDC reviews the LOI and makes a determination as to the actual numbers?  Yet, have we heard a peep from the cruise lines along these lines?  Nope.  The cruise lines are still waiting on the pandemic to end and they can return to operation without investing anything, and without any further regulation, but are using the CDC as the whipping boy.

[Host Jazzbeau]

All I do know is that I have 7 cruises booked over the twelve months starting this September, and none of them touch a US port.  They are all fantastic itineraries.  No tourism dollars go to the US.  Pity.

[clo]

3 hours ago, LHT28 said:

Thanks  Chief

 I did not realize I needed to know all the specifics  

Hopefully  they have  a plan when the ships get to sail again

Yes the CDC & other entities will  need to know  but for me I thought it was  a good plan

I do not plan on cruising in the near future  so if there are still cruise lines left in business  then the Virus has left  then I will think further on oll the fine details

 

I wonder if we'll ever cruise again. The next year is going to hopefully tell me a lot.

[SargassoPirate]

13 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

The Healthy Sail Panel's report is merely an advisory panel's recommendations of what they think should be done.  It does not detail how that is to be done, which is what is required.

Comprehensive?  Really?  Just taking the first "section" of the "plan" ("continuous shipwide disinfecton...") consists of three sentences. But, when are these actions to take place?  How are these actions to take place (duration of fogging)?  Who is to perform these actions?  What is their training to do these actions? What chemicals are used?  How are the chemicals stored?  How are they prepared?  What is considered "continuous" disinfection?  These are what are needed in a sanitation plan.

The CDC is resorting to "technical instructions" only because they have received no detailed action plans from the cruise lines.  How a cruise line intends to meet the CDC's requirements is not the CDC's area of expertise, it is the expertise of the cruise lines.  This is how all regulatory rules are generated.  The CDC issues the requirements based on their expertise, epidemiology, and the industry comes back with plans to meet those requirements, in detail.  The two sides then discuss how to meet both the epidemiological requirements and the fiscal and physical challenges of meeting those requirements.  Just like the CDC has issued "recommendations" for covid remediation in health care facilities, each hospital comes up with their own action plan, because each hospital is different, and each company does business differently.

 

Last data on crew that I saw, was that 38 crew, on ships within US waters (those coming in to port for supplies, etc) or in nearby waters, had tested positive.

 

Right now the CDC has the cruise lines engaged in a ""Find Me A Rock" exercise.  You know the one.  I say go find me a rock, with no parameters.  You bring me a rock, and I say, "No, that's not the rock I had in mind.  Go find me another rock."  And the game continues.  When I'm asked how things are going, I report that I'm waiting for you to find me a rock.  In the meantime, you are kept busy trying to find the right rock with no guidance from me.

 

[chengkp75]

18 minutes ago, SargassoPirate said:

 

Right now the CDC has the cruise lines engaged in a ""Find Me A Rock" exercise.  You know the one.  I say go find me a rock, with no parameters.  You bring me a rock, and I say, "No, that's not the rock I had in mind.  Go find me another rock."  And the game continues.  When I'm asked how things are going, I report that I'm waiting for you to find me a rock.  In the meantime, you are kept busy trying to find the right rock with no guidance from me.

 

I disagree.  The CDC has set the "parameters", the what, but again, it is not the CDC's expertise to tell the cruise lines the how to do it, since they don't run businesses.  As they did with the VSP, there was the two sides working together.  The CDC setting the desired result, and the cruise lines determining if/how they could meet that result, and compromising where necessary.  As an example that I've used on another thread, OSHA may set safety standards for the space industry, but the because OSHA has no experience with space travel, the industry sets forth action plans that each company tailors to their unique business model and area of service, that meet OSHA's requirements, which OSHA subsequently approves.  Or, CDC makes recommendations for covid mediation measures for the health care industry, but you can be sure that each and every hospital has their own action plan as to the details of how to implement the recommendations.

Edited April 2, 2021 by chengkp75

[the more ports the better]

I received this response from Paul Chili, 

Is it nice over there in the alternate universe you live in? ...   Yes it is nice to live here, in my universe and in Florida.  Paul, you have always been a gentleman in the many years that I have read these boards, you would love Florida as people tend to be quite nice here.  I try to have a positive attitude and be kind to everyone and it has served me well in life.  I do not criticize or judge as I have no idea what people’s individual situations are.  My dad, wisely, always said, do not judge other people until you have walked 100 miles in their shoes.  I raised my children and they are raising their children in the same vein, and we are a pretty happy and copacetic bunch.   I’ve tried to bring some COVID information to this board periodically as I have access to more information than most people as I’ve been involved in vaccine trials.   I so wish that the constant anger, snarky comments, attacks, and especially the judging would cease.   Regardless of political ideology, we all live in this country together.  We can agree to disagree, move on and focus on common ground which is that we all love sailing and exploring the world, the purpose of these boards.  Divide and conquer is the oldest trick in the book.

[Daniel A]

10 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

As I've said, the CDC sets the requirements, and the industry (whatever industry is being regulated by a government agency) responds with the how.  Perhaps if the cruise industry had responded with action plans, and not general recommendations, months ago, the CDC would not have had to resort to issuing the technical instructions that are not their area of expertise. 

 

The cruise lines are still waiting on the pandemic to end and they can return to operation without investing anything, and without any further regulation, but are using the CDC as the whipping boy.

I posed this question in another thread which has since been shut down, so I never saw an answer. I'd like to ask it again.

 

If during a Senate hearing, when the CDC director was point blank asked what was holding up movement into the next phase, wouldn't it have been more concise to respond "We are waiting for the cruise industry to respond." if such was the case?

 

"So far CDC has provided technical guidance for only the first phase of a four-phase framework, 'moving toward phase two,' as Walensky put it. But under questioning from Alaska Sen. Lisa Murkowski about timing — Will it be end of 2021? Three months? One month? — she would not be pinned down.

'This is an inter-agency decision. It is not a decision solely up to the CDC,' Walensky said. 'I would be remiss if I were to do that myself because the decision is not solely up to us.'

 

Who else then? 

Asked who else is involved in the decision-making, Walensky seemed a little unsure: 'I believe Department of Transportation, OMB (Office of Management and Budget); there are numerous others making these decisions.' "

CDC director can't give timeline on next cruise phase (seatrade-cruise.com)

 

Again, Walinsky never even mentioned the cruise lines being responsible for the delay nor did she include the cruise industry as one of the entities involved in the decision making.  IMHO, the absence of stating a position means it doesn't exist.

[pinotlover]

11 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

All I do know is that I have 7 cruises booked over the twelve months starting this September, and none of them touch a US port.  They are all fantastic itineraries.  No tourism dollars go to the US.  Pity.

This is the bottom line. If the cruise lines don’t mandate vaccinations they are dead in the water. There is no way the lines, individually or collectively, will ever get an Agreement with hospitals in towns like Sitka, Ketchikan, Juneau, or even Bar Harbor to offload 20-50+ Covid sick passengers at a time. They can’t handle it. If having that Agreement is the CDC bar, then the bar prevents cruises.

 

Stop worrying about sailing in US waters. The cruise lines needs to mandate all passengers and crew be vaccinated. Get the hell out of CDC controlled waters, and restart operations as other countries allow. 
 

Announce the shutdown of all non marketing US operations, get all ships out of US waters, and get on with life. I’m definitely not booking anything from or in US waters for the foreseeable future. Do the same with Canada. They are a rich country that doesn’t want or need the dollars. They won’t even allow fully vaccinated tax paying land owners in to visit their properties. Cancel all those US and Canadian ports out until maybe 2025 and see what kind of mood they’re in then.

 

Time to move on and stop worrying about the CDC. 

Edited April 2, 2021 by pinotlover

[LHT28]

7 minutes ago, pinotlover said:

 Do the same with Canada. They are a rich country that doesn’t want or need the dollars.

Have you looked at our debt??

We are trillions of dollars  in debt thanks to  boy wonder & his cronies

[Daniel A]

I just heard on the television (so I cannot post the story) that the CDC is expected to release new guidance today for the airline industry that will now take into account the effect of vaccines.

 

If that's the case, then the CDC lockdown of cruising is looking more and more as being political as the airlines are US companies flying US flagged aircraft.

 

Optics can mean a lot.