4-2-2021 CDC has issued new guidance

[chengkp75]

8 minutes ago, ZoeyVictoria said:

I have to agree with what you are saying.  But...  what would prevent the CDC from adding a clause spelling out very specific requirements for a limited number of ships to sail for a specific period of time?  As a suggestion, 100% vaccinated employees and passengers, live within four driving hours of the port, no international travel for 14 days prior to the cruise, for a sixty-day period?  Couldn’t something like that be done as a limited exception?

Sure, they could, but why?  In their opinion, regardless of what the armchair epidemiologists learn from CNN and MSNBC reports, they are following their industry's "best practices" for not allowing people to bring the virus into the country.  Why should they compromise their best practices to allow a leisure industry to operate?

[soremekun]

23 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

They do control international flights.  But as there have been almost no cases of community transmission on international flights, their recommendations are different than cruise ships, plus it is a totally different environment between airplanes and cruise ships.

I'm sure there has been plenty of community transmission via international flights but it's hard to track.

I'm also sure that's how Covid-19 arrived in the U.S.

[ZoeyVictoria]

6 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Sure, they could, but why?  In their opinion, regardless of what the armchair epidemiologists learn from CNN and MSNBC reports, they are following their industry's "best practices" for not allowing people to bring the virus into the country.  Why should they compromise their best practices to allow a leisure industry to operate?

But it is not just a leisure industry involved, it supports many other businesses and provides jobs.  I guess I was describing an “enhanced” test cruise.

[chengkp75]

3 minutes ago, soremekun said:

I'm sure there has been plenty of community transmission via international flights but it's hard to track.

I'm also sure that's how Covid-19 arrived in the U.S.

Yes, it did arrive by plane, but community transmission means one person on a plane transmitting it to another person on the plane.  The only reason its hard to track is because we haven't done it.  Taiwan did it from the beginning, and look at their results.  I go to airport restaurants and shops (I have to fly to and from my ship), and in many places they have contact tracing sheets to track who has been there, and I see "Bob Vila" or "Alfred E. Neuman", or even "Kiss My ***".  Is is a state secret whether you bought a burger in BWI airport?

[chengkp75]

6 minutes ago, ZoeyVictoria said:

But it is not just a leisure industry involved, it supports many other businesses and provides jobs.  I guess I was describing an “enhanced” test cruise.

Sure it supports other jobs, but what is the rate of direct spending in the US that the cruise lines do per passenger embarked?  It's not much.  And, while that little return on fares does generate a sizable economic impact due to indirect spending, there are probably other ways that could provide a better return for each dollar spent towards direct spending (right up to 100%).  But, even considering the US jobs impacted, why would they compromise what they consider to be the best for the country as a whole?  Their expertise is epidemiology, and they set their requirements on that basis.  The cruise lines need to determine how they can meet those requirements, or choose to operate elsewhere.

Edited April 3, 2021 by chengkp75

[NavArch64]

Although it is correct that the CDC has no jurisdiction over foreign ports in any way, a voyage of a foreign flag cruise ship to/from a US port must include a call at one or more foreign ports as everyone here well knows. As such, the CDC CSO indirectly involves activities at such foreign port(s), when describing each and every voyage of a ship for which a company is seeking CDC authorization or approval under the CSO. That is why I used the term "very complex" in my earlier post. Despite all of this, I just want to be able to safely go to sea again.

[NavArch64]

Dr. Rochelle Paula Walensky (née Bersoff; born April 5, 1969) is an American physician-scientist who is the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the administrator of the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry. Prior to her appointment at the CDC, she was the Chief of the Division of Infectious Diseases at Massachusetts General Hospital and a professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School. Walensky is an expert on AIDS and HIV.

 

She certainly doesn't deserve to be called the names included in an earlier post.

[dswallow]

12 minutes ago, NavArch64 said:

Dr. Rochelle Paula Walensky (née Bersoff; born April 5, 1969) is an American physician-scientist who is the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the administrator of the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry. Prior to her appointment at the CDC, she was the Chief of the Division of Infectious Diseases at Massachusetts General Hospital and a professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School. Walensky is an expert on AIDS and HIV.

 

She certainly doesn't deserve to be called the names included in an earlier post.

 

CDC Walensky Testimony on Cruise Restart on Vimeo

 

One can know the science and be terrible at bigger-picture administrative things. But in general the CDC is now just blaming others for the failure to do anything whatsoever beyond put out a conditional sail order that really provided no guidance on how to proceed, and when public pressure finally came to bear, put out another piece of ridiculous nonsense also with little real guidance. Delay delay delay, ignore their own vaccination plans, ignore their own study findings from vaccination. Delay delay delay. Several cruise lines put together significant protocols and have been operating from other ports with minimal problems. So of course, the CDC will ignore that because they had absolutely nothing to do with it. Delay delay delay.

 

[chengkp75]

51 minutes ago, dswallow said:

The CDC has legal authority everywhere in the United States to protect the public health.

 

19 minutes ago, dswallow said:

Basically the CDC is just the local health department of the seas. Doing those surprise inspections of kitchens and other facilities when they arrive in US ports. They should stick to that level if they're not going to behave responsibly with anything else.

So, which is it?  And, if they didn't do those "surprise inspections" as per the VSP, which was worked out in conjunction with the cruise lines, they would resort to their original mandate of performing a full sanitation inspection and health interview with passengers and crew before anyone is allowed to disembark, every time the ship entered the US. 

 

25 minutes ago, dswallow said:

Fine, the CDC can control state-to-state travel without other specific legislation. Do they? <snort> Of course not. They barely even issue guidance about much of it let alone actually make the slightest attempt to control it.

I guess reading comprehension isn't what it used to be.  I said that the CDC can control state to state travel only if the Secretary of HHS (not the CDC director) considers the states to not be doing an adequate job.

 

31 minutes ago, dswallow said:

Sputnik-V is available for sale.

Sputnik is not approved by WHO, and many countries, including most of the Caribbean, do not recognize it.

 

But, heck, I guess I shouldn't argue with an armchair epidemiologist.

[lizzius]

27 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Sputnik is not approved by WHO, and many countries, including most of the Caribbean, do not recognize it.

 

But, heck, I guess I shouldn't argue with an armchair epidemiologist.

Neither is AZ in some of the Caribbean, because those countries use the FDA as their de facto approval body... The recent signalling by Fauci et. al. that AZ may never get FDA approval is another real head scratcher.

 

I point this out because you're headed down a dangerous road of vaccine nationalism, while in the same breath condoning the government essentially heavily restricting our movement in the name of a nebulous value like public health. Both of those thoughts individually are problematic, but taken together are just nonsensical.

Edited April 3, 2021 by lizzius

[Jeremiah1212]

I think the only people I’ve ever experienced in life who are outrageously furious at the CDC for doing their job are cruise addicts who can’t wait to get to that buffet 😂

[nelblu]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Then your Governor merely needs to look at the mandate of the US Public Health Service, which the CDC is part of.  They are mandated to prevent the introduction of infectious disease into the US.  The CDC is controlling all seaborne commerce, not just the cruise industry, with restrictions on crew, and requirements for reporting, etc, for any ship wanting to enter US waters.  The CDC is not stopping the cruise industry from sailing, they are controlling access to US waters.  If the cruise lines wish to operate elsewhere, they are free to do so.

If that is the case  "They are mandated to prevent the introduction of infectious disease into the US "  Then they should also control the influx from the Southern border.

[A&L_Ont]

The CDC isn’t reading responses on CC about how unfair they are, or their double standards etc. However, there is now an option and it’s brought to you by the lines you love.

 

If you want to go on a cruise, fly to one of the islands and go.  Board a safe plane and get on that safe ship.  Some here have been clamouring for a cruise for a full year, and more since RC and other lines recently announced departures from the Caribbean.  Some have booked, and I personally know 2 that have booked multiple sailings. Others here on CC have said they have booked as well.
 

Instead of just complaining about the CDC, maybe show them your displeasure.  Get on that flight to Nassau or St Maarten and show them how it is safe to cruise by boarding a ship sailing from an island.  The CDC might just be amazed that it does work and could possibly change their attitude.  The lines have done this because they don’t see the CDC backing down anytime soon and they feel it is easier than establishing a plan that will be denied. In essence, these are test cruises by the lines just not the freebies many were hoping for. Also not under the eye of the CDC.
 

Need your fix, that’s how to get it. Show your support to the industry and in turn flip “the bird” to the CDC.  If you don’t want to do that and still want to cruise, you just have to wait for the mercy of the CDC and that doesn’t seem to be altering any time soon.
 

If you want to cruise now, it’s time to put up or shut up. 

Edited April 3, 2021 by A&L_Ont

[jean87510]

18 minutes ago, nelblu said:

If that is the case  "They are mandated to prevent the introduction of infectious disease into the US "  Then they should also control the influx from the Southern border.

true.  At least cruise ships will be vaccinated.  

[Tolkmit]

5 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

This has no bearing on foreign ports, as the CDC has no jurisdiction there.

 

These requirements were known, in general terms, a year ago, and these instructions still only tell the what is required (the same as the NSO and the CSO), which is what the CDC is competent to promulgate.  The how is still up to the cruise lines, just as it has been since last April, and even when it was stated about 2 months ago what the "phase 2" would require, the cruise lines have not done any pre-planning or negotiating to even the level of a "letter of intent" with the various local and state agencies, which could be quickly completed when the levels of service are defined.  And, even here, the CDC is leaving the exact level of services required (max passengers, hospital space, quarantine space) to the parties in the agreements, the cruise lines and the state and local agencies. So, this shows that the cruise lines are even more negligent in not starting discussions with these agencies, since the CDC is generally opting out of the details.

 

How quickly the cruise lines get these agreements in place will show whether they have been working towards this for a year, or merely sitting on their hands.

 

This, and pretty much all of your posts, are so obviously just trying to put the best slant imaginable on anything and everything the CDC does, it's starting to get obviously you either work for them or are married to someone who does.

No, the CDC doesn't specify the exact number of services in the agreement. But they decide the exact level of services and other details that are required because they require their own approval before ships can sail. This is the worst and most idiotic sort of leadership and governance. 

[Tolkmit]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Yes, it did arrive by plane, but community transmission means one person on a plane transmitting it to another person on the plane.  The only reason its hard to track is because we haven't done it.  Taiwan did it from the beginning, and look at their results.  I go to airport restaurants and shops (I have to fly to and from my ship), and in many places they have contact tracing sheets to track who has been there, and I see "Bob Vila" or "Alfred E. Neuman", or even "Kiss My ***".  Is is a state secret whether you bought a burger in BWI airport?

 

It's posts like this that make it obvious you are more interested in spin than in reality. "Planes don't cause community spread." "Well, ok, planes cause community spread; but it's not community spread on the plane itself!" As if that makes a difference. So the CDC is being fair because planes are a danger to everyone, and cruises are a danger to the people on the cruise?

[Tolkmit]

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Please advise where "in the country" the CDC has jurisdiction.

 

What do you consider an "almost vaccinated world"?  Does this include the Philippines, which supplies one third of cruise ship crew, and has only received about 500k doses of the vaccine, has vaccinated about 0.1% of the population, and where only 19% are willing to be vaccinated, and 46% are unwilling?

Unless you are going to go with a fully US crew, the vaccination rates for crew are going to be low for a long time.

 

Cruise lines have agreements with various governments willing to provide the vaccine to cruise staff. For instance, it doesn't matter what the vaccination rate for the country of the Philippines is when Israel has agree to vaccinate anyone working on the Odyssey of the Seas who isn't vaccinated already.

[Tolkmit]

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Sure, they could, but why?  In their opinion, regardless of what the armchair epidemiologists learn from CNN and MSNBC reports, they are following their industry's "best practices" for not allowing people to bring the virus into the country.  Why should they compromise their best practices to allow a leisure industry to operate?

 

This post unintentionally shows your real position perfectly. You're still working, so you don't give a crap about all the people who are out of work. Sure, we could let some people get back to work, but why should we?

[A&L_Ont]

57 minutes ago, Tolkmit said:

 

This, and pretty much all of your posts, are so obviously just trying to put the best slant imaginable on anything and everything the CDC does, it's starting to get obviously you either work for them or are married to someone who does.

This comment alone is the most hilarious of all of them. 

 

[Etta1213]

8 hours ago, jean87510 said:

I absolutely agree with this. If everyone is vaccinated, what's the hold up? More ridiculous double standards.  

Kind of like closed public schools but open borders.

[HBE4]

3 hours ago, Jeremiah1212 said:

I think the only people I’ve ever experienced in life who are outrageously furious at the CDC for doing their job are cruise addicts who can’t wait to get to that buffet 😂

 

No true.

 

 Some are cruise addicts who can’t wait to get to the Diamond Lounge free Happy Hour drinks! 😂 

[bouhunter]

5 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

I see "Bob Vila" or "Alfred E. Neuman", or even "Kiss My ***".  Is is a state secret whether you bought a burger in BWI airport?

It's not a state secret.  But some people would rather not have the local health department tracking and monitoring them if a covid case happens to be reported at a restaurant the dined at.  13 months in and 100 million or more infections in the US, this "contact tracing" has run it's course and is pointless.

Edited April 4, 2021 by bouhunter

[CPT Trips]

14 hours ago, jean87510 said:

If that's true, the cruises will look like the brochure pictures of thin, athletic, healthy beautiful people.

But so many of us regular cruisers drink to excess, are overweight, and not particularly heathy. Why run test cruises with subjects that don’t represent the cruising demographic?

[PelicanBill]

Here's the most interesting part of the shoreside technical instructions I read:

 

The agreement must specify procedures:

• to avoid congregating of embarking and disembarking travelers,
• to ensure disembarking and embarking passengers do not occupy the same enclosed or semi-enclosed areas (e.g., gangways, terminal waiting spaces, check-in areas) within the same 12-hour period, and

That pretty much kills same day turnaround of a ship, and prevents a 7-day itinerary departing the same day of the week.  Embarkation will have to be the day after the ship disembarks. 

 

Thoughts?

 

[sandebeach]

5 hours ago, A&L_Ont said:

The CDC isn’t reading responses on CC about how unfair they are, or their double standards etc. However, there is now an option and it’s brought to you by the lines you love.

 

If you want to go on a cruise, fly to one of the islands and go.  Board a safe plane and get on that safe ship.  Some here have been clamouring for a cruise for a full year, and more since RC and other lines recently announced departures from the Caribbean.  Some have booked, and I personally know 2 that have booked multiple sailings. Others here on CC have said they have booked as well.
 

Instead of just complaining about the CDC, maybe show them your displeasure.  Get on that flight to Nassau or St Maarten and show them how it is safe to cruise by boarding a ship sailing from an island.  The CDC might just be amazed that it does work and could possibly change their attitude.  The lines have done this because they don’t see the CDC backing down anytime soon and they feel it is easier than establishing a plan that will be denied. In essence, these are test cruises by the lines just not the freebies many were hoping for. Also not under the eye of the CDC.
 

Need your fix, that’s how to get it. Show your support to the industry and in turn flip “the bird” to the CDC.  If you don’t want to do that and still want to cruise, you just have to wait for the mercy of the CDC and that doesn’t seem to be altering any time soon.
 

If you want to cruise now, it’s time to put up or shut up. 

Well said.