Florida sues to reopen cruise ports

[nocl]

9 hours ago, TeeRick said:

I was doing a back of the envelope calculation in the absence of real data.  Your points add a bit more to the equations.  It will be very interesting to see the published notes from the FDA meeting.  I assume there will be.

I would expect so.  Now lets see how many more members of the board that J&J can irritate prior to the meeting trying to drag other vaccines down.

[NMTraveller]

Our churches just opened back up at 100% due to Supreme Court decisions that struck down some of the unconstitutional laws.

 

Two words come to mind.  Arbitrary and capricious.  They are allowing the rest of the travel industry to conduct business yet the cruise lines are denied.  It would be difficult to explain in court why Industry A who has implemented extreme Covid mitigation cannot operate while Industry B with minimal changes can operate.  Why cruises with 100% vaccination cannot operate while the rest of the travel industry does not require any vaccination.

Edited April 24, 2021 by NMTraveller

[Arizona Wildcat]

8 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

Our churches just opened back up at 100% due to Supreme Court decisions that struck down some of the unconstitutional laws.

 

Two words come to mind.  Arbitrary and capricious.  They are allowing the rest of the travel industry to conduct business yet the cruise lines are denied.  It would be difficult to explain in court why Industry A who has implemented extreme Covid mitigation cannot operate while Industry B with minimal changes can operate.  Why cruises with 100% vaccination cannot operate while the rest of the travel industry does not require any vaccination.

If the cruise industry would respond providing an answer to ALL the proposed guidelines from the CDC then things would open immediately.   CLIA has not shown port agreements to takeaway and treat ill patients.  They need to get it in gear.  Many months and nothing on this.

[NMTraveller]

8 minutes ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

If the cruise industry would respond providing an answer to ALL the proposed guidelines from the CDC then things would open immediately.   CLIA has not shown port agreements to takeaway and treat ill patients.  They need to get it in gear.  Many months and nothing on this.

Do they require this of the hotel industry?  Do they require this of the airlines?  Do they require this of tour companies in the US?  Nope.  Arbitrary and capricious.

 

I believe that the cruise industry has responded.  They said that the CDC plan was unworkable.  Now the ball is in the CDCs court to respond to the NCL proposal.

Edited April 24, 2021 by NMTraveller

[cruisemom42]

2 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

Do they require this of the hotel industry?  Do they require this of the airlines?  Do they require this of tour companies in the US?  Nope.  Arbitrary and capricious.

 

Do hotel industries cater SOLELY to vacationers and leisure travelers?  NO.

 

Do airlines cater SOLELY to vacationers and leisure travelers?  NO.

 

Have tour companies in the US been operational and without restrictions?  NO (read here, for example).

 

 

[NMTraveller]

8 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Do hotel industries cater SOLELY to vacationers and leisure travelers?  NO.

 

Do airlines cater SOLELY to vacationers and leisure travelers?  NO.

 

Have tour companies in the US been operational and without restrictions?  NO (read here, for example).

 

 

The CDC does not have any restrictions on leisure travelers period other than wearing a mask at the airports which is loosely enforced and applies to all travelers.

 

Arbitrary and capricious.

Edited April 24, 2021 by NMTraveller

[Blackduck59]

13 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

Do they require this of the hotel industry?  Do they require this of the airlines?  Do they require this of tour companies in the US?  Nope.  Arbitrary and capricious.

 

I believe that the cruise industry has responded.  They said that the CDC plan was unworkable.  Now the ball is in the CDCs court to respond to the NCL proposal.

 

Actually the CDC has all the balls and all the aces and any other analogy you want to use. I'm sorry it's up to the cruise industry and all the on land satellite industries to come up with a plan the CDC will accept. Meanwhile the cruise industry will start cruising where they can and continue to gather data about the safety of their product to present to the powers that be.

Meanwhile part of the formula for success is for everybody to get vaccinated and the reluctant group must realize that their "rights" do not extend to endangering others. I would suggest that anyone in the world no matter what their country's constitution says better be prepared to be vaccinated because the rules in the country you are visiting are the rules that count.

[NMTraveller]

11 minutes ago, Blackduck59 said:

 

Actually the CDC has all the balls and all the aces and any other analogy you want to use. I'm sorry it's up to the cruise industry and all the on land satellite industries to come up with a plan the CDC will accept. Meanwhile the cruise industry will start cruising where they can and continue to gather data about the safety of their product to present to the powers that be.

Meanwhile part of the formula for success is for everybody to get vaccinated and the reluctant group must realize that their "rights" do not extend to endangering others. I would suggest that anyone in the world no matter what their country's constitution says better be prepared to be vaccinated because the rules in the country you are visiting are the rules that count.

They have the aces, in that they will run out the clock until November.  Court cases take a while to be heard.  The courts have been overturning many of the laws as an overreach.

 

It should be interesting to see how the argument of endangering peoples live who refuse to get vaccinated will go as when the cruise lines start back up in a limited fashion after everyone in the USA will have had the opportunity to get their vaccine.  Do we go back to life as normal or hide in our basements for the rest of the century.  I am for getting life back to normal.

 

The idea that vaccinated people are endangering unvaccinated peoples lives seems overblown.  I would encourage them to get the vaccine.

Edited April 24, 2021 by NMTraveller

[bEwAbG]

Been to see a play or musical on Broadway?  Your local theater?  Been to a choir concert?  How about the local symphony?  With limited exceptions that are generally restricted by crowd size, live performances have been shut down due to COVID restrictions.  That is a multi-billion dollar industry in the U.S.  Every business is having to adapt to the realities of COVID and restrictions before they can reopen, and a big part of that is following guidance by CDC since local governments are generally relying on that advice. 

 

There is nothing arbitrary and capricious about what the cruise industry is facing, particularly since they have a history with COVID against which to be monitored.  If they don't like it, they are at least in a position to find other places to do business.

[NMTraveller]

9 minutes ago, bEwAbG said:

Been to see a play or musical on Broadway?  Your local theater?  Been to a choir concert?  How about the local symphony?  With limited exceptions that are generally restricted by crowd size, live performances have been shut down due to COVID restrictions.  That is a multi-billion dollar industry in the U.S.  Every business is having to adapt to the realities of COVID and restrictions before they can reopen, and a big part of that is following guidance by CDC since local governments are generally relying on that advice. 

 

There is nothing arbitrary and capricious about what the cruise industry is facing, particularly since they have a history with COVID against which to be monitored.  If they don't like it, they are at least in a position to find other places to do business.

Yes.  They are opening back up.  

 

Yours are opening up slower than others due to where you live.  Your example is one of state rules and not the feds.

 

Regarding businesses adapting to Covid,  with air filtration, HEPA, etc. the cruise lines have done better than most.

Edited April 24, 2021 by NMTraveller

[Blackduck59]

6 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

They have the aces, in that they will run out the clock until November.  Court cases take a while to be heard.  The courts have been overturning many of the laws as an overreach.

 

It should be interesting to see how the argument of endangering peoples live who refuse to get vaccinated will go as when the cruise lines start back up in a limited fashion after everyone in the USA will have had the opportunity to get their vaccine.  Do we go back to life as normal or hide in our basements for the rest of the century.

 

Having the opportunity to get vaccinated and actually being vaccinated are 2 different things. I'm not hiding in my basement why are you. I do however wear the mask as required even though I hate it. My wife and I have no contact with any anyone outside of our work. When we were able to "dine in" at restaurants we only went to a select few that had well spaced tables and masked staff. Meanwhile the entitled few continue to have their large parties and disregard the health directives. These things are happening all over Canada and the US as well as other countries. And people wonder why we can't get a handle on this.

[NMTraveller]

4 minutes ago, Blackduck59 said:

 

Having the opportunity to get vaccinated and actually being vaccinated are 2 different things. 

I am not sure why you think that we should cater to the antivaxxers.  

 

We are doing quite fine as far as getting everyone who wants to be vaccinated vaccinated.

[Blackduck59]

Just now, NMTraveller said:

I am not sure why you think that we should cater to the antivaxxers.  

 

We are doing quite fine as far as getting everyone who wants to be vaccinated vaccinated.

 

I didn't say anything about catering to anti-vaxxers, I hold them with the highest of disdain. You seem to think that health orders will be overturned by the courts and I have to wonder what the argument will be against the health orders. Also how long before the anti-vax crowd demands their "rights" and expect to travel wherever they want. 

[NMTraveller]

20 minutes ago, Blackduck59 said:

 

I didn't say anything about catering to anti-vaxxers, I hold them with the highest of disdain. 

I am not sure how you would consider a cruise ship full of vaccinated people endangering the lives of others?

 

Anyways the legal argument would be Travel Industry A only has lax or no restrictions while the cruise industry has very strict requirements.  AKA Arbitrary and Capricious.

 

You can fly to an overseas resort and participate in most if not all of the activities you would on a cruise ship.  You can fly to a Vegas resort and participate in most if not all of the activities that you would on a cruise ship.  

 

My bet is that the CDC runs out the clock and drops the requirements right before the case is heard.

Edited April 24, 2021 by NMTraveller

[nocl]

1 hour ago, NMTraveller said:

Do they require this of the hotel industry?  Do they require this of the airlines?  Do they require this of tour companies in the US?  Nope.  Arbitrary and capricious.

 

I believe that the cruise industry has responded.  They said that the CDC plan was unworkable.  Now the ball is in the CDCs court to respond to the NCL proposal.

Let's see unworkable, burdensome, impractical, unfair some of the most common responses by any regulated industry to new regulations. Especially when they are in the political stage of trying to stop them rather than in the negotiation stage of deciding how to implement them. It can be translated to why should we haven't had to before, this will cost us money and we really do not like that.

 

I expect they made similar comments when the VSP program was announced a number of years ago.

[Blackduck59]

1 minute ago, NMTraveller said:

I am not sure how you would consider a cruise ship full of vaccinated people endangering the lives of others?

 

 

I'm not sure why you have decided to start this back and forth. The problem is not with the vaccinated it is with those who don't or won't get vaccinated and then get "fake" certificates thinking they are clever. Just because people can go to wherever and do whatever doesn't mean it's safe and it definitely doesn't mean those folks aren't participating in the spread of the disease. We have just put restrictions on inter area travel here in BC because some people just don't get it or don't care...Gotta party 🙄

[NMTraveller]

4 minutes ago, Blackduck59 said:

 

I'm not sure why you have decided to start this back and forth. The problem is not with the vaccinated it is with those who don't or won't get vaccinated and then get "fake" certificates thinking they are clever. Just because people can go to wherever and do whatever doesn't mean it's safe and it definitely doesn't mean those folks aren't participating in the spread of the disease. We have just put restrictions on inter area travel here in BC because some people just don't get it or don't care...Gotta party 🙄

And the NCL proposal is for all people to be vaccinated.  So I am not sure what your issue is with cruising for an all vaccinated ship?  People who forge a document should be prosecuted.  

[Blackduck59]

1 minute ago, NMTraveller said:

And the NCL proposal is for all people to be vaccinated.  So I am not sure what your issue is with cruising for an all vaccinated ship?  People who forge a document should be prosecuted.  

 

Let's be clear either you are trying to pick a fight or are being deliberately obtuse. I have in no way said I have a problem with sailing on a vaccinated ship. I am saying the same people that were slobs and "entitled" before the pandemic, you know feeling up the food in the buffet, wandering in to food service areas dripping with sweat, just being...Will be the same ones who will either blatantly try to board without vaccines or will have a forged vaccine card. Just read some comments on these boards, the whole "I'm not going to and you can't make me" type. We all wish for cruising to resume and frankly I'm muddling through as best I can with the rules we are given. For me the CDC rules really don't matter, I can't leave Canada because the travel advisory means travel insurance is difficult or impossible to get (I don't travel without insurance). Our next vacation (Cruise and land) is down under January/February 2022 and still may not happen because of the situation in the countries I want to visit (it seems they aren't keen for international visitors). 

[NMTraveller]

20 minutes ago, Blackduck59 said:

 

Let's be clear either you are trying to pick a fight or are being deliberately obtuse. I have in no way said I have a problem with sailing on a vaccinated ship. I am saying the same people that were slobs and "entitled" before the pandemic, you know feeling up the food in the buffet, wandering in to food service areas dripping with sweat, just being...Will be the same ones who will either blatantly try to board without vaccines or will have a forged vaccine card. Just read some comments on these boards, the whole "I'm not going to and you can't make me" type. We all wish for cruising to resume and frankly I'm muddling through as best I can with the rules we are given. For me the CDC rules really don't matter, I can't leave Canada because the travel advisory means travel insurance is difficult or impossible to get (I don't travel without insurance). Our next vacation (Cruise and land) is down under January/February 2022 and still may not happen because of the situation in the countries I want to visit (it seems they aren't keen for international visitors). 

No I was not trying to pick a fight.  I just did not understand that your reasoning was that people would commit a crime in order to get on a cruise ship and that was how people lives were being endangered by forging documents and not being vaccinated.

 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2021 by NMTraveller

[Oceangoer2]

1 hour ago, NMTraveller said:

You can fly to an overseas resort and participate in most if not all of the activities you would on a cruise ship.  You can fly to a Vegas resort and participate in most if not all of the activities that you would on a cruise ship.  

On the other hand.....if you're enjoying your visit to the hotel or resort and covid appears, you have a mode of travel home.  Try that on a ship...unless you're a very good swimmer and/or can contract a helicopter to get you back on land.  Cruise lines have experienced this and know the result isn't pleasant for the line or the traveller.  I'll never understand why anyone would use this argument to compare apples and oranges then expect us to understand the opinion this is "capricious".

[harkinmr]

2 hours ago, NMTraveller said:

Our churches just opened back up at 100% due to Supreme Court decisions that struck down some of the unconstitutional laws.

 

Two words come to mind.  Arbitrary and capricious.  They are allowing the rest of the travel industry to conduct business yet the cruise lines are denied.  It would be difficult to explain in court why Industry A who has implemented extreme Covid mitigation cannot operate while Industry B with minimal changes can operate.  Why cruises with 100% vaccination cannot operate while the rest of the travel industry does not require any vaccination.

Last time I checked, freedom of religious expression is a protected constitutional right.  Freedom to cruise is not.  I know that sounds simplistic, but government agencies like the CDC, and even state and local health authorities, are given wide latitude by the courts in matters concerning public health. The CDC does not have authority over any state or local business or industry.  They do have control over international travel.  I would imagine that if the CDC had more control within a state, then they may have been more aggressive than state and local governments have been throughout this pandemic mess.

 

The cruise lines have not really committed to anything under the CSO.  None, except NCL, have even submitted a written proposal to the CDC concerning how they intend to work within the framework, and other than vaccines and suggested health protocols NCL wants the CSO to disappear.  What they have used as protocols in other parts of the world have apparently worked, but they are still obligated to commit to a specific plan here.  The CSO is not going away any time soon and the lines are now working directly with the CDC to address the cruise lines concerns and try to formulate workable changes to the CSO for a mid-Summer restart.  Let's hope each party does their part.

 

 

[K.T.B.]

2 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Last time I checked, freedom of religious expression is a protected constitutional right.  Freedom to cruise is not.  I know that sounds simplistic, but government agencies like the CDC, and even state and local health authorities, are given wide latitude by the courts in matters concerning public health. The CDC does not have authority over any state or local business or industry.  They do have control over international travel.  I would imagine that if the CDC had more control within a state, then they may have been more aggressive than state and local governments have been throughout this pandemic mess.

 

The cruise lines have not really committed to anything under the CSO.  None, except NCL, have even submitted a written proposal to the CDC concerning how they intend to work within the framework, and other than vaccines and suggested health protocols NCL wants the CSO to disappear.  What they have used as protocols in other parts of the world have apparently worked, but they are still obligated to commit to a specific plan here.  The CSO is not going away any time soon and the lines are now working directly with the CDC to address the cruise lines concerns and try to formulate workable changes to the CSO for a mid-Summer restart.  Let's hope each party does their part.

 

 

 

I agree with you about the "freedom to cruise".  However, we do have a "Freedom of Movement".  

 

Universal Declaration of Human Rights, adopted by the U.N. General Assembly, reads:

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each State.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

 

And that's all it says.  I've got into an argument with someone over this and the were unyielding in their opinion that we have a right to cruise.  They're wrong.  We have a right to travel, but the mode is entirely up to us. Flying is a privilege and not a right.  Cruising is a privilege and not a right.  Driving is a privilege and not a right.  Taking the train is a privilege and not a right.

 

And with every right we have in the US, there are some caveats.  For example, we have freedom of speech, but we cannot yell "fire" in a theater.  Same thing with travelling in that we have the freedom to do so, but every mode has their own rules that we must follow.  With flying and driving, we must wear a seat belt.  With flying, nowadays, you must wear a mask the entire time on the plane.  And with cruising, it appears the majority of the lines are going to possibly require passengers and crew be vaccinated. 

 

Here's hoping the CDC is willing to at least talking about changing the CSO.  So far, that doesn't appear to be the case.  Maybe they'll surprise me, who knows?  But if these cruises in the Bahamas that Celebrity is doing are highly successful, the CDC, IMO, won't have a leg to stand on in terms of preventing re-opening.  it will have been proven that cruising can be safe.  Fingers crossed!

[harkinmr]

11 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

I agree with you about the "freedom to cruise".  However, we do have a "Freedom of Movement".  

 

Universal Declaration of Human Rights, adopted by the U.N. General Assembly, reads:

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each State.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

 

And that's all it says.  I've got into an argument with someone over this and the were unyielding in their opinion that we have a right to cruise.  They're wrong.  We have a right to travel, but the mode is entirely up to us. Flying is a privilege and not a right.  Cruising is a privilege and not a right.  Driving is a privilege and not a right.  Taking the train is a privilege and not a right.

 

And with every right we have in the US, there are some caveats.  For example, we have freedom of speech, but we cannot yell "fire" in a theater.  Same thing with travelling in that we have the freedom to do so, but every mode has their own rules that we must follow.  With flying and driving, we must wear a seat belt.  With flying, nowadays, you must wear a mask the entire time on the plane.  And with cruising, it appears the majority of the lines are going to possibly require passengers and crew be vaccinated. 

 

Here's hoping the CDC is willing to at least talking about changing the CSO.  So far, that doesn't appear to be the case.  Maybe they'll surprise me, who knows?  But if these cruises in the Bahamas that Celebrity is doing are highly successful, the CDC, IMO, won't have a leg to stand on in terms of preventing re-opening.  it will have been proven that cruising can be safe.  Fingers crossed!

Sorry about the double post.

Edited April 24, 2021 by harkinmr

[harkinmr]

12 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

I agree with you about the "freedom to cruise".  However, we do have a "Freedom of Movement".  

 

Universal Declaration of Human Rights, adopted by the U.N. General Assembly, reads:

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each State.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

 

And that's all it says.  I've got into an argument with someone over this and the were unyielding in their opinion that we have a right to cruise.  They're wrong.  We have a right to travel, but the mode is entirely up to us. Flying is a privilege and not a right.  Cruising is a privilege and not a right.  Driving is a privilege and not a right.  Taking the train is a privilege and not a right.

 

And with every right we have in the US, there are some caveats.  For example, we have freedom of speech, but we cannot yell "fire" in a theater.  Same thing with travelling in that we have the freedom to do so, but every mode has their own rules that we must follow.  With flying and driving, we must wear a seat belt.  With flying, nowadays, you must wear a mask the entire time on the plane.  And with cruising, it appears the majority of the lines are going to possibly require passengers and crew be vaccinated. 

 

Here's hoping the CDC is willing to at least talking about changing the CSO.  So far, that doesn't appear to be the case.  Maybe they'll surprise me, who knows?  But if these cruises in the Bahamas that Celebrity is doing are highly successful, the CDC, IMO, won't have a leg to stand on in terms of preventing re-opening.  it will have been proven that cruising can be safe.  Fingers crossed!

I would agree with the freedom of movement concept.  Certainly in this country it has been established that we can travel from state to state without restriction.   We can also leave the country to travel internationally.  But, as you said, all of the travel freedoms are subject to state and local law and the laws of other nations.  We must meet and abide by any laws for entering and remaining there.  As well, we are subject to reasonable restrictions for re-entry into the US, such as the current COVID testing requirement.

 

The CDC started meeting with the cruise line execs on April 12th and working groups of the CDC, HHS, DHS, and the cruise line reps were to start this week.  I believe they will make progress. I think that if the North America restart cruises are successful, that will give more fodder to the cruise lines, but they still need to proceed now with planning within the CSO framework.  

Edited April 24, 2021 by harkinmr

[NMTraveller]

1 hour ago, Oceangoer2 said:

On the other hand.....if you're enjoying your visit to the hotel or resort and covid appears, you have a mode of travel home.  Try that on a ship...unless you're a very good swimmer and/or can contract a helicopter to get you back on land.  Cruise lines have experienced this and know the result isn't pleasant for the line or the traveller.  I'll never understand why anyone would use this argument to compare apples and oranges then expect us to understand the opinion this is "capricious".

I would prefer to be on a cruise where 99.9% have been vaccinated vs. Vegas where there is no vaccination requirement and at best it will be 80 some percent or less.

 

Perhaps apples to oranges but because Vegas has a lesser requirement and would be less Covid safe.  No testing requirements on the plane, at the resorts, shows, etc.

Edited April 24, 2021 by NMTraveller