Florida sues to reopen cruise ports

[KWW88]

5 minutes ago, Mike981 said:

 

😁

The whole situation is fluid. As others have said, the November date could very well get moved again and possibly more than once. I might be in the minority, but I don't believe there is a conspiracy to keep cruising down. One of the reasons we all love cruising, is the unique experience. That unique experience is also going to make it even harder to have proper Covid procedures that work. From embarkation to debarkation and everything in between.
Finally as hard as it may be to hear, there are more important things we are dealing with right now. We are still losing to many souls and one of the fastest growing infected groups is the younger generation and many of those are going to the hospital. 

Wait, what????  Are you trying to suggest that cruising in the US is NOT the number one priority of the CDC!?!  🤣

[D C]

4 hours ago, K.T.B. said:

 

Well, Secretary of Transportation has a response to that:

 

https://news.yahoo.com/cruise-ships-could-resume-sailing-by-mid-summer-buttigieg-says-190728426.html

You'd think the guy was a politician by his non-answer. 

[Ride-The-Waves]

4 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

I could be wrong, but I thought only those cruise ships currently scheduled to dock at a US post prior to Nov 1st needed to be on the list.

 

All cruise ships operating in U.S. waters, or seeking to operate in U.S. waters, must comply with all of the requirements under the Framework for Conditional Sailing Order and Technical Instructions even when outside U.S. waters.

 

The quote doesn't mention a "sell (or sail by) by" date.  We are scheduled to TA on Sky Princess which is scheduled to arrive Port Everglades on 20 Nov from the UK.  She is not included as a "greenie."

[nocl]

8 minutes ago, D C said:

You'd think the guy was a politician by his non-answer. 

 

To me it appears that his answer was consistent with the CDC comments that cruising could be taking place out of US ports this summer if the cruise lines do what the CDC is asking

[nocl]

9 minutes ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

The quote doesn't mention a "sell (or sail by) by" date.  We are scheduled to TA on Sky Princess which is scheduled to arrive Port Everglades on 20 Nov from the UK.  She is not included as a "greenie."

They do need to submit EDC forms for the 28 day period prior to their arrival in US waters and comply with all of the other crew protection requirements before they could get green status.

[KWW88]

11 minutes ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

The quote doesn't mention a "sell (or sail by) by" date.  We are scheduled to TA on Sky Princess which is scheduled to arrive Port Everglades on 20 Nov from the UK.  She is not included as a "greenie."

I certainly hope that your TA can sail!!

[Ken the cruiser]

9 minutes ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

The quote doesn't mention a "sell (or sail by) by" date.  We are scheduled to TA on Sky Princess which is scheduled to arrive Port Everglades on 20 Nov from the UK.  She is not included as a "greenie."

You are correct, but the Nov 1, 2021 date is listed in the following document which is referenced in the "Code" document I pulled the quote from that was listed in my above post:

 

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/covid19-cruiseships.html

[cruisemom42]

3 hours ago, 4774Papa said:

It may have been reasonable to lock down for a period of time, certainly this past year, but CDC has locked cruises down until November.  Not sure that is reasonable.

 

CDC has given the ships a path forward if they want to start sailing before November. None of them seem terribly keen to follow it.

 

3 hours ago, RiotAct said:

besides, you know, the whole vaccine thing.

 

Besides, you know, the new variants. One of which is apt to emerge that is both relatively immune to the vaccine and also relatively infective -- the longer we allow the current virus to keep infecting others and jumping from person to person. 

 

And for those who say "It couldn't happen,"  what would you have said in 2019 if someone tried to tell you what would happen in 2020?

 

[K.T.B.]

3 hours ago, wrk2cruise said:

We also have to remember that Nov 1 is the current expiration date of the CSO.  Nothing saying it won't be modified/extended/replaced with something which lasts longer.

 

If the CDC extends it, cruise lines will fight back HARD.

 

People are being vaccinated.  Cruising can be be safely done once enough people have been vaccinated and the entire ship full of people (absolutely no less than 100%) are vaccinated.

 

Now the CDC has given the cruise lines a chance to do what they need to do to get ready and, IMO, I think they're damn close.  There are still some logistics that need to applied and they need to either "crap or get off the pot" in terms of vaccinated passengers and crew.  I truly believe the majority of those who want to cruise have no issues with whatever rules need to updated and used to make sure everyone remains healthy.

 

 

Edited April 11, 2021 by K.T.B.

[K.T.B.]

1 hour ago, KWW88 said:

Yes but he has taken proof of vaccine out of the equation

 

HE may have, but the federal government and CDC has final word.  

 

Trust me, he'll blink if proof of vaccinations are required by cruise lines in order to start cruising again.

[nocl]

1 hour ago, K.T.B. said:

 

If the CDC extends it, cruise lines will fight back HARD.

 

People are being vaccinated.  Cruising can be be safely done once enough people have been vaccinated and the entire ship full of people (absolutely no less than 100%) are vaccinated.

 

Now the CDC has given the cruise lines a chance to do what they need to do to get ready and, IMO, I think they're damn close.  There are still some logistics that need to applied and they need to either "crap or get off the pot" in terms of vaccinated passengers and crew.  I truly believe the majority of those who want to cruise have no issues with whatever rules need to updated and used to make sure everyone remains healthy.

 

 

What exactly do you think that they will do that they are not doing now?

 

 

 

[K.T.B.]

3 hours ago, nocl said:

What exactly do you think that they will do that they are not doing now?

 

 

 

 

Right now this is a strong tropical storm.  If the CDC extends the order past Nov. 1, I expect to see a category 6 hurricane.  (Yeah, a new classification would be needed...)

[nocl]

4 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

Right now this is a strong tropical storm.  If the CDC extends the order past Nov. 1, I expect to see a category 6 hurricane.  (Yeah, a new classification would be needed...)

Doing exactly what?  They are already pushing their lobbying effort without much success, the bills in Congress are in subcommittee, not even move to the committee level, unlikely to make it out of their.  They have sent there letters to their customers asking them to write congress.  They have utilized their Florida ports card.  Very unlikely to get much traction in Washington, California and New York the other major cruise port areas.  I guess there is always Texas.  So what cards do you think they have left to play?

 

When it comes to lobbying and politics what the cruise line is doing so far isn't enough of a wind to fly a kite.

Edited April 12, 2021 by nocl

[lyndarra]

8 hours ago, KWW88 said:

Curious as to why he did not file this suit prior to Jan 20, when there was a different administration and CDC director, who issued the original order?  Can't be because of the vaccine because he has also said he won't allow business to require it.  Hmmmmm, I wonder

I kinda wondered about that myself. However, not knowing how governments operate in your part of the world I summised that someone would come along an explain - sooner or later.

[KWW88]

6 minutes ago, lyndarra said:

I kinda wondered about that myself. However, not knowing how governments operate in your part of the world I summised that someone would come along an explain - sooner or later.

Dysfunctional is one word to describe it, on all sides here.  Rather sad...

[MrCoachRentz]

On 4/8/2021 at 1:08 PM, K.T.B. said:

Disagree with this statement:

 

DeSantis said the federal government and the CDC had locked down the cruise industry for over a year and it was not reasonable.

 

It was definitely reasonable.  There was no way a cruise ship could've prevented "super spreader events" until there were vaccines.  HOWEVER, I agree now that people are getting vaccinated they can give an actual date as to when things can open rather than dragging it out.

They've been cruising in the Far East for something like 10 mos without "super spreader" events.  By any and all measures, this shutdown has been unreasonable.

[MrCoachRentz]

If by April 19th (Biden's date) the vaccine will be available to EVERYONE in the US, then, starting two weeks after that, we should return to normal.  Positive COVID cases in a vaccinated world are meaningless.  The vaccine doesn't keep you from getting COVID, it PROTECTS you from it's effects.  This is the point DeSantis and the Cruise Lines are making, and why they aren't for vaccine being mandatory.  It is the science (as some like to say).  If people decide NOT to get the vaccine, as is their right, it has zero effect on those that have been vaccinated.  

[Oville]

5 minutes ago, MrCoachRentz said:

If by April 19th (Biden's date) the vaccine will be available to EVERYONE in the US, then, starting two weeks after that, we should return to normal.  Positive COVID cases in a vaccinated world are meaningless.  The vaccine doesn't keep you from getting COVID, it PROTECTS you from it's effects.  This is the point DeSantis and the Cruise Lines are making, and why they aren't for vaccine being mandatory.  It is the science (as some like to say).  If people decide NOT to get the vaccine, as is their right, it has zero effect on those that have been vaccinated.  

Do you honestly think everyone will be vaccinated on April 19th with the J & J vaccine so 2 weeks later all will be back to normal?  (Moderna and Pfizer take 5 and 6 weeks, respectively.  It is going to take many, many months to get all who want a vaccine to get one.

[harkinmr]

56 minutes ago, MrCoachRentz said:

They've been cruising in the Far East for something like 10 mos without "super spreader" events.  By any and all measures, this shutdown has been unreasonable.

Not at all similar situations.  Singapore has had a total of 60,000 cases and 30 deaths since the beginning of the pandemic.  Their seven day average is now 25 cases and they have been below 50 cases per day since last October.  They went into a strict lockdown and they have since had strict protocols for masking and social distancing.  Their population has complied without hesitation.  The US has fared very poorly and we are still not out of the woods, in fact we are headed in the wrong direction now.  

[harkinmr]

55 minutes ago, MrCoachRentz said:

If by April 19th (Biden's date) the vaccine will be available to EVERYONE in the US, then, starting two weeks after that, we should return to normal.  Positive COVID cases in a vaccinated world are meaningless.  The vaccine doesn't keep you from getting COVID, it PROTECTS you from it's effects.  This is the point DeSantis and the Cruise Lines are making, and why they aren't for vaccine being mandatory.  It is the science (as some like to say).  If people decide NOT to get the vaccine, as is their right, it has zero effect on those that have been vaccinated.  

I hate to break it to you, but the cruise lines are making vaccines mandatory (except maybe Carnival).  They know that vaccinated passengers and crew are their ticket to a safe return.  What DeSantis thinks about mandatory vaccines is immaterial.  He does not have the authority (no matter how much he pretends) to prevent cruise lines from requiring their passengers to be vaccinated.

[cangelmd]

38 minutes ago, MrCoachRentz said:

If by April 19th (Biden's date) the vaccine will be available to EVERYONE in the US, then, starting two weeks after that, we should return to normal.  Positive COVID cases in a vaccinated world are meaningless.  The vaccine doesn't keep you from getting COVID, it PROTECTS you from it's effects.  This is the point DeSantis and the Cruise Lines are making, and why they aren't for vaccine being mandatory.  It is the science (as some like to say).  If people decide NOT to get the vaccine, as is their right, it has zero effect on those that have been vaccinated.  

I have heard people make this argument, but it is specious.

The CDC is not trying to stop bullhead... Americans from refusing vaccines and getting Covid - we have the right in the US to refuse. There are consequences for refusal, but we are free to weigh those consequences and make a personal decision for ourselves and our minor children.

What the CDC is trying to do is prevent importation into the US of cases caught either at sea or abroad,. A side effect of this is trying to prevent shoreside hospitals from being overwhelmed. CDC and Coast Guard are also I think using this as an opportunity to demand some changes in med facilities that they have wanted for a long time to make cruise ships more self-sufficient at sea (think heart attack, stroke, pneumonia). Requiring vaccines is not a tool in the feds armamentarium, period (other than as an employer, but that’s a different thing). Cruise lines can require whatever they want to within their businesses.

And if you think we are just going to return to normal around May 1, I can’t help you.

I do think some of the CDCs response seems unreasonable - particularly the 12 hour thing - if that is scientifically important, why did we line up on a jetway to load an airplane, why can they use those jetways over and over? But I also  think that the cruise lines have sized up the CDC plan and just can’t make the money they need to make with some/any if the regulations.

 

There is just a lot to unwind to get cruising going again, and every month that passes makes it less likely that the final product will be anything like it was in 2019.

[Ride-The-Waves]

58 minutes ago, MrCoachRentz said:

If by April 19th (Biden's date) the vaccine will be available to EVERYONE in the US, then, starting two weeks after that, we should return to normal.  Positive COVID cases in a vaccinated world are meaningless.  The vaccine doesn't keep you from getting COVID, it PROTECTS you from it's effects.  This is the point DeSantis and the Cruise Lines are making, and why they aren't for vaccine being mandatory.  It is the science (as some like to say).  If people decide NOT to get the vaccine, as is their right, it has zero effect on those that have been vaccinated.  

In 60 percent of US states vaccines are "available to everyone."  There are just no vaccines for everyone.  Take Georgia for example, my daughter's 17 and 16 year old daughters are eligible but cannot get an appointment.  Her husband is also eligible but no appointment.  State distribution is a mess.  The anti-vaxxers remain adamant they will not participate.  DeSantis and the cruise industry don't care about the health of Americans.  The foreign registered cruise industry only cares about $$$.  DeSantis is a politician's and only cares about himself.  If you really want to cruise there are 200,000 merchant seamen stranded on ships and I'm sure one of more will exchange places with you can be aboard a ship.  The efficacy of the vaccine is 95 percent, not 100 percent.  And then there are the mutants...

[nocl]

2 hours ago, MrCoachRentz said:

They've been cruising in the Far East for something like 10 mos without "super spreader" events.  By any and all measures, this shutdown has been unreasonable.

Yes sailing out of Singapore which has had one of the lowest case incidence rates in the world. Where if a case shows up contact tracing is very effective.  Testing is wide spread.

 

Sailing cruises that were short cruises to no where.

 

I expect that if the US were to reach the same disease incidence level cruise lines could safely do 3-4 days cruises to nowhere as well. Of course we are nowhere even close to that incidence level.

[nocl]

2 hours ago, MrCoachRentz said:

If by April 19th (Biden's date) the vaccine will be available to EVERYONE in the US, then, starting two weeks after that, we should return to normal.  Positive COVID cases in a vaccinated world are meaningless.  The vaccine doesn't keep you from getting COVID, it PROTECTS you from it's effects.  This is the point DeSantis and the Cruise Lines are making, and why they aren't for vaccine being mandatory.  It is the science (as some like to say).  If people decide NOT to get the vaccine, as is their right, it has zero effect on those that have been vaccinated.  

Actually the data now says differently.  The original trials did not test for infection or asymptomatic infections, only symptomatic infections.  As a result it was UNKNOWN if the vaccine did prevent asymptomatic infection and/or spread.  As a result that unknown became the myth that the vaccine did not protect from infection only symptoms.

 

Since then new data has come out from new studies is Israel that shows that with Pfizer and Moderna vaccines (against the original strains an B.117) that they do reduce asymptomatic infection and transmission by 94%, very similar to the efficacy they demonstrated in the trials for symptomatic illness.

 

So based upon that data they do protect you against infection.

 

NIH is running a large trial in the US that is expected to complete in August that is also looking at the infection question.  When that completes, if it confirms the Israeli study, as expected, then that would provide the confirmation that the CDC is waiting for.

[Arizona Wildcat]

1 hour ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

In 60 percent of US states vaccines are "available to everyone."  There are just no vaccines for everyone.  Take Georgia for example, my daughter's 17 and 16 year old daughters are eligible but cannot get an appointment.  Her husband is also eligible but no appointment.  State distribution is a mess.  The anti-vaxxers remain adamant they will not participate.  DeSantis and the cruise industry don't care about the health of Americans.  The foreign registered cruise industry only cares about $$$.  DeSantis is a politician's and only cares about himself.  If you really want to cruise there are 200,000 merchant seamen stranded on ships and I'm sure one of more will exchange places with you can be aboard a ship.  The efficacy of the vaccine is 95 percent, not 100 percent.  And then there are the mutants...

Things are changing quickly.  Pfizer is about to request 12-15 year old approval.  Appointments are not difficult.  Certainly varies by state.  Each week another several million people are vaccinated relieving the pressure.

Yes the vaccinations are not 100% effective but the few that gets infected - mutations included - have milder symptoms with few to none hospitalized.  Infection rate after a vaccination is close to zero.  In Arizona we are in the 500 cases a day and falling.

As for anti vaxxers, neighbor 80+ will not be vaccinated because she got ill on a scarlet fever vaccine in the 1950s.  No reasoning with her.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Arizona Wildcat