CURRENT HOLLAND AMERIC's COVID PROTOCOLS

[BlackJack2]

Everyone has been addressing the issue of shore excursions.  What about the quality of the ship board experience?  

 

“Entertainment programs and restaurants will be designed to enhance physical distancing.”

 

Does this mean that the entertainment venues will be limited to just a few guests?  For instance, B.B. King’s Blues Club is always packed to capacity. How will this work?  And the pool area?  On some cruises it is impossible to find a chair.  

 

It seems that not only going ashore will be impacted in a negative way, but also ship board life.  

[cruisemom42]

2 minutes ago, BlackJack2 said:

Everyone has been addressing the issue of shore excursions.  What about the quality of the ship board experience?  

 

“Entertainment programs and restaurants will be designed to enhance physical distancing.”

 

Does this mean that the entertainment venues will be limited to just a few guests?  For instance, B.B. King’s Blues Club is always packed to capacity. How will this work?  And the pool area?  On some cruises it is impossible to find a chair.  

 

It seems that not only going ashore will be impacted in a negative way, but also ship board life.  

 

Very true. I think many on Cruise Critic who are so eager to return to cruising cannot entirely visualize what cruising will be like when it first starts up again -- at least, if the proposals that have been made come to fruition.

 

Keep in mind though that most lines so far at start-up have been sailing at 40-50% capacity. That does take care of some of the crowding problem....

 

[syesmar]

It will certainly be helpful when we know to what extent the vaccines protect against being asymptomatic carriers of SARS-CoV-2. Thankful that they overwhelmingly protect against the disease, COVID-19! How an asymptomatic carrier of the virus could transmit to others who could then get sick with the disease has been the great mystery and complicator of this crisis. I know all of us will be glad when the extent of vaccine protection is known with regards to asymptomatic transmission, plus their effectiveness against variants. At that point, we will have greater clarity on next steps.

 

As far as the 15 minute / 6 feet rule, it’s not a guarantee against infection. For example, the NFL was seeing cases under this time frame and distance. It’s a measure for contact tracing purposes, as it would be too difficult for tracers to contact every single person encountered.

 

I’m conflicted about the shore excursions aspect. While we’ve enjoyed the HAL excursions we’ve taken, we are more suited to doing things on our own. But I completely understand why this would be restricted. For whatever it’s worth, we can point to several bus or van shore excursions where others were coughing in the enclosed space and we came down with a cold, or the flu. One time we were just standing in line outdoors to catch a shuttle but a friend didn’t step away as she repeatedly coughed face-to-face. So we’ve tried to keep those types of situations at a minimum in recent years.

 

I am pleased to read that HAL’s ventilation in public areas and staterooms replaces the air every 5-6 minutes. https://www.hollandamerica.com/en_US/news/coronavirus-travel-advisory/traveling-and-staying-healthy.html

 

Happy (Future) Travels to All!

Edited April 17, 2021 by syesmar

[kazu]

1 hour ago, BlackJack2 said:

Everyone has been addressing the issue of shore excursions.  What about the quality of the ship board experience?  

 

“Entertainment programs and restaurants will be designed to enhance physical distancing.”

 

Does this mean that the entertainment venues will be limited to just a few guests?  For instance, B.B. King’s Blues Club is always packed to capacity. How will this work?  And the pool area?  On some cruises it is impossible to find a chair.  

 

It seems that not only going ashore will be impacted in a negative way, but also ship board life.  

 

Very good points.

I think we are all having a difficult time trying to read the future and how long these protocols will remain in place for.

 

[harkinmr]

Video posted on another board.  MSC Grandiosa experience with protocols.

 

 

[MAVIP]

2 hours ago, BlackJack2 said:

Everyone has been addressing the issue of shore excursions.  What about the quality of the ship board experience?  

 

“Entertainment programs and restaurants will be designed to enhance physical distancing.”

 

Does this mean that the entertainment venues will be limited to just a few guests?  For instance, B.B. King’s Blues Club is always packed to capacity. How will this work?  And the pool area?  On some cruises it is impossible to find a chair.  

 

It seems that not only going ashore will be impacted in a negative way, but also ship board life.  

We could not have dinner or lunch together..... 😉 

Lenny

[idiebabe]

@harkinmr  Thanks for posting this!   This Video is one of the best I've seen from Cruisers on the MSC Cruises post-Covid with covering the Protocols.  

 

We are among the Cruisers who have no problems sailing with these Protocols in place depending on the cost and Itinerary of Cruises we have booked.  We'll make a decision before Final Payment for our 24 Nite Europe Cruise if we'll stay with it or postpone it until next year.  We're unsure if we want to spend the money for the Cruise, Airfare, Pre-Cruise if we are Restricted with the Ship Excursions for this Itinerary.   On our other Cruises booked for the Carib we don't care if we get off the Ship, etc. or do a Ship Excursion.  One of our Cruises is Complimentary and the other two we booked at a very good price.  We normally do one Carib a year for R&R to enjoy the food, the Vino, Entertainment and rarely get off the Ship anymore.  Plus we can drive to the Port! We're hoping by August, 2022 when we have our next "big" Cruise the World will be back to "normal".

 

 

[harkinmr]

1 hour ago, idiebabe said:

@harkinmr  Thanks for posting this!   This Video is one of the best I've seen from Cruisers on the MSC Cruises post-Covid with covering the Protocols.  

 

We are among the Cruisers who have no problems sailing with these Protocols in place depending on the cost and Itinerary of Cruises we have booked.  We'll make a decision before Final Payment for our 24 Nite Europe Cruise if we'll stay with it or postpone it until next year.  We're unsure if we want to spend the money for the Cruise, Airfare, Pre-Cruise if we are Restricted with the Ship Excursions for this Itinerary.   On our other Cruises booked for the Carib we don't care if we get off the Ship, etc. or do a Ship Excursion.  One of our Cruises is Complimentary and the other two we booked at a very good price.  We normally do one Carib a year for R&R to enjoy the food, the Vino, Entertainment and rarely get off the Ship anymore.  Plus we can drive to the Port! We're hoping by August, 2022 when we have our next "big" Cruise the World will be back to "normal".

 

 

Sure thing!  I thought it was very informative, straightforward and honest.  Glad you found it helpful. 🙂

[harkinmr]

4 hours ago, BlackJack2 said:

Everyone has been addressing the issue of shore excursions.  What about the quality of the ship board experience?  

 

“Entertainment programs and restaurants will be designed to enhance physical distancing.”

 

Does this mean that the entertainment venues will be limited to just a few guests?  For instance, B.B. King’s Blues Club is always packed to capacity. How will this work?  And the pool area?  On some cruises it is impossible to find a chair.  

 

It seems that not only going ashore will be impacted in a negative way, but also ship board life.  

The video I posted above addresses dining and entertainment.  It appears that cruisers can only dine with cabin mates or families traveling together.  I had seen this before in other health protocols that were issued.  It looks like with reduced capacity entertainment venues may be limited and even some specialty dining restaurants have been closed.  Social distancing is impacting seating and space in all of these areas.

Edited April 17, 2021 by harkinmr

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, harkinmr said:

The video I posted above addresses dining and entertainment.  It appears that cruisers can only dine with cabin mates or families traveling together.  I had seen this before in other health protocols that were issued.  It looks like with reduced capacity entertainment venues may be limited and even some specialty dining restaurants have been closed.  Social distancing is impacting seating and space in all of these areas.

One of the pleasures of going on a cruise is meeting people. Generally cruise passengers are very friendly. And one can learn from hearing the travel experiences of others.

 

I guess that is another cruise experience that is about to be lost.

[ontheweb]

9 hours ago, harkinmr said:

An infection can occur in as little as 15 minutes according to the experts. Sitting in a local restaurant or bar would certainly allow for that. And I guess it only takes one to cause an outbreak when back aboard the ship. The whole point of testing and vaccines is to minimize the risk. Is that perfect?  It may be close to that given the success of pre-board testing, health protocols and closed excursions on European and Asia cruises. The cruise lines operating in Europe have found a way to provide guests with an “exclusive” experience. 
 

I understand perfectly cruisers’ desire to see and experience ports. For most of us, including myself, that is the main reason for a cruise.  But we can’t call for adequate protections and then start making exceptions to those based on that desire.  A bubble concept needs to be maintained for all our benefit.  That being said, I will not cruise until I am freely able to enjoy all that is so wonderful about cruising which includes freely exploring ports. I know everyone has to make that decision for themselves. 

Going by your first paragraph, I guess we should all go back to living in caves. Do you still wipe down your mail in case your postal carrier or someone in the delivery chain had Covid? Do you wipe down every item brought home from the grocery store? 

 

I already pointed out how the bubble won't really work in any practical sense. And it destroys any real reason to visit a port. I see you at least partially agree with this as you say that you will not cruise until you can freely explore ports.

 

[kazu]

3 hours ago, harkinmr said:

The video I posted above addresses dining and entertainment.  It appears that cruisers can only dine with cabin mates or families traveling together.  I had seen this before in other health protocols that were issued.  It looks like with reduced capacity entertainment venues may be limited and even some specialty dining restaurants have been closed.  Social distancing is impacting seating and space in all of these areas.

 

It was my understanding that if our cruises were linked, we would be able to dine together.

 

At least that’s my hope.  I have people linked with us who we plan (hope) to eat with.

[ontheweb]

9 hours ago, AncientWanderer said:

In my own mind, I have a "pecking order" of safety protocols that I'll watch for before I cruise again.  Some things are, to me anyway, pure safety theater.  My pecking order kinda goes like this, from least useful to most useful:  Health questionnaires?  Useless. People fib because they want to board.  Temperature checks?  Pure theater, as an infected person might not yet have a fever.  Negative covid test?  Nice complement to a vaccination, but the tests are not always reliable and really depend on when one was infected, which could have been on the way to the port.  Masks onboard?  People will remove them often enough to spread virus anyhow.  Bubble for the port stops?  Nice idea, but as @ontheweb posted upthread, the bubble can't really be controlled in public places.  I mean, where has the local guide been before boarding the tour bus?  And then, last but first, there's the fully vaccinated ship, which isn't a full safety umbrella, but offers pretty high chance of protecting against disease, and, importantly, if a passenger becomes ill, they shouldn't be as seriously ill, so the ship medical team isn't crushed.

 

There are some folks on these boards who want to see cruises halted until the virus is eradicated.  That seems very unrealistic, because this virus will probably be floating around the world for a very, very long time.  We aren't living in Spanish flu days, where it can just fade away.  People in those days weren't able to fly around the world and we didn't have an international economy.  So real world, mitigate as much as possible, and get on with things.  I guess the more safety measures are layered, the safer the cruise.  People do have to decide what they can tolerate, and whether "the new cruising" is worth the time and money to them. 

 

Bottom line, tough times for cruise lines...and probably a too long post, but I selfishly needed to sort this out in my own mind.  I really miss cruising.

Thank you for seeing the logic of my earlier post about the fallacy of the bubble excursions.

 

Cruise line excursions are also a profit center. I wonder if the cruise lines will try to keep this concept well after there is even any excuse to keep it.

[kazu]

8 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

Keep in mind though that most lines so far at start-up have been sailing at 40-50% capacity. That does take care of some of the crowding problem....

 

Our Volendam cruise is fully booked for most categories already.  It was switched from the Zuiderdam and people were transferred.

It will be a conundrum if the ship is only going to sail at 50% capacity since it is way over that already.

Unless, they decide to change it back to the Zuiderdam since it now has no Alaska cruises? 

[harkinmr]

39 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Going by your first paragraph, I guess we should all go back to living in caves. Do you still wipe down your mail in case your postal carrier or someone in the delivery chain had Covid? Do you wipe down every item brought home from the grocery store? 

 

I already pointed out how the bubble won't really work in any practical sense. And it destroys any real reason to visit a port. I see you at least partially agree with this as you say that you will not cruise until you can freely explore ports.

 

You have got to be kidding me!  I posed a reasonable question.  You answered it.  I do not propose any such nonsense as going back to everyone living in caves.  You know, I have regularly supported your posts, but I am absolutely amazed at the tone of your response.  I do not appreciate it at all. Absolutely uncalled for.

 

I do have a problem with those who demand a 100% vaccinated cruise with all the necessary protections then advocate for some to leave that protective environment in order to secure their desired result. It does not work that way.  You either buy into the whole package and agree to protect the bubble or you drop your demand.  

[kazu]

5 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

 

I do have a problem with those who demand a 100% vaccinated cruise with all the necessary protections then advocate for some to leave that protective environment in order to secure their desired result. It does not work that way.  You either buy into the whole package and agree to protect the bubble or you drop your demand.  

 

It seems to me that people have forgotten that masks protect others (not the person wearing it).  Until it’s determined if a vaccinated person can transmit the disease (there are already initial reports it may well do so), then all that a vaccinated person need to do is wear a mask in the ports to protect the locals.

I don’t consider the “bubble” on a HAL bus on a shore excursion as a safe bubble by any means.  It’s an enclosed space and I’ve seen enough people go on a a shore excursion that were sick, had Noro, etc.

I would feel far safer with people from the ship that I know and trust in a small private group tour of 4-6 people.  

It will be what it will be of course but I don’t consider ship’s shore excursions a “protective bubble”.  As others have pointed out there are still other locals involved.

I think what counts is using safety protocols and common sense.  I certainly move around here with a mask on as do others in our community and it has worked very well.  JMO.

[harkinmr]

13 minutes ago, kazu said:

 

It seems to me that people have forgotten that masks protect others (not the person wearing it).  Until it’s determined if a vaccinated person can transmit the disease (there are already initial reports it may well do so), then all that a vaccinated person need to do is wear a mask in the ports to protect the locals.

I don’t consider the “bubble” on a HAL bus on a shore excursion as a safe bubble by any means.  It’s an enclosed space and I’ve seen enough people go on a a shore excursion that were sick, had Noro, etc.

I would feel far safer with people from the ship that I know and trust in a small private group tour of 4-6 people.  

It will be what it will be of course but I don’t consider ship’s shore excursions a “protective bubble”.  As others have pointed out there are still other locals involved.

I think what counts is using safety protocols and common sense.  I certainly move around here with a mask on as do others in our community and it has worked very well.  JMO.

Exclusive shore excursions conducted by MSC and other cruise lines already sailing have proven to be quite effective.  There are locals involved, but they are tested and have to follow strict protocols. If cruisers are allowed to go ashore independently, how do you insure that everyone indeed wears a mask, practices social distancing, etc.?  Is someone going to be supervising that person during every part of their travels?  Are those persons going to be wearing a mask during every part of their independent journeys including in a restaurant or bar?  That is the challenge that will have to be addressed by the cruise lines during their initial start. A slight hiccup will be well publicized and very likely negatively impact cruising going forward.  Finally, we must not forget the impact of ports of call.  Right now, Italy and Greece are requiring bubble excursions.  UK will as well.  We will see.

Edited April 17, 2021 by harkinmr

[kazu]

13 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Exclusive shore excursions conducted by MSC and other cruise lines already sailing have proven to be quite effective.  There are locals involved, but they are tested and have to follow strict protocols. If cruisers are allowed to go ashore independently, how do you insure that everyone indeed wears a mask, practices social distancing, etc.?  Is someone going to be supervising that person during every part of their travels?  Are those persons going to be wearing a mask during every part of their independent journeys including in a restaurant or bar?  That is the challenge that will have to be addressed by the cruise lines during their initial start. A slight hiccup will be well publicized and very likely negatively impact cruising going forward.  Finally, we must not forget the impact of ports of call.  Right now, Italy and Greece are requiring bubble excursions.  UK will as well.  We will see.

 

Oh, I agree.  I think ships’ excursions will be required at the beginning and no one wants a misstep.  Whether a ships’ excursion is better than a private guided excursion is open to discussion (not talking about walking around here).

 

Speaking for myself and the town I am in, our masks are worn religiously.  We shudder if we even have one case.  Sadly, I know that’s not the case everywhere.

 

But masks do protect others and if everyone did it, then it would be a moot point.  

However, I think at some point as more and more are vaccinated and mask wearing becomes a habit, it shouldn’t be a mandatory thing to do ships’ excursions.  Of course that will depend upon the countries and ports being visited but I suspect that once vaccination is at a decent level, the countries will lift that requirement.  I also suspect that proof of vaccination will be required to enter those countries.  But, it’s just a guess on my part.



 

[harkinmr]

1 minute ago, kazu said:

 

Oh, I agree.  I think ships’ excursions will be required at the beginning and no one wants a misstep.

 

Speaking for myself and the town I am in, our masks are worn religiously.  We shudder if we even have one case.  Sadly, I know that’s not the case everywhere.

 

But masks do protect others and if everyone did it, then it would be a moot point.  

However, I think at some point as more and more are vaccinated and mask wearing becomes a habit, it shouldn’t be a mandatory thing to do ships’ excursions.  Of course that will depend upon the countries and ports being visited but I suspect that once vaccination is at a decent level, the countries will lift that requirement.  I also suspect that proof of vaccination will be required to enter those countries.  But, it’s just a guess on my part.



 

I agree.  None of this is permanent.  Just to restart successfully.

[ontheweb]

10 hours ago, AncientWanderer said:

In my own mind, I have a "pecking order" of safety protocols that I'll watch for before I cruise again.  Some things are, to me anyway, pure safety theater.  My pecking order kinda goes like this, from least useful to most useful:  Health questionnaires?  Useless. People fib because they want to board.  Temperature checks?  Pure theater, as an infected person might not yet have a fever.  Negative covid test?  Nice complement to a vaccination, but the tests are not always reliable and really depend on when one was infected, which could have been on the way to the port.  Masks onboard?  People will remove them often enough to spread virus anyhow.  Bubble for the port stops?  Nice idea, but as @ontheweb posted upthread, the bubble can't really be controlled in public places.  I mean, where has the local guide been before boarding the tour bus?  And then, last but first, there's the fully vaccinated ship, which isn't a full safety umbrella, but offers pretty high chance of protecting against disease, and, importantly, if a passenger becomes ill, they shouldn't be as seriously ill, so the ship medical team isn't crushed.

 

There are some folks on these boards who want to see cruises halted until the virus is eradicated.  That seems very unrealistic, because this virus will probably be floating around the world for a very, very long time.  We aren't living in Spanish flu days, where it can just fade away.  People in those days weren't able to fly around the world and we didn't have an international economy.  So real world, mitigate as much as possible, and get on with things.  I guess the more safety measures are layered, the safer the cruise.  People do have to decide what they can tolerate, and whether "the new cruising" is worth the time and money to them. 

 

Bottom line, tough times for cruise lines...and probably a too long post, but I selfishly needed to sort this out in my own mind.  I really miss cruising.

Thinking about this some more, I wonder how many of these "safety protocols" are merely theater, much like what we all go through at airports.

 

An airport example, taking off your shoes---In 2015 we flew from Newark to Paris (landing on our wedding anniversary) and Paris to Amsterdam, and finally back to Newark. I had previously broken my left ankle and was wearing a walking boot. In Newark, I pointed out to the security people that the walking boot had a lot of metal. They all wanted to be the one who just walked me through, no problem. In Amsterdam the response was the opposite---TAKE IT OFF! ( I don't specifically remember how I was treated in Paris.)

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, harkinmr said:

You have got to be kidding me!  I posed a reasonable question.  You answered it.  I do not propose any such nonsense as going back to everyone living in caves.  You know, I have regularly supported your posts, but I am absolutely amazed at the tone of your response.  I do not appreciate it at all. Absolutely uncalled for.

 

I do have a problem with those who demand a 100% vaccinated cruise with all the necessary protections then advocate for some to leave that protective environment in order to secure their desired result. It does not work that way.  You either buy into the whole package and agree to protect the bubble or you drop your demand.  

Sorry, if I offended you. It seems to me you want an impossible standard. Nothing is perfect; there will never be no risk.

 

And it does seem that you are ambivalent; you say it has to be that way, but you will not cruise when it is that way.

[harkinmr]

3 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Sorry, if I offended you. It seems to me you want an impossible standard. Nothing is perfect; there will never be no risk.

 

And it does seem that you are ambivalent; you say it has to be that way, but you will not cruise when it is that way.

I don't want an impossible standard.  We are discussing what the current cruise line plans are, which now appear to require full health protocols and cruise line shore excursions only.  That's their call and no one's opinion here is going to change that.  I'm not ambivalent at all.  I have plainly stated that I will not cruise under the current protocols, by choice.  Just as many, many others on this board have said.

[ontheweb]

5 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

I don't want an impossible standard.  We are discussing what the current cruise line plans are, which now appear to require full health protocols and cruise line shore excursions only.  That's their call and no one's opinion here is going to change that.  I'm not ambivalent at all.  I have plainly stated that I will not cruise under the current protocols, by choice.  Just as many, many others on this board have said.

So who is going to cruise? Some will not if everyone is not vaccinated. Some will not if they are required to be vaccinated. Some will not if they are required to wear masks. Some will not if only bubble excursions are allowed.

[harkinmr]

2 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

So who is going to cruise? Some will not if everyone is not vaccinated. Some will not if they are required to be vaccinated. Some will not if they are required to wear masks. Some will not if only bubble excursions are allowed.

That is a great question.  Who will cruise?  It sure sounds like there is a good amount of demand for the North American cruises that are starting up, as well as some of the newly planned cruises for the Greek Isles and the UK.  So apparently there are people willing to sail with some very strict protocols, plus a vaccine requirement.  As I said in an earlier post, I am reluctant to spend a good deal of money to cruise under circumstances that may impact my enjoyment of a cruise.  That being said, I fully support all of the health protocols and follow them religiously in my own life, and am fully vaccinated as of this past Wednesday.  I am concerned about my cruise being interrupted by quarantine or cancellation and associated circumstances.  Finally,  perhaps a deeper concern I have is the potential for conflict on cruises under protocols whether between passengers and cruise line staff or between passenger and passenger.  I want no part of that experience.  My hope is all of the initial cruises go well, that everyone enjoys themselves and I hear great things.  I will look forward to my Spring and Fall 2022 cruises, provided they occur as scheduled.    

[AncientWanderer]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

So who is going to cruise? Some will not if everyone is not vaccinated. Some will not if they are required to be vaccinated. Some will not if they are required to wear masks. Some will not if only bubble excursions are allowed.

 

If I were to guess, I think for awhile it will be people embarking from ports close to home, for more regional cruises, just looking for a pampering vacation, rather than the exotic travel adventures we might prefer.  It seems to be the case in Europe.  Local people are boarding ships.  There is less monetary risk if expensive airfares aren't part of the equation.  Right now, If they had a vaccinated ship embarking from San Diego or Long Beach for a California coastal cruise, I would definitely be on it.  I'm sure others feel the same way with regard to their closest cruise port.