Why Celebrity suites over luxury lines?

[ChucktownSteve]

1 hour ago, TrulyBlonde said:

You have never sailed in a Suite yet ??  There are suites and then there are Suites. Regent calls everything a suite. They are similar to an S-1 cabin on X. Same with  Oceania PH and Azamara suites. Truly just a larger cabin.  I hope you get to experience a true suite and then come back to comment.

Hope you enjoy your cruises and your suite experience.

 

I would have sailed in a suite earlier but then the pandemic hit.  I was just at the cusp of stepping up.

 

What level do you consider a true suite?  I looked at cabin size, benefits and itinerary for the price when deciding.  I have both Concierge and Penthouse "suites" on three different size Regent ships  I gotta start somewhere...toe in the water so to speak. Although I don't think I want to spend $20K pp to experience those true suites if that's to what you're referring. lol

 

Cruising to me is not just about the cabin or suite.  It's what surrounds it.  I was attracted to Regent after looking at the menus and all included restaurants.  I consider myself somewhat of a foodie without being pretentious about it. I just like better food preparations.  I found that lacking in the past unless you ponied up for specialty restaurants.

 

We were able to book our included tours one year out. I signed us up for a total of 21 excursions at no additional fee.  One includes a Halifax lobster lunch while another a pub crawl.  I felt that was added value.

Edited May 24, 2021 by ChucktownSteve

[PNW Traveler]

41 minutes ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

Not TrulyBlonde (and I am interested in seeing her take), but I have sailed on Viking Oceans.  The ships are elegant and luxurious – Nordic but not sterile, everything looks beautiful and even feels luxurious (e.g. leather on the handrails) – and never crowded.  Soft unobtrusive music in public areas [unlike the jarring loud music on our last Celebrity cruises].  Emphasis on history [our ship, Viking Sun, had a small museum of viking artifacts and the main stair artwork was cumulatively a reproduction of the entire Bayeux tapestry]

 

The cabins are well laid out and the furniture is comfortable; heated bathroom floors and self-opening drapes; plenty of storage. 

 

The MDR food is excellent, and the specialty restaurants are free and the Chef's Table [also free] menus change every two days so you can go early and often.  Included wines were ok but you are allowed to bring your own wine with no corkage fee. 

 

Entertainment was much richer than we expected on such a smallish ship; only four main singers but they were unusually talented and the show band was excellent, specialty acts were also very good and varied.  Four enrichment speakers.

 

Even the things that are missing were a plus:  no casino, no art auctions, no photographers, no kids, and no hawkers outside the shops onboard.

 

The only downsides for us were:  most itineraries are smorgasbord type aimed at cruisers new to an area, so we haven't booked a second cruise on Viking even though we really liked our British Isles Explorer.  And the included excursions were basic so we didn't take any – which really changed the value proposition.  We took four optional excursions that had unusual itineraries and couldn't be done on your own, but the rest were the standard tours available on most cruise lines.

 

I would also point out that Viking is now branching out into two new areas, where they look to be trend setters worth watching:  expedition cruising with the Octantis and Polaris (378 pax), and Mississippi River cruising with ships that don't look like they were built by Robert Fulton.  Both seem aimed at the same upper-premium level where I would put Viking Oceans [rather than the lower-premium level of Viking Rivers' European cruises].

Thanks for posting re Viking Oceans. We are port focused cruisers and generally book based on itinerary plus private tour options. The Viking Oceans ships seem like a good fit for us but I haven't been impressed with their itineraries.

[Shadow9612]

1 hour ago, TrulyBlonde said:

You have never sailed in a Suite yet ??  There are suites and then there are Suites. Regent calls everything a suite. They are similar to an S-1 cabin on X. Same with  Oceania PH and Azamara suites. Truly just a larger cabin.  I hope you get to experience a true suite and then come back to comment.

Hope you enjoy your cruises and your suite experience.

 

Could you elaborate a little more?   What do you consider a 'true suite'?

 

I was fortunate to sail in a Celebrity Suite on Constellation - I was in heaven :).  It was my first (and only) suite experience.  I enjoy learning from others' experiences here as I hope to be able to sail in a suite again one day.

 

 

[Shadow9612]

@Host Jazzbeau thank you for your very detailed posts 122 and 124.  Very informative and appreciated.

[Treasure Hunter]

3 hours ago, ChucktownSteve said:

 

 

Jazzbeau, what is the purpose and appeal of a ship within a ship?  Isn't it segregation of passengers who pony up to be away from the masses?

 

For me it's not so much the type of people on the ship but the mass of people to whom you are competing for a seat at dinner, the show or any program.  Walking down the passageways when a show lets out is not my idea of luxury. 

 

I would rather be on a 750 to 1,200 passenger ship.  The larger mass market ships I understand. It's about higher revenue the more soles carried on board.  But nearly 3,000 passengers on Edge, 3,260 on Beyond and NCL's Prima or 5,600 on Odyssey of the Seas?  None of that is luxury to me just because the suite is. 

 

I've never sailed in a suite yet but have four booked. One on Apex and three on different Regent ships. I don''t believe I can be classified as an Elitist yet (Celebrity CC status aside 😉).  I may enjoy the Celebrity Retreat concept. However I suspect that the ship with luxury throughout, for about the same fare or slightly higher with elevated cuisine and benefits, will surpass the ship within a ship concept.

But then you don’t get the big entertainment and casino. That’s important to me. That’s why we stopped cruising on Oceania and Regent.  The food in the NCL Haven restaurant is as good as the food on Regent ( try the shrimp cocktail and rib lamb chops) plus by being a player I get approximately 30% off my suite rate and have a lot of fun, get to see shows like Choir of Man and Jersey boys. We are booked on the Equinox and the Edge in Celebrity Suites for 2022 and I have been saving my mad money for those cruises.

[Treasure Hunter]

8 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

The elitism I notice whenever this topic comes up is from those who dis the 'ship within a ship' because 'once you leave the enclave you are on a mass market ship.'  Oh the humanity! – and having to mix with it! 

But that’s the best part! You get both. All the luxury and all the fun of a big ship. You get whisked on and off , get your special up front seating, great food , luxury stateroom with amenities and the excitement and choices of a big ship. 

[ChucktownSteve]

38 minutes ago, Treasure Hunter said:

But then you don’t get the big entertainment and casino. That’s important to me. That’s why we stopped cruising on Oceania and Regent.  The food in the NCL Haven restaurant is as good as the food on Regent ( try the shrimp cocktail and rib lamb chops) plus by being a player I get approximately 30% off my suite rate and have a lot of fun, get to see shows like Choir of Man and Jersey boys. We are booked on the Equinox and the Edge in Celebrity Suites for 2022 and I have been saving my mad money for those cruises.

 

That's good for your personal interests.  The problem for me in the Haven or Retreat is you have only one suite restaurant.  Any specialty is at a fee.  Regent attracted me with the 28 day dry aged USDA Prime beef, lobster, scallops, Alaskan King Crab and the specialty dishes throughout. Being able to eat in any of their restaurants is as attractive to me as a casino is to you.  I don't want to have to sit for hours in the casino.  I looked at gambling as entertainment.  It's not a rabbit hole I want to go down.

 

I got over casinos several years ago.  Some people are good at it. Some are lucky.  I don't buy lottery tickets either. lol

 

Enjoy your suites and cruises.

[TrulyBlonde]

11 hours ago, PNW Traveler said:

Your opinion? We have friends who will only sail Viking Oceans.

The ships are beautiful and well laid out with many uncrowded areas for escape. Same for the cabins. Internet is great.

We did British Isles with them because the timing was ideal and we liked the ports offered on this trip. If not for a last minute decision to take this cruise, we most likely would have chosen another line. We had previously booked Silversea for this, but they dropped an important port and therefore cancelled.

 

We like to go out on our own when we tour and their included excursions were rather blah. If it was necessary to take their bus tour, we generally would take off and meet back at the bus. I don't like the included tours on any cruise line. 

 

We found the service to be poor and was not impressed with the food. It was mediocre. The spa was also a disappointment due to lack of training. This all may have been a one off because many people love VO.

 

We personally would probably not cruise with them again. 

[TrulyBlonde]

10 hours ago, Shadow9612 said:

Could you elaborate a little more?   What do you consider a 'true suite'?

 

I was fortunate to sail in a Celebrity Suite on Constellation - I was in heaven :).  It was my first (and only) suite experience.  I enjoy learning from others' experiences here as I hope to be able to sail in a suite again one day.

 

 

This is for you and @ChucktownSteve. 

I find that sailing in S-1 category on X, or what Regent and Oceania etc. call suites, is more of a marketing strategy. They are generally about 300 sq. ft. and a bit larger than your regular cabin. Similar to what Princess calls a mini-suite. However, X changed the S-1 category to include Luminae and Michaels Club/Retreat a few years ago. That is added value and I really do like the S-1Aft suites due to their location.

I have sailed in Owners suites on many lines, CS and PH on X, along with S-1 type category. The size of the OS suites is the difference along with 2 bathrooms. Heaven for DH and I.

 

Please do not misunderstand because I have enjoyed Aqua class, mid ship regular cabins, small cabins on sailboats etc. I love to travel and see the world and having the extra space in the suites makes DH much happier and less cranky. If we do not spend it on our type of luxury travel, our children will.;-))

[Treasure Hunter]

11 minutes ago, TrulyBlonde said:

This is for you and @ChucktownSteve. 

I find that sailing in S-1 category on X, or what Regent and Oceania etc. call suites, is more of a marketing strategy. They are generally about 300 sq. ft. and a bit larger than your regular cabin. Similar to what Princess calls a mini-suite. However, X changed the S-1 category to include Luminae and Michaels Club/Retreat a few years ago. That is added value and I really do like the S-1Aft suites due to their location.

I have sailed in Owners suites on many lines, CS and PH on X, along with S-1 type category. The size of the OS suites is the difference along with 2 bathrooms. Heaven for DH and I.

 

Please do not misunderstand because I have enjoyed Aqua class, mid ship regular cabins, small cabins on sailboats etc. I love to travel and see the world and having the extra space in the suites makes DH much happier and less cranky. If we do not spend it on our type of luxury travel, our children will.;-))

I like your last line! We do what Judge Judy recommended, give with a warm hand”. We help out for special large budget items so that we can see them enjoy , like summer camp for the grandkids and taking them on unique vacations. Other than that, having the extra space on a long trip makes it much more enjoyable. That’s why we live in a modest home and both worked hard our whole lives. Now it’s time to splurge. We don’t drink alcohol so for the Regent trips that were all included I resented paying for other people to get sloshed. We’ll see how the Celebrity retreat works for us. I’m really happiest in a suite on Princess with the super saver fare ( just adding on the WiFi) and getting the Sanctuary 🤞. We always tip above the recommended amount because I never forgot what it was like working for tips. I budget my casino play and so far it has worked out well 50+ cruises. We started out in ocean view cabins when our kids were little but have slowly worked our way up to the Haven, etc. It’s like heaven on earth.

[Dolcevita Diva]

On 5/13/2021 at 3:58 PM, goofysmom99 said:

  2023 absolutely will be new cruise line(s) = Crystal (if they survive), Oceania, Regent, Silversea, or Azamara. I'm already there in my head...body and Visa card soon to follow.

If you do make the switch to a luxury cruise line,  use the American Express Platinum card to pay, as they provide several hundred dollars in shipboard credit (this is in addition to any SBC offers from the cruise line and your TA) and other perks. You don't have to book through AmEx, just use that card to pay.

[TrulyBlonde]

12 hours ago, ChucktownSteve said:

Although I don't think I want to spend $20K pp to experience those true suites if that's to what you're referring. lol

 

 

I must tell you that we have only paid full fare once for an Owners Suite on Oceania. This was a month long trip around S. America. It was worth every dime.

Value is important to us, also. Most of our expensive suites have been paying for an upgrade when prices drop or negotiating the upgrade on specific cruise lines. We have taken many cruises and our TA has been notified many times asking if we want to upgrade. We did not get into the position of being able to pay for suites if we had been frivolous with our spending. 

Our last cruise prior to Covid was in the aft PH suite on Millennium. It really is too large for 2 people and I disliked the Hoppen decor. Cheesy. Would not book it again and would take the RS or CS before the PH.

If a cruise is very port intensive, it is also a waste of money to pay for a large suite. You are rarely in it. We prefer the large suites when taking a long cruise. Just some basic info for you.

[Happy Cruiser 6143]

1 hour ago, TrulyBlonde said:

I must tell you that we have only paid full fare once for an Owners Suite on Oceania. This was a month long trip around S. America. It was worth every dime.

Value is important to us, also. Most of our expensive suites have been paying for an upgrade when prices drop or negotiating the upgrade on specific cruise lines. We have taken many cruises and our TA has been notified many times asking if we want to upgrade. We did not get into the position of being able to pay for suites if we had been frivolous with our spending. 

Our last cruise prior to Covid was in the aft PH suite on Millennium. It really is too large for 2 people and I disliked the Hoppen decor. Cheesy. Would not book it again and would take the RS or CS before the PH.

If a cruise is very port intensive, it is also a waste of money to pay for a large suite. You are rarely in it. We prefer the large suites when taking a long cruise. Just some basic info for you.

 

I agree that the HoppenDecor is cheesy, but oh that balcony and the butler's kitchen!  I'm having my first experience since the Hoppenization next year on a repo with 7 sea days!  Will enjoy every second of that glorious balcony and just shut my eyes at the HoppenCrap.  I know I will miss the lovely dressing table area off the master bath, but will make do.  Can't think what she was thinking when she eliminated that.

[TrulyBlonde]

6 minutes ago, Happy Cruiser 6143 said:

 

I agree that the HoppenDecor is cheesy, but oh that balcony and the butler's kitchen!  I'm having my first experience since the Hoppenization next year on a repo with 7 sea days!  Will enjoy every second of that glorious balcony and just shut my eyes at the HoppenCrap.  I know I will miss the lovely dressing table area off the master bath, but will make do.  Can't think what she was thinking when she eliminated that.

Enjoy! Yes, the balcony is divine. Unfortunately, it is also weather dependent and it was cooler on our cruise.  We asked them to remove what looked like a large laundry bag (it was a bean bag chair) from the deck LOL! We wondered why they left such a large laundry bag on the deck. The quality of the Hoppencrap is what is most annoying. Ikea would be my description.

Just shut your eyes and breathe in the fresh sea air. We survived it 😉

[ChucktownSteve]

2 hours ago, TrulyBlonde said:

I must tell you that we have only paid full fare once for an Owners Suite on Oceania. This was a month long trip around S. America. It was worth every dime.

Value is important to us, also. Most of our expensive suites have been paying for an upgrade when prices drop or negotiating the upgrade on specific cruise lines. We have taken many cruises and our TA has been notified many times asking if we want to upgrade. We did not get into the position of being able to pay for suites if we had been frivolous with our spending. 

Our last cruise prior to Covid was in the aft PH suite on Millennium. It really is too large for 2 people and I disliked the Hoppen decor. Cheesy. Would not book it again and would take the RS or CS before the PH.

If a cruise is very port intensive, it is also a waste of money to pay for a large suite. You are rarely in it. We prefer the large suites when taking a long cruise. Just some basic info for you.

@TrulyBlondethankx for your insight.  I agree with your philosophy about why save it for kids who will spend it.  Except we have no kids so we're spending our nieces' and nephew's inheritance so even better.  That's when I changed my sailing paradigm to suites after checking what the portfolios did last year!  Might as well spend it now before the government takes it later along the way.  They can't take back the money from cruises and remodeling once spent. 

 

Our Celebrity S1 aft facing suite is 313sf.  Then the Regent suites are Concierge 356sf (their smallest passenger ship), Penthouse 449sf and Concierge 464sf. 

 

Since the Regent sailings are more port intensive than sea days, I'm not sure yet if we need to go larger.  But we'll see once we experience what we have booked.  Who knows. I may not enjoy Regent as much as I anticipated and may try another line.  I would like to book Oceania and Azamara again if I like the itinerary and perceived trip value returned for fare. Its all about the experience.

[Treasure Hunter]

2 hours ago, ChucktownSteve said:

@TrulyBlondethankx for your insight.  I agree with your philosophy about why save it for kids who will spend it.  Except we have no kids so we're spending our nieces' and nephew's inheritance so even better.  That's when I changed my sailing paradigm to suites after checking what the portfolios did last year!  Might as well spend it now before the government takes it later along the way.  They can't take back the money from cruises and remodeling once spent. 

 

Our Celebrity S1 aft facing suite is 313sf.  Then the Regent suites are Concierge 356sf (their smallest passenger ship), Penthouse 449sf and Concierge 464sf. 

 

Since the Regent sailings are more port intensive than sea days, I'm not sure yet if we need to go larger.  But we'll see once we experience what we have booked.  Who knows. I may not enjoy Regent as much as I anticipated and may try another line.  I would like to book Oceania and Azamara again if I like the itinerary and perceived trip value returned for fare. Its all about the experience.

If they open up Cuba , I highly recommend the Oceania cruise on the Sirena that overnights in Havana. That way you can see the Tropicana show with 100 salsa dancing showgirls. Just fabulous!

[Happy Cruiser 6143]

3 hours ago, TrulyBlonde said:

Enjoy! Yes, the balcony is divine. Unfortunately, it is also weather dependent and it was cooler on our cruise.  We asked them to remove what looked like a large laundry bag (it was a bean bag chair) from the deck LOL! We wondered why they left such a large laundry bag on the deck. The quality of the Hoppencrap is what is most annoying. Ikea would be my description.

Just shut your eyes and breathe in the fresh sea air. We survived it 😉

 

Actually I think Ikea has better taste than Hoppen.  At least their stuff is functional.  Am doing the Caribbean, so the weather should be fine.

[Texed]

15 minutes ago, Happy Cruiser 6143 said:

 

Am doing the Caribbean, so the weather should be fine.

 

Congratulations Linda.  😊

[floatplan]

17 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

Celebrity was the first to try the ship-within-a-ship' concept, but like Acura they have now fallen behind the leaders

 

X did not have this until recently on Edge and then it is being retrofitted into older ships.

 

NCL was the first with Epic in 2009 that had the ship-within-a-ship all suites area surrounding a suites only courtyard and sundeck. A dedicated Haven restaurant that served all 3 meals with special menus. Its not about avoiding mingling with the rest of the ship, its that it is nice with everything so close that a trip to/from the room takes 2 minutes. 

 

Years prior to Epic NCL on Jewel class ships NCL started the special suites dining where you had breakfast and lunch in a small specialty restaurant Cagney's with a special menu. Breakfast also had all the normal menu but cooked to order in the small kitchen. You can get things like a eggs and petite filet, eggs with lobster and scallops, a frittata.  For me it really sold the suite to eat in quiet small venue with special items.

 

In Cagney's you can see the kitchen and your breakfast or lunch being prepared. For me a major plus is when the trip from prep to table is 20 feet. You get your food as hot and freshly cooked as possible. On M class ships I think the kitchen is 2 decks down. The plate comes too hot to touch, with the eggs sort of scorched on the bottom and stuck to the plate. I assume because it sat under a heat element until someone went down 2 decks to get it.

 

The Jewel class ships had the ship-within-a-ship concept but it was limited to maybe 16 villas on the courtyard, plus the 4 owners that were distant. Once you stayed there you always wanted to come back. Again super short walk to private areas and Cagney's.

 

It's been a few years but last I was on NCL the Haven had a very limited menu of like 8 items (all excellent) unlike Laminae with 14 menus that offers so much variety it is like eating at a specialty. On S ships the food prep has been as good as NCL. I prefer the NCL breakfast.

 

NCL room service for suite guests allows you to order Haven food that is cooked by the Haven kitchen. It is excellent while I find X room service food often sucks like it came from a distant Deny's. You cannot order Laminae food. The butler will meet most requests pretty well but it is not the same. On O or R the room service food is excellent and you can order from Specialty. In the X higher suites you get all specialty free but AFAIK you cannot order it in. 

 

An important reason some pick a Suite is for the Daily Replenished Fresh Fruit Bowl. Likely due to the beautiful bunch of ripe Grapes that are ready to burst with juice and make your mouth water. Other people will look at that Suite Daily Replenished Fresh Fruit Bowl in disgust thinking "I really don't care. Those Suite grapes are probably sour anyway" and walk off very, very scornfully. 

 

 

 

[FlyerTalker]

15 minutes ago, floatplan said:

An important reason some pick a Suite is for the Daily Replenished Fresh Fruit Bowl.

 

Provided in all cabins on luxury lines, either as a standard item or available on request.

 

If a fruit bowl is the big draw.....

[TrulyBlonde]

5 hours ago, ChucktownSteve said:

 

 

Our Celebrity S1 aft facing suite is 313sf.  Then the Regent suites are Concierge 356sf (their smallest passenger ship), Penthouse 449sf and Concierge 464sf. 

 

 

I think from your response one of your Regent cruises is on the Navigator? I had booked Navigator a few years back for Alaska but cancelled and went with Oceania. 

 

The reason for the cancellation was due to people on CC discussing brown water coming out of the faucets and also a terrible vibration in the aft section of the ship. Not sure if it was ever corrected or even could be corrected. Brown water and vibrations was not luxury to me. Just giving you some info I learned here on CC. Buyer Beware.

 

[floatplan]

Sorry to confuse you. The Fruit Bowl is a metaphor.

[takemewithyou]

This has been a very interesting read……especially appreciating your perspective @TrulyBlonde.  Please keep sharing info!  We are Elite Plus with X but don’t expect to ever reach Zenith…..just not that pleased with the direction X is taking.  Don’t like bigger ships.  M class is our favorite.  
 

Like Azamara and have a couple future cruises booked with them.  In the future, we are open to other cruiselines.  Had a Regent cruise booked on Navigator a few years ago, but read what @TrulyBlonde read about brown water and cancelled. Tried Oceania in a balcony cabin……accommodations were nice, but missed 2 ports (not uncommon with them) and it was just the same every day for 17 days……monotonous!  A little too quiet for us!  It may have just been the clientele on that 17 day cruise…..may have been a one off!
 

Was  considering Viking Ocean….now not too sure after reading comments here about the included excursions not really being that interesting.  We do like to book our own excursions.  @Orator, surprised to see you left X, but it sounds like it was a good move!  I have always enjoyed your commentary.  Sounds like maybe we need to try Crystal, that might be a good fit for us down the road.  Is it still formal attire in the evenings on Crystal?  We can do that, but if we are traveling far, it has been convenient to not have to deal with that.

Thanks everyone for the discussion.  Please keep it coming!  It has been enlightening!

[TrulyBlonde]

20 minutes ago, takemewithyou said:

 
 

 

  Sounds like maybe we need to try Crystal, that might be a good fit for us down the road.  Is it still formal attire in the evenings on Crystal?  We can do that, but if we are traveling far, it has been convenient to not have to deal with that.

Thanks everyone for the discussion.  Please keep it coming!  It has been enlightening!

I am quite sure that Crystal is no longer formal. The cabins are supposedly very small and a bit outdated. I think where they shine is lectures etc. Probably good for a TA. 

I am not ready for the nursing home yet, therefore will pass on Crystal for a few more years. Down the road...;-)

Our go to cruise lines are Oceania and Celebrity.  Oceania for the smaller ports they get into and Celebrity for adult fun. We enjoy the shows and music and a more diverse age group. It keeps us young.

 

I have been on many cruise lines and our choices are based on timing and itinerary. We have never had a bad cruise, some are just different as all of us are in our expectations. No brown water, ever 😉

[Host Jazzbeau]

42 minutes ago, takemewithyou said:

This has been a very interesting read……especially appreciating your perspective @TrulyBlonde.  Please keep sharing info!  We are Elite Plus with X but don’t expect to ever reach Zenith…..just not that pleased with the direction X is taking.  Don’t like bigger ships.  M class is our favorite.  
 

Like Azamara and have a couple future cruises booked with them.  In the future, we are open to other cruiselines.  Had a Regent cruise booked on Navigator a few years ago, but read what @TrulyBlonde read about brown water and cancelled. Tried Oceania in a balcony cabin……accommodations were nice, but missed 2 ports (not uncommon with them) and it was just the same every day for 17 days……monotonous!  A little too quiet for us!  It may have just been the clientele on that 17 day cruise…..may have been a one off!
 

Was  considering Viking Ocean….now not too sure after reading comments here about the included excursions not really being that interesting.  We do like to book our own excursions.  @Orator, surprised to see you left X, but it sounds like it was a good move!  I have always enjoyed your commentary.  Sounds like maybe we need to try Crystal, that might be a good fit for us down the road.  Is it still formal attire in the evenings on Crystal?  We can do that, but if we are traveling far, it has been convenient to not have to deal with that.

Thanks everyone for the discussion.  Please keep it coming!  It has been enlightening!

 

I love Azamara, but if you found Oceania too quiet I don't think Azamara will be much different.

 

Crystal will be transformed if they ever get their new ocean ships, but they did do a major update to the existing ones by reducing the passenger count – now they have true anytime dining and even more space per passenger everywhere.  They are more formal than Celebrity, but nothing like the old days:  no tuxes required.  'Black Tie Optional evenings' require:  "For men, this includes a dark suit with tie, or tuxedo [or 'at least a jacket']; for women, this includes a formal cocktail dress, evening gown or dressy evening separates [or at least 'a dress, skirt or dress slacks and blouse or sweater'].  Jeans may not be worn in any dining venues or lounges, including the Casino, on Black Tie Optional evenings."  A recent change is that there will be NO Black Tie Optional evenings on cruises of 7 days of less.  [DW and I could deal with this, taking refuge in the 'at least' categories...]