Costa By Carnival. Adults-Only Brand?

[BlerkOne]

20 minutes ago, WheresWalter said:

 

No need to convert the kid's spaces, they just won't be utilized during the adults-only sailing.

Wasted space is lost revenue. Kids clubs might generate minimal revenue, but the whole point is to appeal to families, and you just lost those. Adult cruise prices just went up some more.

 

 

20 minutes ago, WheresWalter said:

 

And the kids program staff can roll into the entertainment or cruise director staff helping with additional games and such. 

I would never assume staff are robots and interchangeable.

[BlerkOne]

20 minutes ago, WheresWalter said:

 

To be honest, cruise lines most likely make the most money from alcohol and food. The casino is nice, but not everyone uses that. A friend who used to be CFO for a major cruise line told me that the $125 per person dinner I had in their top tier restaurant onboard (at the time) cost the cruise line $17 per person. Cruise lines usually also mark up excursions 200% from what they cost to run. 

 

At one time it was stated that cruise ships had to run about 35% capacity to break even and everything over that was gravy. As Carnival has been running almost 100% capacity and now turning the corner very quickly back to positive cash flow, you can see how much of a profit is in everything onboard a ship. 🙂 

I can mostly agree with this. Alcohol has got to be a primary source. But sure, excursions, food (more so on other lines), and everything else, including casinos. Even the sales of cabins - the ship has to pay port taxes and fees anyway and even discounted cabins can't get out of those.

 

Things that are outsourced - like shops and spas and art auctions - make money for the cruise line without expenses for the cruise line. Cruise lines don't depend on any one venue for survival. They depend on collecting some money from everyone, filling up the ships, and make it up in volume. Mass market cruising - something for everyone.

[Itried4498]

21 minutes ago, WheresWalter said:

 

To be honest, cruise lines most likely make the most money from alcohol and food. The casino is nice, but not everyone uses that. A friend who used to be CFO for a major cruise line told me that the $125 per person dinner I had in their top tier restaurant onboard (at the time) cost the cruise line $17 per person. Cruise lines usually also mark up excursions 200% from what they cost to run. 

 

At one time it was stated that cruise ships had to run about 35% capacity to break even and everything over that was gravy. As Carnival has been running almost 100% capacity and now turning the corner very quickly back to positive cash flow, you can see how much of a profit is in everything onboard a ship. 🙂 

 

Alcohol is -- by far -- cruise line's biggest money maker, but casinos are second.  In the 1990s into the 2010s, free and low-cost gambling day cruises from Florida to nowhere grew averaged 20 - 40 daily departures.  Most of these were on small boats, but they generally included a buffet, live music and various entertainment (including some short production-quality shows).  Some of them were on full sized cruise ships, like the SeaEscape (in the early to mid-90s, then again in the early 2000s).  Carnival itself operated occasional low-cost cruises to nowhere (I can think of from Los Angeles, Tampa and Baltimore), but they were overnight.  Increased (enforced) regulation plus swelling port fees largely killed this market, but some same-day and overnight cruises still exist.

 

Cruise lines generally rebrand / resell third party excursions (with some additional perks), but the commissions are small potatoes in the grand scheme of things, especially considering the resoruces dedicated to selling.

[Itried4498]

23 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

Wasted space is lost revenue. Kids clubs might generate minimal revenue, but the whole point is to appeal to families, and you just lost those. Adult cruise prices just went up some more.

 

If Carnival designated specific itineraries as adults only, kids' areas would become dead space.  If Carnival designated a specific ship to perform adults only itineraries, they could reimagine the kids' areas.  If word spread that the kids clubs were becoming venues where adults could have some fun ( 😉 ) on adults-only cruises, it'd do more harm than it's worth...

[BlerkOne]

11 minutes ago, Itried4498 said:

 

If Carnival designated specific itineraries as adults only, kids' areas would become dead space.  If Carnival designated a specific ship to perform adults only itineraries, they could reimagine the kids' areas.  If word spread that the kids clubs were becoming venues where adults could have some fun ( 😉 ) on adults-only cruises, it'd do more harm than it's worth...

I agree they wouldn't repurpose them for one off cruises. I doubt I would want to cruise with adults who enjoyed playing in kid themed venues.

Edited June 26, 2022 by BlerkOne

[silvercrikhix]

Some of you seem to keep saying, despise children, etc…

We love all the little ones, but would jump at the chance for kids free cruising…sometimes. 
‘Last cruise was just DH & I, we’d have booked adults only for that one. 
‘Next cruise is 2 adult kids and a granddaughter, so not that cruise. 

2023 cruise is adults only it looks like, so…kid free ship would be most excellent. 
We consider ourselves quite versible and would enjoy either cruise. 
‘The Costa ships do afford them a chance to try something new. 
We hope they do!  

[Itried4498]

55 minutes ago, silvercrikhix said:

Some of you seem to keep saying, despise children, etc…

We love all the little ones, but would jump at the chance for kids free cruising…sometimes. 
‘Last cruise was just DH & I, we’d have booked adults only for that one. 
‘Next cruise is 2 adult kids and a granddaughter, so not that cruise. 

2023 cruise is adults only it looks like, so…kid free ship would be most excellent. 
We consider ourselves quite versible and would enjoy either cruise. 
‘The Costa ships do afford them a chance to try something new. 
We hope they do!  

 

There are oodles of adults-only resorts throughout Mexico & the Caribbean, most of them 4* and 5* and selling at a premium compared to their family counterparts.  In fact, in recent years many traditional resorts have siphoned off portions of their property and/or expanded to create adults-only sections (often marketed as a separate property, or at least a hotel-within-a-hotel).  So it'd be foolhardy to suggest such a market within the cruise industry would not exist. 

 

But this is -- excuse the pun -- uncharted waters within the cruise industry.  Such project could lead to colossal losses if two brand new, high-capacity luxury ships are used during a time of turbulence within the industry.  It'd be far more sensible to designate and market select itineraries as adults-only, and build up from there.

 

There are routes in the Carnival network that could probably support a dedicated adults-only ship.  The 3/4-day Ensenada cruises from Long Beach, for example -- this is not a sun cruise (it's cold most of the year); historically the weekend cruise attracts party people and the 4-day seniors looking to gamble.  Prior to COVID, two Fantasy-class ships operated the itinerary - one of them could've potentially been desigated adults only.

 

 

[Illbcruzn4life]

6 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

You do know Virgin postponed the launch of their next ship until next year at the earliest?

I guess they weighed their options.

 

Either we start sailings as scheduled with staff shortages and supply chain issues or cancel until May 2023 in hopes of things being better by then.

 

Don't think lines for things, and certain items and/or venues not available would be a good start to a new cruise line and could hurt their word of mouth advertising and reputation.

 

Maybe Carnival should have used this logic and not rushed all ships back into service. They're getting by OK and with prices being so low most people are accepting of these circumstances.

[BlerkOne]

14 minutes ago, Illbcruzn4life said:

I guess they weighed their options.

 

Either we start sailings as scheduled with staff shortages and supply chain issues or cancel until May 2023 in hopes of things being better by then.

 

Don't think lines for things, and certain items and/or venues not available would be a good start to a new cruise line and could hurt their word of mouth advertising and reputation.

 

Maybe Carnival should have used this logic and not rushed all ships back into service. They're getting by OK and with prices being so low most people are accepting of these circumstances.

Time will tell whether startup Virgin will make it at all. Neither Carnival nor Royal consider them to be competition.

[Illbcruzn4life]

33 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

Time will tell whether startup Virgin will make it at all. Neither Carnival nor Royal consider them to be competition.

 

Yes time will tell. Not sure how you know if they consider them compettition but OK. I would consider any new comers as competition but I don't run a business.

 

They probably don't consider them much competition since they only appeal to the adults only market but it take away some pax that previously cruised with Carnival.

 

There is enough pie for everybody to coexist

[BlerkOne]

40 minutes ago, Illbcruzn4life said:

 

Yes time will tell. Not sure how you know if they consider them compettition but OK. I would consider any new comers as competition but I don't run a business.

I read it on the Internet, so it must be true. It went onto say how a new niche cruise line is good for all the players. The advertising Virgin does gets new cruisers interested in cruising, and some will naturally levitate to Carnival 

 

So far, Virgin has had impeccable timing. Signed a contract in 2016 for some ships. Little could they predict all the disasters that would unfold after that.

[CruizinSusan70]

8 hours ago, Itried4498 said:

 The concern is that cruise lines may be filling ships, but not at the same per passenger revenue pre-COVID.

https://cruiseradio.net/carnival-how-much-cruise-line-made-lost-post-shutdown-q2-2022/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email

[Itried4498]

2 hours ago, CruizinSusan70 said:

https://cruiseradio.net/carnival-how-much-cruise-line-made-lost-post-shutdown-q2-2022/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email

That’s a de facto blog posting that paints a rosy picture of the industry using a lot of quotes but without a lot of facts.  Wall Street clearly feels differently, and investors (as a whole) aren’t bias, they just want to make money.  

[CruisingWalter]

12 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

I would never assume staff are robots and interchangeable.

 

All cruise staff are trained for multiple positions on the ship specifically to BE interchangeable. If you watch any of the crew members vlogs on YouTube, it's interesting to see just how many roles some of these folks fill. Casino dealer, server, entertainment staff, excursion host, etc...You can see it for yourself on pretty much every cruise when you'll see the same person as a barista, server, restaurant host and sometimes leading an excursion or game. We've seen this multiple times, especially on the smaller ships.

 

With limited crew resources onboard a ship, it's imperative each person can assume 3 or more roles onboard the ship to cover for sick or injured crewmembers or just to help with supply and demand. Some venues are shut down when they're slow and staff reassigned to other areas. 

 

The children's area staff is primarily entertaining the kids, which is why it's a natural switch of those folks over to entertainment and cruise director staff. 

[CruisingWalter]

9 hours ago, Itried4498 said:

But this is -- excuse the pun -- uncharted waters within the cruise industry.  Such project could lead to colossal losses if two brand new, high-capacity luxury ships are used during a time of turbulence within the industry.  It'd be far more sensible to designate and market select itineraries as adults-only, and build up from there.

 

It's a very interesting time for sure. On the one hand, it's turbulent due to supply chain issues and an endemic that just won't seem to quit. On the other hand, we have Carnival, Royal Caribbean and others having record sales days and weeks. The projections for 2023 by most cruise lines is incredibly strong. Costa Firenze will join in 2023 and Venezia will join in 2024, so it's possible for either of them to potentially be adults only. 

 

BUT, I fully agree that Carnival would be much better off offering select itineraries as Adult-Only vs. dedicating a specific ship to the concept. For those who keep saying "well they're going to lose money from the kids club areas which are revenue makers." Knowing how much they make from alcohol and specialty meals, I have to believe Carnival would meet or exceed the revenue numbers if the ship was adults only vs. having kids onboard. Those select sailings would help Carnival determine if the market is there and whether they'd want to dedicate a single ship to the concept. 

 

Now those who mentioned the size of the ships and would Carnival dedicate larger ships to adults-only, Firenze and Venezia are both about 4,300 while the Luminosa (which will be converted to Carnival branding) is 2,260. Luminosa is much closer to the Virgin ladyships which can sail with 2,700. So perhaps, the Luminosa might have been the source of internal discussions at Carnival. 

 

Either way, Carnival potentially stepping into the adult-only market sooner than later would certainly put much more pressure on Virgin. Their signature 'difference' in the cruise industry would be moot and they'd be going up the largest player in the cruise industry. We sail on Scarlet Lady on July 8 and it's going to be very interesting for me to see how much is 'good' different' and how much is 'different just because we wanted to be different.' 

 

 

[CruisingWalter]

8 hours ago, Illbcruzn4life said:

I guess they weighed their options.

 

Either we start sailings as scheduled with staff shortages and supply chain issues or cancel until May 2023 in hopes of things being better by then.

 

Don't think lines for things, and certain items and/or venues not available would be a good start to a new cruise line and could hurt their word of mouth advertising and reputation.

 

Maybe Carnival should have used this logic and not rushed all ships back into service. They're getting by OK and with prices being so low most people are accepting of these circumstances.

 

I wondered this very thing about Carnival rushing back all the ships when we were on Mardi Gras in March. We were sailing full at 5500-5900 on board and it was painfully obvious F&B and cleaning was understaffed. I swear the lead pizza maker was there no matter when I walked by. 6am, 4pm, 12am, he was always there, most of the time by himself. Many tables in the buffet sat uncleaned for 30 minutes or more. Areas of the ship were not cleaned as often as you normally expect. Our service and meal in Guy's Pig and Anchor on our second visit was one of the worst restaurant experiences we've ever had on a cruise. (the first visit was awesome) 

 

At the end of the day, they're running a business and have been able to start posting positive cash flow very quickly. But I really felt for that Mardi Gras crew when we were onboard wishing Carnival had fully staffed each ship vs launching all the ships with 'most' of the needed crew. But dang if they didn't all do their jobs with a smile, 

Edited June 27, 2022 by WheresWalter

[CruisingWalter]

13 hours ago, Itried4498 said:

If Carnival designated specific itineraries as adults only, kids' areas would become dead space.

 

I've seen a few folks post in this thread about the kids areas becoming dead spaces, and that Carnival would lose revenue from the kids' clubs if they offered select sailings as 'adults-only'. It's a valid question,  so here's a real life scenario for everyone to consider.

 

Carnival Glory sailed out of New Orleans this week.

Total Guests 3480

Guests Under 18: 870

Numbers provided by John Heald on his Facebook page, he does this each week giving the total numbers of folks for a cruise. Full sailing stats in the image below including that over 1/3 of the guests are taking their first Carnival cruise.

 

For the sake of this scenario, let's say all 870 guests under 18 partake in the kids clubs from the youngest to the teen clubs. 

 

For the sake this scenario, let's say Carnival offered this as an Adults-Only sailing and we replace those 870 kids with 870 adults. Adults who can purchase drink packages, who can purchase alcohol, who can purchase specialty meals, who can purchase photo packages, who can purchase duty free liquor and other higher ticket items in the shops, who can purchase excursions and upsells both on the ship and on land, who can play in the casino, who can purchase spa treatments and other things I'm certainly forgetting. 

 

In this 'real-life' scenario for this sailing, do you believe Carnival would make more revenue from the 870 kids or the 870 adults despite the kids club areas 'going dark?'  Honest question I'm posing to everyone here.

 

Having a decent idea of the profit margins for all the things I mentioned that the adults can purchase, I would have to believe Carnival would easily surpass, if not double the revenue of the 870 kids by replacing them with adults. Honestly curious to know what the rest of you think. Thanks for the spirited discussion so far!

 

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by WheresWalter

[KmomChicago]

21 hours ago, tallnthensome said:

But why choose Carnival for that experience? You can cruise on Celebrity, Virgin, Holland, and Princess which have few enough kids to even notice them and get a much better cruise experience as an adult. I can't see it being a draw for adults who dispise kids when there are much better choices. If you're looking for the $299 budget no kid special then maybe ......

 

I agree with this. While there are many good points here I just don't see Carnival bothering, period.  I think if they wanted to do it, they would try it on Holland, Princess, or Cunard.  Off season cruises on those lines, as already noted, often have hardly any kids anyway.

 

Frankly I don't really get the value of this concept anyway. Just travel during the off-season if you are without littles, save a fortune and avoid the masses and their screaming rugrats. 

 

Not saying others are bad people or child haters or anything, I just don't get it. 

[CarnivalShips480]

I didn't read all the pages here, but wouldn't it make no sense to have adults only because I saw that Carnival said that they want their ships to 110% so that would mean 3rd and 4th guests. Families would be a huge help there.

[Drazil65]

Some of you seem to keep saying, despise children, etc…

We love all the little ones, but would jump at the chance for kids free cruising…sometimes. 
‘Last cruise was just DH & I, we’d have booked adults only for that one. 
‘Next cruise is 2 adult kids and a granddaughter, so not that cruise. 

2023 cruise is adults only it looks like, so…kid free ship would be most excellent. 
We consider ourselves quite versible and would enjoy either cruise. 
‘The Costa ships do afford them a chance to try something new. 
We hope they do!  

 

 

Agree with this, no one is a child hater etc (or whatever the other references were that were posted). 

 

This whole idea is just an option, it would just be something different for current CCL cruisers especially and does not mean cruisers with small children are being targeted or whatever.  It is just something new and may be a chance to find out if there is opportunity there for CCL.  Each person could choose to take advantage or not, its not that hard.  

 

Not sure why anyone would be so against CCL trying something new and different given the right circumstances.  Again the whole family thing is a ruse since CCL is all about drinking (with and without cheers), smoking (even in 2022 🙄) and gambling, many cruisers of late have complained excessively that with the altered kids club hours they have nothing for their kids to do (hmmm maybe these cruisers would love an all adult theme???).  The Costa ships may present an opportunity to try something different, why not, options can be a good thing.  

[Calnev1]

4 hours ago, WheresWalter said:

 

All cruise staff are trained for multiple positions on the ship specifically to BE interchangeable. If you watch any of the crew members vlogs on YouTube, it's interesting to see just how many roles some of these folks fill. Casino dealer, server, entertainment staff, excursion host, etc...

This I think is a bit of an exageration.  Yes, you sometimes see crew members doing more than one job on a  ship.   Relatively simple jobs, like muster drill.  But the role of casino dealer, for example, is very specialized to the casino.   The dealers must know how to deal and run multiple different games in the casino.   Carnival does not take servers, entertainments staff, or excursion hosts and make them into Casino dealers.   I spend a fair amount of time in the casino, and I make it a habit to ask the dealers at my table where they are from in their country and where they learned to deal.  I have spoken to dozens of Carnival dealers over the years, and every last one of them learned to deal in a land casino or a land-based dealer school somewhere else before being hired on to a ship.  Not one of them has said, "oh, I was doing something else on the ship and Carnival taught me how to deal."

[Charles4515]

1 hour ago, Drazil65 said:

Not sure why anyone would be so against CCL trying something new and different given the right circumstances.  Again the whole family thing is a ruse since CCL is all about drinking (with and without cheers), smoking (even in 2022 🙄) and gambling, many cruisers of late have complained excessively that with the altered kids club hours they have nothing for their kids to do (hmmm maybe these cruisers would love an all adult theme???).  The Costa ships may present an opportunity to try something different, why not, options can be a good thing.  

 

I don't think it is a ruse. It is part of their brand. I am not against Carnival doing it. I am skeptical they will do it on any ship that has the Carnival brand. And the Costa brand is not adults only so why does that present and opportunity?  

[KmomChicago]

4 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

 

I don't think it is a ruse. It is part of their brand. I am not against Carnival doing it. I am skeptical they will do it on any ship that has the Carnival brand. And the Costa brand is not adults only so why does that present and opportunity?  

 

Agreed, I am not against it, I just don't see this prediction coming true; I don't see it as a viable option for Carnival, but obviously we are just playing with ideas and what-ifs here. It's their money, they should try anything they think is a good business opportunity. If it works out, that is great. 

[Charles4515]

24 minutes ago, Calnev1 said:

This I think is a bit of an exageration.  Yes, you sometimes see crew members doing more than one job on a  ship.   Relatively simple jobs, like muster drill.  But the role of casino dealer, for example, is very specialized to the casino.   The dealers must know how to deal and run multiple different games in the casino. 

I think it is an exageration too. I don't know about Carnival but on Casino workers are usually on contract with a casino company not working for the cruise line. Same with the workers in shops. Other workers like servers are on contract for that. I think the workers for childrens activities would be hired for that.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Charles4515

[CruisingWalter]

49 minutes ago, Calnev1 said:

 Carnival does not take servers, entertainments staff, or excursion hosts and make them into Casino dealers. 

 

No, but a cruise line vlogger who IS trained in the Casino is also assigned other public facing jobs on the cruise ship. Other cruise line vloggers have shown similar experiences, "This is my primary job, but depending on what's needed, I also do these other public facing jobs."

 

You CANNOT train a dealer in an hour or so, that's specialized training. I used to work for one of the largest casinos in the world, producing the training materials and it was still all over my head. But Dealers can easily do other roles on the ship, just as they show in the vlogs. So you're right that not everyone can run casino games, but that's one very specialized task that you need specific training for. Entertainment, host, server, excursions, etc... require much less training. 

 

When the crew members themselves are sharing their experiences all over social, it's easy to see what they do and don't do. A "primary role" and 2 or more secondary roles seems to be the norm.