Robbed in Jamaica on CCL excursion, story for sale on Ebay???

[yst347]

i also see he has a notation saying any proceeds rec'd will be donated to international cruise victims.

 

He was a victim, on an international cruise.....maybe he qualifies to keep the proceeds. :cool:

[halos]

http://www.internationalcruisevictims.org/

 

whoa.

some of those stories are horrendous.

[truecruiser]

whoa.

some of those stories are horrendous.

 

and eerily familiar from newscasts.

[Sargent_Schultz]

I didn't know there were pictures of the bad guys.

 

Very creepy!!!

 

I found it to be misleading as well. I wonder if he has a signed release to use that picture in an internet auction.

[Luanne21]

Okay, maybe I should now apologize to the man in the pictures for saying he looks creepy. I thought because it went with the story, he was one of the robbers.

 

I didn't know he was just having a bad hair day!!;)

[kiraryker]

Were these people on a Carnival excursion or just off on their own excursion???

[kwilliams6045]

Sargent Shultz,

 

Thanks for starting this up again. I see you have not changed. Neither have I.

 

I had to put a price on the story to meet the E-Bay rules. When I put the entire story up, some people and/or companies complained. E-Bay was another avenue that I elected to use in order to get information out to those who need it. And do you really think that I put it up there to make a profit? Give me a break. That is a cheap shot and an ignorant one if you ask me. I don't think it was a sick idea, I think it was an "outside the box" idea that works.

 

No, I did not get the workers permission to put their picture up. They were as creepy as they looked. I put the pictures up, because people that have not been there only see the photos taken for advertisement. It's like looking at the picture of a Big Mac...It is not what you get.

 

Machoman,

 

You are so proud of Jamaica and feel so comfortable there, you may want to move to Compton, CA. they have approximately the same murder rate.

 

Just so everyone knows, Sgt. Shultz and Machoman were on the other thread (17 robbed on Carnival Shore Excursion). It is under the Jamaica port threads. It had over 38k views, until it was closed. So far that was the only thread that I saw on there that was closed. I don't think they should have closed it, and I guess Sgt. Shultz didn't think so neither.

 

Please ask any questions that you like. I can post the story here if you would like to see it.

[Luanne21]

Mr. Williams, would you please e-mail me at Luanne10@earthlink.net

I would like to help you get the word out.

 

Thanks

[kiraryker]

What I don't understand if it was a Carnival excursion - why were they where they shouldn't be???? (as someone posted earlier) I thought that you would be safe if you went thru the ship for your excursions - they should be responsible for your safety since your with their tour.

[kwilliams6045]

Luanne,

 

I just e-mailed you the story and a follow up.

 

Thanks for your help.

[*Mach*]

Mr. Williams;

 

I've only stated my opinions regarding one of my favorite places to vacation. I've not degraded you, called you names or otherwise attempted to defame you. In fact, the exact opposite it true.

 

I could give a rats rear end what want to call me but I can assure you that your petty name calling does one thing, it lowers my opinion of you markedly.

 

By the way, there are several threads that have been locked, not just yours.

[Vanessa L]

I went and read this story on the other site mentioned and got goosebumps reading it!! They were held up at gun and knifepoint, with the robbers holding the gun to his 10 year old daughter's head while they robbed all the people on the tour. I have sailed with my kids. I absolutely cannot fathom how horrific this was.

 

And for those that whine about his blaming Carnival for a Carnival tour and saying, "had he flown in would he blame the airlines?" The point is not that it was Carnival per se, but that the cruise director went on and on about the "safety of Carnival's tours" and that his safety was "guaranteed" and that if you "want to see the real Jamaica you have to book a Carnival tour". First, this guy and his family were first time cruisers. Believe it or not, not everyone finds this or any other cruise board before cruising. Some choose not to research something to the nth degree, rather, trust a line as big as Carnival to take care of their safety within reason. Booking a tour sponsored by the ship would give me that implied safety, especially if I was a first time cruiser and didn't know to question this. How many times have you taken a Carnival sponsored tour and EVER expected anything like this to happen??? I mean, really? That being said, if I'd flown into Jamaica and had the pilot or someone else in charge go on and on about the "safety of Delta's tours" and you "must book a Delta tour to see the real Jamaica" and "we guarantee your safety on all Delta tours", then yeah, I would hold Delta responsible for such an event. And yes, I KNOW what it says on the forms about Carnival "not being responsible for anything". However, if they are going to have their cruise directors stand up and tout the safety and "guarantees" of a tour, then they either need to tell the cruise directors to make sure that they verbally warn people that they "cannot guarantee their safety" or they need to change the wording of the forms. One cannot contradict the other, IMHO.

 

And note, this guy wasn't seeking money or even a "free cruise" from Carnival, only that Carnival pay for counseling for he and his family. The sad thing is that it was only after this guy took this VERY public that Carnival agreed to pay.

 

I am a huge lover of Carnival cruiselines, will sail them over and over, but sometimes, even a big company such as Carnival has to suck it up and admit error. I gotta say, if this had happened to me I don't know that just paying for counseling would've been all I sought. Those of you who have kids try and imagine this. It brings tears to my eyes and gives me goosebumps all over again to even think about seeing gun pointed at my son's head and being totally helpless to save him. It is a miracle that a larger tragedy didn't happen here.

 

As for Jamaica, I've never been impressed with it to begin with. From now on, I'm staying on the ship. Sigh. :(

 

PS....Mr. Williams, I am incredibly sorry that this happened to you. My prayers are with you and your family. I hope (though I doubt) that this opens the cruiselines eyes to this port. When does the scale tip in favor of passenger safety?

[kwilliams6045]

Kiraryker,

 

In the shore excursion meeting, the Cruise Director stated that "the only way to see the true Jamaica is through a Carnival Shore Excursion, they are the only ones guaranteed safe". He also stated that they "extensively research" the tours.

 

If they would have researched this tour, they would have found that the area they sent us to was the murder capitol of Jamaica and of course, you know Jamaica is the murder capitol of the world.

 

Also, the Jamaican Gleaner had reported a high and increasing number of robbery and rape reports for that area.

 

The Jamaican Cruise Ship Advisory Board referred to the area as a "high crime area" and recommended extra police security, which they did not have.

 

Now Sgt. Shultz disagrees, but I believe that Carnival failed to provide safety information in regards to the crime in the area, which would have allowed us to make an informed decision. I don't even think that the tour should have been for sale, due to the high risk for crime. Honestly, I don't see why they cruise to the Murder Capitol of the World, period.

 

O.K. Sgt. Shultz...Attack

[kiraryker]

So this WAS A CARNIVAL TOUR??? Ok that is the reason we booked thru carnival and paid the extra $$$ because we are first time cruisers and thought that their tours would be safe because their guides know where to go and where to stay away from??

 

I know it can happen anywhere & anytime but I feel that you pay Carnival to keep you safe while on their tours.

[kwilliams6045]

Machman,

 

What insult are you speaking of? If it was the "Machoman", that was an error, I honestly thought it was your screen name. I appologize for that.

 

If it is about the Compton, remark, you do nothing but defend Jamaica and try to minimize this incident. THIS WAS NOT A PICK POCKET. The Compton remark was to show the reality. Jamaica and Compton have the same characteristics in regards to crime.

[kiraryker]

Kiraryker,

 

In the shore excursion meeting, the Cruise Director stated that "the only way to see the true Jamaica is through a Carnival Shore Excursion, they are the only ones guaranteed safe". He also stated that they "extensively research" the tours.

 

If they would have researched this tour, they would have found that the area they sent us to was the murder capitol of Jamaica and of course, you know Jamaica is the murder capitol of the world.

 

Also, the Jamaican Gleaner had reported a high and increasing number of robbery and rape reports for that area.

 

The Jamaican Cruise Ship Advisory Board referred to the area as a "high crime area" and recommended extra police security, which they did not have.

 

Now Sgt. Shultz disagrees, but I believe that Carnival failed to provide safety information in regards to the crime in the area, which would have allowed us to make an informed decision. I don't even think that the tour should have been for sale, due to the high risk for crime. Honestly, I don't see why they cruise to the Murder Capitol of the World, period.

 

O.K. Sgt. Shultz...Attack

 

I totally agree with you!!! Carnival should be aware of where their excursions are going and make sure their customers are kept safe because these people are not from these areas and are paying carnival to be their guides.

 

So sorry for your experience!!

[Sargent_Schultz]

Carnival is in the cruise business, not intelligence gathering. It is not their job to provide such information, nor are they liable if something goes wrong on an excursion.

 

Carnival (and other cruise lines, airlines, etc) provide a contract which you accept when you accept their service. I suggest you read yours.

 

http://www.carnival.com/CMS/Static_Templates/ticket_contract.aspx

 

 

Shore excursions are independent contractors.

 

10. INDEPENDENT CONTRACTORS, SHORE EXCURSIONS AND OTHER SERVICES

(a) Guest acknowledges that all Shore excursions/tours (whether conducted in the water, on land or by air), airline flights and ground transportation, as well as the ship’s physician, nurse and on board concessions (including but not limited to, the gift shops, spa, beauty salon, fitness center, golf and art programs, video/snorkel concession) are either operated by or are independent contractors. Even though Carnival shall be entitled to collect a fee and earn a profit from the ticketing or sale of such services by such persons or entities, Carnival neither supervises nor controls their actions, nor makes any representation either express or implied as to their suitability. Carnival, in arranging for the services called for by the physician or nurse, all on board concessions, all shore excursion/tour tickets, all pre and post cruise airline flights or other transportation off of the ship and its tenders, does so only as a convenience for the Guest and Guests are free to use or not use these services. Guest agrees that Carnival assumes no responsibility, does not guarantee performance and in no event shall be liable for any negligent or intentional acts or omissions, loss, damage, injury or delay to Guest and/or Guest’s baggage, property or effects in connection with said services. Guests use the services of all independent contractors at the Guest’s sole risk. Independent contractors are entitled to make a proper charge for any service performed with respect to a Guest.

 

 

---------------

 

Carnival (or any cruise line) cannot guarantee guests safety. Hell, the Secret Service can't guarantee the President's safety.

 

(b) Carnival’s vessels visit numerous ports in a number of countries. Guests assume responsibility for their own safety and Carnival cannot guarantee Guest’s safety at any time. The United States Department of State, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and other governmental and tourist organizations regularly issue advisories and warnings to travelers and Carnival strongly recommends Guests obtain and consider such information when making travel decisions. Carnival assumes no responsibility for gathering said information. The Guest acknowledges that the cruise may be booked in a location that is susceptible to severe weather systems, including but not limited to, hurricanes, tropical storms and depressions, and that Carnival reserves the right to alter the ship’s course, ports of call, itinerary, activity and shore excursions to avoid such weather systems and insure the comfort and safety of the Guest and crew.

[Vanessa L]

Carnival is in the cruise business, not intelligence gathering. It is not their job to provide such information, nor are they liable if something goes wrong on an excursion.

 

Carnival (and other cruise lines, airlines, etc) provide a contract which you accept when you accept their service. I suggest you read yours.

 

http://www.carnival.com/CMS/Static_Templates/ticket_contract.aspx

 

 

Shore excursions are independent contractors.

 

10. INDEPENDENT CONTRACTORS, SHORE EXCURSIONS AND OTHER SERVICES

(a) Guest acknowledges that all Shore excursions/tours (whether conducted in the water, on land or by air), airline flights and ground transportation, as well as the ship’s physician, nurse and on board concessions (including but not limited to, the gift shops, spa, beauty salon, fitness center, golf and art programs, video/snorkel concession) are either operated by or are independent contractors. Even though Carnival shall be entitled to collect a fee and earn a profit from the ticketing or sale of such services by such persons or entities, Carnival neither supervises nor controls their actions, nor makes any representation either express or implied as to their suitability. Carnival, in arranging for the services called for by the physician or nurse, all on board concessions, all shore excursion/tour tickets, all pre and post cruise airline flights or other transportation off of the ship and its tenders, does so only as a convenience for the Guest and Guests are free to use or not use these services. Guest agrees that Carnival assumes no responsibility, does not guarantee performance and in no event shall be liable for any negligent or intentional acts or omissions, loss, damage, injury or delay to Guest and/or Guest’s baggage, property or effects in connection with said services. Guests use the services of all independent contractors at the Guest’s sole risk. Independent contractors are entitled to make a proper charge for any service performed with respect to a Guest.

 

 

---------------

 

Carnival (or any cruise line) cannot guarantee guests safety. Hell, the Secret Service can't guarantee the President's safety.

 

(b) Carnival’s vessels visit numerous ports in a number of countries. Guests assume responsibility for their own safety and Carnival cannot guarantee Guest’s safety at any time. The United States Department of State, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and other governmental and tourist organizations regularly issue advisories and warnings to travelers and Carnival strongly recommends Guests obtain and consider such information when making travel decisions. Carnival assumes no responsibility for gathering said information. The Guest acknowledges that the cruise may be booked in a location that is susceptible to severe weather systems, including but not limited to, hurricanes, tropical storms and depressions, and that Carnival reserves the right to alter the ship’s course, ports of call, itinerary, activity and shore excursions to avoid such weather systems and insure the comfort and safety of the Guest and crew.

 

If this is the case, then they should NEVER allow their cruise directors the ability to stand in front of the passengers and tout the safety of their tours. Unless of course, after giving the "we have wonderful SAFE tours here" talk they should then add, "but read your contract folks, if you take our 'safe' tours and anything happens to you then you are SOL. Do not, I repeat DO NOT come crying to us. We just carry you to these wonderful ports so you can take these wonderful, safe tours."

 

FWIW, I've heard many here defend Carnival to the end but when something happens to those same people then they are the very ones crying "about the rules" (a "famous" suitcase incident comes to mind). I've come to see that on this board there are Carnival loyalists galore. UNTIL something happens to them. I just pray Shultz, that nothing ever happens to you. Of course, given your stance here, I would expect nothing less than a post from you blaming NOT the cruiselines (or airlines, or whomever) but a rant about how incredibly stupid you were for believing anything you were told by a "clearly uninformed" cruise director. Anything less would be, well, hypocritical. :rolleyes:

[yst347]

If this is the case, then they should NEVER allow their cruise directors the ability to stand in front of the passengers and tout the safety of their tours.

 

On this point I am in total agreement

 

FWIW, I've heard many here defend Carnival to the end but when something happens to those same people then they are the very ones crying "about the rules" (a "famous" suitcase incident comes to mind). I've come to see that on this board there are Carnival loyalists galore. UNTIL something happens to them. I just pray Shultz, that nothing ever happens to you. Of course, given your stance here, I would expect nothing less than a post from you blaming NOT the cruiselines (or airlines, or whomever) but a rant about how incredibly stupid you were for believing anything you were told by a "clearly uninformed" cruise director. Anything less would be, well, hypocritical. :rolleyes:

 

It has been my experience on these boards that when someone points out the contract of carriage they are accused of defending Carnival. The conclusion I have always drawn from this is that many if not most people never bother to read their contract until after something happens. I just don't see how this can be construed as defending the line. :confused:

[Luanne21]

What scares me is there are people who have not really reading this man's story. I mean really reading it. If you did you would see that he is not asking for much.

 

He is asking people to use common sense when traveling to Jamaica, and other third world ports.

 

He is saying that just because a CD (salesman) says it's safe, doesn't make it true.

 

He is saying that before you go on any excursion, to do your homework, like he wishes he had done.

 

He is telling you what it was like to go through the horror of having your child's life threatened.

 

As far as the rules and regs. This wasn't a hurricane, and this wasn't a doctor, sticking the thermometer in the wrong place, this was something, that should have been expected, and something done about it.

[kwilliams6045]

I think people read some of the contract, just not the fine print. I know that in most cases the fine print is there for liability only. Any business puts in as much stuff as possible to rid themselves of liability, but liability and responsibility are two different things. Carnival is responsible for providing any information available that should be considered for safety concerns.

 

 

Real quick to Machman,

 

You said that our Jamaican thread was not the only one that was closed...You are right the last one closed was June 23rd 2006 and it was also a thread that shed negative light on Jamaica...Isn't that weird. It appears that if a thread sheds negative light on this port, it gets closed. Why do you think that is? Could it be the negative impact it may have on the advertisement here?

 

I'm sure this one will be closed before too long.

[Vanessa L]

On this point I am in total agreement

 

 

 

It has been my experience on these boards that when someone points out the contract of carriage they are accused of defending Carnival. The conclusion I have always drawn from this is that many if not most people never bother to read their contract until after something happens. I just don't see how this can be construed as defending the line. :confused:

 

Don't get me wrong, yst, I get what you are saying. And I agree 100%. The point I'm making, is exactly what you've said here, MOST people do not read the contract beforehand. It is the case that the people who tend to use the "why didn't you read the contract" excuse tend to be those people who've sailed a zillion times and take this information for granted. I don't think I've ever seen feedback from a 1st time cruiser that said, "Oh FTLOG....you HAVE to read the contract." Not once. These are things that are learned after the fact, I'd estimate at least 90% of the time. Unless you are an attorney and are trained to read fine print, always. I say the "defenders" not in a derogatory way, but because it seems to be implied that reading the fine print is second nature to everyone. I wonder if I took a poll (no, I'm not going to post a poll, lol) how many people who instruct "you have to read the fine print" actually did so the very first time they cruised? For that matter, for those that did, and booked a tour with Carnival, EVER expected that they would be held at gun/knife point on any Carnival tour? Especially after hearing the "we are SAFEEEEE here folks" talk by the CD? Call me pessimistic, but I believe that if this had happened to ANYONE who has ever posted, "You have to read the contract" that we would see a "I am so stupid, I knew there was danger and went anyway" post. Call it a hunch. Especially if they were a first time cruiser who had never been to Jamaica and didn't know the TRUE danger because they were not given information to that effect. I'm sorry, but "we are not responsible for anything" on the back of a contract is VERY different than a cruise director saying, "We have great tours but Jamaica is full of crime and you are absolutely responsible for any risk you take going on our tours". Especially if I'm a first time cruiser. But then again, that wouldn't sell many tours would it????

[yst347]

Vanessa, far beyond cruising but in every day life I have learned to read the fine print the hard way. I suppose most people learn this way. What bothers me is that some folks never learn to read the fine print and possibly avoid problems, choosing instead to spend far more effort complaining after problems occur.

 

And I'm not speaking of this poor gentleman and his situation.

[DreadPirateRobert]

maybe he had to put a price on it b/c that is the nature of ebay?:confused: just guessing. i'm not an ebay person, so i don't know. but i do believe he posted here (on CC) stating he did it b/c he wanted to get the word out since it wasn't being publicized.

 

i also see he has a notation saying any proceeds rec'd will be donated to international cruise victims.

 

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm not questioning his story or motivation for a second.

Until I realized EBAY is a good way to reach a lot of people at little to no cost, it just seemed like a strange thing to list.

[railroader]

After reading all the posts I admit I am scared to get off the ship in Jamaica. But to me, if I stay on the ship then I am letting a few people punish me and alot others from not having a good time and the money denied by the hard working people of Jamaica that make their living off cruise passengers. I'm gonna get off that ship, find a JUTA taxi and ride to Cave beach and have fun. I will be carefull but confident, I'm not going to let some low life put a restraint on a vacation that I'm paying alot of money for. :)