Passport question...

[abpmillsww]

I'm sure this is answered somewhere but I'm not sure how to search...

 

Does the $45 passport card work for cruising? We are sailing out of Galveston to the Western Caribbean with no flying involved.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Angela

[6rugrats]

Work in what way? IMO, these cards are a flat out waste of money. No one plans on having to fly home in the middle of a cruise. You don't say when you are leaving, but you currently don't need a passport or passport card to go to the Caribbbean on a cruise. You do need a passport to fly home. If you are going to get a passport card, you should just get a regular passport.

 

 

There are literally hundreds of threads on this topic on these boards. Do a search or go to the government passport page for up-to-date information.

[abpmillsww]

Thanks for your help. I just called Royal Caribbean and I'll just update what they said in case anyone else is interested.

 

He said we don't need a passport to cruise out of Galveston until June 1, 2009 however they recommend them in case you got hurt on one of the islands and needed to be flown back home.

[cherylandtk]

Well, once again RCCL is giving out incorrect information--you won't legally need a passport after June 1, 2009 for this cruise, either. (That is OK, up until last month RCCL was telling everyone a passport was required for cruising after June of this year)

 

But I agree with 6 rugrats:

1) The passport card for cruising gets you NOTHING that a BC and DL won't do just as well.

2) The passport card won't get you on an emergency flight home.

 

If you are going to spend the money, get a full passport.

[AllieInMD]

According to the State Department you will - emphasis added by me

 

LAND AND SEA TRAVEL

The following summarizes information available on the Department of Homeland Security’s website.

• CURRENTLY:
  U.S. citizens need to present either (a) a passport, passport card (available in spring 2008), or WHTI-compliant document; or (b) a government-issued photo ID, such as a driver’s license, along with proof of citizenship, such as a birth certificate.
  
• LATER:
  On June 1, 2009, the U.S. government will implement the full requirements of the land and sea phase of WHTI. The proposed rules require most U.S. citizens entering the United States at sea or land ports of entry to have a passport, passport card, or WHTI-compliant document

 

 

Well, once again RCCL is giving out incorrect information--you won't legally need a passport after June 1, 2009 for this cruise, either. (That is OK, up until last month RCCL was telling everyone a passport was required for cruising after June of this year)

 

But I agree with 6 rugrats:

1) The passport card for cruising gets you NOTHING that a BC and DL won't do just as well.

2) The passport card won't get you on an emergency flight home.

 

If you are going to spend the money, get a full passport.

[cherylandtk]

No Allie, you are not understanding this correctly:

 

"On June 1, 2009, the U.S. government will implement the full requirements of the land and sea phase of WHTI. The proposed rules require most U.S. citizens entering the United States at sea or land ports of entry to have a passport, passport card, or WHTI-compliant document"

 

"Most" does not equal "all". There are several exceptions listed in the WHTI, one of which is RT cruises. Go to the Department of Homeland Security link provided in the first line of your quote and read the entire list of rules. ;) The section on cruisers is under the "Specific Populations and Situations" section.

 

FWIW, State Department only issues the passport, DHS makes the rules on where and when it must be used.

[Robb]

Just bite the bullet and get a full passport. :D They are good for 10 years. Never understood why people are so averse to getting their passport. The cost is no more than one evening of fine dining in a nice restaurant.

[Buffalofirsttimer4]

I'm sure this is answered somewhere but I'm not sure how to search...

 

Does the $45 passport card work for cruising? We are sailing out of Galveston to the Western Caribbean with no flying involved.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Angela

 

Yes it does work, only problem with the card is that if something happened and you have to fly home-you can't. The card doesn't work for that kind of travel. Add the additional money and get the full passport- its well worth it. You'll have piece of mind and its good for 10 years for adults and 5 for kids.

[Livin4Real]

I'll have to find the article but it was mentioned last week that the passport requirement may be moved up to summer of this year.

[AllieInMD]

No, I think you are not understanding this correctly. The linked page is for CURRENT rules - in 2008 - including the wide exception for cruise passengers.

 

The second part happens in 2009.

 

The final rules are linked to the right, and go to:

http://www.dhs.gov/xnews/releases/pr_1206634226418.shtm

Released in March 2009 - with it being effective June 1, 2009

 

I actually looked at the pdf attached - all friggin 151 pages of it. The Final Rules start around page 82 (ugh). The rules are fairly convoluted and pretty much the only exception is a closed loop cruise, starts and ends in the same US Port, on the same ship. So that lets out TA's that start elsewhere and enter US Port. It also lets out any cruise that starts in one US Port and ends in another US Port (don't some of the Alaskan cruises do that? and maybe some repositioning cruises?). It only applies to cruises to certain areas - the defined Western Hemisphere - Central/South America don't qualify for the exemptions under WHTI I don't believe. There are special rules for Native Americans, Canadians, Bermudians (sp?), etc.

 

My guess is that the cruise lines will say it's too hard to keep track of everyone's country of origin and the rules for each group, and which cruises qualify for the 'closed loop, same port, same ship' exemption - and will tell EVERYONE that they need a passport to get on their boats. It's smart business.

 

 

No Allie, you are not understanding this correctly:

 

"On June 1, 2009, the U.S. government will implement the full requirements of the land and sea phase of WHTI. The proposed rules require most U.S. citizens entering the United States at sea or land ports of entry to have a passport, passport card, or WHTI-compliant document"

 

"Most" does not equal "all". There are several exceptions listed in the WHTI, one of which is RT cruises. Go to the Department of Homeland Security link provided in the first line of your quote and read the entire list of rules. ;) The section on cruisers is under the "Specific Populations and Situations" section.

 

FWIW, State Department only issues the passport, DHS makes the rules on where and when it must be used.

[AllieInMD]

That was one of the reasonings of the gov't in making the new rules that was in that 151 page pdf. The reasoning was that cruise passengers are traveling purely for leisure and it would not add much to the cost of an already relatively expensive trip.

 

Just bite the bullet and get a full passport. :D They are good for 10 years. Never understood why people are so averse to getting their passport. The cost is no more than one evening of fine dining in a nice restaurant.

[JediSkipdogg]

I'd love to know what one is considered if they miss the first port and are flown to the second port out of the country. Technically they would not be considered a round trip and would require a full passport to get off the ship on the return back. You might even need a passport to get on the flight to be transported to the second port (if say you have cruise insurance to cover that.)

 

My opinion, it's stupid not to get a full passport for everyone on the cruise. It's always better to be safe than sorry.

[Livin4Real]

Found where I read it may be as early as this summer....page 3 of my Edocs for my upcoming Glory cruise :rolleyes:

[cherylandtk]

No, I think you are not understanding this correctly.

Well, I will allow that you are entitled to think that, but let's try again...:)

The linked page is for CURRENT rules - in 2008 - including the wide exception for cruise passengers. The second part happens in 2009. The final rules are linked to the right, and go to:http://www.dhs.gov/xnews/releases/pr_1206634226418.shtm

Released in March 2009 - with it being effective June 1, 2009

On this we agree; current rules do not require a passport for RT Western Hemisphere cruises....as for the future rules keep reading. Suffice it to say that current rules match the future rules with one exception:

I actually looked at the pdf attached - all friggin 151 pages of it. The Final Rules start around page 82 (ugh).

I have looked at it too, as well as the WHTI, the proposed rule text published on June 19, 2007, the 248 public comments and the actual text of the CFR sections. The relevant CFR sections re: cruising are Found on page 128-150 of the .pdf file:

22 CFR 53.2 (b) 2 (page 135-136)

8 CFR 235.1 (b) 5 (page 146).

The rules are fairly convoluted and pretty much the only exception is a closed loop cruise, starts and ends in the same US Port, on the same ship... It only applies to cruises to certain areas - the defined Western Hemisphere

I will also agree that it rather lengthy and not easily understood unless one has experience with reading the CFR. Which is why the DHS has published a 'simple English' version on its website. (Again, the rules being essentially the same both now and after June 2009) For those that want to read the full text, it is readily available. But your perception of closed loop Western Hemisphere cruises being a minor exception is inaccurate. Closed loop RT cruises represent 92% of all cruises per the impact analysis report published in 2007 with the initial proposed rules. This is not a small part of the cruise industry. The only cruises (the aforementioned one exception) that will have a change in rules from now to 2009 will be one-way cruises to or from the US within the Western Hemisphere, such as Alaska or New England. Those will require a passport/passcard/EDL after June 1, 2009. Ironically, its not because they are cruises, but because they require a land border crossing to get to the beginning or end of the cruise. THAT crossing will require more than a BC/DL.

So that lets out TA's that start elsewhere and enter US Port. It also lets out any cruise that starts in one US Port and ends in another US Port (don't some of the Alaskan cruises do that? and maybe some repositioning cruises?). - Central/South America don't qualify for the exemptions under WHTI I don't believe.

TA cruises, while a small percentage of total cruises, have for years required a passport as they begin or end in a foreign country. As do most, but not all, repo cruises. Same for South/Central America. However, there NO Alaska cruises that begin and end in separate US ports as that is a violation of the Passerger Services Act. The relevant points here being that a)these cruises are a small percentage of all cruises and b) they already require a passport in most cases.

There are special rules for Native Americans, Canadians, Bermudians (sp?), etc.

The other exceptions do apply to Canadians, Native Americans, military travelling on orders and children on school trips. (The only mention of Bermuda is regarding the island as a defined nearby contiguous region. Passports are required of Bermuda citizens).

My guess is that the cruise lines will say it's too hard to keep track of everyone's country of origin and the rules for each group, and which cruises qualify for the 'closed loop, same port, same ship' exemption - and will tell EVERYONE that they need a passport to get on their boats. It's smart business.

You could be right, but I would allow that keeping everyone's country and the rules straight is something they already do, and applying a more stringent rule would leave cruiselines open to lawsuits from shareholders for failure to meet their fiduciary duty to make a profit by artificially imposing a document requirement not imposed by the government. That, and the fact that it was the cruise industry that wrote most of those 248 public comments claiming their business would be ruined if passports were to be required on all cruises.

[cherylandtk]

I'd love to know what one is considered if they miss the first port and are flown to the second port out of the country. Technically they would not be considered a round trip and would require a full passport to get off the ship on the return back. You might even need a passport to get on the flight to be transported to the second port (if say you have cruise insurance to cover that.)

 

My opinion, it's stupid not to get a full passport for everyone on the cruise. It's always better to be safe than sorry.

You have this correct; the rules require a passport for any international flight. If you miss your ship and cannot fly to the next port, you are SOL even with insurance. Ships are not allowed to embark you in a second US port stop unless it is St. Thomas or San Juan as that would violate the PSA.

[cherylandtk]

I'll have to find the article but it was mentioned last week that the passport requirement may be moved up to summer of this year.

 

Found where I read it may be as early as this summer....page 3 of my Edocs for my upcoming Glory cruise :rolleyes:

 

FWIW, Carnival has recently updated their website to reflect the continued use of BC and DL on RT cruises:

http://carnival.com/CMS/fun/cruise_control/EMB_travel_document.aspx

 

And they still wisely recommend a passport although one is not required.

[dforeigner]

The passport card was initially supposed to be use only by those who live on the border and either drive or take a ferry to Mexico/Canada. I am not sure if that is still the game plan. Also, since most States are refusing to switch to the Federal mandated requirements for driver's licenses, not all DLs will be acceptable to board domestic flights in the near future.

 

Before people begin to complain, yes, there are many illegal aliens who have valid driver's licenses and State issued IDs.

[greatam]

The new RFID cards are a JOKE. They are made by a FOREIGN company with VERY little security. Bill Gertz, one of the premier advocates for secure borders and NO terrorists has taken the picture off a new passport card and replaced it with another.

 

And any RFID card-credit, debit, ATM, passport-can be read while still in your pocket/wallet with an easily available RFID reader. Just check out Ebay for purchase of a reader-all the way from $20-2000. Don't think identity thieves and terrorists aren't looking at those readers. A reader, hooked to a laptop/computer takes all the info off the card and puts it directly into the computer. Name, account number, credit card security number, etc. etc. WAAAAAY too easy for problems down the line.

 

I just sent back 100 ComCheck cards sent for our employees. All had RFID technology. I don't need someone using one of our company credit cards for purchases through stolen numbers.

 

And I have put our bank (Chase) on notice that our company will NOT accept RFID tags in ANY credit cards. Please be careful with any new credit/debit/ATM cards you receive. They are supposed to make it easy by just "POINTING" the card at the reader. There are MANY more ramifications.

 

There is a Washington Times article this morning about the NON SECURE RFID passport card. There are soooooo many web hits that the sight is now down. But keep checking or do a Google search for RFID + Passport + Washington Times.

 

OP-GET A PASSPORT. You will be far ahead of the game.

[JediSkipdogg]

OP-GET A PASSPORT. You will be far ahead of the game.

 

The passport I just got less than a month again says it contains electronic information imbedded in it (or something along those lines - I'd have to pull it out to confirm the exact wording.) So what's in a passport? Seems to me like RFID. It's the way of the future.

[greatam]

The passport I just got less than a month again says it contains electronic information imbedded in it (or something along those lines - I'd have to pull it out to confirm the exact wording.) So what's in a passport? Seems to me like RFID. It's the way of the future.

 

RFID was SUPPOSED to be taken OUT of passports or ENCRYPTED as of Jan. 2008.

 

Here is a pretty good article to tell if you have an RFID passport. http://www.hasbrouck.org/blog/archives/001003.html

 

There is no true way to tell (that I know of) to find out if the RFID is encrypted (the point of encryption being no one can read it).

 

Until you know for sure, I would purchase one the "passport wallets" that are readily available in travel stores and even some airport stores to protect your passport from being read by anyone with a scanner. Even our careless government is passing out "sleeves" to keep the passport cards in. http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9056338

 

RFID was designed for FREIGHT shipments. I am in the international logistics business. We use RFID every day-have readers in all our offices for our FREIGHT. If I was so inclined, I could take one to a large airport and probably get around the world on a first class trip on someone else's credit card numbers. NOT VERY SECURE and pretty darn stupid of our government (I think Chertoff should be hung out to dry-he is an idiot, but don't get me going).

[AllieInMD]

I can't go through it while I'm at work - and look - but a couple quick things.

 

The simple language link (original one) was for 2008 - not 2009.

 

As for the 'simple language' one for 2009 - at http://www.dhs.gov/xnews/releases/pr_1206634226418.shtm it does not state ANY exceptions for cruise ship passengers - the only exception noted for 'special populations' is for school groups of minors.

 

From that 2009 'simple language' statement:

The changes that took place in January marked the beginning of a transition period intended to prepare the public for WHTI

implementation on June 1, 2009

. This common sense approach is designed to lessen the impact on individuals and

allow time for travelers to become accustomed to the change and obtain the appropriate documents.

Upon implementation of WHTI, travelers will be required to present a

single

WHTI-compliant document denoting

both

citizenship and identity when seeking entry into the United States through a land or sea border.

Standardized, secure and reliable documentation will enable Customs and Border Protection officers to quickly and accurately identify travelers at land and sea ports of entry. The WHTI secure document requirement is already in place for all air travelers.

 

The only SINGLE document that denotes both citizenship and identity is a passport. I think you can't even fly on the passport card.

 

As for familiarity with the CFR - I am familiar with it, and Supreme Court decisions, etc etc - I was a law student and spent many a day briefing cases and doing legal research into administrative regulations.

 

I still say you are reading it wrong. I also say that the cruiselines are saying you will need a passport because regardless of what DHS says, they will require it. The reality is - and is stated in the pdf - it's a small part of a cruise and it's expense - a pure 'luxury' to those that take them - not business related land travel - and even just on these boards you see people decide it's just easier to get a passport.

 

I don't think at all that they keep everyone's country and rules straight. It's on your to get your own visas if you need them so you can get off the boat in ports - not theirs. If they have 3000 passengers and 2990 of them can get off at X port, but 10 can't get off because a gov't doesn't allow travel between them - they aren't going to tell 10 people they can't be on that cruise. They'll tell them that making sure they have the right travel documents are THEIR responsibility. As for fiduciary duty - it's way more a liability to the cruiseline to dictate what a passenger needs and informs them they need X in terms of immigration in places - and if they are wrong - they are liable. Much easier, simpler, and safer in terms of lawsuits to put the responsibility back on the passenger.

 

If you notice - all the travel agents are saying you need one come 6/1/09. RCCL's website lists "Sea Travel Only (before June 1, 2009)" which is an implication that the rules will be different after June 1, 2009.

 

So - you can argue you read CFR right, and I can argue I am right - the true test will be June 1, 2009. I'm betting on my reading of the rules, and what I've been hearing for some time from travel agents who have nothing to gain by 'deceiving' their clients. Luckily I already have a passport. Guess we'll ressurect this thread in just over a year :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, I will allow that you are entitled to think that, but let's try again...:)

On this we agree; current rules do not require a passport for RT Western Hemisphere cruises....as for the future rules keep reading. Suffice it to say that current rules match the future rules with one exception:

I have looked at it too, as well as the WHTI, the proposed rule text published on June 19, 2007, the 248 public comments and the actual text of the CFR sections. The relevant CFR sections re: cruising are Found on page 128-150 of the .pdf file:

22 CFR 53.2 (b) 2 (page 135-136)

8 CFR 235.1 (b) 5 (page 146).

I will also agree that it rather lengthy and not easily understood unless one has experience with reading the CFR. Which is why the DHS has published a 'simple English' version on its website. (Again, the rules being essentially the same both now and after June 2009) For those that want to read the full text, it is readily available. But your perception of closed loop Western Hemisphere cruises being a minor exception is inaccurate. Closed loop RT cruises represent 92% of all cruises per the impact analysis report published in 2007 with the initial proposed rules. This is not a small part of the cruise industry. The only cruises (the aforementioned one exception) that will have a change in rules from now to 2009 will be one-way cruises to or from the US within the Western Hemisphere, such as Alaska or New England. Those will require a passport/passcard/EDL after June 1, 2009. Ironically, its not because they are cruises, but because they require a land border crossing to get to the beginning or end of the cruise. THAT crossing will require more than a BC/DL.

TA cruises, while a small percentage of total cruises, have for years required a passport as they begin or end in a foreign country. As do most, but not all, repo cruises. Same for South/Central America. However, there NO Alaska cruises that begin and end in separate US ports as that is a violation of the Passerger Services Act. The relevant points here being that a)these cruises are a small percentage of all cruises and b) they already require a passport in most cases.The other exceptions do apply to Canadians, Native Americans, military travelling on orders and children on school trips. (The only mention of Bermuda is regarding the island as a defined nearby contiguous region. Passports are required of Bermuda citizens).

You could be right, but I would allow that keeping everyone's country and the rules straight is something they already do, and applying a more stringent rule would leave cruiselines open to lawsuits from shareholders for failure to meet their fiduciary duty to make a profit by artificially imposing a document requirement not imposed by the government. That, and the fact that it was the cruise industry that wrote most of those 248 public comments claiming their business would be ruined if passports were to be required on all cruises.

[AllieInMD]

Actually - I believe that exact scenario was included in the new rules - passengers who join the cruise after it's underway - don't board at the original point of embarkation - and yes, they need a passport.

 

 

I'd love to know what one is considered if they miss the first port and are flown to the second port out of the country. Technically they would not be considered a round trip and would require a full passport to get off the ship on the return back. You might even need a passport to get on the flight to be transported to the second port (if say you have cruise insurance to cover that.)

 

My opinion, it's stupid not to get a full passport for everyone on the cruise. It's always better to be safe than sorry.

[cherylandtk]

Allie--Since you did not have time at work to look at the actual citation quoted, here is the text of the ruling taking effect on June 1 2009:

 

22 CFR § 53.2 Exceptions.

(b) A U.S. citizen is not required to bear a valid U.S. passport to enter or depart the United States:

(2) When traveling entirely within the Western Hemisphere on a cruise ship, and when the U.S. citizen boards the cruise ship at a port or place within the United States and returns on the return voyage of the same cruise ship to the same United States port or place from where he or she originally departed. That U.S. citizen may present a government-issued photo identification document in combination with either an original or a copy of his or her birth certificate, a Consular Report of Birth Abroad issued by the Department, or a Certificate of Naturalization issued by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services before entering the United States; if the U.S. citizen is under the age of 16, he or she may present either an original or a copy of his or her birth certificate, a Consular Report of Birth Abroad issued by the Department, or a Certificate of Naturalization issued by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services.

 

And you still believe I am reading this wrong?

[AllieInMD]

See you June 2, 2009 :)

 

Allie--Since you did not have time at work to look at the actual citation quoted, here is the text of the ruling taking effect on June 1 2009:

 

22 CFR § 53.2 Exceptions.

(b) A U.S. citizen is not required to bear a valid U.S. passport to enter or depart the United States:

(2) When traveling entirely within the Western Hemisphere on a cruise ship, and when the U.S. citizen boards the cruise ship at a port or place within the United States and returns on the return voyage of the same cruise ship to the same United States port or place from where he or she originally departed. That U.S. citizen may present a government-issued photo identification document in combination with either an original or a copy of his or her birth certificate, a Consular Report of Birth Abroad issued by the Department, or a Certificate of Naturalization issued by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services before entering the United States; if the U.S. citizen is under the age of 16, he or she may present either an original or a copy of his or her birth certificate, a Consular Report of Birth Abroad issued by the Department, or a Certificate of Naturalization issued by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services.

 

And you still believe I am reading this wrong?

[cherylandtk]

Ok, Ok, See you next June :)

 

I still maintain that if passport use was going to be required by the cruiselines (beyond the government requirements) they would have already started doing so. Cruiselines were preparing to start as of Jan 2007 when the first delay was created...and so far, they have all chosen to go with the least restrictive document requirements. If it were a good business decision to require passports, they would already have done so back in 2007.

 

I predict they will continue to line up with the government rules, you think otherwise. So, let's come back here as things change and again in June of 2009 to see where they stand.

 

In the interim, here is the Carnival policy showing the continued use of just BC and DL after June 2009 for RT from US.

http://carnival.com/CMS/fun/cruise_control/EMB_travel_document.aspx

 

And here is the newly updated RCCL policy, again showing the continued use of just BC and DL after June 2009 for RT from US.

http://www.royalcaribbean.com/beforeyouboard/passportGuidelines.do

 

( I have to apologize to RCCL, they were much faster implementing the Final Rule update than in the past:o. In addition, HAL and Celebrity are both updated to reflect the WHTI final rules. Princess, however, is still woefully behind on their website)