Are onboard mutinies justified?

[jtoddjr]

I think in legal terms an unexpected hurricane would be called "Force Majeure".

 

A cruise should be for the adventurous, and people who are looking for new experiences. And this would be one of them.

 

John

[Danjpi]

There was no cause for "mutiny."

 

Nor should there be any compensation for missing ports due to weather dangers or emergencies not controllable by the cruise line.

 

I am almost tempted to make some sarcastic remark about too many lawyers or about this being typical reactions from people living where the ship departed from (NYC). But I won't...since these so-called "mutinies" have occurred elsewhere. It's really disgusting.

 

Larry

 

I'm a newbie, a first time cruiser, so if this is a stupid comment - bear with me! :o

 

A friend who has done several cruises says that Carnival gives passengers an perfunctory on board credit if a port is missed - because she said that they are refunding port fees the cruise line won't have to pay. Is this true? I don't care either way; I'm of the mindset that I knowingly booked during hurricane season, and that's a gamble. IF the cruise line wants to give me a few bucks back because we missed a port entirely (meaning, it was not replaced with a stop at ANOTHER port), cool. And if not, hey, I'm gonna do my best to have a great time, wherever the winds blow us.

 

After reading this horror story, I'm pledging to make an extra effort to THANK the captain and crew for keeping us safe, entertained, and amused. I think the sane members of the cruise community should take up a collection and send it to the poor, stiffed crew members on Miracle, as a sort of karmic repayment for the idiots who behaved so badly.

 

And as for the mutineers? GROW THE HECK UP, you whiny babies - and someone find that lawyer and sue HIM. I think the herd of panicky idiots should all be blackballed by the industry (and they should have been thrown off the ship - LITERALLY! Make these petulant clowns walk the plank! :D) I think the ringleader should face criminal charges or public endangerment and inciting a riot and hell, jaywalking if you can make it stick. I think everyone of the people who pitched a hissy fit should also be forced to make some sort of public apology to all the cruisers whose vacations were tainted by this mob mentality. And I hope that Carnival's lawyers laugh in the faces of anyone selfish enough to press the point in court!

 

So, folks, wish us well on our first cruise. I'll do my part to make the seas a happy place again, and woe onto any idiot who tries to ruin MY vacation with any childlike behavior like this! :cool:

[CWcruisers]

I was on the last sailing of NCL Sea coming from Houston through the canal and ending in LA where the ship was delivered to it's new owners from India. We were scheduled to stop in Cabo but were not told until after we sailed away from Acapualco that because Cabo could not provide tenders to us that we would not be stopping. Because the cruise line made the decision less than one year out and this itinerary was put together to get the ship to the new owners, we were low priority over ships that ported in Cabo on a regular basis.

 

In this case, we did feel as if we had been mislead as I am sure NCL had to have know more than 2 days before we were scheduled to port, that there was a situation with the tenders. We felt we had been sold a cruise that had no intention of delivering the goods.

 

We did not have a mutiny, but the crew had an activity that involved being able to Q & A the ships officers, and we used that opportunity to express our disappointment. We were given $50.00/person on board credit, and than after the cruise, NCL gave us a future $100.00/cabin ship board credit which expired in one year from issuance.

 

My answer to the poll was based upon this incident, maybe depending upon the circumstances.

[TCF]

Just some thoughts.....

1. Captains and ship's masters are not in the habit of discussing or "negotiating" their orders or instructions. The decades of experience they have in earning their papers teach them that first. What the ships Captain and the Officers are charged with is first, the safety of the passengers and the crew; then secoind that the passengers get the cruise they paid for. If "1" conflicts with "2"...."1" always wins!

2. I am not sure what law school teaches meteorology and navigation as part of its curriculum to receive a law degree....therefore i am not sure that I would want a lawyer "negotiating" the decisions of a ship's Captain over what's for dinner....let alone a Captain's decisions about my safety at sea.

3. Cruise in the Carribbean in hurricane season...cruise cheap...take your chances...and enjoy where ever you go even if that is not where you planned to be.

4. Perhaps a Junior Officer should be given some inter-personal communications training and set as one of his/her duties to deal with crazy lawyers and drunks who want ships to be turned into storms and hurricanes. It will be good expereince for them when, or if, they write for their Master's Papers!

Just some thoughts.

[PunkinsDad]

This whole thing can be distilled into a few simple points.

 

The Captain of a vessel on the High seas has absolute authority over his vessel, his crew, and yes, his PASSENGERS. (The use of the male pronoun here is merely a convenience, Female Captains, of course, have equal authority :)).

 

Along with this awesome authority,comes equally awesome responsibilities. The Captain is personally responsible for the lives of all souls on board, as well as the considerable monetary and material resources contained in the vessel.

 

While, he/she may be required to answer to legal and corporate authorities once the vessel reaches port, while at sea, his/her authority cannot be questioned.

 

Persons rising to command of the floating cities that are modern-day cruise ships did not get there by accident. In every case, their skill, character and judgment have been proven, time and again. The authority granted to them has been earned and should always be respected.

 

Any crew member or passenger seeking to incite mutiny (in the case of crew) or rebellion (in the case of passengers) should be confined and put off the ship at the next port. No exceptions.

 

The absolute authority that the Captain of a ship on the high seas holds exists for a reason. Anyone not prepared to accept that authority should not set foot aboard.

 

 

Just my opinion.........but I just happen to be right.

[pjinaz]

How ridiculous. If you cruise anytime, but especially during hurricane

season you have to realize that weather happens and that there may

be changes. Yes, it may be disappointing, but oh well. You are safe

and you are on vacation. What an unappy person with a total

sense of entitlement you must be to attempt to get the captain of a ship

to go into storms or damaged ports to satisfy yourself.

[Zaphod]

A proper "negotiation" would have been to allow the disgruntled passengers to visit the ports they wanted. Just plop them in a dinghy and let them row their way there.

[vclst]

There is no such vessel as the SS France. SS denotes State Ship of the US Navy. The France was NEVER an American ship.

 

However, I agree with your opinion of the "Mutiny". To me you go with the flow.

 

Peter

 

Peter,

 

There was indeed a ship called the SS France...in this case the SS stands for Steam Ship. The US Navy Uses USS...United States Ship. You might know the France by its later name...SSNorway.

 

Bill

[Leejnd4]

quote=Leejnd4: While I voted No -- the captain took the attitude of "Tuff S***, you're a bunch of suckers anyway, we don't care about you or how this impacted your vacations, we gave you a cruise so shut up already." end quote

 

?:rolleyes: ? Is this a direct quote from the capitain? You are the only one who has said the captain said this and you weren't even on the ship??:(

 

Um...you might want to go back and read my post. What I said was that the captain took that attitude, not that he used those specific words. Ask someone who was on the ship and heard the "suckers" comment if they felt that was his attitude.

[PunkinsDad]

A proper "negotiation" would have been to allow the disgruntled passengers to visit the ports they wanted. Just plop them in a dinghy and let them row their way there.

 

 

Amen. I could not agree more.

[DanCruiser]

I would be leading the mutiny!!

If you pay for cruise to three carribean ports you deserve good ports!

Rhode Island and a cruise to a cruise port?????????? Are they nuts!!

They should of rerouted to Burmuda!

If they can't provide three good alternatives they need to refund!!!

[50cruiser]

When I was on the SS norway we went through a storm. Waves were too high the next day to shuttle to the private Island . Insted the ship had special games and quizes with great prizes given away. All the passengers seemed happy with that.They tried to keep passengers happy. On holland america MASDAM 3 years ago we went through a very bad storm all the way back to Virgina for 3 days . all ativities were cancled even the eavning shows we just stayed in our rooms . Holland america did nothing. We got back to port 6 hrs late. What a mess that was in feb. not huracaine season. 3 months later I got a check for $30 for port charges for the island we missed. nothing else .I understand weather isnt under their controle but could have done something even a cruise credit twards another cruise.To make us feel like they cared They had no entertainmet , the pools were emptied and very limited food service. WE had a terable 3 days in our room with nothing to do even limited shows to watch on tv. Ill proably never again go on Holland america because of the way we were treated. We lost 3 days of 7 days . It would have seemed they could have docked somewhere so we could have done something . I can understand how the passenger felt but a mob is not right eather. I do think 1 person giving their side of story to the capt. was a good idea . Once you leave ship you have a hard time talking to anyone . CARL

[PunkinsDad]

I would be leading the mutiny!!

If you pay for cruise to three carribean ports you deserve good ports!

Rhode Island and a cruise to a cruise port?????????? Are they nuts!!

They should of rerouted to Burmuda!

If they can't provide three good alternatives they need to refund!!!

 

 

Sigh........

 

OK......First......read the terms of the agreement you enter into when you book a cruise.

 

Second. If you don't like, or cannot accept those terms, don't book the cruise. :p

 

As one who has personal experience with what Mother Nature can present to a ship (Google "North Atlantic in January" Or "Hurricane Andrew wave heights". Both of which I personally experienced) I'll never doubt the judgment of the ship's Captain in these matters.

 

You would probably be the first one in line to sue because you were puking your guts out, as the ship rolled in heavy seas trying to get you to your precious Caribbean ports. :rolleyes:

 

It's weather.......deal with it and be thankful that there are professional mariners keeping you safe.

[baseline6400]

Everyone should know on the front end that changes may have to be made due to safety concerns because of weather. Several years ago we were on the Carnival Conquest and due to a hurricane we had to go to Progesso Mexico and miss Montego Bay. Many people were quite upset, but in our case it was great. Having been to Montego Bay a number of times and being unimpressed, we were able to visit Chitzen Itza which made for a great day. Never regretted this cruise, plus the seas got pretty rough which just gave us an adventure. We always felt safe due the Captain's experience and good judgement and would have never given thought to penalizing the crew of their gratuities because of some weather event that couldn't be helped. Some people need to give it a rest and just go on a road trip.

[Divotking]

Anyone that has cruised any amount of time should realize that the ships Captain and crew are trying to provide the safe way around the Hurricanes and storms. Anyone that can't live with that should not be on a ship. They can sink! Wake up! Enjoy the ocean and the views.:)

[fendbass]

Math quiz: what do you get when you mix a lawyer with a perceived injustice? KA-CHING!!! Its the same reasoning that causes people to jump into cars that have just been in an accident, and claim whiplash

 

My feeling is, being a lawyer, he saw a chance to cash in, and others just jumped on the bandwagon

[ian_ok]

Some may remember/know of the British Airways flight that decided to land in Kuwait during the start of the Gulf war. Yes it ended in disaster and many years on they have received compensation from BA.

 

So why the hell would a cruise line dock at a port going to be hit by a hurricane and then wait for the compensation claims to flood in.

 

When was the last time a pilot of a 747 said oh well we are going through some turbulence, I'll not change altitude you can just sit through and have the most scariest ride of your life. The same goes for a boat, they change direction in order to make the journey most acceptable and enjoyable for all.

 

At the end of the day you they booked a cruise which had T&C's, if they decided to ignore them then it's tough. Yes the ports of call may not have been as good, may be Bermuda might have been good, but that could have meant not doing other stops due to it's distance between a-z.

[chic_urbanity]

I voted for the one with the most votes, cuz it's true! I'm a first-time cruiser and I'd never ever go during hurricane season in those areas... I don't know why people do, frankly, when it's so high-risk.

[JoKnecht]

I believe the entire "cruise industry" has to bear some of the blame for these types of incidents. As these ships get larger and larger (just look at the ones being built), there is a disconnect created with the idea that you are "at sea". Indeed, just looking at the interiors of some of these "ships" with their arcades and malls, their restaurants that don't even have a view of the ocean, wave surfers and rock climbing walls, has fostered the impression in a whole class of passengers who simply feel that they are in "luxury resorts" that happen to move from port to port during the night.

It would stand to reason these passengers truly have no idea that they are in the ocean and that "bad" things can occur if the captain and crew are not dilligent in their duties.

I agree with those posts here that anyone who sails into the Caribbean(or Atlantic) during the hurricane season should be well aware that their itinerary may have to be change, but let's be honest, how many cruise lines play down that possibility to boost occupancy? Moreover, how well do they communicate any of the reasons to their clients while on board?

This past December I was on the Azamara Journey as it rounded Cape Horn. The weather forced a change in itinerary twice. The Captain communicated this to us immediately, as well as his reasons for the changes. The crew immediately added activities to the day. The fact we were on a relatively small ship (30,000 ton R-ship), kept all of us on board informed and aware of our "connection" with the sea.

The cruise industry cannot act surprised or upset when groups of their guests act poorly, like they were not at sea avoiding a bad storm. That's the reality these ships were designed to create in the first place.

[c-legs]

Just some thoughts.....

 

1. Captains and ship's masters are not in the habit of discussing or "negotiating" their orders or instructions. The decades of experience they have in earning their papers teach them that first. What the ships Captain and the Officers are charged with is first, the safety of the passengers and the crew; then secoind that the passengers get the cruise they paid for. If "1" conflicts with "2"...."1" always wins!

 

2. I am not sure what law school teaches meteorology and navigation as part of its curriculum to receive a law degree....therefore i am not sure that I would want a lawyer "negotiating" the decisions of a ship's Captain over what's for dinner....let alone a Captain's decisions about my safety at sea.

 

3. Cruise in the Carribbean in hurricane season...cruise cheap...take your chances...and enjoy where ever you go even if that is not where you planned to be.

 

4. Perhaps a Junior Officer should be given some inter-personal communications training and set as one of his/her duties to deal with crazy lawyers and drunks who want ships to be turned into storms and hurricanes. It will be good expereince for them when, or if, they write for their Master's Papers!

 

Just some thoughts.

And they are SPOT ON !! Well said !!:cool:

Thanks

Cheers:D

[Brad1185]

Not sure what would make have made the protestors happy besides a full refund. They should be happy a port or two was missed to get more sea days.

 

The fact is with a hurricane going, changes are going to have to be made.

[DiscoVolante]

Last week, passengers on Carnival Miracle started a near revolt when a significant itinerary change due to Tropical Storm Hanna turned their Eastern Caribbean sailing into a cruise to Florida, the Bahamas...and Newport, Rhode Island. Cruise Critic Editor in Chief Carolyn Spencer Brown shares her opinion on onboard mutinies in today's From the Bridge feature: http://www.cruisecritic.com/articles.cfm?ID=736

 

Do you think these increasingly common mutinies are justified? Please vote in our poll or share your opinion below.

The sea is no playground in bad weather. The captain decides and the passengers and crew accept. He has the responsibility regardless of the opinions of a few dummies.

These irresponsible nutters are going to add additional costs to cruising with their antics.

[RollaThatRocks]

IMO, I think that the few people that behaved like aggressive bitches (female dog) in heat should have been confined to there cabins. When someone gets angry and then ignites an aggressive crowd it should be handled with immediate lawful attention.

 

I know exactly the position that Captain was put in and unfortunately for the Captain, he is damned if he did and damned if he didn't. The one thing I believe the Captain failed at was allowing that mob leader lawyer to have a meeting with him. For some reason some of these lawyers believe they can change the world, because they stand in front of a judge and win a couple of small never to be reconized court cases.

 

The Captain's first thought is passenger safety and GOD BLESS THAT MAN for sticking to his training and knowledge of the sea and ship.

 

As for the lawyer...... Thanks for putting everyone's safety, before your "I will be suing you speech to the Captain." By the way incase that harvard law degree didn't pick up on the last statement that was sarcasm.:p

[beachchick]

I selected the option to post below because there wasn't a choice that quite fit my opinion. IMO, the real question is not so much "Are passengers ever justified in staging a mutiny if an itinerary is changed?" as it should be "Are passengers ever justified in staging a mutiny short of the captain and crew turning to piracy, hurting/abusing pax, or otherwise endangering the safety of the pax?" I think the answer to the second question is no, so the answer to the first question is also no. These kinds of mutinies/revolts are disturbing because they seem to be an off-shoot of the "I'm not responsible for my actions; it's someone else's fault; I want what I want and I want it now--and damn the consequences" attitude that some people have.

 

I am appalled, but not surprised, to hear about the number of people who simply do not get that the safety of the passengers and ship is paramount. I'm sorry that people have been missing ports because of hurricanes, but that happens every year. There are many situations where the cruise line bears responsibility, such as mechanical failures. In those cases, I believe they owe passengers reasonable compensation. In cases where Mother Nature/Act of God has caused the change, I think the cruise lines would be well advised to offer a small "We're sorry this happened even though we had no control over it," such as a small per person OBC. We might not like how the cruise lines cover themselves in the fine print, but it is legal. I think that the way the cruise lines disavow responsibility for absolutely everything is somewhat shameful; OTOH, if they don't then every passenger who is even slightly disgruntled is a potential adversary.

 

Anyway, I'm more concerned over the general increase in such situations, then I am in the particulars of this situation.

 

beachchick

[CruisinGloria]

The passengers had no right to cause so much trouble. Of course they could not mutiny (they were never running the ship!), but they should have conducted themselves in a more appropriate manner rather than throwing tantrums and causing so much bad feelings. The Captain is in charge and probably had to tell them that they would try for whatever ports but couldn't guarantee it. If you want a guaranteed itinerary on a cruise, DON"T go during hurricane season. (and I think I'd enjoy the extra time on board...while ports are interesting, I'm always reluctant to remove myself from the on-board pleasures!!). And I hope the "lawyer" is banned from the cruise line. People like that only stress out the rest of the people who would go along if there wasn't someone trying to stir up trouble. And no compensation is needed. Carnival gave them their 7 day cruise and the fine print states that sometimes changes must be made in itineraries. Gloria