Formal Night Dilemma with No Solution

[sunshine 229]

I am willing to bet that Bridge Maven also likes to look smart at dinner. I am sure she also has "built in" responsibilities and I am sure she was very well brought up.

 

Accepting another who chooses not to dress "formal" is not a sign of lack of responsibility or poor up-bringing. Perhaps the opposite? Just food for thought!

 

Accepting them' date=' once you are on the cruise, and not making a big fuss if they come to the table next to yours inappropriately dressed, may be a sign of good upbringing however when someone posts on a thread soliciting other people's opinions on the matter of dress I don't think it is a sign of good upbringing to encourage them to disregard the established dress code.

 

Originally Posted by bondscruisegal

And isn't that the point of going on vacation---enjoy yourself, relax and have fun.

Well, yes, but it's also to choose an appropriate destination and be considerate of those around you.

 

Different destinations and venues are available for you depending on preferences; just because you are on vacation doesn't mean you can go dressed however you feel like and disrespect the establishment and other's preferences just because you're on holidays.

Exactly, being on vacation and having fun doesn't excuse you for letting your kids in the adult hot tubs because it would be more relaxing for you to do that, nor does it IMO mean that it is okay to use your towels to hold prime placement lounge chairs all day, because it will be more fun for you to have them avaiable when you want, I don't see why it should be any more acceptable to disregard the dress code guidelines.

 

If totally relaxing and enjoying your vacation, to you, means never having to get dressed up, why not choose a vacation where that is not expected?

 

And if being relaxed and having fun is your goal, why go on a cruise with your wife and them make her feel uncomfortable by refusing to follow the codes...and even if you feel that compromising for your wife's sake, and wearing a nice suit for a few hours, will totally spoil your relaxation why not eat at the alternative dining area where formal dress is not required?

[woodofpine]

I've read posting after posting about people who ignore the dress code on formal nights. How gauche. How rude. How self-centered.

 

Now we've become part of the problem.

 

We're bk'd on a Panama Canal cruise in Oct. Dh informs me that he absolutely refuses to take a suit. His best offer is a navy sportcoat with cotton pants. I suggested he could rent a tux and save on luggage space. I could have saved my breath. I'm not even sure he'll wear a tie. (I plan to pack one myself just in case he happens to "forget" which he's been known to do before.)

 

I know they'll let him into dinner b/c I've seen people wearing jeans and t-shirts on formal night--I just never expected to be part of the you-can't-mean-us crowd. Will there be other men similarly dressed, or should I pretend I never met the man before that evening?

 

M/R

 

I think that you should be retaining a competent and aggressive divorce lawyer. Your post demonstrates clear 'grounds' under any conceivable state law - at a minimum 'mental cruelty'. The lack of shared values must be absolutely heartbreaking... I hope there are no children involved. If there are, years of therapy will undoubtedly be necessary...:(

 

OK. Tongue in cheek aside... :D

 

When booking a cruise... How important is the formal night 'dress ratio' in making a booking choice. As opposed to... 1) the itinerary, 2) the date, 3) the ship, 4) the cabin/price, 5) the cruise line reputation for food and service... Shall I go on?

 

In 'reality', as opposed to cyber-keyboard world, formal night dress ratio is a very minor consideration; its immaterial. Those that find such a trivial issue to be a 'cruise breaker' shouldn't travel on large volume mass market ships... But they do... thus demonstrating that ##1-5 above (esp. #4) - in reality - has far greater priority over the triviality of dress on 'costume night'. Yet, these advocates of 'standards' and 'decorem' are willing to drop reasonable standards of civility to other posters and run on with all sorts of cyber psych-ranting over what is truly a trivial topic. So much for decorem and standards. The issue certainly doesn't make the top 5 considerations for probably 99+% of cruisers. It should be considered and discussed accordingly.

[excitedofharpenden]

The part of your post which I found offensive was "how I was brought up". It infers that others were not as well brought up as you were. Don't you think it is a put-down? I don't know whether or not you are a parent' date=' but if you look around at the people you know sometimes there is not correlation between the up-bringing and the outcome. I can think of one family in particular where the parents were unbelievably laissez-faire and the children turned out very well. So can the oppposite be true.[/quote']

I'm not going to argue with you because it is obvious you want to read far more things into my posts than are really there.

 

Phil

[FinelyCruising]

When booking a cruise... How important is the formal night 'dress ratio' in making a booking choice. As opposed to... 1) the itinerary, 2) the date, 3) the ship, 4) the cabin/price, 5) the cruise line reputation for food and service... Shall I go on?

 

Pretty important. There are lines with different arrangements that offer all of the other items as well. The point is that Celebrity has this standard, that has always been the point.

 

Funny how many want to cruise with Celebrity for all its higher standards so they feel better about the line they chose, and while many want to buy up into this line with all its amenities, the other lines in a similar or slightly lower price point, and with a less eventful dress standard, are ignored. Now why do you suppose that it?

[sunshine 229]

I think that you should be retaining a competent and aggressive divorce lawyer. Your post demonstrates clear 'grounds' under any conceivable state law - at a minimum 'mental cruelty'. The lack of shared values must be absolutely heartbreaking... I hope there are no children involved. If there are, years of therapy will undoubtedly be necessary...:(

 

OK. Tongue in cheek aside... :D

 

When booking a cruise... How important is the formal night 'dress ratio' in making a booking choice. As opposed to... 1) the itinerary, 2) the date, 3) the ship, 4) the cabin/price, 5) the cruise line reputation for food and service... Shall I go on?

 

In 'reality', as opposed to cyber-keyboard world, formal night dress ratio is a very minor consideration; its immaterial. Those that find such a trivial issue to be a 'cruise breaker' shouldn't travel on large volume mass market ships... But they do... thus demonstrating that ##1-5 above (esp. #4) - in reality - has far greater priority over the triviality of dress on 'costume night'. Yet, these advocates of 'standards' and 'decorem' are willing to drop reasonable standards of civility to other posters and run on with all sorts of cyber psych-ranting over what is truly a trivial topic. So much for decorem and standards. The issue certainly doesn't make the top 5 considerations for probably 99+% of cruisers. It should be considered and discussed accordingly.

 

What an interestingly egocentric view. Because dress code isn't important to you in choosing a cruise you assume that it isn't important to others?

 

IMO the number and intensity of threads on the subject indicate that it is of importance to others. In addition, the fact that some may not consider it to be of much importance in picking a cruise may be simply because it is something that they have no intention of adhering to in any case. Once they have selected the cruise it would be impossible for them to change the itinerary or the ship solely on their whim however, they can 'change' the dress code simply by refusing to follow it.

 

Judging from the intensity with which some people on the board defend their right to ignore the dress guidelines I'd suspect that if the cruise lines suddenly began rigorously enforcing the code and made sure that no one who didn't follow the code got into the dining room, the number of people who considered that when choosing a cruise might increase.

 

And yet again I have to ask, if the dress code is such an unimportant thing, such a minor consideration, why is it such a big thing for people to follow?

 

If you find that the ship, itinerary and price that you prefer comes with a slightly more formal dress code than might be your preference, is it that much of a big thing to throw a suit for a man, or long black slacks and a glittery top for a lady into your suitcase? If dress code is so minor a consideration why not just go along with it? Why fight tooth and nail to defend your right to disregard it?

[J & G]

One thing I've noticed about the whole formal night discussion, both here and on other boards, is that the discussions are far more intense than the actual formal nights themselves.

 

I have never heard or seen anyone getting their knickers in a twist over what others are wearing when formal nights actually arrive. Maybe I'm just oblivious, however. I'm too busy having a great time to worry about what other people are wearing. And I refuse to let someone else's attire negatively impact my cruise enjoyment.

 

And, yes, we do dress up for formal night....but I wouldn't care if formal nights went away. It would make packing much easier. But then we wouldn't have these most interesting threads......oh, I forgot, we could still discuss smoking....:)

[woodofpine]

What an interestingly egocentric view. Because dress code isn't important to you in choosing a cruise you assume that it isn't important to others?

 

IMO the number and intensity of threads on the subject indicate that it is of importance to others. In addition, the fact that some may not consider it to be of much importance in picking a cruise may be simply because it is something that they have no intention of adhering to in any case. Once they have selected the cruise it would be impossible for them to change the itinerary or the ship solely on their whim however, they can 'change' the dress code simply by refusing to follow it.

 

Judging from the intensity with which some people on the board defend their right to ignore the dress guidelines I'd suspect that if the cruise lines suddenly began rigorously enforcing the code and made sure that no one who didn't follow the code got into the dining room, the number of people who considered that when choosing a cruise might increase.

 

And yet again I have to ask, if the dress code is such an unimportant thing, such a minor consideration, why is it such a big thing for people to follow?

 

If you find that the ship, itinerary and price that you prefer comes with a slightly more formal dress code than might be your preference, is it that much of a big thing to throw a suit for a man, or long black slacks and a glittery top for a lady into your suitcase? If dress code is so minor a consideration why not just go along with it? Why fight tooth and nail to defend your right to disregard it?

 

I'm glad you acknowledge they are 'guidelines' that cruisers have a right to disregard(maybe a Freudian slip given the bandying about on 'ego' :D). Some folks are conformists, others exercize and defend their 'rights'. I too agree they are 'guidelines' one is free to disregard; however, personally I've never been in less than a tux on a cruise ship's 'formal night' or 'costume night' as I'm coming to see it... so you're a bit like Don Quixote jousting with windmills here...

 

What an interestingly egocentric view.

 

What I have noted about these formal dress threads over time is that the most militant are adherants to formality, often willing to write comments they'd NEVER have the backbone to state face to face... (But then exercize and defense isn't their thing I guess, stay in the middle of herd.) Smug online comments about civility and morals and whatnot come wrapped in a shrill loss of the virtues folks pretend to defend. It is sort of otherwordly and hypocritical. But I suppose that is in keeping with the nostalgic fantasy of 'formal-costume night'...

 

One thing I've noticed about the whole formal night discussion, both here and on other boards, is that the discussions are far more intense than the actual formal nights themselves.

 

I have never heard or seen anyone getting their knickers in a twist over what others are wearing when formal nights actually arrive. Maybe I'm just oblivious, however. I'm too busy having a great time to worry about what other people are wearing. And I refuse to let someone else's attire negatively impact my cruise enjoyment.

 

And, yes, we do dress up for formal night....but I wouldn't care if formal nights went away. It would make packing much easier. But then we wouldn't have these most interesting threads......oh, I forgot, we could still discuss smoking....:)

 

FIRE!! :D:D I agree totally. :)

[Ma Bell]

Now it's about exercising one's rights? You must be kidding. Well at least I got my laugh for the day.;)

[Cindy G]

Isn't it really about respect, or lack thereof? To the wife? To the other passengers? To Celebrity who clearly still has a dress code? Simply read the website or cruise brochures.

 

Just a question, what do the "non-conformers" do when invited to the Captain's table?

[woodofpine]

Now it's about exercising one's rights? You must be kidding. Well at least I got my laugh for the day.;)

 

Hey! I'm just quoting Little Miss Sunshine!;) Rights - well at least they're living their own lifestyle as 'the welcomed' guests of a line that apparently is more tolerant and less rigid than many here. I find it amusing (I guess it isn't) is that on the 'most formal' mass market cruise line out there, there is this small regiment of white knuckled passengers grinding their teeth (internally spewing venom) over something 'their' cruiseline takes in stride and is not so concerned about.

 

I also know as a matter of mathematical absolutes that a 2,000 passenger ship where even 95% adhere to the whatever you want to call it (code, guideline, suggestions) will ALWAYS have at least 100 passengers to fuel those teeth grinding resentments... Ergo, the militant formalist WILL NOT be happy on formal night - ever.

 

I pack my tux - but frankly, if I had to change places with the underdressed or the teeth grinders, I'd go with the underdressed; at least they're carefree and enjoying their vacation! The resentful need to remember the saying, resentment is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die...

 

Live and let live.

[woodofpine]

Isn't it really about respect, or lack thereof? To the wife? To the other passengers? To Celebrity who clearly still has a dress code? Simply read the website or cruise brochures.

 

Just a question, what do the "non-conformers" do when invited to the Captain's table?

 

They probably eat dinner... :)

 

Isn't it really about respect, or lack thereof? To the wife? To the other passengers? To Celebrity who clearly still has a dress code?

 

No - I think its about clothing... while on vacation. That's all. As Sunshine's friend Dr. Freud said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." ;)

[npsh]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I get the impression by the many threads/posters on this topic(of which I made a contribution), Celebrity Cruise Line doesn’t enforce its own policies on dress code (as noted on its Web site) for the formal dining nights. If such is the case, what is the reason? Is it, they (Celebrity) fear many won’t participate and are not interested in a strict formal environment (tux, dinner jacket and long gowns). Can anybody explain?

[Spender Nui]

They probably eat dinner... :)

 

As Sunshine's friend Dr. Freud said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." ;)

 

Not if Bill Clinton is around.

[woodofpine]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I get the impression by the many threads/posters on this topic(of which I made a contribution), Celebrity Cruise Line doesn’t enforce its own policies on dress code (as noted on its Web site) for the formal dining nights. If such is the case, what is the reason? Is it, they (Celebrity) fear many won’t participate and are not interested in a strict formal environment (tux, dinner jacket and long gowns). Can anybody explain?

 

It's been some time since I've cruised with X, but from what I hear lately X still has the most formality adherent passengers in the market. So - whether this 'problem' is inflated by some or not is in the eyes of the beholder. There will always be 'exceptions' that define the rule, the overly casual showing on formal night and sticking out. This may exist on the deluxe lines too, I don't know (I've never been).

 

But generally, none of the big cruise lines to my knowledge strictly enforce formal night attire on formal night. I've seen HAL and X enforce the shorts ban on any night. Jeans are a 'Hot Topic'. It is largely in the discretion of the Maitre d' who is the one who will actually have to police this... what is it suggestion... guideline... code...

 

But formal night dress is not really a hard rule; some will argue otherwise, but it is a 'suggested' attire or 'standard' for a particular or 'special' night. I enjoy formal night. I used to get vexed over the blue blazer etc. dressers but to what end... vexation for vexation's sake? So I've changed my attitude. Many still like to read the decline of western civilization into formal fashion or otherwise find capital criminal intent in those that are dedicated casual dressers. That's exprapolation into absurdity IMHO.

 

These are big ships that the line needs to filled. Formality is a constantly evolving social standard that the lines may like to take advantage of commercially, but if the passenger pool is becoming less formal, the cruiselines aren't going to be at the point of the spear is some fashion debate. In that way, I suppose they gravitate to less rigid standards because they are not in the business of p*ssing off customers (that's smart). Those that state, "I'm upset they don't rigidly codify and enforce this stuff", those pax also have alternatives... They always cite those alternatives to the casually inclined, but the formalists ALSO have choices. Those choices likely involve paying more though... So - to that end, many formal night complainants (for all the grousing) have disclosed their priorities and voted with there pocket book. The big ship (less formal rigid) pricing is more attractive than the small ship more expensive and more formal ships...

 

If you really love formal, do the world a favor and go to enough charity balls during the year that you've got it out of your system. Because on a big ship there will ALWAYS be at least a couple hundred casually dressed and its too much to expect that ship Maitre d's are going to get into dozens of arguments on one particular night.

 

That said, X still has the most formal dressers and most report 75% or more formal night conformity. In this world, can one expect more? Demand more? Expect a business to potentially alienate that much of its fare base? Does the grousing here have an impact on people's actual dress on ship? Now that makes me chuckle...

[woodofpine]

Not if Bill Clinton is around.

 

So if you were at a formal event and ex-president Clinton was in attendance, and the after dinner port or brandy was poured... and the ex-president offered you a cigar... would you take it?

[wvufan]

Here is a compromising solution:

 

Apply the dress code to late seating. That way, traditionalists such as we can enjoy the ambience and elegance and those who don't wish to participate can go to early seating. I understand there would be some inherent difficulties with that arrangement, but at least it gives everyone a chance to eat the same food in their own preferred environment.

 

Happy Sails to You

 

OOOEEE :D:D Bob and Phyl

[FinelyCruising]

....I'd go with the underdressed; at least they're carefree and enjoying their vacation! The resentful need to remember the saying, resentment is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die...

 

If it is your perspective to characterize all those who underdress as carefree people and all those who are dressed as resentful people all I can say is wow.:eek:

[Ma Bell]

The "problem" is that it is "formal night". It's not optional formal night. The cruiseline makes it VERY clear what is expected. You would think it's the end of the world for people to get dressed up for a few hours.

 

I may be traditional in some ways but I am probably more current in many ways than lots of much younger people.

 

If anyone thinks that the trend of the supposedly free thinking people is providing more choice and freedom, it's time to take a really good look at what's going on in this world. It won't be long before they'll all be living in their jeans uniform, socialist, why bother to strive for excellence world where there are no choices and there will be someone to tell you exactly how you will live your mediocre life. I find it incredibly sad.

[FinelyCruising]

The "problem" is that it is "formal night". It's not optional formal night. The cruiseline makes it VERY clear what is expected. You would think it's the end of the world for people to get dressed up for a few hours.

 

I may be traditional in some ways but I am probably more current in many ways than lots of much younger people.

 

If anyone thinks that the trend of the supposedly free thinking people is providing more choice and freedom, it's time to take a really good look at what's going on in this world. It won't be long before they'll all be living in their jeans uniform, socialist, why bother to strive for excellence world where there are no choices and there will be someone to tell you exactly how you will live your mediocre life. I find it incredibly sad.

 

It will really be a division of the classes. It's happening already.

[dkjretired]

Personally, this whole problem would be solved if Celebrity would just do their jobs. Someone mentioned earlier in this thread or another thread about starting a smoking thread. Did anyone recently notice that we have very few smoking threads anymore on this board. Do you know why? Simple, Celebrity set strict smoking rules a few months ago and except for a few exceptions they actually enforce them. Therefore no more smoking threads because it is not a problem.

 

Now relate this same principle to dress threads, several months ago Celebrity issued new dress codes however did not enforce them. Therefore these threads will continue for those on both sides until Celebrity either loses their dress codes or enforces the ones they have in place. If they say wear a suit to dinner, show up with less than that and be refused entry than these discussions will end. If they relax the codes, no problem but enforce those rules so they are not degraded any further.

 

They used to enforce their dress codes...

[sunshine 229]

Here is a compromising solution:

 

Apply the dress code to late seating. That way, traditionalists such as we can enjoy the ambience and elegance and those who don't wish to participate can go to early seating. I understand there would be some inherent difficulties with that arrangement, but at least it gives everyone a chance to eat the same food in their own preferred environment.

 

Happy Sails to You

 

OOOEEE :D:D Bob and Phyl

 

Sounds like a good suggestion but I suspect it wouldn't work. No doubt some people would find it necessary to their relaxation and fun to attend late dining and do it more casually dressed. To be fair there might be some who prefer formal dress and want to go to the early seating but I suspect that would be less of a problem. I have never, for instance, seen anyone complain that the buffet was not formal enough or that the standards should be changed to have a formal dining night in the buffet. It usually seems to be people who want to dress down but still want to attend the area or time that is set aside for formal dining who are eager to assert their right to eat whenever and however they want.

[Tinkerbell1963]

I have read the posts on this thread with interest.

 

Is the simple answer not that if you wish to dress formally you book with a cruiseline who offers formal nights (e.g. Celebrity, P&O, Cunard etc etc) and if you wish to dress casually you book with a more casual cruiseline (Ocean Village, NCL etc etc)?

 

As a non-smoker I would not book a ship that allows smoking throughout the ship on certain nights. As a vegetarian I would not book a ship that offers only meat/fish on certain nights.

 

I enjoy the chance of dressing up for once in a while - I can wear jeans to dinner any other time that I wish. That doesn't make it right or wrong - its just my choice.

 

Am I just missing the point here or are there not a number of different lines for the reason that you can chose the one that suits your certain requirements?

[sunshine 229]

 

 

 

What I have noted about these formal dress threads over time is that the most militant are adherants to formality, often willing to write comments they'd NEVER have the backbone to state face to face... (But then exercize and defense isn't their thing I guess, stay in the middle of herd.) Smug online comments about civility and morals and whatnot come wrapped in a shrill loss of the virtues folks pretend to defend. It is sort of otherwordly and hypocritical. But I suppose that is in keeping with the nostalgic fantasy of 'formal-costume night'...

 

 

 

.

 

I notice that you took some time to attempt to define peoples characters simply by the stance they take, on internet boards, about the desirability of following dress codes. Odd that you found the time for that but still never got around to responding to one of the main questions I posed:

 

"If you find that the ship, itinerary and price that you prefer comes with a slightly more formal dress code than might be your preference, is it that much of a big thing to throw a suit for a man, or long black slacks and a glittery top for a lady into your suitcase? If dress code is so minor a consideration why not just go along with it? Why fight tooth and nail to defend your right to disregard it?"

 

In fact I haven't seen anyone on the 'free dress" side of the argument who has answered this question although it has been brought up several times in several different forms.

 

Every single night of the cruise there are places on the ship where you can eat without dressing formally. In addition if you want the dining room atmosphere without the formal dress code their are lines which will provide that experience too. Why then do some people feel the need to go to one of the relatively few places where formal dressing is suggested/requested/stipulated and insist on dressing casually?

 

I could make some assumptions about the character that would prompt someone to do that, but what's the point. I suspect that those people's needs to have what they want, the way they want, when they want, even if it impinges on others rights or preferences would blind them to recognizing their behaviour for what it is.

[thefish]

I believe that when a passenger ship was just a mode of transportation there were different classes on the ship and you got what you could to pay for. The third class was separated into claustrophobic areas of the ship, often sharing cabins. Their food choices were probably limited to soups and bread when they could get it. The second class had it off a little better being allowed above the water line and probably dined on tables with waiters for lunch and dinner. The first class of course had the nicer rooms and was served gourmet meals on fine china while a band played. They also had access to the nicer lounges.

 

During this pre-cruising era I’m sure there was not a lot of shorts or T-shirts being worn at any class. But you wore what you could afford. The lower classes in their worn and tattered clothes and the upper class in their tuxedo’s and evening gowns. Pictures that I have seen also allowed the lower class passengers to wear hats while eating at their benches while hats were probably strictly forbidden inside the first class dining rooms.

 

When the need for Ocean Liners as transportation declined and Luxury Cruising for pleasure began to get a foothold only the wealthy could afford these cruises. The cruise lines at that time adopted the same type service that was provided to first class passengers on the now defunct Ocean Liners.

 

As cruising became more affordable this presented a problem for the cruise lines. Some chose to try to hang on to the old customs while other cruise lines catered to everyone with low fares. One can still spend a lot of money even on a discount line if they wish to pay for the suites and private butlers but the wealthy still tend to levitate to the premium lines. You get what you pay for.

 

Even the cut rate cruise lines are trying to hang onto some of the old first class customs thinking this is why people keep coming back. That is why the waiters, table cloths and included semi-gourmet meals still exist on most cruise lines while still offering the $449 cabin. Every dinner may not be formal but even discount cruise lines have tried to hold onto one or two if in name only. Now those able to afford to eat regularly at gourmet restaurants that require a dress code are sometimes mixed in on a cruise with those of us that are used to seeing caps and shorts worn in Chili’s. Some do not understand the big deal with dressing up for dinner while the discount cruise lines are trying to maintain a balance.

 

I remember a time when shorts, t-shirts and even caps were frowned upon at just about every restaurant and diner. And I still am amazed at all the caps, facing front and backward, being worn at our local Mexican Restaurant. My mother would not allow her children, or husband, to wear a hat in a restaurant or even indoors. This had nothing to do with money or snootiness. A large part of the populace, poor and rich were raised to believe it was a sign of respect for men to take their hats off in the presence of a lady and good manners to take your hat off inside. I doubt if the enchiladas taste any different with a hat on or off.

 

I think the cruise industry is still evolving. I believe that a discount line will eventually cater exclusively to the many whom really could care less if their napkin is cloth or paper. They will probably rent out space to McDonalds or Burger King with an Outback for more upscale dining and let Holiday Inn or someone manage the hotel side. The cruise company itself will just concern itself with the Ship, Officers and Staff and farm out all other services giving the passengers a wide range of choices in what services that they are willing to pay for. Do you really need your bed made up twice a day?

 

Some of the old customs of the Trans-Atlantic steamers are still hanging on but I can see them being phased out in the discount lines more each year. This has little to do with snobs or snob-nots. But in closing (applause), to the young man on my last cruise who insisted in showing his pride in sports by him and his children wearing a basketball jersey to dinner every night. “ I am impressed by your under arm follicle forest but please purchase at least a tee shirt, I kept looking for hairs in my entrée.”

 

fisherarts.net

[jackdiamond]

Ma Bell and Don,

 

As usual, you are both right on the money.