Formal Night Dilemma with No Solution

[woodofpine]

Here is a compromising solution:

 

Apply the dress code to late seating. That way, traditionalists such as we can enjoy the ambience and elegance and those who don't wish to participate can go to early seating. I understand there would be some inherent difficulties with that arrangement, but at least it gives everyone a chance to eat the same food in their own preferred environment.

 

Happy Sails to You

 

OOOEEE :D:D Bob and Phyl

 

I like it Bob - but the problem is that YOU ARE compromising, and while I may think that virtuous I can think of a ton of formal militants that won't like even more of the ship in less than formal attire... Nice shot though - but compromising amongst the uncompromising isn't likely to fly... not in this room.

 

If it is your perspective to characterize all those who underdress as carefree people and all those who are dressed as resentful people all I can say it wow.:eek:

 

I didn't characterize it that way... After all, I dress formally...;):D;) But I would say that those who denounce the 'character' of folks they don't know based on their dress on a cruise ship formal night and otherwise can't shake that trivial irritation in such an objectively wonderful environment as a cruise ship... well OK THOSE folks are resentful...

[dkjretired]

 

What I have noted about these formal dress threads over time is that the most militant are adherants to formality, often willing to write comments they'd NEVER have the backbone to state face to face... (But then exercize and defense isn't their thing I guess, stay in the middle of herd.)

:)

 

I would respectfully but very strongly disagree. If you go back and check these dress threads you will find it usually starts with someone asking a question about the dress code. It is then followed by an answer from posters who will often quote the dress code or give their opinions. Those who decide to oppose the dress code are next and will usually employ comments such as "its your cruise, wear what you want' or militant comments against those who in many cases have simply answered a question. It appears to some that answering a question makes you a militant or adherent to formality.

 

The thread goes on from there until it is closed by the moderators....

[wvufan]

Actually, as I would implement my idea, there would still be the same kind of dress of the day stipulation as we have now, but the late seating would be stricly enforced-period!

 

I still don't understand what is so tricky or hard about dressing appropriately. Go to Orient Beach and wear a tux and see how out of place you feel-and how disrespectful it would be to the denizens there:D.

 

It is almost as easy to put on a tux as anything else. Plus, the waistband expands during the cruise to accomodate waistlines that expand.

 

It seems that the ones who say dress code is no big deal are often the ones who make a big deal of it. I can think of a lot more important things in life for which to draw a line in the sand.

 

I go back to my earlier statement-dress formally on formal night because that is what you are SUPPOSED to do.

 

Happy sails to you

 

OOOEEE :D:D Bob and Phyl

[woodofpine]

I notice that you took some time to attempt to define peoples characters simply by the stance they take, on internet boards, about the desirability of following dress codes. Odd that you found the time for that but still never got around to responding to one of the main questions I posed:

 

"If you find that the ship, itinerary and price that you prefer comes with a slightly more formal dress code than might be your preference, is it that much of a big thing to throw a suit for a man, or long black slacks and a glittery top for a lady into your suitcase? If dress code is so minor a consideration why not just go along with it? Why fight tooth and nail to defend your right to disregard it?"

 

In fact I haven't seen anyone on the 'free dress" side of the argument who has answered this question although it has been brought up several times in several different forms.

 

Every single night of the cruise there are places on the ship where you can eat without dressing formally. In addition if you want the dining room atmosphere without the formal dress code their are lines which will provide that experience too. Why then do some people feel the need to go to one of the relatively few places where formal dressing is suggested/requested/stipulated and insist on dressing casually?

 

 

I didn't avoid your question intentionally, I just don't know the answer to it... I guess I could dress casually on formal night and get back to 'ya... Wait! THEY must not be as good as US! :D But did you ever notice that the Real Super Elite - that own ship size yatchs - don't tend to dress in formalware at sea... What's WRONG with THEM?!

 

I could make some assumptions about the character that would prompt someone to do that, but what's the point.

 

Here it comes though... Oh you are a sly one... sunshine... OK what is YOUR point?:D

 

I suspect that those people's needs to have what they want, the way they want, when they want, even if it impinges on others rights or preferences would blind them to recognizing their behaviour for what it is.

 

EVIL! That's what it is! PURE UNREPENTANT EVIL!:eek: To quote the dapper impecable dresser David Bowie, "We are the Goon Squad and we're coming to town! Beep! Beep! FASHION!!"

 

All I got to say is... Enjoy your cruise, and I hope your formal night (but I got a sinking feeling about that one... Beep! Beep!:))

[usha]

Hmmmmm, I'm still trying to figure out how just thinking I should honor the dress codes and dress formally on formal night makes me militant???:confused:

[Can'tstopcruising]

I think what it boils down to is that some pax are liberal "Live and let live" and some are conservative "You must follow the rules". From there, insults fly.

 

I also think that there is a tendency to get away from formality and those who love it want to defend it.

 

No poster here is recommending jeans. Most dress reasonably formal.

 

To answer the question "Why not chose another cruiseline?" As one poster pointed out, there are many reasons to choose a particular cruise, all of which have nothing to do with dresscodes. Dresscodes may be high on one person's priority list, but low on another's. Unless either person is a SLOB (can't you be a slob in "formal" wear?), I probably would not take much notice.

 

Most pax do not read these forums. They are unaware of the strong feelings of fellow pax vis a vis formal nights.

 

We do suggested dress for the evening. We would prefer Smart Casual (or whatever it is called). However we shlep along the formalwear, because that is just us, not because we are so concientious that we have to bring it in order not to offend others. If I found myself with a tablemate wearing (heaven forbid) a sport jacket on formal night, do you think I would care? As long as he was neat and clean, it would be more important to me that he would be pleasant and could carry on an interesting conversation.

 

I wish you all happy cruises, stress free, whatever you wear!

[woodofpine]

Actually, as I would implement my idea, there would still be the same kind of dress of the day stipulation as we have now, but the late seating would be stricly enforced-period!

 

I still don't understand what is so tricky or hard about dressing appropriately. Go to Orient Beach and wear a tux and see how out of place you feel-and how disrespectful it would be to the denizens there:D.

 

It is almost as easy to put on a tux as anything else. Plus, the waistband expands during the cruise to accomodate waistlines that expand.

 

It seems that the ones who say dress code is no big deal are often the ones who make a big deal of it. I can think of a lot more important things in life for which to draw a line in the sand.

 

I go back to my earlier statement-dress formally on formal night because that is what you are SUPPOSED to do.

 

Happy sails to you

 

OOOEEE :D:D Bob and Phyl

 

Bob and Phyl YOU are a font of wisdom! Although hitting Orient Beach in a Tux really does sounds sort of fun, and I doubt the denizens of the fleshy end of Orient Beach would be too concerned... not as much as the formalware 'buffs' seem to be by casual ware...

 

I think you're spot on that formal dress is the right way to go because that is what you are supposed to do...

 

But - you will encounter casual ware on formal night. It's a certainty. So with all due respect, one should remain happy and content with no residual resentments because that too is what you are supposed to do. That may not be in the cruise docs, but it is in the life docs...

 

It's interesting that the greater the degree on conformity the more the irritation with otherwise inconsequential behavior... Maybe everyone would be happier if they deep 6-ed formal night... Given all the other conformities in society (telecom, transport, etc.) this little fashion extravaganza isn't worth the stress and ancrimony.

[woodofpine]

Hmmmmm, I'm still trying to figure out how just thinking I should honor the dress codes and dress formally on formal night makes me militant???:confused:

 

Usha dear, you're a Godess... Cupid not Mars! (Are you still smoking though? For shame...)

 

Just thinking you should honor the dress codes makes you a sharp dressed Godess... and you know I spent a long time in the corner of Cummerbund Head Crackers... but I've changed...

 

But I've come to realize that big ships will have non-conforming dressers by the score... so how am I going to FEEL about that (?) since I can't change it and the cruise line has good reason ($$) not to...

 

The problem comes when one decides to judge people based on dress... and to extrapolate that this non-conformity says this that or the other... (never nice stuff either) THAT sort of militance produces no good will and generates an extraordinarily unhappy vibe. Naked or clothed - who needs THAT on vacation?!!

[thefish]

In an attempt to inject some humor into this thread. I was on a recent cruise (not X) where the group at the dining room table next to us insisted on not only wearing shorts and T-shirts to all dinners but also on occasion swim trunks, flip flops, tank tops. All doing this while the men(sic) at the table wore their baseball caps. I would have expected that they would not have been allowed in the dining room. But if the cruise line chooses not enforce any dress code, even when it's expected, then there is not much that can be done. You can register a complaint and take your business elsewhere next time. You can also try to circumvent this behavior by posting but expect others that believe no circumvention is required.

 

It could have been a matter of free speech because of the language and opinions printed on some of the T-shirts. Even blue jeans would have probably been too large an inconvenience for this group. While the idea of even blue jeans in the dining room would strike terror in some I have seen blue jeans that were as nice as Dockers or even dress pants. For myself I find most jeans stiffer and more uncomfortable than lighter trousers, especially the jeans I work in.

 

Red has spent most of his life outside of his monthly bath in blue jeans. This is what he has to say.

 

 

Uncle Red Hawkins opinion on blue jeans -

 

Well I’ll be gosh durned if I ain’t heard so much hoggy wash since that big citied plaid suited dandy tried to sell me a used pickumup. Them there dime store cowboys in Dallas and Houston couldn’t find the hind end of a horse if it was sitting on their head by jimminie. On the weekends they get all purtied up in them stone washed designer jeans and big nickle plated belt buckies and go to them western yuppiefied discos. Tharn do some sissy line dance to some electrified boomer box noise passing itself off as country music. They be line dancing and shouting to their buddies over the racket about how great it are to be a cowboy. Then they get sick on their low carb beer and puke all over their ostrich quilled yuppie boots. Makes me want to choke on my chaw.

 

Spend a couple of years of winter months sleepun on a flat rock that’s been heated up by yern cook fire while trying to keep warm by burning an arm full of cow chips. Boil a hand full of coffee grinds and filter it through your dirty sock before you drink it, the good one that arent got no holes in it. Chaw on a weeks old biskit and hear the crunch of the weavils that have made the biskit their home.

 

God didn’t invent denims so some slicked back city boy would have something to wear each year when the rodeo comes to town or for sum blondee girlie girl to make a fashun statement. It’s meant to keep your legs from looking like the on sale hamburger meat at the butcher shop after going through the mesquite and pricky pear. It’s meant to give that snake something to bite on othern yore leg. It’s to keep your butt attached to your tail bone after it’s been drugged a hunnered yards over cap rock by some stray.

 

When the head man asks you ore to Sunday dinner you don’t go a sashaying in with your work clothes lessen you want the Mamm of the house to swat you out of the dinner room with her broom. You get your one Sears and Roebuck’s goin to church dress um up suit and brush the durt offin it. Otherwise you eat your grub in the yard with tha chickun’s.

 

 

fisherarts.net

[sunshine 229]

I didn't avoid your question intentionally, I just don't know the answer to it... I guess I could dress casually on formal night and get back to 'ya... Wait! THEY must not be as good as US! :D But did you ever notice that the Real Super Elite - that own ship size yatchs - don't tend to dress in formalware at sea... What's WRONG with THEM?!

 

Nothing wrong with them at all (well, not in this context at least). On their own ship, where they make their own rules, they are totally free to dress however they want, they could dine in their bathing suits for all I care and I wouldn't have a word to say against it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

EVIL! That's what it is! PURE UNREPENTANT EVIL!:eek: To quote the dapper impecable dresser David Bowie, "We are the Goon Squad and we're coming to town! Beep! Beep! FASHION!!"

 

All I got to say is... Enjoy your cruise, and I hope your formal night (but I got a sinking feeling about that one... Beep! Beep!:))

 

I'm pretty sure I will enjoy my formal nights. If I feel like getting dressed up I will and I'll go and enjoy the dining room ambiance. If I don't feel like getting dressed up I'll probably just enjoy diner on my balcony. (And yes! before you say it, I did just throw in that mention of 'my balcony' to highlight that I am that much better than those plebeians who travel in an outside or, heaven forbid, inside cabin! LOL)

[FinelyCruising]

I think what it boils down to is that some pax are liberal "Live and let live" and some are conservative "You must follow the rules". From there' date=' insults fly.

[/quote']

 

Baloney.

 

No one here is insisting that anyone follows the rules. If there is one post that insists that please point it out.;)

 

There are however two camps. One that does 'follow the rules' and one that does 'not follow the rules'. This cut and paste from Sunshine pretty much sums up the point for those insisting on falling short and I happen to adore this logic:

 

"If you find that the ship, itinerary and price that you prefer comes with a slightly more formal dress code than might be your preference, is it that much of a big thing to throw a suit for a man, or long black slacks and a glittery top for a lady into your suitcase? If dress code is so minor a consideration why not just go along with it? Why fight tooth and nail to defend your right to disregard it?"

 

That's what occurs here all the time, posters come and open a new thread all about insisting on avoiding the 'rule'. But heaven forbid their food comes out overcooked or some other such thing. :rolleyes:

[FinelyCruising]

The problem comes when one decides to judge people based on dress... and to extrapolate that this non-conformity says this that or the other... (never nice stuff either) THAT sort of militance produces no good will and generates an extraordinarily unhappy vibe. Naked or clothed - who needs THAT on vacation?!!

 

Who needs it at any time, particularly on vacation. If people want to keep behaving in a provocative manner they are making themselves targets for ridicule. The days of the excuses are starting to wane in light of such highly distributed information to the masses. Feigning ignorance is not a good enough excuse anymore. Its clear that getting over is no longer part of what society is tolerating.

[woodofpine]

Myself, I'm not much for room service on ships (hotels either). I don't know why. The food never seems quite right... but I think that's probably an illusion since I've only gone in to it with a negative view.

 

I travel with kids, they're more into formal night than I. I used to be into it hugely. My wife LOVES it. I used to get a bit ticked over non-dressers. But that was screwing with my head. Now, I figure, viva la difference - I'm happier. That said, I've Never had to be seated with a non-dresser(s). That's a good thing too, because I can be an assertive or sarcastic pr*ck (JUST in case you hadn't figured THAT out); while Martyrdom as a Formalware Taliban might get me a few 'Atta Boys' in this room, it would more likely be a bummer for a few non-dressers, maitre d's, and my travelling companions... And, maitre d's notwithstanding - we ALL are on vacation... Now I figure I need to understand, I cruise, they cruise; I pick this line, they pick this line - we got a lot in common - who knows what else.

 

Personally, I'm not overly committed to cabin classes either - I like verandas but steerage is OK. I understand that on its new ships X is teasing the 'elite' repeaters with a new 'it's blue' program where they issue suite pax walking sticks and they get to hit anyone without one. That's the 'blue' part... welts on fellow pax... Might be good exersize though! Who knows where this line is going with this idea!

 

If you like a veranda though, from personal experience, consider one of the aft corner suites on a HAL Vista class ship. Unbelievable! Multiple loungers, a circular table that can seat 6-8, more chairs around the corner... And you could get lost! Must be 500 sq. ft. (maybe more) Now that's a veranda I should've taken a meal on - but didn't...

 

Anyway enjoy your cruises and don't let me or any other b*st*rds get you down!

[FinelyCruising]

I believe that when a passenger ship was just a mode of transportation there were different classes on the ship and you got what you could to pay for. The third class was separated into claustrophobic areas of the ship, often sharing cabins. Their food choices were probably limited to soups and bread when they could get it. The second class had it off a little better being allowed above the water line and probably dined on tables with waiters for lunch and dinner. The first class of course had the nicer rooms and was served gourmet meals on fine china while a band played. They also had access to the nicer lounges.

 

During this pre-cruising era I’m sure there was not a lot of shorts or T-shirts being worn at any class. But you wore what you could afford. The lower classes in their worn and tattered clothes and the upper class in their tuxedo’s and evening gowns. Pictures that I have seen also allowed the lower class passengers to wear hats while eating at their benches while hats were probably strictly forbidden inside the first class dining rooms.

 

When the need for Ocean Liners as transportation declined and Luxury Cruising for pleasure began to get a foothold only the wealthy could afford these cruises. The cruise lines at that time adopted the same type service that was provided to first class passengers on the now defunct Ocean Liners.

 

As cruising became more affordable this presented a problem for the cruise lines. Some chose to try to hang on to the old customs while other cruise lines catered to everyone with low fares. One can still spend a lot of money even on a discount line if they wish to pay for the suites and private butlers but the wealthy still tend to levitate to the premium lines. You get what you pay for.

 

Even the cut rate cruise lines are trying to hang onto some of the old first class customs thinking this is why people keep coming back. That is why the waiters, table cloths and included semi-gourmet meals still exist on most cruise lines while still offering the $449 cabin. Every dinner may not be formal but even discount cruise lines have tried to hold onto one or two if in name only. Now those able to afford to eat regularly at gourmet restaurants that require a dress code are sometimes mixed in on a cruise with those of us that are used to seeing caps and shorts worn in Chili’s. Some do not understand the big deal with dressing up for dinner while the discount cruise lines are trying to maintain a balance.

 

I remember a time when shorts, t-shirts and even caps were frowned upon at just about every restaurant and diner. And I still am amazed at all the caps, facing front and backward, being worn at our local Mexican Restaurant. My mother would not allow her children, or husband, to wear a hat in a restaurant or even indoors. This had nothing to do with money or snootiness. A large part of the populace, poor and rich were raised to believe it was a sign of respect for men to take their hats off in the presence of a lady and good manners to take your hat off inside. I doubt if the enchiladas taste any different with a hat on or off.

 

I think the cruise industry is still evolving. I believe that a discount line will eventually cater exclusively to the many whom really could care less if their napkin is cloth or paper. They will probably rent out space to McDonalds or Burger King with an Outback for more upscale dining and let Holiday Inn or someone manage the hotel side. The cruise company itself will just concern itself with the Ship, Officers and Staff and farm out all other services giving the passengers a wide range of choices in what services that they are willing to pay for. Do you really need your bed made up twice a day?

 

Some of the old customs of the Trans-Atlantic steamers are still hanging on but I can see them being phased out in the discount lines more each year. This has little to do with snobs or snob-nots. But in closing (applause), to the young man on my last cruise who insisted in showing his pride in sports by him and his children wearing a basketball jersey to dinner every night. “ I am impressed by your under arm follicle forest but please purchase at least a tee shirt, I kept looking for hairs in my entrée.”

 

fisherarts.net

 

Hey there...I don't know where you came from, but it nice to have you here.:)

[hockeyken]

:confused: Wants to do what HE WANTS.

 

Doesn't care what YOU want.

 

Doesn't care what others think.

 

Doesn't like the "dress code".

 

This is defined as "selfish". All about ME.

 

Good luck and happy cruising.

[comesatime]

Gosh you guys. All of this fuss over someone's clothing!

 

I think the biggest problem is the name, "formal night". It means different things to different people. Some take it to mean the same things that contestants (and Bert Parks) wore during the evening gown competition at the Miss America pageant. Others take it to mean "dress dressier than you normally do". Personally, I believe that it means tuxedos and long gowns, but Celebrity disagrees with me. I can live with that.

 

We just got off of the Mercury, and I am pretty sure that my daughter was wearing the ONLY long gown in the room. (I enjoyed the latitude afforded me by Celebrity and wore a *gasp* cocktail dress, lol). My daughter is 18 and wore her prom gown (her choice) and looked lovely. My husband wore a tux. We enjoyed ourselves immensely! I have no idea what everyone else wore, other than that they seemed to be dressier than on the night before. People were clearly making an attempt to dress up. Everyone seemed to enjoy the ambiance in the main dining room, and no one committed any fashion faux pas, that I could see. The only thing that would have ruined the evening for me would to have seen someone get asked to leave for not dressing "formal" enough. Thankfully, that did not happen.

[gillianrose]

To the OP: Is it possible that the sports jacket your husband owns and is willing to wear either fits him better, looks better on him (maybe he has had compliments from others), or is more comfortable than the suit? Has he perhaps put on a bit of weight and the suit feels snug, yet he doesn't want to buy another one for whatever reason?

 

I got to thinking about this because at first it seems to me (a woman) that a sports jacket and slacks outfit appears to be constructed similarly to a suit and would feel similar, but I certainly have dresses and pants that feel much more comfortable than others. I really dislike most of the formal wear I own now, even the newest stuff. I wear it, but I don't like it. If a jacket feels snug or a waistband is tight, I can understand how someone would be less than enthusiastic to wear it. Perhaps you could ask your husband whether the suit is uncomfortable and then determine whether or not an alteration could be made to make it fit better.

 

Otherwise, the sports jacket and tie (removing tie after dinner if he chooses) would be very acceptable, if not ideal or according to "the rules".

[npsh]

For the formal night(s), I am wearing my new tailor made navy Blue Blazer and steel gray dress pants with a matching dress shirt and tie, polished black dress loafers. I am comfortable in this attire and I feel good in it. My better half will wear an appropriate dress that she feels comfortable and looks good in. Neither one of us would consider/dream attending such a function in jeans or every day casual wear. To that end, we are not comfortable and have never dressed in formal wear (gown, tux or dinner jacket) and don’t intend to, it just isn’t us – bar none!

If that offends other dinner guests and/or prospective table companions, well I am very sorry and can take pleasure in the knowledge this formal dinner is 2 hrs max at best out of a 13 day cruise and during this 2 hr session, I will get another wee dram of” single malt” to soothe all me troubles away!!!

Over and Out!

[nealstuber]

If you wear a suit, I'l wear this...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:)

[npsh]

Did you hear the one about the blonde who...........

[woodofpine]

You're both gonna burn in Baked Alaska H*LL for THAT!

 

- Gomer :D

[wvufan]

While I always wear a tux, my wife likes this outfit and there have never been any complaints

 

 

Happy Sails to You

 

OOOEEE :D:D Bob and Phyl

[RMSeadog]

How could anyone disrespect their spouse/partner like that. I hate seeing a well dressed lovely lady or handsome with their partner in causal attire. Which is seen a lot. It is so disrespectful. If I'm taking my lady our for a great dinner I could not bring myself to dress down from what she was wearing, nor would get away with it if I did. I would have to go on my own and pay the single supplement and doubt it would have a home to come to. If I told my wife I was not taking my formal attire, there would be no more cruises in our future. Besides I love to wear my kilts.

 

Ric

[sunshine 229]

While I always wear a tux, my wife likes this outfit and there have never been any complaints

 

 

Happy Sails to You

 

OOOEEE :D:D Bob and Phyl

 

Really?

Do you mostly dine at strip clubs or go on all male (except for your wife) cruises? Cause I am willing to bet there would ba a lot of complaints from other ladies if someone showed up dressed in that.

[ourlol]

I was on a recent cruise (not X) where the group at the dining room table next to us insisted on not only wearing shorts and T-shirts to all dinners but also on occasion swim trunks, flip flops, tank tops.

 

For formal nights they could, of course, have worn these rubber bow ties! A great little accessory for around the pool don't you think ;)