Tips

[Duff Man]

I figure the current service charge is a bargain. If I ate 3 meals a day in restaurants it would easily be $12-15 for tips. And that would only be for the waiters not the stewards, the maitre d's, and all the people behind the scenes making sure I have a great cruise.

 

Heck yeah! The cost of the tips (er, service charge) for DW & I for an entire cruise is probably less than 1 night's tipping in Las Vegas, the tipping capitol of the world! :D

 

A typical Vegas trip, first night:

 

Taxi from McCarran to Bellagio - tip

Bell hop takes luggage from taxi - tip

Check in - no tip, whew!

Different bell hop brings luggage up - tip

(haven't even unpacked yet!)

Unpacked, head to bar for a drink to toast arrival - tip

Head to craps table, cocktail waitress - tip

Likely bad run at craps table, leave table - tip

Next table, good run - tips & tips

Eventually dinner - tip

Taxi to another casino - tip

Stop at a casino table . . . Well, you get the idea!

 

:D :D :D

[njhorseman]

why would MY tip be a private matter between people other then me and the person/people I am giving the tips to... carnival gives a breakdown, I didn't like the way it went and while not reducing the amount I was tipping I made a couple changes based on what I did, where I ate, services I used

 

Technically, the $12 per day DSC on NCL is not a tip or gratuity, which is why, I suppose NCL chooses not to break it down.

 

Do they break down your fare into component charges for food, stateroom, entertainment, debt service, corporate overhead, insurance, etc? No.

[sjbdtz]

why would MY tip be a private matter between people other then me and the person/people I am giving the tips to... carnival gives a breakdown, I didn't like the way it went and while not reducing the amount I was tipping I made a couple changes based on what I did, where I ate, services I used

 

 

Ah, but there's the rub. So, based on the services YOU used, someone's family went hungry, and someone else's family bought a Mercedes.

 

The Service Charge is set so that ALL of the crew are recompensed because the person YOU choose to tip is not necessarily the only person implicated in the delivery of the service you enjoyed. They are only the "last mile".

 

Let's say you had an enjoyable meal. You recognize this and choose to tip the server because the meal was enjoyable. Here's the difference between your scenario & NCL's:

 

YOU:

- Server gets tipped.

 

NCL's:

- Server, busboy, dishwasher, cook all get tipped.

 

How your way is better...is something I don't understand. Each step in the value chain was contributory...yet because they weren't trotted out for you to meet them, you only tipped based on the service you received.

 

NCL has found a way around that, by collecting the service charge automatically they are able not only to collect a greater overall amount (by eliminating skip-outs), but ALSO they are able to manage tip-outs to behind the scenes personnel.

 

Having owned a restaurant, I've watched with interest how the front-of-house staff tip-out the bartender, the dishwasher, the line, etc. But what's to stop them from taking a $50 tip & pocketing it before tipping-out everyone else?

 

By automating the collection, all of the "tips" are on the books, and everyone in the pool gets their allocated percentage based on STYLE cards, and other feedback.

 

 

Stephen

[goodml]

why would MY tip be a private matter between people other then me and the person/people I am giving the tips to... carnival gives a breakdown, I didn't like the way it went and while not reducing the amount I was tipping I made a couple changes based on what I did, where I ate, services I used

 

I guess the bottom line after all the back and forth and differences of opinion is that this is the product that NCL offers. We as consumers must decide if the terms will provide the vacation experience that we're looking for and go from there. It sounds as if NCL's product might not be right for you because this policy IS for the most part, cast in stone and if it's something that will annoy you enough to put a damper on your vacation, another line is probably a better bet.

[savva0122]

I had a bit of an issue with the "service charge" before I went on Jade in May, but it was great! No scrabbling about for cash at the end of the holiday, and no sadness giving hundreds of dollars in evelopes. If you've OBC, in effect the "service charge" costs nothing anyway!

 

As a brit, I find these arguments interesting/perplexing/frustrating in equal measure. Tipping is, if not frowned upon, offered only for truly exceptional service and I've always found the whole matetr a bit unsettling. Paying upfront or as a charge actually takes the discomfort/embarrassment away so I actually prefer that, and when we go on RCI next year we (as always) will pre-pay.

 

We don't generally tip extra - nor do we tip less - we classify the tips/charge as part of the cost of the holiday - but there have been occasions where we have given extra for truly exceptional performance, and these have usually been backed up with complementary letters to the parent company.

[flattop223]

Ah, but there's the rub. So, based on the services YOU used, someone's family went hungry, and someone else's family bought a Mercedes.

 

The Service Charge is set so that ALL of the crew are recompensed because the person YOU choose to tip is not necessarily the only person implicated in the delivery of the service you enjoyed. They are only the "last mile".

 

Let's say you had an enjoyable meal. You recognize this and choose to tip the server because the meal was enjoyable. Here's the difference between your scenario & NCL's:

 

YOU:

- Server gets tipped.

 

NCL's:

- Server, busboy, dishwasher, cook all get tipped.

 

How your way is better...is something I don't understand. Each step in the value chain was contributory...yet because they weren't trotted out for you to meet them, you only tipped based on the service you received.

 

NCL has found a way around that, by collecting the service charge automatically they are able not only to collect a greater overall amount (by eliminating skip-outs), but ALSO they are able to manage tip-outs to behind the scenes personnel.

 

Having owned a restaurant, I've watched with interest how the front-of-house staff tip-out the bartender, the dishwasher, the line, etc. But what's to stop them from taking a $50 tip & pocketing it before tipping-out everyone else?

 

By automating the collection, all of the "tips" are on the books, and everyone in the pool gets their allocated percentage based on STYLE cards, and other feedback.

 

 

Stephen

 

Bravo <clap> <clap> <clap> nicely twisted and taken to an extreem...

 

I never said that I would only tip those I saw and I never said I wanted a break down to the point of names of those that "weren't trotted out for you to meet them"

 

on carnival the breakdown went (not exact but) something like this ...

 

$3.00 / day for the room stewards

$3.00 / day for the wait staff

$2.00 / for the other staff

$2.00 / day for maitre'd

 

On my cruise with them I found the maitre'd to be useless (example: we had 10 people with seatings at a table for 8) I had them move his portion to other groups, another $1.00 for the room stewards and another $0.50 for each of the other 2 groups

 

and "someone's family went hungry" if my portion of $12 a day makes this big of a difference to that guy then he needs to quit and find another job...

 

your not going to make me feel guilty for only wanting to tip people that I feel did a good job/or that I used their services

 

you have a right to your opinion but if your going to get all high and mighty about mine at least keep the flame to what I said and don't twist it to make it sound much worse.

[Simon_B]

Bravo <clap> <clap> <clap> nicely twisted and taken to an extreem...

 

I never said that I would only tip those I saw and I never said I wanted a break down to the point of names of those that "weren't trotted out for you to meet them"

 

on carnival the breakdown went (not exact but) something like this ...

 

$3.00 / day for the room stewards

$3.00 / day for the wait staff

$2.00 / for the other staff

$2.00 / day for maitre'd

 

On my cruise with them I found the maitre'd to be useless (example: we had 10 people with seatings at a table for 8) I had them move his portion to other groups, another $1.00 for the room stewards and another $0.50 for each of the other 2 groups

 

and "someone's family went hungry" if my portion of $12 a day makes this big of a difference to that guy then he needs to quit and find another job...

 

your not going to make me feel guilty for only wanting to tip people that I feel did a good job/or that I used their services

 

you have a right to your opinion but if your going to get all high and mighty about mine at least keep the flame to what I said and don't twist it to make it sound much worse.

 

Don't worry, they will keep on you with innuendo and veiled insults . . .

 

Just remember that you can always adjust the amounts or just tip cash.

[flattop223]

Don't worry, they will keep on you with innuendo and veiled insults . . .

 

Just remember that you can always adjust the amounts or just tip cash.

 

 

Thanks, and I would not want to use cash trying to track down people and if I tried to just do it at each meal or whatever I would end up tipping alot more than the $12 a day. Just want it to go to services I use and those that I don't use can be supported by the people that use them or go away if no one uses them.

[hat776]

In pre DSC days - did the crew who got the envelopes keep all the money or did they have to share with the behind the scenes staff ?

What about the Buffet staff - did they get a share ?

Am I right to think that the cleaning staff don't form part of the tipping pool. It's such a dreary job to spend practically all your day polishing the hand rails in the stair cases - and they still smile and say hello.

[sottovoce]

Just want it to go to services I use and those that I don't use can be supported by the people that use them or go away if no one uses them.

If you eat on the ship and sleep in your stateroom, then you will be supporting the people you "use." Frankly, you are whining about absolutely nothing and it's getting tiresome. Cruise another line. You won't have the issue and we won't have to cruise with you. Or Simon B, for that matter.

[Zeno]

If you don't like NCL's service charges, the answer is very simple - cruise on another cruiseline.

 

Personally I like the service charge since I don't get any special thrill out of handing out money like some "lady bountiful to the lesser orders" and I think it's fine if some of it gets distributed to the "less visible" crew members. Just because I don't personally interact with the guy who cleans the railings does not mean that he is not contributing to my cruise.

$12 a day strikes me as reasonable - since I have certainly tipped more than that on "land" vacations.

 

I realize that not everyone agrees with me - hence my comment above - if you don't like the way NCL does it, find a cruiseline that does this sort of thing the way you prefer it done.

[sjbdtz]

Bravo <clap> <clap> <clap> nicely twisted and taken to an extreem...

 

I never said that I would only tip those I saw and I never said I wanted a break down to the point of names of those that "weren't trotted out for you to meet them"

 

on carnival the breakdown went (not exact but) something like this ...

 

$3.00 / day for the room stewards

$3.00 / day for the wait staff

$2.00 / for the other staff

$2.00 / day for maitre'd

 

 

And on NCL the breakdown is $12 / per person, per day. :rolleyes:

 

On my cruise with them I found the maitre'd to be useless (example: we had 10 people with seatings at a table for 8) I had them move his portion to other groups, another $1.00 for the room stewards and another $0.50 for each of the other 2 groups

 

If someone was useless, then merely changing their tips would not improve their service. Complete a S.T.Y.L.E. card, and they'll be dragged onto the carpet to explain.

 

and "someone's family went hungry" if my portion of $12 a day makes this big of a difference to that guy then he needs to quit and find another job...

 

To different nationalities, $1 / day is a HUGE amount of money in their homeland. Also, they're often supporting extended families, as is culturally the norm.

 

 

your not going to make me feel guilty for only wanting to tip people that I feel did a good job/or that I used their services

 

If you don't SEE 3/4 of the people, then how are you judging whether they did a good job? THAT'S what I meant by "not being trotted out in front of you".

The $12 / day covers ALL personnel who deliver 'common' services. It does NOT cover those who provide services to only a portion of the passengers (like bar staff, spa staff, kid's club, butler/concierge).

I wasn't trying to make you feel guilty. If that's how you're feeling, it has nothing to do with me. I want you to feel informed.

 

 

you have a right to your opinion but if your going to get all high and mighty about mine at least keep the flame to what I said and don't twist it to make it sound much worse.

 

A) I didn't express an opinion, so much as explain the fallacies in your argument. If you don't want to consider the implications of your actions...well...they say ignorance is bliss.

 

Don't worry, they will keep on you with innuendo and veiled insults . . .

 

Just remember that you can always adjust the amounts or just tip cash.

 

No, you can't...not to have the type of effect he wants.

[flattop223]

If you eat on the ship and sleep in your stateroom, then you will be supporting the people you "use." Frankly, you are whining about absolutely nothing and it's getting tiresome. Cruise another line. You won't have the issue and we won't have to cruise with you. Or Simon B, for that matter.

 

 

Cool so you will be checking what sailings I go on and not go on the same sailing... exellent:D

[theshireshihtzu]

why would MY tip be a private matter between people other then me and the person/people I am giving the tips to... carnival gives a breakdown, I didn't like the way it went and while not reducing the amount I was tipping I made a couple changes based on what I did, where I ate, services I used

I suggest you stick with carnival. The 12 service charge is very clear on the NCL site. If you booked with a TA they should have told you. You people who complain about 12 a day for having your cabin cleaned and being waited on all day just irritate the heck out of me.

You don't want to pay it????? Don't cruise.:D

[flattop223]

I suggest you stick with carnival. The 12 service charge is very clear on the NCL site. If you booked with a TA they should have told you. You people who complain about 12 a day for having your cabin cleaned and being waited on all day just irritate the heck out of me.

You don't want to pay it????? Don't cruise.:D

 

did you even read my posts or just the twisting of what I said?

 

I never said that I wanted to lower my DST or that it was not a fair amount just that I would like to see a break down so that I can move portions based on what I have done.

 

It is not whining nore is it being cheap, if there was an item that said $.25 a day for Bowling alley staff and I did not use the bowling alley I think I should be able to say move that $.25 to the room steward that did a great job for me.

 

and to those that said "well you don't get to see a breakdown" and "what you want is impossable" it may or it may not be.

I placed a call to NCL to ask and was told yes it is possable and they would e-mail me the breakdown although they did not think I would want to make any changes after getting the breakdown.

accessdesk@ncl.com got back to me and said that the breakdown is not the same on all ships/sailing but onboard it will be in the state room and if it is not you need only ask and they will be happy to provide it.

 

I haven't noticed it from you theshireshihtzu but there are some people here that the moment that you state that you don't love everything about the NCL DST they decide to flame or twist what you have said and flame that

[sjbdtz]

just that I would like to see a break down so that I can move portions based on what I have done.

 

It is not whining nore is it being cheap, if there was an item that said $.25 a day for Bowling alley staff and I did not use the bowling alley I think I should be able to say move that $.25 to the room steward that did a great job for me.

 

Understood. It's just that THIS is where you're wrong. Why should the guy who is taken from their other duties and told to manage the bowling alley today, see his pay reduced because you think you know better than the cruiseline how to ensure their staff are compensated?

The whole idea of the Service Charge is that the compensation is complex in an environment where people move from job to job. I wouldn't want him finding out I stiffed him one day, and have him serving me soup the next!!! Oops...sorry, i tripped.... :rolleyes:

 

and to those that said "well you don't get to see a breakdown" and "what you want is impossable" it may or it may not be.

 

Ahh... NCL customer service get ALL SORTS of things wrong. Here, you have the benefit of crowdsourcing. The collective experience of people who have cruised many times, and the contributions of people who work on the ships and know FAR better than shoreside... how things work.

 

 

I placed a call to NCL to ask and was told yes it is possable and they would e-mail me the breakdown although they did not think I would want to make any changes after getting the breakdown.

accessdesk@ncl.com got back to me and said that the breakdown is not the same on all ships/sailing but onboard it will be in the state room and if it is not you need only ask and they will be happy to provide it.

 

I haven't noticed it from you theshireshihtzu but there are some people here that the moment that you state that you don't love everything about the NCL DST they decide to flame or twist what you have said and flame that

 

Ditto.

[flattop223]

sjbdtz I love how you think your opinion is the only one that counts... you state that I am WRONG but you are stating your opinion, that is all it is, you are not all knowing. Have you every asked while on a cruise if you could get the breakdown of how the DST was distributed? Perhaps you are the one that is WRONG.

 

I also love how when a point is backed by calling NCL Customer Support, with a question like this...

Customer Support person who had to ask his Supervisor then came back with an answer that was "yes, it is available but to get more information you need to wait until your on the ship or contact the Access Desk"...

the Access Desk was able to confirm it and stated that because of different sail/ship rates it needs to be obtained onboard...

and your answer is...

we know better because they suck (and yes that could be seen as twisting your words)

[goodml]

sjbdtz I love how you think your opinion is the only one that counts... you state that I am WRONG but you are stating your opinion, that is all it is, you are not all knowing. Have you every asked while on a cruise if you could get the breakdown of how the DST was distributed? Perhaps you are the one that is WRONG.

 

I also love how when a point is backed by calling NCL Customer Support, with a question like this...

Customer Support person who had to ask his Supervisor then came back with an answer that was "yes, it is available but to get more information you need to wait until your on the ship or contact the Access Desk"...

the Access Desk was able to confirm it and stated that because of different sail/ship rates it needs to be obtained onboard...

and your answer is...

we know better because they suck (and yes that could be seen as twisting your words)

 

You and I are on different wavelengths with regards to the tipping debate but on this...yeah, we agree.:D

[Focusresumed]

Disclaimer - this in my opinion and merely an opinion...

 

It is truly surprising to me that Service Charge/Gratuities/Tips is constantly an area of concern on these boards. I wonder if many people ever have the true understanding of "tips" in the service industry.

 

1. From business perspective, the ability to add "service charges" is a way for business to minimize their labor costs...

 

Example - When I worked for the restaurant industry in IL, I was paid $2.85 an hour + tips; though this minimal amount has probably increased over the years, the initial amount prior to tips is well beneath the minimum wage. Now the way that the system works, is that the servers are guaranteed to declare enough money in tips to add to their "starting salary" to be equivalent to minimum wage; or the restaurant is responsible to make up said difference. So as you can see, the restaurants are hoping that the server makes large amounts of gratuity so that their labor costs are minimized. Likewise, the servers are hoping to make large amounts of gratuity to maximize their income; as all they can hope to receive from the restaurants is minimum wage.

 

2. Now in California, the starting salary is a bit more. However, especially in today’s economic crisis, due to hire costs of labor the restaurants have been forced to cut hours for their employees. This then causes the service staffed to be stretched and the guests to be unhappy; thereby increasing complaints and costing the restaurants money. The more money they lose, the more they attempt to "cut back" to stay in business. The more they "cut back", the more stressed the staff gets and the more the guests complain. This is a never ending cycle that unfortunately exists whether there is a recession or not.

 

3. In most situations, the tips have to be tolled out at the end of a shift. What this means, like the distribution by the cruise lines, the tip that you grace the server with then gets portioned out to the bar, runner, busser, and occasionally the kitchen. This is the "behind the scenes" that most guests don't witness.

 

Therefore, like most have said, if you aren't pleased with the service member and wish not to tip, fine; however, please remember to take the time to tip the busser, silverware roller, cook, runner, and cleaning staff.

 

4. It has been suggested that if the service member isn't happy with the amount of money they are making, then they should just quit and find a new job. Fine...I challenge all service personnel to quit and ask you how your experience will be affected. Unfortunately, there is no union to protect the service staff and in most cases, the companies try to adhere to the belief that the "customer is always right". I ask you: what is the percentage of complaints to management, about the staff, to compliments. As a past supervisor in the business, I can assure you that the first thought that comes to mind when a guest approached me, was "what went wrong this time". It is pretty sad that people believe that just throwing down a few dollars is a compliment to the server.

 

5. It has been reported, by CNN and articles, that cruise companies are able to reduce their costs by carrying the flag of another country and hiring staff from other countries. Though this is a great business concept and the cruisers get to benefit from cheaper costs, are any of us naive to believe that "everyone" benefits from this practice? If I remember correctly, your average head steward makes about 2500 a month; I believe I saw this on the CNN cruise report. I am unaware as to whether this amount reported was gross or net. However, if one is to assume that it is net and the employee works 25-30 days a month, 8-10 hours a day, then they average $10 an hour. Now, remember if this amount is net, then it includes the "service charges" that are being declared. So, if everyone removes these charges, as is their right, then how much is that employee sending home then?

 

6. $12.00 a day being an outrageous amount. Consider this how many employees does that $12.00 go to? As NCL does not break down the percentages distributed, then I can only assume that I will be giving .50 to 1.00 to every crew member that helps throughout the day. Doesn't sound like that much when it is broken down.

 

7. People from other countries are horrible tippers; which, as someone who has had numerous years in the service industry, is not only an issue for foreigners. Whereas many foreigners have not been educated on the reasons behind "service charges", I can assure you that I would rather have someone not tip me because they don't understand the policies than an individual who feels that they are entitled to treat me as their servant instead of server.

 

8. Before someone decides to question the behavior of a foreigner in the USA, perhaps we should all open our eyes to the behavior that some Americans have, when visiting another country. If we desire respect, then it must be given as well.

 

9. To tip or not to tip. It is not my place to force anyone to hand out gratuities. All I ask, is that before you remove those "service charges" you consider how another person is being affected. I truly hope that everyone will consider this, not only on cruises, but also in general in any service environment. Even in a restaurant, when my server was horrible (and yes, even I admit that it happens), I have taken it upon myself to approach the management and requested that they distribute my gratuity to the other service members behind the scenes.

 

10. My biggest stress....When you are a customer, you are Entitled to receive a product worthy of your money; however you are not Entitled to treat anyone as if they are your SERVANTS, rather than servers. I am curious as to how many people even learn the crew member’s names; and yes, I know that some do, but what is the percentage? How many times have we stopped to ask "How is your day going?" rather than just "Where is my ....?"?

 

Okay...start yelling at me now...

 

Dennis

[sjbdtz]

sjbdtz I love how you think your opinion is the only one that counts

 

I haven't given you an opinion yet...but I'm getting close to doing so!

 

... you state that I am WRONG but you are stating your opinion, that is all it is, you are not all knowing.

 

Agreed. But I've read enough from people who are, and I've operated enough businesses to know how they operate. The information I'm sharing is not imaginary. It's factual.

 

Have you every asked while on a cruise if you could get the breakdown of how the DST was distributed?

Yes.

 

Perhaps you are the one that is WRONG.

Doubtful, since I'm regurgitating the collective information of hundreds of people.

 

I also love how when a point is backed by calling NCL Customer Support, with a question like this...

Customer Support person who had to ask his Supervisor (as soon as this happens, you have a game of telephone. Can you be certain that the question the CS person asked was the same question YOU asked?) then came back with an answer that was "yes, it is available but to get more information you need to wait until your on the ship or contact the Access Desk"... So the CS and the supervisor both said the Access Desk would know.

the Access Desk was able to confirm it and stated that because of different sail/ship rates it needs to be obtained onboard...So the Access Desk DIDN"T know?

and your answer is...

we know better because they suck (and yes that could be seen as twisting your words) I'm glad you see it that way, I would never have said such a thing.

 

Have you ever seen a website called Wikipedia? used a website called TripAdvisor (I think they own CruiseCritic)? These are sites which are built upon the notion that when the odds are played, the collective wisdom will be generally correct. In the vernacular, it's called Crowdsourcing.

 

We have contributors to this board who are active crewmemebers. We have ASKED them these very questions (We being the collective members on this board). If you search among the archival threads, you'll see their responses yourself.

 

Quite simply, it is not YOU who are wrong. It's what you have SAID that is wrong. You have opined that you prefer/intend to play three-card monte with your tips (and although you've stated that this won't be the case...we collectively know what happens in that game, if you aren't the shill). I have stated that this penalizes people you may not have considered. This is not an opinion of mine.

[sjbdtz]

You and I are on different wavelengths with regards to the tipping debate but on this...yeah, we agree.:D

 

 

Ahh.

[flattop223]

It is not even worth talking to you sjbdtz you have an OPINION I know it mine is different enough said :rolleyes:

[*Wink*]

It is not even worth talking to you sjbdtz you have an OPINION I know it mine is different enough said :rolleyes:

The breakdown on NCL ships is different than the breakdown on the NCLA ship.

 

Are you wanting to know WHO the DSC goes to? If so, the DSC goes to 3 areas. This is fact, so you can trust it.

 

Cabin Steward staff

 

Wait Staff minus the bar people

 

Maitre d' Staff

 

If you're wanting to know what percentage of the DSC these people get, I don't know why that would be your business, and neither does NCL.

 

You agree to pay the DSC in your cruise contract. The only reason NCL gives for you to "adjust" the DSC is for your perception of poor service and NCL's inability to fix the situation.

 

If you want to breach your agreement, that's up to you.

 

Trust me also on this: You are like countless other people that come on these boards and argue this issue in the exact way you have.

 

Here's what the majority of the people who read these arguments have concluded in each and every instance: This person is cheap.

 

You've been given information in this thread that removing the DSC and giving cash to each individual who would otherwise receive it, doesn't accomplish what you say you're trying to achieve.

 

The fact that you have chosen to ignore that fact proves to many of us that our conclusion is correct.

[sjbdtz]

The breakdown on NCL ships is different than the breakdown on the NCLA ship.

 

Are you wanting to know WHO the DSC goes to? If so, the DSC goes to 3 areas. This is fact, so you can trust it.

 

Cabin Steward staff

 

Wait Staff minus the bar people

 

Maitre d' Staff

 

If you're wanting to know what percentage of the DSC these people get, I don't know why that would be your business, and neither does NCL.

 

You agree to pay the DSC in your cruise contract. The only reason NCL gives for you to "adjust" the DSC is for your perception of poor service and NCL's inability to fix the situation.

 

If you want to breach your agreement, that's up to you.

 

Trust me also on this: You are like countless other people that come on these boards and argue this issue in the exact way you have.

 

Here's what the majority of the people who read these arguments have concluded in each and every instance: This person is cheap.

 

You've been given information in this thread that removing the DSC and giving cash to each individual who would otherwise receive it, doesn't accomplish what you say you're trying to achieve.

 

The fact that you have chosen to ignore that fact proves to many of us that our conclusion is correct.

 

Geez, Wink...I'll bet after this he'll think YOUR opinion isn't worth considering, either. ;)

 

It's funny how people come here, express their opinion...state that they're entitled to their opinion...and then freak out totally when someone expresses a conflicting 'opinion'. :rolleyes:

 

It really makes you wonder.

[flattop223]

hey Wink thanks for the info, if the break down you give is accurate then I would not want to chenge anything... also if you search all my posts you won't/shouldn't find a single one that I say I want to reduce the total for the DST. all I ever said was that based on the breakdown I might want to move it to another area... I don't see how having the exact amount just distributed differently would be cheap.