resetjet

32 minutes ago, robmtx said:

Since we have some knowledgeable people here today let me ask.

 

What is the likelihood they could quickly move enough debris from the main channel to permit ship traffic? There must be enough heavy lifting equipment on the East Coast that could at least help get the lane open? Vision isn't due for 9 days? Could they get the channel open by then?

I would say approximately zero.  This bridge is largely intact.  Gonna take a week or two or more  develop some type of plan.  Then the execution will take alot of time.   Probably months realistically.   I suppose they will have to blow it up,  i cant see another way to get it to small enough parts to then lift out.  Look how long it took to get the evergreen out.  

That whole story is clickbait.  Its no worse then any other year.  Not an issue at CC.  Costa Maya on the other hand is always full of it.

top # 1 answer on the board.....SUSHI.  Not only bacteria, but parasites,  Thats why all sushi sold in the USA must be frozen first, to kill all the parasites.  

18 hours ago, twangster said:

 

I have 12,000 users in a campus environment all on a single VLAN.  That is the current best practice for optimal roaming.  It's called the Single VLAN design and it spans multiple floors and buildings in a campus environment.   

 

https://www.arubanetworks.com/resource/single-vlan-design-for-wireless-lan/

 

If you do it by floor you can expereince issues when clients associate to a different floor as they move around and you will create roaming issues.  For example talking on a wifi call while walking around, going up stairs, into an open foyer where access points on multiple floors could be in play and so on.  My users can stream video or play on a game conole as they walk between buildings and never drop a session.  

 

In an environment like this you don't want one per floor. 

Thats a cool setup.  My line of thinking was because of the massive steel in between floors,  the signals are pretty much isolated anyway,  so why not break it up.  But i see your point. 

7 hours ago, twangster said:

 

What WiFi rates has your device negotiated?  How are you determining your LAN latency?

Guess and experience.  I designed and installed my resorts wifi network. I have 600 users,  they have   10,000 users on a metal ship.  If i were designing it i would have one for every floor.    I do not know but i am guessing also they have multiple wan connections as i do to split it up.  I have not personally worked with starlink so i dont know how that works,  but it seems is would be easy to have 5 different steams.

11 hours ago, twangster said:

 

Too much latency to the default gateway or to a destination on the internet?

Latency on the lan  Probably due to insufficient upload.  

Too many users for the installed equipment.  Latency sucks.  

Wow what a pass the buck.  The ta makes little to no $. I never use them on comp bookings.  Just complicates things.  And yes whatever you are sailing on when you book NC will be in the computer.  You have to tell them to take it out.

On 3/29/2023 at 11:10 PM, LinRon3 said:

I was going to start a new thread, but seemed close enough to question we have about booking shows before one even gets onboard.  A friend at the local pool today, going on the Harmony in April, was really dejected as he found out he and his wife was 'locked' out of both the skating shows in studio B AND the Grease production show.  He had no idea that one could book these shows BEFORE you get on the ship...nor did we.  We have always booked shows FIRST thing once onboard. Is this something new for Royal?  If so...we HATE it [as of course, our friend...who is planning to write a complaint to Royal...a fart in the wind, but heck, would feel good].

So this prompted me tonight to ask for more information on this NEW policy [new to us anyway]...and how to navigate around this horrible development?  We live in Florida, and we are accustomed to having things booked like the first minute after midnight the maximum alloted time by all the snowbirds coming down in their RV's for the winter...all computerized...really [especially state parks...some that are IMPOSSIBLE to get into].  So, is this what is going to happen on booking the shows on a given Royal ship?  Everything booked out the first few minutes after midnight when such bookings open up?  Being locked out, a month in advance of, say, one of the major attractions like the Grease production show on Harmony [like our friend is now]...well, that changes the whole complextion of why even go in the first place [we book the mega ships ourselves, mainly due to the shows aboard].  We've never had a problem booking once on board...but now who knows.  Any words of wisdom here that we can cheer our friend up, and perhaps take some of the SCARE out of us [we have two Royal cruises later in the year].  More rat race it looks like; not just for the lido lounges!

This is a major problem that rccl needs to address. You can book all you want in advance on day 1 of opening which isnt even clear.  Otherwise you can try once onboard for the scraps and if you are savvy or are willing to accept obstructed view you can do it onboard. Why not let everyone book 2 shows and fight the rest out onboard. Why reward the bored who are on the computer all day?

22 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Did I say that?  What I said was that the USPH/CDC regulations are stricter than virtually any local/state health regulation in the US.  This has been confirmed by the USPH inspectors themselves, most of whom were formerly state/local health inspectors prior to joining USPH.

I researched the cdc vessel plan and the usph requirements and they are the same as local.

Anyway that is all out the window as every pool and spa has a designed bathing load.  In fact the frequency of water changes is calculated by the number of USERS.  On a ship this is insane.  Nowhere does the number of users approach that of on a ship.  
in addition the design bathing load is not enforced.  Therefore everything else is out the window.

Once i started researching this topic,  in addition to my personal illness from a ships hot tub,  i was unaware of the number of Illnesses that can be and are contracted in any public hot tub anywhere.  

Finally,  i am aware thatpeople get sick everywhere from a variery of avoidable behaviors,  My experienced has ruined my love for hot tubs.  I could not even sit in there without being grossed out.  So to each their own.  The odds are low,  but they are there.  Everyone individually  needs to figure out if its worth it to them.  
 

Anyway thanks for your input, I dont mean to be adversarial,  I just have a strong opinion and training and experience in this area.  I am very thankful we have such a knowledgeable individual here on ships.  

The thing is most people i talk to on ships didnt pay a thin dime for their cruise.  We have not paid doe the last 8 cruises.  They are losing money on us.

The funny thing is,  most people would never consider bathing in a bath tub that just one individual had already used,  maybe even if its your spouse or

family.  But they will readily jump into a hot tub,  drink in hand,  smiling while they say hello to the eight other questionable people that have been in there for hours.  

12 minutes ago, JeffT237 said:

 

I don't think anyone thinks your "nutty", you had a horrible experience which shapes your future behavior.  That's perfectly reasonable.  You also have experience in the industry. But you also seem to convey that cruise hot tubs are unsafe and should not be used, at least indirectly you're saying that.  

 

I can Google or YouTube lot's of things about cruise safety and health, I could link to them and go on and on page after page to make my point.  Lookup cruise ship illnesses from the buffet, assaults on ships, Noro, excursion accidents, theft on ships etc.  Go to the "cruise lawyer's" website and see how unsafe cruising is according to him....not just hot tub use. I sympathize with you for your experience, that must have been tough. But many feel differently and use the hot tubs regularly without incident. They will have a "Happy soaking!!!!"  Just watch human behavior on a cruise ship and you'll see many unsanitary practices by passengers.  Travel related illness and accidents happen regularly, but common sense tells me that millions cruise every year without incident.  Doesn't mean something bad can't happen.  The major travel industries aren't in the business of wanting to see its customers get sick and face lawsuits. Again sorry for your past experience.  

 

I'm presuming you're going to test them yourself, and if like you say they fail the test you bring on board what will your next action be? Alert all of the passengers? The staff? 

I understand completely what you are saying.  I have also had many cruise ship illnesses as well.  But this topic is about the hot tubs.  
 

what should be done to make them safer…..well its all technology.  Maybe the newer ships have or will have it.   Maybe restrict to 6 people at a time would help

too.

since i have training and expertise in this area i am sharing what i know with those who do not.  Its my opinion and i do not know it all.  
 

i will test for my own opinion and to post the results here good or bad.  I will get cups of water indiscriminately from the tubs and do the testing in my room.  
 

trust me,  the crew already knows exactly what they are experiencing.  I dont need to tell them anything.  
 

18 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

That may be true for pools, but the turbulence in a hot tub accelerates the off-gassing.

 

Realize that the cruise ships do not follow your local/state health regulations, but those of the CDC, so read the Vessel Sanitation Plan for the required tests and limits.  Just a note, that the CDC did a study of several hundred land pools, and found that over 80% of them would fail the CDC's requirements, and about 70% of child splash areas would be immediately closed if subject to the CDC's requirements.

 

Are public hot tubs appealing?  Not to me personally.  Are they safe?  Yes.

So hot tubs on ships are safe but not on land,  that are not open 16 hours a day?  
There is no situation that i can think of where the bathing loads even come close to what i see on ships. Plus the number of small children. It stands to reason a higher metric would apply vs land.  
Anyway i am living proof that they are NOT always safe.  I’ll bring my test kits on the next one and post what i find. 
i am a certified pool operator and have many years of experience taking care of my resorts large overcrowded pool.  If you  talk to my cpo instructor, who is one of the most knowlegeable people in the united states on aquatics and he will give you an earful.  The simple fact is they are not safe 100% of the time on land or sea.  But i am quite sure worse at sea due to the absolutely extreme bathing loads in the tubs.

Most of these people made or inherited alot of money and are old and some have no kids to leave it to.

4 hours ago, jean87510 said:

I got a skin reaction to hot tubs both at neighbors hottub and one at an airbnb at the shore.  Pretty uncomfortable.  It's why <I keep my hottub clean and always drain and scrub after parties.  I don't care what the measuring levels are for chlorine on the ship's hottubs.  Anyone who drinks in the hottub and sits in there all day is peeing in the hottub.  Therefore I chose to use the outside showers to rinse off if Im hot outside and drink in the shade.  Or stay on my balcony where my bathroom is a few feet away.

Rashes are very common,  if you use bromine instead,  it will cut down on that. Its a better solution for a personal hot tub imo.

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Combined chlorine, in the form of chloramines will off-gas to the atmosphere.

Yes over the course of many hours or days.  Its unhealthy right now.  What do you do?  My health dept allows a combined chlorine of .4ppm.  What is is on ships?  I am gonna have some fun with this on the next cruise.  I am willing to bet not one hot tub will pass this test.  

If anyone thinks i am nutty just google “skin infection from cruise ship hot tub.”  Pages upon pages of results.  Happy soaking!!!!

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

So, the evaporation lowers the total chlorine, and the measuring sensors and dosing pumps keep replenishing it, and you have a stable chlorine level.

 

And, neither dpd or titration give a continuous reading, which the amperometric sensors used on ships do.

You are still going to have to explain what they do when the total chlorine is 10,  the combined chlorine is 8 and the free chlorine is 2.  You simply cannot leave people in the tub,  period the end.  I have never seen them kick everyone out and close a tub.  Only in the case of poop in spa does that happen.

7 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Depending on what kind of test strips are used, the pink coloration that determines chlorine level can get bleached out at high chlorine levels, so the strip appears to read zero.

 

As for total chlorine level, it is interesting that home pool and hot tub manufacturers recommend a 1-3ppm level, while the USPH/CDC requires a 1-4ppm level for a pool, and a 3-10ppm level for a hot tub, and the CDC recommends this for all public hot tubs (though they have no jurisdiction over land hot tubs).

 

https://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/swimming/aquatics-professionals/operating-public-hot-tubs.html

Strips are inaccurate and not allowed to be used by most health departments.  A dpd kit is way better.  Trust me,  i am trained in this area.  There was lots of chlorine cant remember but near 10,  smelled to high heaven from the chloromines and zero free chlorine.  Unless there is some magical system,  the only way to fix it is kick everyone out and shock it or drain it.

1 hour ago, RedIguana said:

The efficacy of chlorine disinfection increases with temperature. It works better at higher temps.

That may be true but because it evaporates so fast at high temps it is the opposite effect.  

1 hour ago, JeffT237 said:

 

So to the original question you would say hot tubs are unsafe?  What would your solution be? Take the hot tubs out of service as they're too dangerous or maintain them in a different way to make them safer? 

My suggestion and it may already exist on newer ships is to have a continous system that removes water from the hot tub and replaces it with fresh,  preheated chlorinated water.  This system would be somewhat complex,  especially given the locations of hot tubs on the ship.  It would cost a ton in chlorine and would have environmental impacts(discharge the filthy chlorinated water). But it could be done.  It would also

be possible to have a large tank where the water can go to be superchlorinated and allowed to sit before being reintroduced.  The main problem is a gallon of chlorinated water only has so much santizing capability and its worse at high temps.  The hot tubs are very small,  hot and packed with people.  
 

Again the risk of infection is small,  but it happens and if you went through what i did,  you will never get in another one.  

6 hours ago, Blur said:

Chlorine/bromine you knew what I meant.

 

Pretty sure urine has to be fresh (and yours) to be "ok" to drink.  And any urine in the tub is prob way passed due... 😉.  

 

Def agree on your statement on #2 cleanliness.  When I do feel the need to use the hot tub (usually for muscles after flowrider or cold temps)  I'll use the near by shower immediately after I get out and then shower back in the room when able.  I use fancy air drying bidets at home so I know the differences between tp, wipes, bidet, and shower 😜

Ships apparently use chlorine according to cheng. Bromine is better,  less rashes but it stinks.  Usually you can smell the difference.  
 

yes you know the difference.  We were on celebrity in the solarium warm pool.  Saw some tp floating around and that was it.  As we all know some people dont shower often.  

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

No, the sensors measure "residual" chlorine, which is the free chlorine level after the water comes back to the pump from the hot tub, and some of the chlorine has been used up in sanitizing.  It is the amount of "free chlorine" that has not been used up.  If there was 0ppm of residual chlorine, the ship would be in serious trouble at the next USPH inspection, as the recording charts are kept for a year for review.

Well there was because i measured it.  I will bring my kit next time and do some posts.  If you know sanitation,  you will also know that it is unhealthy to have

more then 10 ppm total chlorine.  Adding more chlorine is not an option.  The only way to fix it is empty the hot tub of people or drain it.  If water is left in,  Super chlorinate it,  unlock the combined chlorine then either wait or add de-chlor to being the level back down to 10 or below.  Somehow i do not see this happening on ships.  The simple fact is that chlorine does not work as well at high temps,  bacteria,  algae and fungi flourish and with the bathing load being higher then design,  its impossible to protect 100% of the time.  Its probably ok most of the time but trust me,  sooner or later you will find one that isnt.  Rashes,  infections,  pimples are the result.  That crew lawyer has it posted on this main page as one of the number one people he represents,  hot tub infections.  

6 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Let's put out some facts about ship's hot tubs, both public and private.

 

The hot tubs are kept at a constant chlorine level of 3-10ppm, much higher than the recommended 3ppm for home hot tubs.  Further, it is maintained at this level constantly, since while the water is being recirculated, it passes a chlorine content meter, and the reading from this meter adjusts the chlorine dosing pump that runs all the time.  The chlorine content of the hot tub is recorded on a chart, and is kept for review by the USPH, when they make their inspections.

 

By regulation, the water in all hot tubs must be changed every 72 hours, but most lines do it nightly.  When the hot tub is drained, it is washed with bleach, and then "super-chlorinated" to 20ppm, and circulated for one hour, before being diluted to normal, in order to remove any "bio-film" anywhere in the piping system.

 

Any time there is a fecal accident, the hot tub must be drained and sanitized using 100ppm chlorine.

 

Individual (cabin) hot tubs must be chlorinated to 10ppm, and circulated for 1 hour, between guests.

 

One thing that can affect how well chlorine sanitizes the water is sunscreen.  This forms an oily layer that coats the surface of the water, and restricts the chlorine's ability to react with the oxygen in the air, limiting the sanitizing reaction.  This is why cruise ships are required to have showers on deck near pools and hot tubs, to rinse off sunscreen before going in the pools/tubs.

10 ppm is total chlorine.  We tested it on a carnival cruise and it had zero free chlorine.  (Unsafe). Really 1 ppm free is unsafe in a hot tub.  If you can smell chlorine it has a high combined chlorine as you are smelling the chloromines.  If you want to be safe.  Get some test strips and check before you get in.  Free chlorine has to be 2 or higher.  Years ago i got a terrible resistant staff infection on day 6 from the hot tub.  The ship dr indicated it had been contracted in the time frame inwas onboard.  1.5 years later,  with scars all over my body from it eating my skin,  we finally found the right antibiotic that would kill it.  I am a certified pool operator and i oversee aquatics at my resort.  Trust me, although you will be safe most of the time,  you wont always be safe.  I love hot tubs but i wont go anywhere near them with that kind of bathing load. Its all good til you end up like me or worse,  ecoli.