Rumball

I have the same question as the original post.

Any feedback - positive or negative - about MSC and getting an extra cabin key card?

I'm sure if I pay someone $50 in cash, it adds $50 to his/her income.

Well, actually it doesn't because it has been demonstrated repeatedly that funds given directly to an employee must be turned into the tipping pool.

Hey Rocketman, you must be right because you preface all your comments by saying "actually".

Anyway, if I give someone a tip it's meant for that person. Unless I suggest otherwise it's not for a pool. If that person chooses to share it, or if that person is coerced by an employer to share it, that's not consistent with my intention but it's beyond my control.

A tip should not be about control. It's a personal gesture to acknowledge good service.

Sadly auto-tipping is a product of cruise lines exerting their control and extinguishing an opportunity for personalized gestures. I say extinguish because the expected response of "well you can always pay cash to individuals and pay the auto-tip too" ignores the reality that most folks can't and won't. If the cruise lines begin targeting their product to the 1% instead of the 10%, ships will start "sinking".

Actually, that isn't the case either. If you look at the link (provided repeatedly), you'll notice this on the HAL website: "Is There A Hotel Service Charge (Gratuity/Tip)?" So, actually, HAL uses those terms interchangeably.

I think it's been pointed out they don't. Actually.

There is plenty of "tolerance for contrary opinions" when those "contrary opinions" have the basis in reality/facts that yours so clearly do not.

So clearly?? You must have meant to say "actually".

Looking at HAL's website today I notice automatic service charges are increasing for cruises departing after May 1 2017. Also notice, though it is only obvious by comparing the new policy to the old, that daily hotel service charges per person CAN NO LONGER BE ADJUSTED.

 

 

 

I have just read the money matters on the HAL website and it clearly states you can adjust the HSC as copied below directly from the "Is there a HSC (Gratuity/Tip)?" answer. This is stated in the paragraph following the table of current and new charges.

 

If our service exceeds or fails to meet your expectations, you are free to adjust this amount at the end of each segment and/or voyage. The Hotel Service Charge is paid entirely to Holland America Line crew members, and represents an important part of their compensation.

 

 

I see that now. Unfortunately there is another document on the website called "2017 What You Need To Know Before You Go" that describes the HSC at p. 16 but doesn't explicitly mention it's adjustable. Probably just an oversight. Here's a link to that document: https://www.hollandamerica.com/assets/cruise-vacation-onboard/KBYG.pdf

You are the one that suggested that it is not all going to employees.

 

US accounting rules are very specific on how tips must be handled in accounting systems and how they must be reported in SEC financial filings. One of those rules is that the company MUST distribute all gratuities to employees.

 

If they were not distributing all tips to employees it would be very obvious in their financial filings. Failure to properly disclose if filings would put them in violation of SEC rules and result in them not being able to be listed on US exchanges.

I said if the payments get directed towards paying employee compensation, there's really no fraud.

I don't know how they structure the revenue, either do any of you. You are making assumptions in the cruiseline's favor. You may do so, but I am not required to.

I believe if I pay $50 or $500 or $1500 in hotel service charges, it does NOT add the equivalent amount collectively to what the crew would have otherwise received. I concede it's possible, I just don't believe it.

I'm sure if I pay someone $50 in cash, it adds $50 to his/her income.

Not sure why you still call it a 'tip', even HAL has moved away from that. It's a service charge. A tip is discretionary, not obligatory.

Nothing I've heard here changes my view. I've heard it all before.

Not angry at any of you. But seems there's not much tolerance for contrary opinions here.

It is also important to note that since the major cruise companies are listed on the US stock exchange they must follow US accounting law in their filings with SEC. Based upon some of the accounting rules the cruise lines would need to disclose if gratuities are not fully distributed to employees. Such rules allow gratuities to be handled outside of the accounting system (neither revenue nor expense) as long as certain rules are followed. The most important one being that funds received must be fully distributed.

I guess I missed the posting everyone seems to be responding to where someone suggested the cruise lines are not complying with the law.

I have no doubt the cruise lines became so invested in administering tips instead of leaving it all up to passengers because they saw an opportunity to spend more and recover nothing for it. Because cruise lines are generous that way, and are really all about helping everyone. Like a charity, sort of.

Oh yeah...but charities aren't listed on the US stock exchange. So maybe there's another reason.

I just can't figure it out....:evilsmile:

I do see the reference to the higher fee effective May 1, but I don't see anything about eliminating the ability of adjusting the HSC. ???

 

https://www.hollandamerica.com/cruise-vacation-planning/PlanningAndAdvice.action?tabName=Shipboard%20Life&contentMenu=Money%20Matters&contentSubMenu=Is%20There%20A%20Hotel%20Service%20Charge%20(Gratuity%2FTip)#

I thought the policy was unclear so I asked. A HAL agent tells me the service charge is adjustable. Not sure how far ahead that applies, but I accept that's the case at least for now.

And knowing in advance, you budget for it.

I agree

Would a crew member respond in a manner designed to please a customer who "probed" trying to get a specific response?

Would a crew member tell you they didn't receive the service charge hoping that would be an incentive for you to tip them again?

You alleged that this happens on "different lines" as well as Holland. How did the cruise lines keep this quiet? Why haven't there been multiple law suits?

I don't know about lawsuits. But if you structure the payments such that service charge revenue gets directed towards paying employee compensation, there's really no fraud. The cruise lines aren't claiming the service charges are added to employee's salary dollar for dollar as additional income. That's just what some folks maybe want to believe, or try to persuade or shame others to believe. And I suppose the cruise lines don't mind if folks believe that, even though the cruise lines aren't exactly saying that.

It's less convenient to reach into your pockets and hand an actual dollar or two to someone whom you wanna tip, I get that. But it works. And you know it works.

First of all, there is no "money matters" section under "Shipboard Life"

Second, and most importantly, there is a "Shipboard Life" section and that section is the one I linked above and it includes the following:

 

 

https://www.hollandamerica.com/cruise-vacation-planning/PlanningAndAdvice.action?tabName=Shipboard%20Life&contentMenu=Money%20Matters&contentSubMenu=Is%20There%20A%20Hotel%20Service%20Charge%20(Gratuity%2FTip)#

 

"If our service exceeds or fails to meet your expectations, you are free to adjust this amount at the end of each segment and/or voyage."

which totally refutes your claim.

It also includes the following:

"The Hotel Service Charge is paid entirely to Holland America Line crew members, and represents an important part of their compensation."

which totally refutes your claim that the crew does not receive all of the service charge.

 

Now, if you still insist that the crew doesn't receive the service charge, you are free to engage a lawyer and sue Holland for fraudulent advertising.

If a crew member feels he or she doesn't receive the service charge, that crew member might feel free to retain a lawyer...but why would I? Because I hold a viewpoint that differs from you? Thanks for your helpful suggestion.

On page 16 of the linked document it addresses Hotel Service Charge, as posted, under Shipboard Life. Just posting HAL's document by the way, I didn't draft it.

Anyway maybe someone who is sailing in the next month or so can report back on whether they were successful in adjusting these new service charges. I'd be curious to find out. I am only trying to interpret the new policy because I think it is unclear. And practice on board the ships in my experience does not always line up with the website policy anyway. In some ways the shipboard practice may be better, sometimes it's worse. It all depends.

thanks, and happy cruising...

There is a financial incentive for a crew member to say they don't receive their full portion.

There is also an incentive for the crew member to tell the passenger what they perceive the passenger wants to hear.

Would a crew member fearful of losing his/her job say they receive auto-tips when they don't ?? hmm...

Would a crew member fearful of losing his/her job say they are happy as can be, when they are not?? hmm....

Would a crew member smile all day long because they are just that happy, or because they are fearful of losing their job if they don't smile all day long?? hmm...

Please post a link to the policy change. The Holland website I access says: "If our service exceeds or fails to meet your expectations, you are free to adjust this amount at the end of each segment and/or voyage. The Hotel Service Charge is paid entirely to Holland America Line crew members, and represents an important part of their compensation. A 15% Bar Service Charge is automatically added to bar charges and Dining Room wine purchases. In terminals, airports, ports of call and on shore excursions, we suggest that you extend gratuities consistent with customary local practices." This page also notes the change in amounts.

Here's the link.

https://www.hollandamerica.com/cruise-vacation-planning/PlanningAndAdvice.action?tabName=Shipboard%20Life&contentMenu=Money%20Matters&contentSubMenu=Is%20There%20A%20Hotel%20Service%20Charge%20(Gratuity%2FTip)#

Here's the link to the 2017 policy, go to page 16:

https://www.hollandamerica.com/assets/cruise-vacation-onboard/KBYG.pdf

HOTEL SERVICE CHARGE

Our crew works very hard to make sure that every aspect of your cruise meets the highest standards. This includes those crew members who serve you directly, such as Dining Room wait staff and the stewards who service your stateroom each day. There are also many others who support their efforts whom you may never meet, such as galley and laundry staff. To ensure that the efforts of all of our crew members are recognized and rewarded, a daily Hotel Service Charge is automatically added to each guest’s shipboard account.

For sailings departing on or prior to April 30, 2017 the daily Hotel Service Charge for suites is USD$13.50* per guest per day, and USD$12.50* per guest per day for other staterooms. For sailings departing on or after May 1, 2017 the daily Hotel Service Charge for suites is USD$15.00* per guest per day, and USD$13.50* per guest per day for other staterooms (*The charges are subject to change without notice.) For more details, please visit "Money Matters" under the Shipboard Life section of our website at hollandamerica. com. The Hotel Service Charge is paid to Holland America Line crew members, and represents an important part of their compensation. A 15% Bar Service Charge is automatically added to bar charges and Dining Room wine purchases. In terminals, airports, ports of call and on shore excursions, we suggest that you extend gratuities consistent with customary local practices.

On what do you base this belief? I have had crew members (on different lines) tell me they did receive the full amount.

I have had crew members, on different lines, tell me they did not.

They did not volunteer it, I probed because I was curious. I am satisfied I know the truth now. I spend a lot more time cruising than I do surfing this board scrapnana.

It used to be pay cash if you want to tip an individual. Otherwise, you are tipping a cruiseline.

Now the cruiseline is calling it what it is - a hotel service charge - that you cannot adjust. But shamefully, they are pitching it as a means to increase the income of the workers on board. That is shameful because the service charge is a revenue enhancer not a tip. If you feel the workers are underpaid it's because their employers - the cruiselines - underpay them. As far as the cruiselines are concerned they meet the minimum labour requirements of the jurisdictions they are bound to follow (not typically where passengers live) so they are complying with "the law" and workers are obviously satisfied with what they are paid or why else would they come work on the ship?

If you feel the cruise staff deserve more than the cruiseline pays them to serve you, tip them. But tip them with cash. And accept your cash goes only to the worker you are paying. Forget about the worker hidden away in the bowels of the ship pressing your ships or loading coal into the burners (I know)...there's no chance your tip will ever get to him/her, regardless of how hard you try. Live with it.

Again, this isn't about tips, it's about service charges. Not the same thing. HAL isn't even calling it gratuities anymore, they call it a service charge. Like a resort fee. Just a way of charging you more for nothing. Like a resort fee in Vegas. I say nothing because no, it's not a tip. Tips are what you pay in cash to someone you wanna tip. This is an added charge. And it's significant. And now, for the first time, it appears to be non-adjustable. So every person booking a cruise should be aware of this significant automatic non-adjustable added charge they will pay on board. That's all I wanted to say. Know before you book.

Readers have to get through the main message (you can't adjust the service charge anymore folks) before getting to all the cheers for hotel service charges. At least each response bumps the post.

The target of my post is families budgeting for a holiday, not cruise line enhanced revenue cheerleaders.

There has been a material change in HAL's policy, maybe people ought to know?

Rumball

Looking at HAL's website today I notice automatic service charges are increasing for cruises departing after May 1 2017. Also notice, though it is only obvious by comparing the new policy to the old, that daily hotel service charges per person CAN NO LONGER BE ADJUSTED.

The OLD policy (in effect until recently) permitted adjustments of the daily service charge by attending at the front desk and filling out a simple form, no questions asked:

Check out the new 2017 policy under "Money Matters" on HAL's website. The new policy essentially removes the first sentence from the old policy. They don't bring this to your attention. It's actually very subtle. But the effect appears to be HAL is now charging a non-adjustable hotel service charge. There's a growing trend among the cruiselines to find revenue from charging mandatory service charges, HAL is moving with the trend. Its new policy is in line with NCL's. A family of 4 is looking at over USD $50 per day in daily service charges. These are over and above the auto-gratuities charged on drinks etc. It all adds up.

To be certain, I am not interested in re-igniting a senseless old debate about the merits of tipping. Heard it all before from the cruiseline cheerleaders and the cruiseline insiders guised as cheerleaders. I firmly subscribe to the view that the only tips the staff ever see are the cash you slip them discretely. The rest of these charges are cruiseline revenue/profit shamelessly pitched as gratuities. I say don't be fooled or shamed by cheerleaders.

It is important for families to consider, before booking a "discounted" fare on HAL, that for a one week cruise add maybe $350 to the fare you pay. For a three-week cruise, add over a thousand. A couple adds half those amounts per cabin, for even the cheapest cabin on board. But it's still a big factor to consider before booking your next cruise...the industry is always "evolving".

OK...I have to ask...what the heck is gravol??!! Motion sickness med or sleep aid or what?!:confused:

motion sickness med, that has the nice side effect of being an effective sleep aid.

bring gravol too. the gravel will just weigh you down. :D sashasasha...you must be Cdn, like me. I can't remember what our US friends call it, but I think they call it something other than gravol.:) P.S. the rocking wasn't so bad, it was vibrations and rattling in the aft cabins. it doesn't make you ill, it just annoys you if you can't get your mind off it, and potentially, keep you awake!

...but I should add our experience was similar to royalcruise's in that the first night is the worst. you do get used to it.

sorry, we were on deck 10. no minimization at all. you will feel it.

just got back from two weeks in an aft inside cabin aboard Orchestra.

sorry, they vibrate. a lot. surprisingly my wife who is usually a very light sleeper found the rattling to be soothing. I usually sleep like a baby and found it to be a real pain in the ***, but I slept through most of it anyway.

enjoy!!