bshow

Damn right I'd have with you! :)

 

 

 

I don't want be a 'PITA', but I think your comments are based on a lack of good knowledge on the subject. Anyhow who deals with safety on board thinks differently. You are thinking from the perspective of a passenger. To be honest, the Muster Drill should be a whole lot more 'involved', but for obvious reasons, it wouldn't work. The present drill is the bare MINIMUM experience that a passenger could stand. That does not mean that the whole drill should be scrapped. Muster Drills have been standard since the sinking of the TITANIC. The passenger drills are quite tame.... it is the minimum that passengers can stand. Behind the scenes... the drills are nothing like they used to be.... even twenty years ago were differently. For the passengers... it is the standard muster for any ship for a hundred years. The signals, put on your lifejacket and then go to your boat. That is all they want passengers is to understand, "this is not a joke". So saying that the musters are a waste of time....it is not.

 

 

 

Eg.... HAL passenger drills are out on deck. Seems like it is nothing. Crowd control? Yes, it is... for good reasons. It helps the crew to deal with the passengers.... in a crowded situation. This is important. So.... the passengers and at least the crew can help passengers out of the ship and out onto the deck. Experience. OK... what about the ships where the passenger muster is held in a lounge or other space. Personally, I do not like it at all. Many reasons. I prefer the HAL method. So.... the drill is held inside. And then what happens in a real situation? Hmmm? You have a thousand passengers in a lounge that have to be escorted from a lounge... away from one area to send them out onto an enclosed deck and then you have to line them up and put into the boats. Meanwhile.... the crew have no first hand experience of taking passengers from to that lounge and then out onto deck for the boats. It is a very vital missing experience.... not only from passengers... from the crew as well.

 

 

 

OK... this is just ONE of the reasons drills are done. Might seem unnecessary but it is. The passenger drill is just the small step to the beginning of your cruise. I hope it will be a great cruise, but believe me.... there have been thousands, THOUSANDS passengers that thought the drill was a nonsense and have ended up wet, cramped, cold and seasick in the bottom of a lifeboat!

 

 

 

Let's have that second beer!

Excellent explanation, thank you! I look forward to raising a glass!

Cheers

You still think it is 'ridiculous and ineffective.'

 

 

 

If you are so 'smart', then why don't you come up with better ideas to deal with emergencies on board ship.

I don't have any interest in being a world-improver. The world has enough of those already; what could I add? I just observe and give my perspective. I try to be friendly and not argue ad hominem.

And yes, I still think it is ridiculous. And (mostly) ineffective.

But if I see you on the ship, I will buy you a beer! (After the drill, of course!)

Cheers :)

So since you can't seem to win your argument about muster drills you decide, instead, to talk about hotels??? Sounds like the Chewbacca defense...

 

:rolleyes:

Hi dakrewser,

Merely an exploration, by analogy, of whether "better than nothing" is a valid criterion. I already conceded that the muster drill is better than nothing.

There's no argument to be "won". Just observation and discussion. I have no interest in bending anyone to my will. I just make observations and ask questions.

I confess that am ignorant of the "Chewbacca defense", sorry...

Cheers :)

As to your last sentence, it's better than nothing. Nothing led to what happened with the Concordia disaster.

Putting aside the huge issue of whether that last assertion is actually true, I've not advocated "nothing". Why do folks persist in attacking straw men?

I agree with you the current system is possibly better than "nothing". That's a long way from effective.

There were nearly three times as many deaths (and more than ten times as many injuries) in the 1980 MGM Grand hotel fire as in the Concordia disaster. (There were about 5000 people in the hotel vs. about 4200 people on the ship, so the magnitudes were roughly comparable.) And yet, we do "nothing". When you check into a hotel, should everyone be marched to the parking lot where they line up for roll call and listen to the mandatory safety briefing "for their own good"? Why not? Wouldn't that be better than "nothing?"

Cheers :)

You must have really hated school fire drills.

No, you're wrong. As have been all the other attempts to psychoanalyze me or impute various attitudes to me. I was, well, a *kid* at the time, and I was mostly indifferent to the fire drills.

I don't hate the muster drill (and you won't find me actually saying that anywhere, but that fact doesn't inconvenience my critics, lol). As I think I stated originally, it's a minor annoyance or indignity. I'm personally able to stand without difficulty, and it's never been much of an issue.

I attend the dumb thing as required, stand where I'm told, pipe up when my room number is called, pay attention to the announcements and instruction, etc. like a good citizen. Nobody is inconvenienced by me one bit.

It's still ridiculous and ineffective. It purports to achieve something that it doesn't in fact achieve. Just attend one of these things and look around...

Cheers :)

JMO, not a fact but......I'm sure if it was voluntary you are correct that's lots would not bother because most people think nothing bad will ever happen to them. I have a funny feeling that if it were voluntary and then there was an actual emergency however, the ones would who chose NOT to attend would be the first ones (if they make it off) to contact an attorney because the cruise line did not better prepare them!

Yes, possibly. Especially given the state of jurisprudence wrt struct liability, assumption of risk, etc.

Hi,

 

I appreciate if someone would kindly answer my questions about this room and this ship. We are currently holding this room, and about to pay deposit later today. Although we travelled before with other lines (Disney, Princess and Celebrity), this would be only the second time with HAL (last time was an inside cabin on Zaandam).

 

- It is in a V category. Is this the lowest category in all the Verandah cabins?

 

- Is it at a noisy location? From the deck plan it seems fine, but I'd like to hear some insight from all of you.

 

- It seems the balcony of the cabin locates above the lifeboat, would that obstruct view somehow?

 

- I understand Eurodam is in a different class from Zaandam and slight bigger in size. Is it very noticeable when you are on board? We are very happy last time on Zaandam, even DD (14 at that time) was in love with it and said it was her favorite ship.

 

Thank you all in advance.

 

CZ

V5066 is considered a premium location midship. The lowest verandah category staterooms are those on deck 4 far forward.

Noise won't be an issue. About the quietest location you can get.

You will see the top of the lifeboat if you look down, but it won't obstruct your view.

Haven't been on the Zaandam, so can't answer comparisons. I've been on Eurodam several times and have never felt it to be too large or crowded.

Enjoy your cruise!

In your case... make it TWO years.

 

 

Why don't you just call your local US Coast Guard and ask what they think. Or next cruise... call the Captain and ask him.

 

 

Do you think all of the drills are just for 'fun' and a waste of time? Well, the rest of the maritime industry thinks that is not a waste of time.

Wow, why all the aggression?

Anyway, they are definitely not "just for fun". And yes, they are (mostly) a waste of time.

HAND :)

I am not saying that you are stupid. I am saying that you are badly informed on the subject. You can challenge what? Effectiveness of drills? Spend a year reading up on the subject on Safety of Life At Sea and then come back with comments.

Gosh, a year of studying before I'm allowed to comment? Can you save me time and point me to some actual evidence that these drills are as effective as you claim?

I'm sure you're familiar with the principle of diminishing returns as applied to risk mitigation. Why should we just accept unquestioningly that the current "one size fits all" implementation of these drills strikes the right balance?

Thanks Cheng.

 

I have a short fuse with people that do not try to understand the point of Emergency Drills. It is for their own benefit and it is their own sorry backside that will be need saving by someone else!

 

Stephen

Sorry to have lit your fuse. So it boils down to you are smart and I am stupid? I understand the "point" of the drills; I challenge their effectiveness. You haven't addressed that at all; you've just called me names.

I didn't say the drill wasn't about training...

I know; that was tongue in cheek, of course. I'll let you have the last word, except for this:

What Topsham was saying, I believe, is that your attitude that there should be nothing anywhere that is mandatory on my vacation is wrong.

If that's indeed what Topsham was saying, then you're both wrong. I have no such attitude and you won't find me saying that anywhere. I asked why not make the muster drill voluntary.

Cheers!

I have no idea. But I think the current drill could be eliminated totally and not impact passenger safety to any significant degree. Or just make it voluntary (more on that below).

 

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The worst kind of passenger.... a selfish boor.

 

 

Was that directed at me? If so, I don't quite follow your point.

So, my question to you is; how would you do things differently? What would be better to provide for passenger safety without "using the law as cover"?

I have no idea. But I think the current drill could be eliminated totally and not impact passenger safety to any significant degree. Or just make it voluntary (more on that below).

As anyone who has done emergency training and has experienced emergency situations will know, there is no guarantee that even the best trained personnel will not be able to "run towards the fire" when it actually happens. The best way to improve the odds is "muscle memory", or training, so that the correct response is automatic. The passenger muster drill is training for passengers, even though once through is hardly enough. Would you want a daily drill? Required training before going on a ship?

I totally agree with you on the need for training. For the crew. Passengers are not crew and will never be.

The passengers are no more "trained" after the drill than before. 90% of the dumb drill is taking roll. If you pay attention during the relevant portions of the drill, you know three things: the signals, where your lifeboat is, and how to put on your life jacket. All of which you can (and should!) study and practice by yourself, if you are so motivated.

And if you are not so motivated, that could very well be a reasonable choice. Some people buy insurance; some don't. Everyone has a different level of risk tolerance. I would say a huge number of people would not attend the drill if it were voluntary; wouldn't you agree? But if it is so obviously valuable and important, everyone would attend eagerly, no?

While you are correct in that the person most liable for your personal safety is you, do you really think that your safety depends solely on yourself

No, of course not, and I never said any such thing. I depend on the training of the crew and the design of the safety equipment and procedures.

, or would the actions of the rest of the thousands of passengers possibly affect your ability to survive? Could the fact that some passengers would not take the time you do to study where to go, and get lost, causing crew to be diverted to searching for them, rather than their primary emergency function, cause an incident to escalate and increase your odds of not surviving?

Sure, that's possible. But the drill does little or nothing to affect that. Next time you're at one of these passenger drills, just look around. You can force people to be there, but you can't force them to pay attention.

Or are you fully trained in maritime fire fighting and lifeboat operation?

I don't need to be. The drill doesn't provide that training, so what are you talking about?

The "indignity" of the muster drill is required for just the reason that you and all the passengers are not trained, so you are herded like cattle (to be blunt), to some place of safety while the professionals get on with the job.

Good to see you agree with me that the drill is not about training, but about herding and control. ;)

The muster drill is completely ridiculous and ineffective. Just one of the relatively minor (and few, thankfully) indignities that come with cruising.

Your actual chances of survival will depend, I submit, on your personal cognizance of the abundant and detailed safety information available right in your cabin. You need to actually think about where to go, what the sounds are, etc.

The drill is not about your safety at all. It may provide the cruise line with some measure of liability protection in the event of injuries during an incident, and so the industry goes along, using "the law" as cover...

The downside is advertising. EVERY cruise line would have to do it or the ones that include it in the price would always be more expensive for a cabin...Because everyone WILL see the ~$100.00 higher price per pax and NO ONE will see the *Hotel Service charge $13 / day extra" in 2 point type on the bottom of the add for the "Lower" priced fares from lines that do not include it in the price.

This. Same reason gasoline prices still end in 9/10 cents. First to change is at a big disadvantage.

If you have an iOS device (and ideally, a Mac), you can use the included Notes app for stuff like this. You can sync devices using iCloud. Similar to Dropbox, but you do not need internet access after you sync; your notes on on your phone/iPad. I'm sure Android devices have similar apps available.

The recent thread about headphone jacks on the TV got me thinking. I have been on a number of cruises, and I know for a fact that I have never watched TV on the ship.

There is usually some welcome aboard stuff playing when you enter your stateroom. I switch it off and it never comes on again. I would be fine if there was no TV.

I cruised on a large ship on another line a few years ago. In the morning, they would play the insufferable Today Show and the nearly-as-insufferable cruise director program on a giant screen over the lido deck. I resolved to avoid that type of ship in the future, because I enjoy the lido area.

So I'm curious: do you all watch TV on the ship? I suppose I'm the oddball, but there may be one or two who do the same...

OP, it stinks that you weren't able to dive. Thanks for the heads-up that might help others in future. Did you get a refund of the price you paid?

DH was very upset with many things on our Eurodam cruise in October.

I'm sorry to hear of your health problems. Wish you the very best.

I hope whether you take that next cruise or not, you are enjoying and thankful for the many blessings we all have. I for one am thankful to be able to afford to cruise periodically, even on HAL [emoji846]

Have a very Happy New Year!

Oh well -- only one more cruise to do on HAL.

Sounds like you're serving a sentence. Surely you're not being forced to endure another cruise, are you? I mean, it's a voluntary thing, right?

Wow, some folks lives must be awesome if they can complain about HMC.

It's all a question of what you are used to.

 

We like our barbeque and we like yours. Have spent plenty of time eating both and they are all good. :) IMO

 

How good are you at steamed lobsters and clams? :D

 

 

 

I wouldn't know which end of a lobster means business! But I know they are mighty fine eatin'

Preach on, brother!

Y'all Yankees are sure funny. I'm from the South, and that stuff on the ships ain't no barbecue no how. Come down South and we'll show you some real barbecue! [emoji3]

Happy New Year, y'all!

Are you using Chrome by Google ? If so try another browser . Chrome doesn't interpret some of the current web coding standards properly.

Do you have any evidence for that claim? I'm a professional web developer and use Chrome almost exclusively. I am not aware of any standards compliance issues. All modern browsers are very highly standards compliant.