riverotter

On 12/13/2022 at 9:19 AM, chengkp75 said:

 

Thank you so much for this rundown of covid transmission on cruise ships.  I wish you were working for the agencies that are supposed to educate us on ventilation in other spaces.  That was superb!

On 5/21/2022 at 1:16 PM, islandwoman said:

DH and I are booked on a Princess cruise out of Southampton followed by a Viking River cruise out of Budapest this coming fall.  These will be our first cruises since 2019.  I hear that some cruisers who are vaccinated and boosted are getting sick, even though their ships require vaccines and testing.  How do we avoid catching COVID on a cruise? 

Omicron has changed all the rules of infection.  It's now as infectious as measles, and I'm sure you remember how infectious that was.  Indoors you can get infected simply from walking by somebody.  You can even get infected from someone who walked by an hour ago indoors.  You can get infected in an empty elevator from a previous passenger.  You can get infected outside, but not as easily.  Surgical masks are no longer protective of covid.  You will need an N95 or KN95.

And you are very on point to be afraid.  Studies just came out that show every one of us, old and young, even asymptomatic have a 60% higher risk of stroke or heart attack after covid for at least a year.  And I think we know most of the people who cruise are not starting from zero risk from either of those diseases.

Still, I think you could cruise safely.  There is an elastomeric mask now out, that kind with the big pink circles that make you look like an insect, but they have recently made one the same size as a regular mask that looks normal, but it will protect you even better than an N95.  It's called a GVS P100.  So you could wear that any time you are inside. 

But you are not going to be able to eat in any restaurant or drink inside at all.  Many, many people are getting covid from dining room and restaurant from eating without their mask.   You will have to wear the mask, get the food at the buffet and go in your room or outside, not close to other people or else get room service.  You will also need to at least get a balcony and when you go in your room wear the mask until the room is aired out in case your steward is sick.

Personally I'm too at risk to try it after struggling for two years with long covid.  All I can do is live vicariously through everyone else on cruise critic.

I'm not too surprised that RC is suspending cruises if what I just read on another thread is true.  Someone who was on Oasis for New Years had their boyfriend test positive with symptoms.  He was quarantined, but they went according to new guidelines, told him he only had to be in quarantine on the ship five days and day six he was free to rejoin, no special masking requirements.  Then, according to this poster, they let him out in three days, no questions about symptoms and no testing.  

We all know the five days is not based on health but on the need to keep our hospitals staffed, and the guidance is five days and then mask for five days.  So, yeah, no surprise if they are releasing after a few days that the ships are going to be overrun with Covid.  

6 hours ago, SLSD said:

riverotter, would you be so kind as to give us a link to the article about Pfizer vaccines that you read?  I'm vaccinated with Pfizer, my husband with Moderna.  I AM considering switching over to Moderna through boosters (if there are additional boosters) at some point--if possible.  People have been told that mixing and matching is acceptable.  

Here is a link to the article.  I hope it is reputable.  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/28/covid-vaccinated-likely-unjabbed-infect-cohabiters-study-suggests

I have been following these threads very closely and can't say I'd be willing to do it.  The latest flies in the ointment are the fact that insurance doesn't seem to pay for if you are a close contact forced to quarantine off the ship but you are negative.  Plus it often takes three or four weeks to test negative.  That's such a long time to be stuck in a room.

Fly in ointment number two is the understanding from what looks like a solid article today saying that those of us who are vaxxed with Pfizer will infect spread Covid as easy as unvaccinated folks in a close family like setting which seems to resemble cruising since we somehow manage to create an extended family by the time we get off.  With the definition of "mild" meaning just not in the hospital I can't see taking the chance of a breakthrough.

And we are seeing with the Amadeus river cruise with 80 positives and that other cruise where on Facebook passengers were able to track an even larger amount of positives that no ship would ever need to count since they didn't have symptoms until they got home.  Both of these situations took place in fully booked situations.  But I don't see these half empty cruises sustaining the industry for long.  

I'm going to keep hoping and dreaming, but at this point I can't see it.  Of course I'm a homebody, so I haven't suffered as some have over the isolation.

8 hours ago, brittany12 said:

There is at least one travel insurance company that offers an optional feature that provides some reimbursement for quarantining. It also offers CFAR and interruption for any reason components. Not cheap though, and both only at 75%. Depends if one wants maximum risk protection. Time sensitive to 14 days and 21 days after first payment for trip made. I'm not sure I can mention the company .

This is good news.  I'm also concerned because I'm now reading that 30 to 40% of people will still test positive at three weeks.  If we aren't allowed to fly out of a country until we are negative, how can we afford the hotel stay once we are released from quarantine.   I can't imagine any insurance will cover that.  It's all very confusing.  Thanks all of you for doing so much research on this and helping all of us!

Now that we know that some countries insist that Covid-positive passengers and their close contacts be removed from the ship for quarantine, has anyone confirmed whether travel insurance will cover hotel and flight for those who test negative but must quarantine off the ship?

On 9/23/2021 at 2:34 PM, rbslos18 said:

1) Everyone on the ship is vaccinated

2) Daily PCR tests onboard--ships have an onboard lab

3) Pre-cruise COVID test

4) Outstanding sanitation onboard

5) Only allowing ship excursions in areas where COVID is an issue (controversial for some)

6) Everyone wears a contact tracing pendant

It is very impressive. When I shared with my concerned kids I was going on a cruise they had to acknowledge the ship is safer than any place I go in town.

 

The only thing Viking can't control and which may have caused some of the cases is people letting their guard down at the airport or on the plane. Most cases emerge the 3rd or 4th day of the cruise. 

This is such a good list, and would be exactly what I would hold as a standard if I decided to cruise.  Thanks!

What wonderful news.  Could someone who may be familiar with Viking's very protocols be able to sum up what they believe might be the combination that gives these good results?  Viking is pricey for me, but with a continued safety record I might be willing.

1 hour ago, sanger727 said:

As far as being held ‘against your will’ during quarantine. You certainly can be. I’m pretty sure you would be violating some law if you were to get on an airplane and fly home immediately following a positive test. One of my co-workers who had Covid did tell us that the police drove by his house every day snd had him, then called him and had him wave from the window, so they could be sure he was home. Not sure what the penalty would be if you missed the check in. Have seen reports of people violating quarantines in hawaii that were hit with heavy fines and possible jail time.

Yes, on Hawaii we would have the national guard, in full uniform, come to each person's residence every day at a different time, and we definitely faced arrest and a hefty fine if we weren't there.  It worked really well, though, for a while we had almost no Covid island-wide.

3 hours ago, zekekelso said:

I think it depends upon what you compare it to. Staying home at avoiding contact with people is safer than cruising. But if I’m going to go out shopping or to a restaurant or to a show, I personally still think ships are safer. 

The real question may be how to distinguish a safe ship from an unsafe ship now that we know even vaccinated and tested ships can be super spreaders.  

I think the first question we'd need to examine is why did this happen.  We can say that clearly ship protocols were not adhered to. But it seems to me we won't be able to determine this from the latest sailing since previous sailings had well-enforced protocols.  So how does one approach that as a passenger who realizes too late that they are stuck on an unsafe ship? 

Are we all too afraid to go to a crew member when we see someone struggling to breathe or coughing excessively more than allergies or asthma?  And if that crew member gives us a cold shoulder do we demand the next up the chain until someone does something? 

Another question is can we trust the captain or those in charge.  We know that cruise lines are corporations and as in the case of the captain that took a ship into a deadly hurricane, sometimes financial loss can come before human lives no matter how dedicated our captain may be.  We have now seen Carnival not admitting to an outbreak until the UK news broke the story.  We see that MSC has not admitted to its outbreak and instead says the reason they upped their protocols was because of news from land, not from their ship.  So that's another set of odds we would need to take into the equation.

Then there are the passengers who are not willing to abide by ship protocols, some of who have brazenly spoken up on this forum.  They would ignore one person, so would we need to try to get a group of fellow passengers together to enforce minor transgressions?  And should it even be the crew's job to confront the many disobedient passengers that will be on every ship?  

Then we have passengers who although sick are not about to turn themselves in for testing.  We know, according to the news, family members of the man who died who had Covid symptoms themselves but decided it wasn't Covid and didn't get tested.  How do we go about taking into account human nature in the form of passengers who aren't willing to ruin a multi-thousand dollar adventure by admitting to illness?

I understand that several of these problems would have to occur simultaneously before we get the perfect storm that leads to outbreak, but I'm not at this point able to justify taking on all of these potential dangers simply to satisfy my admitted addiction to cruising.

23 minutes ago, hamrag said:

 

How many threads is required to discuss this topic??

By your response it doesn't sound like this subject is anything you feel people should be concerned about.  So perhaps that's my answer.  This turn of events isn't something the average cruiser feels should concern them in making decisions.  Just life as usual, nothing to discuss here.  

I was just starting to feel like maybe those who are cruising were correct, that cruising would be one of the more safe environments to be in.  Now I've read about the Virtuosa outbreak.  Several people have tried to count the amount of people chatting about it on twitter and facebook and it's looking like maybe 100 guests have publicly reported testing positive from that sailing and the one before.  I am very surprised that this is the only thread about it on CC since that's where I get my information on these important decisions.  Could this be something that avid cruisers don't want to look at or are we really all that complacent about the illness?  As someone at risk because of age and the fact that we're not yet sure how long the vaccines last with delta I'm now getting concerned.  I would very much like to hear others' take on this situation.

2 hours ago, SwimmingDragon said:

May I ask where you got that information from? That's like super specific.  Eye opening, but not surprising from the color codes.

A woman who is on the Encore now reported it I think in her roll call.  I assume she was talking to a crew member in the know, but of course we all have to be mindful that things get lost in translation, or code red might just be a term the crew is using colloquially, not an actual classification.

On 8/26/2021 at 9:54 AM, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

Good point. That has not been confirmed in terms of policy, but it has been reported from multiple reviews here that crew is not allowed to disembark the Encore at all.

And to complicate things even further, apparently the crew also have their own color system in some cases.  Someone on the Encore just reported that they had one passenger test positive, and that family got moved off the ship but the bridge crew are now in something called code red which means they are in some sort of lockdown and are wearing N95 masks and can’t meet with passengers or any other crew members.  Apparently it's just to make sure critical crew stay healthy.  

3 hours ago, bdever said:

THANK YOU 🙏🏻 nailed it! 
I would just like to point out the other elephant in the quarantine room - they agreed to Tesla car service knowing she was positive!!!! If the President of the Tesla car service is offering to pick me up knowing I’m positive AND my car is parked within walking distance of the port like they stated why in the world would I allow the President to come get me even if he knew I was positive and offered?????

Not to mention the person at Tesla was hanging out with them without a mask, showing them the car without a care in the world.

But even Vlogger Josh said he had been feeling pretty bad with symptoms he just thought were a sinus infection, and although he boasted he was wearing his mask, admitted he went to the formal dinner before he decided to test.  He may have tested negatively, thank God, but still I wouldn't want to be at a formal dinner in an enclosed space with no mask in sight while sick people are at a table near me or even not near me if the AC was blowing my way.  

5 hours ago, bdever said:

Prior to being tested but experiencing symptoms & contagious, which doesn’t equate to quarantine. If someone is avoiding a test for risk of being taken off at port but is experiencing symptoms then one should at least adhere to proper quarantine procedures and not venture out of their cabin at minimum. 

Unfortunately in the latest vlog we find  the vaccinated husband is now infected as well.  

One person, it looks like today, the 26th, on Millennium at Juneau has tested positive and taken off the ship.  

https://www.alaskapublic.org/2021/07/26/it-happened-someone-on-a-large-cruise-ship-in-juneau-has-tested-positive-for-covid-19/

5 hours ago, Newleno said:

hmm I am beginning to think the usa has got this all wrong, that we do need to wear masks and gloves when we need to go out.  Not for a false sense of security but to limit exposure to the virus and if we unknowingly have the virus masks will help not to spread it to others.  So far prelim information indicate the primary way it is spread is through cough/sneeze.  I am starting to think from the beginning a massive glove/mask production drive should have been started along with the travel bans.  In Japan, South Korea and China masks are being worn it appears to be helping.

These articles are slightly misleading although factually correct.  The RNA would not be infectious although it would be present.  The studies that recently told us that three days for hard surfaces and a little less for soft surfaces are accurate and can for the most part be relied on.

Yes, the USA has it all wrong about masks, but this lie may have been the only way to keep people from hoarding.  So maybe we can forgive them.  You will notice the wording in all statements regarding masks in US.  They say that there is very little to prove it helps.  That's because formal studies can't be done because humans would have to be experimented on.  But plenty of informal studies have shown that simple paper surgical masks can keep out 60% of Coronavirus sized particles.  So, yes, if everyone wore a simple paper surgical mask outdoors, we could limit spread by 60%.  Articles are, however, correct that people won't use them correctly.  They can only be reused if they get a few days of quarantine between uses, and you can't take them off to eat and drink if you are around people.  You can't touch them on the outside either.  So most people just can't be that careful.  

I will tell you that I live in a USA hotspot, and most people are now wearing masks despite the stigma. Most of us wear gloves and masks when we go outside.  Even cotton provides about 30% protection for coronavirus.  There are plenty of online homemade mask videos that can be made with a needle and thread that show you how to do the three-layer technique.  Still, they must be quarantined between uses and not touched, but yes, masks are now essential in some areas and gloves are also helpful.

12 minutes ago, Emdee said:

If that is so why do doctors wear them?

I believe that the only way to stop people from ordering them is to tell them they don't work.  Our doctors do need them.  However, the testing shows that the common thin paper masks can stop 60% of Coronavirus, according to easily-available studies.  Two of these will give you a little more protection.  Using these does not deprive doctors of the N95 masks.  

When we generally apply these numbers we can predict that if everyone wore a paper mask in public we could reduce spread by 60 percent, generally speaking.  I feel that although the protection isn't perfect, it could help the epidemic greatly.  Maybe my math is off or I suppose there could be a shortage of paper masks.  But I think it would be beneficial for preventing spread if everyone wore them as they do in many countries.

For myself,  I have done a little research and if you have a few N95s from the hardware store lying around, you could use a light paper mask over it when you go out in public carefully removed and discarded before entering your home, which will keep the outside of the N95 mask clean which allows it to be reused.  I have a few so I would rotate them to be sure.  If I was on a long airplane ride, I would probably use a construction N95, a Vogmask or the one from Turkey with a paper mask over it.  Then a straw could be used if you pull the paper mask down half an inch to pinch around a straw which should allow you to drink an Ensure or Boost for hydration and nutrients.  Not easy or perfect but doable.

4 hours ago, Travelcat2 said:

 

The problem that I have with these reports is that they claim that they do not prevent contracting the virus.  If this is true, why do medical professionals need useless masks to treat patients?

 

The reason that we have the approved masks is for when we sail during the winter.  We have become sick several times after being near people coughing and sneezing on buses, in airports and planes.  So, we began using wipes in airplanes about 4 years ago and the masks (although we have not used them yet) are always with us on trips.  It is difficult to not touch your nose, or mouth and the masks will help prevent that (along with 3M protective glasses that insure that you don't touch your eyes.). And, since I believe that they prevent at least some of the virus, I will continue use them.

 

Here is a wonderful and very scientific article about masks.  The charts from the testing are very useful.  It has been very helpful for me to calm my worries as we always have a few N95s around the house for construction projects.

https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/coronavirus-pollution-masks-n95-surgical-mask/