In the good old days

[Ethel5]

I think you, DeepWaterMariner, and Shogun are correct. The passengers are changing. The excess capacity that exists in cruising, combined with highly competitive markets such as the Caribbean, creates a McDonald's style loss-leader pricing model. Initial fares are low (like the price of a hamgurger at McD's) and profit is expected to come from secondary revenue streams (the over-priced fries and cokes).

 

What is dangerous is making a connection between lower-cost cruising and lower standards of social behavior. You'll get flamed unmercifully for that. The real issue, I think, is that our society permits us to function without having to deal with anyone face-to-face. We use computers to communicate, we use the phone or cell phone even when speaking to someone whose office is just a few steps away, we're insulated from others by the windscreens on our car, etc. Social skills just aren't as valued as they used to be. I honestly believe we get judged more on how politically correct we are than anything else. Then there is the added complication that people just have short attention spans. I'm wondering how many people trying to read this paragraph have skimmed it because their eyes starting glazing over in the third sentence.

 

 

I have to agree-and I did read it all the way through! :)

[Pam in CA]

I think you, DeepWaterMariner, and Shogun are correct. The passengers are changing. The excess capacity that exists in cruising, combined with highly competitive markets such as the Caribbean, creates a McDonald's style loss-leader pricing model. Initial fares are low (like the price of a hamgurger at McD's) and profit is expected to come from secondary revenue streams (the over-priced fries and cokes).

 

What is dangerous is making a connection between lower-cost cruising and lower standards of social behavior. You'll get flamed unmercifully for that. The real issue, I think, is that our society permits us to function without having to deal with anyone face-to-face. We use computers to communicate, we use the phone or cell phone even when speaking to someone whose office is just a few steps away, we're insulated from others by the windscreens on our car, etc. Social skills just aren't as valued as they used to be. I honestly believe we get judged more on how politically correct we are than anything else. Then there is the added complication that people just have short attention spans. I'm wondering how many people trying to read this paragraph have skimmed it because their eyes starting glazing over in the third sentence.

You're absolutely right. Society in general is changing and what was unacceptable behavior and selfishness (the "me" generation) is becoming the norm. Dress codes, etc. don't become as important as long as you respect yourself and the others around you.

[japester]

As always, spongerob, you hit the nail on the head (at least, I think you did....I kind of skimmed after the first few sentences.....) :p

 

The friction on ships is caused by the double whammy of lowered social skills/respect for others and a more diverse (meaning: more of us "peasants" are cruising now, heh!) pax complement trying to mingle. Like another poster said, you used to be able to predict what your tablemates would be like---now it's a total toss-up.

 

And whether it's PC or not, when you let the lower-income people in, standards of behavior always drop. It's because rules and formalities aren't as important to somebody who has to count their pennies--their priorities are different. Doesn't mean those folks are bad people (and I am definitely among the poorest church mice on CC!), just means they don't value what more traditional cruisers do.

 

As for prices, they have definitely come down. I've been cruising about 20 years, and when I lived in Florida in the 80's, cabins were easily 2-3x more expensive than today. And they weren't that much more inclusive. When you also factor in inflation, it's remarkable how inexpensive cruising has become.

 

Jape

[cruiseapril]

Someone can be as "poor as a churchmouse" and still have good manners. Things do change, but good manners are still respected in general. As a teacher, I see good manners as consideration for others and etiquette as a way of being mannerly- kind of the icing on the cake.

 

I think consideration for others comes from our upbringing, not how much $ we have. And, on the whole, I think most people are considerate- or wanrt to be. A problem is that negative stuff gets so much attention. If you have a ship of 2,000 folks and 20 are rude- the rude ones get talked about! Hey, what about the other considerate passengers?

[Fuzzzy]

Someone can be as "poor as a churchmouse" and still have good manners. Things do change, but good manners are still respected in general. I see good manners as consideration for others and etiquette as a way of being mannerly

I agree 100%;)

[spongerob]

And whether it's PC or not, when you let the lower-income people in, standards of behavior always drop. It's because rules and formalities aren't as important to somebody who has to count their pennies--their priorities are different.

On this point I'm going to disagree. I can recall many instances where those who are used to privilege have been extraordinarily rude - they're used to getting their way because of their perceived status, and use that status as a means to get around formalities that most of us accept. We see on these boards, it is visible during cruises, and it's certainly apparent when things aren't going well. I can honestly say, the very worst behavior I've seen while cruising has come from those who clearly could afford to sail on any line, at any time, regardless of cost. The people who maybe are a bit beyond their financial means on a cruise might occasionally do things that are tacky, but it takes wealth to be truly mean to others.

[Dale]

And whether it's PC or not, when you let the lower-income people in, standards of behavior always drop. Jape

My prayers each night are that I will never be on the the same cruise with you.

[japester]

My prayers each night are that I will never be on the the same cruise with you.

 

What a ridiculous thing to pray for, Dale. :rolleyes: Cut back on the melodrama, someone is simply disagreeing with you.

 

I agree completely, though, that a few bad eggs get all the attention. And I'll also agree that the priviledged can be truly loathesome. I worked as a waiter for many years and also found that my co-workers (mostly single mothers and undeducated males) could often be the most generous and kind-hearted people you've ever met. If they only had two pennies, they'd give you one if they thought you needed it.

 

But I've never subscribed to the PC-concept that if you can find one example to the contrary, it completely discounts the average experience for a given situation. I've lived all over the US and abroad. Poor neighborhoods have higher crime and more violence (from the perspective of living there). Poor neighborhoods make for lousy tippers and more muggings after work (from the perspective of working there). And one big corporation I worked for also had a class distinction among our clientele, although it wasn't necessarily monetarily based. Anyway, when we opened the floodgates to the folks lower on the totem poles, we suddenly had a raft of problems (dishonesty, unpaid bills, false complaints, outright fraud, etc) that we never had to any appreciable degree before.

 

That's okay. I expect a bunch of folks with rose-colored glasses to get mad at me and ignore the facts, but I've found its much better to embrace our differences, get to know them, and then find ways to overcome them. My employer was forced to do this or go out of business. If we had ignored our new problems by not admitting that cultural, economic and social backgrounds do make a difference in behavior, we wouldn't have lasted more than a year or two.

 

Jape

[Shogun]

Hi Folks,,

 

Reading some of the posts, I am getting more worried about you lot out there,

 

I like to cruise for a number of reasons, one of which is to meet new people and hear other peoples views.

 

OK, I do not want to be over run with drunking teens etc, loud mouthed yobs etc etc.

 

Now I have my views on things which some people agree with and others do not.

 

Take our old friend smoking, I think people if they want should be allowed to smoke, but only were it affects no other people. So smoking indoors should be banned like it is in Scotland and a few other places.

 

Now some people will agree with this others will not, but I am happy to talk about it and hear other views.

 

What I am getting from the posts here is that we are not willing to be understanding of others, that we want our own space and we will put up a wall around us to get it, what worries me more is the feeling that if people do not agree with the norm then they should be forced to comply.

 

As the price of cruising comes down people who will have never thought about cruising will try it, the problem as I see it is who tells them what is expected of them on a cruise ship be it dress code etc.

 

Many of us will have been on a cruise with our parents, or with others that have cruised before.

 

My very first cruise as an adult, we were part of a large table half were on week one the other half on week two of a two week cruise programme the result was we were told about what ships life was like and how things were done, in our second week we passed this on to the new folk at our table and on it went.

 

Now I do not like folk on formal nights that do not dress for the evening, now I quite often do not go to the formal dinner with black tie etc but may well go to the buffet, but if I am going to the casino latter I will still wear a shirt and tie, to see folk in t shirts I think is wrong but who is going to tell them that they are not getting into the casino.

 

yours Shogun

[Ethel5]

Just this morning the "Today" show had a segment on how Americans are getting more aggressive and ruder. Cell phone users in general were thought to be the biggest offenders. People are said to be under a lot more stress and manners are slipping. This trend sees all socio-economic layers of society becoming more aggressive and more "me" oriented. This will be a week long series.

[spongerob]

Donna, it's not just Americans. It's more of a generational thing in my opinion.

[Ethel5]

Donna, it's not just Americans. It's more of a generational thing in my opinion.

 

I have to agree with that too. In my line of work I see parents going nuts if their child isnt' granted every wish! I was told "my child is going to be DEVASTATED if ......... so I toold a look at the kid's age-she was 2. How is a 2 year old going to be devastated by anything!

[Shogun]

Hi Donna,

 

There was a bit on the news in the UK about a 5 year child that was unable to go with her mates to one school so she was sent to another , she was ment to have depression, I thought growing up ment you had to learn that you do not get everthing in life you want.

 

Do you think I could get signed of work with depression if I do not win at the casino.

 

yours Shogun

[DeepWaterMariner]

I'd lay the changes we've witnesses in cruise behavior (dress, interests, etc.) to be largely cultural and generational. Economic status plays a minor part if any. To bring an element of history to bear, there have always been lower wage earners on cruises, or at least since I've been cruising which goes back to the late 1960's. I was one of them and most of the people we dinned with or met were of the same class. And this was on Holland American, North German Lloyd, and other not so shabby lines. Even back in the transatlantic hayday of the 1950's there was "tourist class" for the prolitariate. We all behaved quite acceptably. A big difference now is that the average age of cruisers is much lower than it was back when I started cruising, which means different dress, interests, and behavior...not necessarily bad but different than the older passenger of yore. On a recent cruise we dinned with a lawyer who wore flip flops to dinner every night...well off but with poor taste.

[bdjam]

Hi Spongerob,

 

On another forum they were talking about people complaining about other people while on a cruise below are a few things I have seen on my past cruises which I knew would get others complaining,

 

...

 

then on my last cruise the gay couple oiling themselves and kissing, and by the way there small swim wear was trying to keep all there bits in a very happy couple.

Wait a minute. Is it being inferred that this is a lowering of standards? If that’s the case, what about the straight couples doing the same thing? I’ve seen some straight men and women with their bits falling out around the pool as well – and in the case of topless women, it’s intentional. Why is it that when it’s two men there’s a lowering of standards?

 

I think ‘rob is right – today you don’t need to interact with anyone to function in this world. You can do it all from your computer at home. You can block out the rest of the world with cell phones, iPods and any number of other contraptions (and I include MUTS in that list). Interacting with others isn’t the same as it used to be and so how we perceive each other – or better, how we would like to be perceived by others – is no longer as important.

 

My favorite is always the complaints about how the cruise experience isn’t at the same standard it used to be – and in the next breath the complainer refuses to even think about following guidelines about dress and decorum while on board because it is their vacation and they can do what they want...

[Shogun]

Hi Bdjam,

 

The quote comes from a list of things, breast feeding, topless girls etc, from another forum, the point I was making had two points first these things had got others complaining and 2nd you did not see these things either on cruise ships or anywhere years ago. My own view which some will not agree with is simple you can do what you want on a cruise ship so long as it is permitted by the cruise line. That way if you do not like certain things then do not pick a cruise line that allows those things you do not like.

 

There was no link to lowering of standards.

 

Or officers sitting at your table for dinner.

 

 

yours Shogun

[TNTLAMB]

BDJAM: Straight guys are offended by any guy "speedo-ing" himself publicly whether that guy is straight or not and most folks are put of by blatant public displays of sexuality by any couple. So yes it is a lowering of standards or at very least - decorum.

 

In all fairness reference was made to the topless female as well. While I may certainly enjoy a peek when it is out of place, it is out of place and a lowering of standards as well.

 

Class is class and has nothing to do with means. Some got it and sadly too many don't.

 

Unfortunately cruising while once an exercise in ambiance and decorum an a nice change for many of us, because of the lowering of standards has become an inexpensive all-inclusive vacation experience and that is not likely to change anytime soon..

[bdjam]

BDJAM: Straight guys are offended by any guy "speedo-ing" himself publicly whether that guy is straight or not and most folks are put of by blatant public displays of sexuality by any couple. So yes it is a lowering of standards or at very least - decorum.

So because straight guys are offended by "speedo-ing" - whatever that means - people shouldn't be allowed to do it? I'm not arguing a point of decorum - my point is that if it's wrong for gay people, it's wrong for straight people too - no matter what straight guys think. I seriously doubt that the same statement would be made about a woman and man in the same situation - blatant public display or not.

In all fairness reference was made to the topless female as well. While I may certainly enjoy a peek when it is out of place, it is out of place and a lowering of standards as well.

Well this can get into the whole “Americans are too puritanical” argument – I’m not sure how the U.S. got to the point where the human body is considered something to be hidden, but it’s a darn shame.

Unfortunately cruising while once an exercise in ambiance and decorum an a nice change for many of us, because of the lowering of standards has become an inexpensive all-inclusive vacation experience and that is not likely to change anytime soon..

I’m not sure I follow the thought here, but it sounds like you feel that since cruising is inexpensive, the atmosphere of luxury, ambience, decorum and pampering that the cruise lines use to sell cruises means nothing? Or did you mean something else? You are right in the statement that things aren’t going to change soon – unfortunately cruise lines are the same as many corporations – they are willing to sacrifice quality for financial gain. Those in charge at Carnival Corporation are most interested in making sure the stockholders are happy so they can claim their bonuses - when in fact if they concentrated more on quality, those short term financial gains might become long term ones.

[jennew]

 

And whether it's PC or not, when you let the lower-income people in, standards of behavior always drop. It's because rules and formalities aren't as important to somebody who has to count their pennies--their priorities are different. Doesn't mean those folks are bad people (and I am definitely among the poorest church mice on CC!), just means they don't value what more traditional cruisers do.

 

Jape

 

I will strongly object to this statement. I was raised on welfare by a mother who DEMANDED excellent manners and behavior. Until just a few years ago I was also among the "low income" in our society. My children (and myself) have excellent manners and their "standards of behavior" are very high. I ought to know, I set them.

[jennew]

If we had ignored our new problems by not admitting that cultural, economic and social backgrounds do make a difference in behavior, we wouldn't have lasted more than a year or two.

 

Jape

 

are you familiar with the term "stereotype"?

[coiran]

Originally Posted by japester

And whether it's PC or not, when you let the lower-income people in, standards of behavior always drop. It's because rules and formalities aren't as important to somebody who has to count their pennies--their priorities are different. Doesn't mean those folks are bad people (and I am definitely among the poorest church mice on CC!), just means they don't value what more traditional cruisers do.

 

Jape

I hope this does not start a status war, but I disagree. I think it is quite the contrary. It is some of the wealthy people (not necessarily earned wealth) that often tend to think that rules do not apply to them. They also tend to be more "pushy" and arrogant.

Ron

[cruiseapril]

This is an interesting thread.

 

On the subject of decorum and partial nudity- on a cruise ship there is limited space, so it becomes more important to make others feel comfortable rather than uncomfortable, IMHO. There's a time and a place for "intimate oiling", verdad?

[regnig]

I'm not going to get into this fray as I think it has veered off course a bit. But I would like to quote someone much smarter than I (author unknown) -

 

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

[TNTLAMB]

So because straight guys are offended by "speedo-ing" - whatever that means - people shouldn't be allowed to do it? I'm not arguing a point of decorum - my point is that if it's wrong for gay people, it's wrong for straight people too - no matter what straight guys think. I seriously doubt that the same statement would be made about a woman and man in the same situation - blatant public display or not....but it sounds like you feel that since cruising is inexpensive, the atmosphere of luxury, ambience, decorum and pampering that the cruise lines use to sell cruises means nothing....

 

The same standards apply to staight and gay IMHO, and on that we agree, If an individual is offended by overt sexual behavior by gays then that same person should be equally offended by that behavior by straight couples. That statement should be made of any couple in the same situation, if it is to be made at all. I do feel that the atmosphere of ambience, decorum, and pampering on a cruise which is certainly what I and I suspect you are looking for on a cruise is still present, the fact that cruising has for many become an inexpensive alternative to the all-inclusive resorts, is what has resulted in much of the "boorish" behavior we have come to see on many cruises, especially the mega ships. I still look forward to the old time cruise experience and have been able thus far to ignore or not at least have not had effect me those folks looking for something different. It is becoming more difficult however. There seems to be more folks every cruise whose "me centered" behavior without regards to how it effects others. A great deal of the "community" feeling we used to get on a cruise seems to have left. The good thing is we can all cruise more often!! Thanks to the active roll calls on these boards, we are also able to much more quickly connect with folks who are looking forward to similar experiences.

[bdjam]

are you familiar with the term "stereotype"?

Some of us are more familiar with the term than others, right? :rolleyes:

 

The facts are – behavior on board cruise ships has degraded over the years as evidenced by assaults, missing persons and people being put off in port because they can’t act civilized. Coincidentally, there are larger ships sailing which allows the cruise lines to sell at mass market prices. Coincidentally, there are people boarding cruise ships who have never been able to afford it before and who don’t necessarily take to the “fine resort” atmosphere that most cruise lines convey through their advertising.

 

So what do you attribute the degrading of behavior to?

The good thing is we can all cruise more often!!

Right – but we won’t be cruising more often if it becomes a vacation at the level of a trip to a theme park or campground. And the cruise lines – lost in their short term bottom line – don’t seem to understand this. Part of the attraction to cruising is the uniqueness of the vacation - that is slipping away.