Dog on Constellation

[FinelyCruising]

and yet people aren't clamoring about the need to take all shellfish off the menu!

 

The point is many people can self manage medical condtions that affect them and know what to look out for and what to do to stay safe. Some people are unable to self manage and need assistance in other ways.

 

In specific regard to service animals, we know they are used to guide the blind. Yet I wonder how comfortable a blind person would be unaccompanied on a cruise ship and only with the service dog, who would be in an environment that it was not used to.

 

So similarly, I suggest this woman, who sounds like she was delightful, was fairly capable of self managing herself, and in fact proved she was. My limited and sceptical view of her need for a service animal is based on her own behaviour. If the suggestion that she be debilitated to make it OK for her to bring the dog, her flamboyant actions speak otherwise.

 

Anyway...Happy Holiday....I am off to get the rest of the weekend plans in order!

[Drew B]

So similarly, I suggest this woman, who sounds like she was delightful, was fairly capable of self managing herself, and in fact proved she was. My limited and sceptical view of her need for a service animal is based on her own behaviour. If the suggestion that she be debilitated to make it OK for her to bring the dog, her flamboyant actions speak otherwise.

 

Perhaps the reason she was so capable of managing herself was due to the therapeutic presence of her dog... I don't know the degree of her "disability" -- none of us do. Whatever it was, it was enough to satisfy those who make the decisions as to whether or not she could bring the dog aboard. Beyond that, I fail to see how it is any of anybody else's business...

 

Happy holidays to you, too! I hope they are everything you could wish for.

[clopaw]

 

In specific regard to service animals, we know they are used to guide the blind. Yet I wonder how comfortable a blind person would be unaccompanied on a cruise ship and only with the service dog, who would be in an environment that it was not used to.

 

 

 

One of the many factors that led my husband to decide to get a guide dog was the cruise where I was severely seasick and he was stuck in an inside room with me until I was well enough to go somewhere. He and his dog can and do make their way around a ship on their own just fine. My husband may need to stop and ask directions, especially early in a cruise, but so do sighted people. It may interest you to know that the dog remembers which room on a long corridor of identical doors is ours.

[woodofpine]

I think it's cool that X allows Dogs!

 

I hadn't reviewed the entire thread but looking it over more, if its a service animal or not, fine - X allows dogs, so do the paperwork and YOU GO GIRL!! (er b*tch, er whatever).

 

But if the woman was given an aweful time by X pax about her dog it was probably because she didn't have it in proper attire on formal night...

 

After all compare the congeniality of the X forum to the rest... surprised?

[FinelyCruising]

One of the many factors that led my husband to decide to get a guide dog was the cruise where I was severely seasick and he was stuck in an inside room with me until I was well enough to go somewhere. He and his dog can and do make their way around a ship on their own just fine. My husband may need to stop and ask directions, especially early in a cruise, but so do sighted people. It may interest you to know that the dog remembers which room on a long corridor of identical doors is ours.

 

Thank you for your response. I imagine part of the success of the dog is the sense of scent, and I find these animals truly amazing in their capabilites and resolve.

 

Happy Holidays!

[FinelyCruising]

Perhaps the reason she was so capable of managing herself was due to the therapeutic presence of her dog... I don't know the degree of her "disability" -- none of us do. Whatever it was, it was enough to satisfy those who make the decisions as to whether or not she could bring the dog aboard. Beyond that, I fail to see how it is any of anybody else's business...

 

Happy holidays to you, too! I hope they are everything you could wish for.

 

I was not there, I am glad I was not to tell you the truth. If I were there and saw this dog go to the bathroom without abandon or control, and I add I doubt the one post about the deck chair and towel, it would be my business. Now, in another direction, if I saw a service dog, in the context of a blind persons dog, which in my limted and narrow minded opinion is a working dog beyond compare, I'd cut slack like you have no idea.

 

Just me...and I have had dogs as pets for the past 30 years. :o

[wallygator]

I don't think anyone is arguing against service animals for those truly in the need but i believe there is a suspicion that some of this is phoney. Reminds me of being in Disney World a few years ago and seeing this one early 20s couple all week. One day she was in the wheelchair and the next he was and on, and on all week. They got to the front of all the lines all week, didn't look like anything was wrong with either one.

 

Seen that more times than I care to mention. I have no problem with people with genuine needs getting special consideration. But far too many times I’ve parked in the last parking spot only to see a car pull into a handicap spot the driver and only person in the vehicle jumps out unencumbered and strolls on in. With a grin on their face. Either way thats the world we live in:) :cool:

[goodshipmarley]

I have had multiple sclerosis for 20 years and have a handicapped license plate. I usually get along just fine and people would never know I am sick. Unfortunately, I can go from walking just fine, to not being able to take another step in minutes. I never know when this can happen. I am sure people sometimes wonder why I use handicapped parking spots when they see me walking. I would gladly give my parking space to anyone who would like to deal with the problems of the disease. I have also done the same thing at Disney World. Sometimes I am fine and sometimes I am not. My sister also has MS but is confined to a wheel chair. She no longer can walk at all. :) She has a service dog, and I can hardly wait to tell her she can take her dog on a Celebrity Cruise

[Parrot Mom]

Since when are "service dogs" not allowed on cruise ships!!! I personally have never seen one on a ship,but isnt there something about the "Disability Act".. that allows them everywhere, it's against the law to refuse to allow one in.... Once I did see one in one f the famous delis in NYC..Therapy dogs I believe are not allowed in dining rooms. If I had a service dog and I was not allowed to bring the dog on a plane, restaurant,shop....We have brought and carried out little dog into several shops making sure we keep away from the food aREA..We had brought her into one local chain to try on dog t-shirts...customers got a kick out of it..

One of the funniest incidences is meeting a young lady who had her dog in a "dog stroller" so she could bring him into a well known store..

[MysteryMajic]

OK, I'm really looking forward to seeing a service horse on a cruise. I bet he would have a hard time at the tender ports!

 

Seriously, though, I did see a piece on TV about a miniature horse that was used as a service animal. He had little rubber non-slip boots to wear inside buildings. I wonder if his owner could get a life-jacket for him...

 

Lisa

 

Oh Lisa- ROLFMAO- I had such a mind's eye pic... but, I have to say that while I'm pretty confident in my abilities, I could never compete with a horse.:rolleyes:

[smeyer418]

Couple of points. The US Supreme Court in a case about a year ago against NCL found that the ADA applies to cruise ships. So all of you who think it doesn't apply are clearly wrong. Cruise companies are generally very accommodating to the handicap. The law requires "reasonable" accommodation. Sometimes accommodation is not possible or practical and is not required(Blind people sky diving for instance). The law also defines what a disability is. So a cruise line requesting from the person what the accommodation the person needs is not illegal. Since the federal definition of what a service dogs does requires it does something I personally doubt the a companion dog meets that definition but I am not sure about that. Sometimes a cruise line decides it just not worth the trouble to fight with someone of a relatively minor issue. Its also not illegal for an individual to ask what the handicap is. The question may be rude(although I don't think it is) but it surely is not illegal. The handicapped person is under no obligation to answer. People spend too much time watching other people.

Some people abuse handicap privileges especially in parking like using the handicap sticker when the handicapped person is not present or likely to be present but so do other permit parkers too- its a big problem in NY City, but the fact that there may be abusers doesn't make the requirement to reasonably accommodate handicap people wrong- just that the wrongdoers are rude small people- which they are.

 

here is a link to the Supreme Court Case

 

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&navby=case&vol=000&invol=03-1388

 

By the way this is a 5-4 decision....a very narrow one but it does find that the ADA does apply to Cruise ships...to what extent the Cruise line must accommodate is left up to a case by case analysis.

[woodofpine]

Who needs a case cite these days when you can hyperlink!

 

So there you have it. ADA rules at sea! I agree that the anecdotal doesn't appear to support 'disability' and 'service' as the feds view it - critically speaking, but who cares! Dogs are mans' (and womans') best friend!

 

And all the traditionalists pining for the services of yesteryear should be thrilled! Dogs were historically allowed on ships in the "Golden Age" (with dog runs and all). Heck, maybe RCI will build a canine rock climbing wall for the St. Bernards! :D

[Drew B]

My "legalese" isn't very good, so I wasn't able to make too much sense out of that case. At first, since it was an NCL case, I guessed that it was one of the ships registered in the U.S. and sailing Hawaiian itineraries. In that case, it would clearly fall under the laws of the U.S. and the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court. However, they were talking about ships registered abroad and travelling from Houston (Galveston, I assume, as Houston is landlocked). My question is HOW is the Supreme Court able to assert jurisdiction here? A ship with foreign registration and travelling in international waters doesn't seem to be subject to American law... Is there any reason why NCL (or any other line) couldn't simply ignore the ruling if they wanted to?

 

Any lawyers or students of maritime law around here?

[Parrot Mom]

Oh Lisa- ROLFMAO- I had such a mind's eye pic... but, I have to say that while I'm pretty confident in my abilities, I could never compete with a horse.:rolleyes:

In our pet therapy group was a Mastiff puppy....150 pounds... can you see this dog as a guide.lol.. there are mini-horses but give me a break.. In all seriousness...people with guide or companion dogs are very conscientious about their dogs and when and where they leave "packages"and pick up after them.

[smeyer418]

My "legalese" isn't very good, so I wasn't able to make too much sense out of that case. At first, since it was an NCL case, I guessed that it was one of the ships registered in the U.S. and sailing Hawaiian itineraries. In that case, it would clearly fall under the laws of the U.S. and the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court. However, they were talking about ships registered abroad and travelling from Houston (Galveston, I assume, as Houston is landlocked). My question is HOW is the Supreme Court able to assert jurisdiction here? A ship with foreign registration and travelling in international waters doesn't seem to be subject to American law... Is there any reason why NCL (or any other line) couldn't simply ignore the ruling if they wanted to?

 

Any lawyers or students of maritime law around here?

 

yeah and have the ship seized when it enter a US Port to pay off a judgement. The ships at issue were registered in Bermuda(that is what its says in the lawsuit although I believe they are actually registered in the Bahamas). They could also prevent people from boarding in the US as a sanction if they wanted to. You can be sure that US Federal courts know how to get someone's attention to comply with its orders if it wants to.

 

Its true if the ships never enter US waters they could ignore US law but I don't think even if they could they would as the US could make the TA's buying and sending money to them illegal(its how the US gets banks to seize money as well)...and the publicitiy that they ignore US laws wouldn't help either.

 

BTW NCL has two brands, NCL which is its foreign flagged vessels and NCL-America for its US Flagged vessels a seperate corp although its own by the same parent corp. There is no doubt that NCL-America is subject to all US laws.

[Drew B]

yeah and have the ship seized when it enter a US Port to pay off a judgement. The ships at issue were registered in Bermuda(that is what its says in the lawsuit although I believe they are actually registered in the Bahamas). They could also prevent people from boarding in the US as a sanction if they wanted to. You can be sure that US Federal courts know how to get someone's attention to comply with its orders if it wants to.

 

Its true if the ships never enter US waters they could ignore US law but I don't think even if they could they would as the US could make the TA's buying and sending money to them illegal(its how the US gets banks to seize money as well)...and the publicitiy that they ignore US laws wouldn't help either.

 

BTW NCL has two brands, NCL which is its foreign flagged vessels and NCL-America for its US Flagged vessels a seperate corp although its own by the same parent corp. There is no doubt that NCL-America is subject to all US laws.

 

 

That's interesting. Why doesn't the Supreme Court impose other U.S. laws on them, then? Labor laws and minimum wage, in particular, would be HUGE... Could you imagine if a cruiseline had to pay overtime after 8 hours (and double time after 12 hours) to its cabin attendants and wait staff?

[FinelyCruising]

Everytime we seem to impose our rules on other countries we end up in conflict. :o

[moondoggie]

If you are the delightful lady with a cool DH who has a fabulous Service Dog named Hero, when are you guys cruising again? We'd love to be on his ship again! He was such a hit with everyone, especially dressing up for formal nights--the dog, I mean! We will be on Zenith Jan 19 for ten nights.

 

The dog lovers from Kansas

(former trainers of assistance dogs)

[Drew B]

In honor of this thread, I just made a donation to a charity called "Guide Dogs for the Blind".

 

 

 

(and, yes, I realize this woman was not blind...)

[Texas_Cruisers]

My "legalese" isn't very good, ...... However, they were talking about ships registered abroad and travelling from Houston (Galveston, I assume, as Houston is landlocked). Any lawyers or students of maritime law around here?

 

How about someone with a Map and a History Book.

 

Houston Texas although 50 miles inland from the Gulf of Mexico, is the home to the Port of Houston. http://www.portofhouston.com/geninfo/overview1.html

 

The Port of Houston

The Port of Houston is a 25-mile-long complex of diversified public and private facilities located just a few hours' sailing time from the Gulf of Mexico. The port is ranked first in the United States in foreign waterborne tonnage, second in the U.S. in total tonnage, and tenth in the world in total tonnage.

Just in case someone did not know. We also have a new Bayport Terminal that is being built that will add to the tonnage and size of the port.

And we keep growing every year........

Carl

[smeyer418]

That's interesting. Why doesn't the Supreme Court impose other U.S. laws on them, then? Labor laws and minimum wage, in particular, would be HUGE... Could you imagine if a cruiseline had to pay overtime after 8 hours (and double time after 12 hours) to its cabin attendants and wait staff?

 

Given the current Supreme Court you really expect them to impose this to help non US citiizen foreign crew? The issue before the Supreme Court was would they apply the ADA for American passengers. Lets get back to the point, all I said was that the ADA applies to foreign cruise ships with American passengers leaving or entering to the US. I can tell you already that Pension laws don't apply to foreign companies with in the US(ERISA excludes pension of primarily foreign companies and there is another Supreme Court Case on that), but any good lawyer will tell you that hypotheticals make lousy cases. You can say what you want but the USSC has spoken on the issue of the ADA and foreign flagged ships.

[dorisday]

I have suffered with severe depression for years, I have trouble coping with the usual mundane daily things when I am having a "bad day".

 

I have always found the unconditional love of my dog a huge comfort, when Im at my worst no person can ever fully understand how I feel.

 

Jake my three legged Cairn Terrier doesnt care, He loves me on my good days & just as much on my bad days, he never judges me & never tells me to "buck up & pull myself together".

 

Jake is the reason I get up in the morning, if I could cruise with Jake I would, he's much better company than some passengers Ive met !

[Drew B]

Given the current Supreme Court you really expect them to impose this to help non US citiizen foreign crew? The issue before the Supreme Court was would they apply the ADA for American passengers. Lets get back to the point, all I said was that the ADA applies to foreign cruise ships with American passengers leaving or entering to the US. I can tell you already that Pension laws don't apply to foreign companies with in the US(ERISA excludes pension of primarily foreign companies and there is another Supreme Court Case on that), but any good lawyer will tell you that hypotheticals make lousy cases. You can say what you want but the USSC has spoken on the issue of the ADA and foreign flagged ships.

 

I don't understand where this argumentative tone is coming from. I'm not trying to argue with you. You pointed out a fact (that USSC case decision) that surprised me, and for fun, I went from there to speculating what other laws the U.S. could impose if they were of such a mind. I don't know what agenda you think I'm trying to push, but chances are, you are wrong.

[smeyer418]

I don't understand where this argumentative tone is coming from. I'm not trying to argue with you. You pointed out a fact (that USSC case decision) that surprised me, and for fun, I went from there to speculating what other laws the U.S. could impose if they were of such a mind. I don't know what agenda you think I'm trying to push, but chances are, you are wrong.

 

LOL I am always wrong...think about it. You are mixing apples and pears. One issue has to do with American citizens using a public accommodation the other has to do with how a foreign cruise line pays its non-US citizens. Not the same not within the same ball park. You can think of anything you want to. The issue here is whether the ADA as it applies to service animals applies to a US citizen getting on a foreign flagged ship leaving or returning to the US. Since the ADA applies, the service dog issue is the same.

[Drew B]

LOL I am always wrong...think about it. You are mixing apples and pears. One issue has to do with American citizens using a public accommodation the other has to do with how a foreign cruise line pays its non-US citizens. Not the same not within the same ball park. You can think of anything you want to. The issue here is whether the ADA as it applies to service animals applies to a US citizen getting on a foreign flagged ship leaving or returning to the US. Since the ADA applies, the service dog issue is the same.

 

Hmmm. I wonder if non-U.S. citizens would be covered...

 

Apples and pears, perhaps, but in both cases, it's about the U.S. government expecting its laws to be upheld outside of its normal jurisdiction. Surprising (to me, at least)... Thanks for the info!