Religious Services on Carnival.

[ala-kat]

...yeah I definitely took it the wrong way, I know several pastors that would be appalled with your question... sheeesh!

 

Moderation in everything - including religion!

 

and when on vacation, you offer up your services for free, cuz, hey, you're on vacation.

[BillnBobbi]

Now this is really getting to be fun. Religion and abortion at the same time. Oh...and politics.....:eek:

 

All you need is sex and you get the holy trinity.

[BillnBobbi]

I'm going to catch up on pages of threads here soon. However, I decided to respond to you first. Most of your above statements are absurd and don't warrant a direct response. Look at my profile and postings and tell me where I represented myself as "gentle." If you know who Edmund Parker is (see my signature below) you would definately know that I'm not gentle.

 

Fr. Bayer was very successful in conducting a Non-Denominational Easter Service on the Carnival Legend. Fr. Bayer was popular among Catholics and other Christians who attended the service.

 

I would guess that around 90% of all Christian beliefs are exactly the same thing. Therefore, a minister of any Christian group would be able to lead a meaningful non-denominational service by simply sticking to core Christian values and beliefs.

 

 

 

You made a blanket statement that "most of (my) statements are absurd", without even challenging the ones that I did make. Therefore your blanket dismissal is meaningless. Which statement didn't you think warranted a reply - perhaps the one about a whole lot of Catholic priests being pedophiles?

 

Just today, a court in our district awarded 11 million dollars to two young adults -one who was a boy and the other a girl when it occurred - for sexual abuse by a person who was in charge of them under the auspices of the RC Church Archdiocese of Rockville Centre, which encompasses Nassau and Suffolk counties on LI, NY. This time by chance, it was NOT a priest, but a lay person employed by them. These two people refused the settlement offered and won a larger amount. Apparently the church AGAIN tried to cover up the matter. So this large scale abuse of vulnerable young people and my mention of pedophilic Catholic priests IS NOT ABSURD.

 

I could care less about your profile, and have no idea (nor am I at present interested) in who Edmund Parker is. I just find a call name like "Attack Dog" something that some one such as a biker outlaw would prefer.

 

Moreover if 90% of all Christian Belief is the same, why have there been so many schisms and subdivisions in the Protestant denominations?

 

Gee, I thought it was kind of nice when toward the latter part of the 20th century one of the popes got around to "absolving" Jews for the death of Jesus. I know I was eternally greatful. Only took two millenia. How magnanimous of John, or John Paul or JohnPaulGeorgeRingo or whomever.

 

Religion does not unite people, it divides people, and has been the cause of more deaths throughout history, than any other cause.

 

Once again, do your religion on your own time, and leave the rest out of it.

 

I've found over the years, that atheists are far more accepting of peoples differences than religious types. For one thing, athiests would never have slammed two planes into the WTC IN THE NAME OF SOME GOD.

 

BnB

[Mikel1733]

Whew, that was a lot of reading. I'm glad that people are being a little more respectful and agree to disagree. Let me paraphrase Bruin Steve. He brought up a valid point about worship being more meaningful among the locals of a destianation city then on the ship. I also understand that a cruise ship is not specifically a place or worship. It's supposed to be a temporary resort community.

 

However, it's not always easy or even available being able to make it to a proper place of worship. My original intent in starting this thread was to find out if there are enough people interested in having a religous service on board the ship. No the person doing the service does not absolutely have to be a member of the clergy. It's just nice to have a clergyman when they are available. On the Rhapsody Of The Seas they had a non-denominational service that was lead by a crewmember. I can't remember what her main job was. However, she was Catholic and missed being able to attend mass regularly due to her job. Therefore, she was allowed to lead a prayer service every Sunday when priest wasn't available. She did say that they had a priest on board the ship periodically.

 

Cruiselines are out to make money and please their passengers. If enough passenger would be pleased by having religious services on board then they should be allowed to have religious services. Like any other entertainment activity no one would be required to attend who does not wish to go.

 

As far as money goes. How expensive is it to do cruiselubbers' idea of having a room set aside for a everyone to meet and pray? Crewmembers and passengers could lead the service on their own if they wish or just sit together in silence.

 

I would rather have clergy on board. However, some of you feel that the cost of the clergyman might be passed on to you. Yes that is possible but I don't think you will notice the difference on your bill. If we are going to talk about financing someone elses activities then we should do away with all the free anmeties and entertainment on the ship. Not everyone goes to Friends of Dorothy or Bill W. Not everyone goes to the shows. Not everyone goes to the activities. Not everyone uses the formal dinning room. Some people don't use the pool... ect. I don't even use the elevators. However I don't complain about the cost of maintaining and operating the elevators coming out of my bill. Perhaps the only free service we all use on the ship is the toilet.

 

There are other cruiselines such as HAL and NCL that regularly have priests on board. There are enough paying customers who appreciate having religious services as part of the activities offered on the ship to justify this service. If enough of Carnival's clientele wants religious services then what's wrong with asking for it? I'm not asking for it specifically for me.

 

If this is so wrong then maybe we can ask Carnival to do away with all free services and entertainment options.

 

I live in a town of 29,000 population in the middle of Nebraska. I have been on 12 cruises and I go because I enjoy the ocean, new unique ports, discovery of the different cultures, the food experience, the entertainment and activites on the ship etc........! I can't find any of those activities anywhere in my state. I do however have 42 churches in my town. Each feel they are unique and have the correct message. Which ones get a free bunk on the boat? I pay good money for a few days a year to go and have an experience I can't get anywhere near my home. I can get the religious exprience x 42 here. Can't we all just get away from everyday life for a few days?

[BillnBobbi]

What religous meaning does a chistmas tree have?

 

I did not know that evergreen trees grew in the middle east? :rolleyes:

 

 

The Christmas tree is a pagan symbol, which was adopted into Christianity when it began converting the northern european pagan Germanic tribes. It did not become a popular symbol until the middle of the 19th Century when Queen Victoria and Prince Albert started decorating the palace with one at Christmas time. Prince Albert of course, was from the German branch of the "blueblooded" royals of Europe. Once the upper classes started imitating this practice, it became more widespread. Anglophiles on this side of the lake took up this practice at this time as well.

 

In the above cultures, the evergreen tree was for obvious reasons as symbol of eternal life, and was beseeched during the fall and winter of the year, to keep life going as these people watched the sun "die".

 

Now of course, we know that the sun does not die, that the earth revolves around the sun (for which statements both Copernicus and Galileo were excommunicated by the ever vigilant Catholic Church), and that evergreen trees do in fact have a finite lifespan, as does every living thing on the planet.

 

A case can also be made for the fact that Catholicism (and Eastern Orthodoxy for that matter),is not a monotheistic religion but merely an update of the rival Mithraic religion which was popular in the Roman Empire around/ before 100 bce to 200 ce.

That religion had a pantheon of Gods - fathers,mothers( the virgin mary - paralleled by Ishtar, Esther etc), sons(Jesus), daughters( Mary Magdalene), and minor demi-gods ( in RC - saints ) to whom one prayed

for minor things such as an eventful journey somewhere, or for good health etc.

 

To check out the trouble with Christmas, read the book of the same name by Tom Flynn.

 

BnB

[BillnBobbi]

Remember I said it wasn't to make anyone feel uncomfortable. It is more just to as I said earlier enforce the moment of silence & let people know they have the right to pray during that moment. No one ever said it has to be out loud ever. Our children were given 1 minute a day to clear their heads before school starts....if they pray they pray if they just think gosh I wish this day was over they can do that too.....but they should just have a moment to clear their heads before work begins. Just because they are children doesn't mean they are any less stressed the the adults that need a minute to think before they begin their day as well. The moment is already offical in every school in America even as we speak...it's just the point of whether each school chooses to use it or not and it's my right as an American to let people know they have the right to use that minute.

 

BTW believe it or not I am coming that way in June to see the Tut exhibit in Philadelphia. I also plan on showing my children the rest of what history has to show us. We are very excited to be coming that way!

:D

 

What you and those like you are doing is attempting to side step the constitutional judgements which have been handed down. I can't wait to see how this one is argued when it reaches the high court.

 

Another sidestep is the fundamentalists attempt to first get the teaching of Evolution ( the basis of all modern biology ) out of the schools, and failing that trying to get the "alternative" of "Intelligent Design" taught. Thankfully, the court of appeals in Pennsylvania shot that one down, when about a dozen idiots on a local school board voted in favor of intelligent design. At the next election, all of them went the way of the dodo bird.

 

It was interesting to see three (count 'em three!!!) candidates for the Republican party presidential nomination state unequivocally that they DO NOT believe in evolution. In fact the current resident of the oval office has stated that he believes in intelligent design. A look each morning in the bathroom mirror ought to dissuade him of that notion.

 

BnB

 

"Somewhere in Texas, a village is missing its idiot"

[BillnBobbi]

I can't say I agree with everything you said. However, I don't blame you for the mess. I don't know were JulesNBama gets off calling us racist. However, there are a lot of people on this thread that are voicing their own insecurities. I'm surprised that this has turned into such a controversal subject.

 

I think some people are just looking for ways to misinterpret and twist your words around. The Admiral has even done that to me concerning the angry face icon.:mad: I think that they are just looking for anything in your words that they can use against you.

 

Perhaps I wasn't clear when I said, "It's interesting that on a cruise eveyone seems to be tolerent of each other's differences. Why is that same respect not shown here?" I was actually refering to how people were attacking you.

 

It is amazing how people are getting so upset about something that doesn't have any impact on them. When you and I walk away from the discussion we will be at peace. Some of the other poster will leave angry.

 

I don't go to the "Friends Of Dorthy Meetings" or "Friends Of Bill W." However, I do respect the fact that the cruise lines allocate resources to fill the nich. Does anyone know how many people go to these meetings?

 

 

Why are you surprised that a discussion of religion has "turned" controversial. That's been a human tradition for a minimum of 8,000 years. I personally have not seen anyone voicing "insecurities" but in fact voicing strong points of view - just as you have. You seem to have a knack for summarily dismissing those whom YOU disagree with by using such broad brush terms as "insecurity" and "absurd" and then not even bothering to back up your statements with cogent examples.

 

Now, you state that you do not go to either the Friends of Dorothy or Friends of Bill W. meetings. Therefore I will assume you are neither gay nor a recovering alcoholic. Those meetings are conducted BY those participating.

the F of D are for the purpose of those who are on board who are in the GLBT community to meet one another, and the latter make a lot of sense, considering that the average cruise ship these days has a dozen or more bars on board. Neither of these groups seeks an outside person to conduct their meetings.

 

The difference here is in that you want to hire a priest or minister for your indulgences.

 

BnB

[BillnBobbi]

In this case you might want to take pictures of yourself off the Internet. Just a thought.

 

You also might want to take your birthdate, and town in which you live off as well. For someone who has stirred up controversy in their home state, with regard to some of the same issues being discussed here, it is frankly INCREDIBLY naive of you to make it so easy for someone who would want to find you in person.

 

I certainly wouldn't allow any children (if we still had minors for children) of mine to post even this amount of information.

 

I would urge you for your own protection to remove your pictures of your vacation from the internet, as well as the other information.

 

BnB

[BillnBobbi]

Ah I understand all that for certain. I grew up Catholic....I was born in NJ didn't come till NC till I was 12 & also had many Jewish friends. To be honest with you I had so many of each that I celebrated both. I know that sounds close to impossible but it does work. By showing respect for each individual need you really can blend them if you try. It was always interesting in my group to learn about both and the importance of both. You really get a whole sense of respect to the universe and the people in it that way. It's a pretty unique thing. I later became a Christian so I added more stuff to the mix.

 

So yes everytime I see a set of Rosary beads I smile, I actually still have a set that on occassion I pray with because they give me comfort. I see menorahs & I smile because I know what they stand for & the idea of giving something from the heart on each day is awesome. I bought my children Dreidels and taught them how to play with them while teaching them their meaning. I see my Christmas tree & I smile & give my gifts from heart. I've learned however over the years....that Christmas is best spent doing something together....like going on a vacation that what it is buying stuff! That's become a regular practice for 3 years now! We buy a few little things but save our Christmas as a time to spend with each other. I've accepted my adopted online brother as being Jain & have learned about his gods & I understand why my brother believes in Jesus, but not God. I believe there is good in every religion regardless of whether I agree with it or not as I believe if something is so important that people will stand up for what they believe in then there must be something good about it.

 

Gosh you guys are learning all sorts of things about me!

 

 

Do you drink Kool-Aid? Is that available on board ship?

[CruzCra-Z]

Why are you surprised that a discussion of religion has "turned" controversial. That's been a human tradition for a minimum of 8,000 years. I personally have not seen anyone voicing "insecurities" but in fact voicing strong points of view - just as you have. You seem to have a knack for summarily dismissing those whom YOU disagree with by using such broad brush terms as "insecurity" and "absurd" and then not even bothering to back up your statements with cogent examples.

 

Now, you state that you do not go to either the Friends of Dorothy or Friends of Bill W. meetings. Therefore I will assume you are neither gay nor a recovering alcoholic. Those meetings are conducted BY those participating.

the F of D are for the purpose of those who are on board who are in the GLBT community to meet one another, and the latter make a lot of sense, considering that the average cruise ship these days has a dozen or more bars on board. Neither of these groups seeks an outside person to conduct their meetings.

 

The difference here is in that you want to hire a priest or minister for your indulgences.

 

BnB

 

 

Hey BnB... the only reason I keep returning to this dreadful thread is to read your replies. I love it when someone can actually post intelligently and truthfully! ;)

[Attack Dog]

You made a blanket statement that "most of (my) statements are absurd", without even challenging the ones that I did make. Therefore your blanket dismissal is meaningless. Which statement didn't you think warranted a reply - perhaps the one about a whole lot of Catholic priests being pedophiles?

 

Just today, a court in our district awarded 11 million dollars to two young adults -one who was a boy and the other a girl when it occurred - for sexual abuse by a person who was in charge of them under the auspices of the RC Church Archdiocese of Rockville Centre, which encompasses Nassau and Suffolk counties on LI, NY. This time by chance, it was NOT a priest, but a lay person employed by them. These two people refused the settlement offered and won a larger amount. Apparently the church AGAIN tried to cover up the matter. So this large scale abuse of vulnerable young people and my mention of pedophilic Catholic priests IS NOT ABSURD.

 

I could care less about your profile, and have no idea (nor am I at present interested) in who Edmund Parker is. I just find a call name like "Attack Dog" something that some one such as a biker outlaw would prefer.

 

Moreover if 90% of all Christian Belief is the same, why have there been so many schisms and subdivisions in the Protestant denominations?

 

Gee, I thought it was kind of nice when toward the latter part of the 20th century one of the popes got around to "absolving" Jews for the death of Jesus. I know I was eternally greatful. Only took two millenia. How magnanimous of John, or John Paul or JohnPaulGeorgeRingo or whomever.

 

Religion does not unite people, it divides people, and has been the cause of more deaths throughout history, than any other cause.

 

Once again, do your religion on your own time, and leave the rest out of it.

 

I've found over the years, that atheists are far more accepting of peoples differences than religious types. For one thing, athiests would never have slammed two planes into the WTC IN THE NAME OF SOME GOD.

 

BnB

 

I was specifically referring to your comments in your 1st reply directed toward me. You have made a many valid statements. However, your views on religion (Espicially the Catholic Church) are based more on emotionalism rather than rationalism. We could spend a lot of time on this. I'm not going to get into the specifics. Besides I don't think you would listen openly anyway.

 

I find some of your comments hilarious. Most recently the "Biker Outlaw" Comment. Also your comment when you read too much into my words about "an army of retired priests." I had a funny visual of a bunch of old men in clerical attire ransacking and looting a cruise ship.:D

 

One point you do make is that religion divides people. Your correct. However, religion can also unite people. (I see it all the time at church.) Christians have been around for over 2000 years. People being who they are will have disagreements at times. Sometimes they will allow even small disagrements divide them. This is why there are thousands of different Christian denominations. Even Muslims and Jews are not totally exempt from division. There are many subgroups among Muslims and Jews as well. Happy cruising to you.

[Attack Dog]

I live in a town of 29,000 population in the middle of Nebraska. I have been on 12 cruises and I go because I enjoy the ocean, new unique ports, discovery of the different cultures, the food experience, the entertainment and activites on the ship etc........! I can't find any of those activities anywhere in my state. I do however have 42 churches in my town. Each feel they are unique and have the correct message. Which ones get a free bunk on the boat? I pay good money for a few days a year to go and have an experience I can't get anywhere near my home. I can get the religious exprience x 42 here. Can't we all just get away from everyday life for a few days?

 

I respect your point. However, a devotion for a wife, child, or God doesn't go away for a few days.

[ldock]

Actually, there is no government/tax supported abortion option for anyone. If an organization wants government funding, they must prove that not only will they not perform abortions, they will not encourage people to seek out abortions elsewhere either. Just in case you were actually thinking your taxes went for abortions. Many people make silly statements about their taxes without actually knowing what they do.

 

i live in Canada, and from my understanding yes we do. Thanks for input though

[ldock]

Actually it isn't..if you would READ the entire post you would see the poster is from Canada where socialized medicine means that YES ..tax dollars do fund abortions....not that that is a bad thing!:cool:

 

Thankyou!!! boy did i start something, wasnt meaning too thats for sure

[crystalblue0610]

I don't think it's necessary to have a clergyman per se...if they had a prayer room or something along those line then that would be fine.

 

But some people get really huffy about the specifics that this might make them have almost every clergyman onboard...Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Buddist, Hindu, etc....

 

If they start having just one....it will never be enough for some people. Personally I'm fine with a clergyman but I know that onboard if there isn't one it won't be so bad. I'll still say my grace and prayers and be fine:)

[Attack Dog]

Why are you surprised that a discussion of religion has "turned" controversial. That's been a human tradition for a minimum of 8,000 years. I personally have not seen anyone voicing "insecurities" but in fact voicing strong points of view - just as you have. You seem to have a knack for summarily dismissing those whom YOU disagree with by using such broad brush terms as "insecurity" and "absurd" and then not even bothering to back up your statements with cogent examples.

 

Now, you state that you do not go to either the Friends of Dorothy or Friends of Bill W. meetings. Therefore I will assume you are neither gay nor a recovering alcoholic. Those meetings are conducted BY those participating.

the F of D are for the purpose of those who are on board who are in the GLBT community to meet one another, and the latter make a lot of sense, considering that the average cruise ship these days has a dozen or more bars on board. Neither of these groups seeks an outside person to conduct their meetings.

 

The difference here is in that you want to hire a priest or minister for your indulgences.

 

BnB

 

A priest or minister is my preference. I've also indicated that even just a time to gather would work as well. At a minumum I think the cruiselines should at least offer this indulgence.

 

Your right I havn't been specifically backing some of my statements. I havn't done it mainly to save time. I need to reconsider or at least balance my previous practice.

 

Why am I confused about this turning controversal? It's not that I don't think religion is controversal. However, I didn't expect anyone to object to allowing others to do their own thing. Mikel1733 so far has made the most sense in arguing his or her opposition. Mikel made a strong point about how much it would cost to bring in a clergymember and which one to bring in? I won't repeat my rebuttle. However, am I correct in assuming that you and a few others will still opose having a religous service if it is conducted similiarly to a Friends Of Dorothy Meeting? I mean would you still be fired up about the issue if we the passenger and any attending crew members conducted the service ourselves? So far I am under the impression that many people may still oppose this.

[Attack Dog]

Thankyou!!! boy did i start something, wasnt meaning too thats for sure[/quote

 

I know the feeling.

[kyrisong1]

After reading this thread I'm gearing up to start my own "So who deserves to win in November 2008" thread, make popcorn, maybe some mojitas and watch the sparks flyyyyyyyyyyy rofl ;)

Hey Mikel where do you live in Nebraska? I'm in Omaha!!

And AttackDog I actually worked in medical in our prison here in Omaha, I KNOW what you do, and it's sure not easy or gentle, I definitely give you kudos for the job you guys do!!!

Remember everyone a wiseman or wisea** once said "don't sweat the small stuff, and it's all small stuff, well except when the rum is gone, Elizabeth why is the rum gone:confused: Cheers, Carole

[BillnBobbi]

A priest or minister is my preference. I've also indicated that even just a time to gather would work as well. At a minumum I think the cruiselines should at least offer this indulgence.

 

Your right I havn't been specifically backing some of my statements. I havn't done it mainly to save time. I need to reconsider or at least balance my previous practice.

 

Why am I confused about this turning controversal? It's not that I don't think religion is controversal. However, I didn't expect anyone to object to allowing others to do their own thing. Mikel1733 so far has made the most sense in arguing his or her opposition. Mikel made a strong point about how much it would cost to bring in a clergymember and which one to bring in? I won't repeat my rebuttle. However, am I correct in assuming that you and a few others will still opose having a religous service if it is conducted similiarly to a Friends Of Dorothy Meeting? I mean would you still be fired up about the issue if we the passenger and any attending crew members conducted the service ourselves? So far I am under the impression that many people may still oppose this.

 

I'm going to answer this posting first and then reply to your earlier posting.

As I said, I have absolutely no problem if people want to do a religious service in private. That means that if one of the meeting rooms on board (such as when conventioners are on a cruise) is reserved for private religious services that is absolutely fine with me. I am not against the expression of religion. I am against kind of coercing of folks (and that includes the minute of silence in public schools - it IS a form of coercian), and I am against the idea of hiring some clergy or allowing a clergy a free ride on board for the specific purpose of conducting such services.

 

I don't think anyone here, ESPECIALLY we infidels, object to your doing anything private. The objection is to the hiring of clergy by Carnival, or their subsidy by giving them free cruises to perform such services (which is tantamount to hiring since they are being provided with a service of value -i.e, barter.)