What are parents thinking?

[WaterWish]

shipknotshore, I think that's a testament to your good parenting that he felt able to make that choice. In contrast to what it sounds like stbmom is saying, giving kids SOME free rein to make decisions doesn't mean HOLDING BACK on the GUIDANCE. It doesn't mean letting kids do whatever they want because "Oh, they'll do what's best for themselves." It means GUIDING them along the way and having a LOT of OPEN COMMUNICATION. I may sound defensive because what I "heard" stbmom saying is that giving kids some freedom of choice is a one-way ticket to sexual assault and juvenile delinquency. However, FORCING KIDS to NOT to hang out with someone, or FORCING KIDS to wear something they don't like, is one sure way to get them to do the opposite of what you want, and to be nasty and resentful about it to boot. It takes subtle MODELING, good EXAMPLES, mutual respect, and LOTS OF TALK. One thing I've noticed both on these boards and also with my church friends is that many young teenagers of involved parents are actually a lot more enjoyable to be around and less rebellious than in generations past. I think this due directly to the more recent phenomenon of being able to talk to kids about sex, drugs, etc., and to be more open to questions, etc. In my day that stuff was not discussed, at least not by my parents.

[stbmom]

So, sbtmom, what's your point?

My point is, to act like a cruise ship is your "safe" little neighborhood doesn't make much since to me. It makes even less since we people assume ports of call, some of them third world countries is your "safe" little neighborhood. See, in an earlier post, you mentioned your neighborhood is safe. How safe are the countries that you visit on a cruise?

Letting a 10 year old ride their bike in their own neighborhood is one thing. Letting a 10 year old roam around a ship with 3000 people is another. To compare the two is like comparing Elvis lyrics (the bad boy of your day) to Eminem lyrics (the bad boy of your kids day).

For the parents who don't see a difference, I pity. I pity because that is the same response I get all the time. For instance, I don't personally think that "freedom" for a young teenager is all inclusive. For instance, yes you can decide what to wear (within reason) but you can't decide whether or not to wear your seatbelt. Just like on a cruise, they should be able to decide what age appropriate activity to do; I am floored by the people that let their kids decide whether or not to attend an "adults only" event or spend their time smiling in the face of grown men. To me, not only is that bad parenting, it is stupid.

Like the story from Stretch - those parents had no idea their child was out drunk, but I guess maybe you would just feel that they gave her the choice to fail. I think letting your under age child choose to drink is setting them up to fail.

Even as an adult your don't have "all freedom", there are rules you need to follow. I can't dress any way I want to at my job, and I am an adult. If I can't dress however I want to, why should a 12 year old?

There are lots of ways to give a child freedom, I don't think putting them in harms way is a good one.

[nosnobunny]

This post was not started to talk about people letting their 18 year old ADULT children walk alone on a cruise. It was about the people that allow their 15 and 16 year old girls to have their butts grabbed by grown men at midnight (which I have seen with my own eyes), the parents that need a crew member to kick their kids out of an "adults only" function, and the parents that let their 12 year old and under kids walk around a ship alone. This is not your neighborhood - this is a ship with lots of different types of people.

Also, anyone comparing Elvis music to the lyrics of today is sadly mistaken. Let me start by saying I am 29, not 54. I don't think Elvis talked about molesting a woman with a flashlight (lyrics from one popular song), punching a woman in the stomach until she had a miscarriage if she wouldn't have an abortion (that was one of Usher's songs - #1 on the charts for quite some time), or christina's song "dirty". Elvis shaking is hips was crazy for your time - I'll admit, but don't you think comparing that to music today is a bit of a leap?

Have you parents who let your kids wear whatever they want to ever been to their school? Ever served as chaperon at a school dance? Not that your children shouldn't go - they should. But with that said, when they take that same behavior the perform around other 14 and 15 year old kids, and perform it on a ship with drunk adults - they will get the opportunity to grow up REAL FAST. You think you have taught you kid to say no, but many adults report being presured to buy jewlrey from vendors in some locations. Guess what those pushy vendors are trying to sell your teenager.

I'm not saying put a leash on them, just be aware. Especially those 12 and 13 year olds.

But I know, your kid would never do that. Your kid will never encounter a bad person. Your kid at 12 has developed the social skills they will need for a college campus (even though most kids don't have those skills until 17 or 18).

I love to see parents like you on TV when something happens. Like the Columbine parents that had no idea their kids were making bombs in the basement. Or the parents of the 3 13 year olds in Georgia that just baked a cake with blech, past, and other chemicals that put 12 classmates in the hospital. Their parents had "great, wonderful, suburban kids too", until last week that is.

See, my job has had me in the living room of a lot of parents like you. When their young teenager has been molested by an older man. They always taught their kids the right thing. They just didn't monitor the on line activity, or they let them roam the streets at night to give them "freedom" they would need to develop the skills to go to college in 5 years. Or maybe you are like the parent of the 15 year old that took pornographic pictures of herself and put them on the internet. See, her mom let her make her own decisions on what to wear too. Even if that mean showing her butt crack and having "boy toy" written across her cheast. And her lovely 15 year old got the idea for the pictures from the wonderful family friend - a 30 year old man who just happened to like spending time with teenage girls.

But this would never happen to your child. Your child will only met nice, lovely people where ever they go. Your child will never be around a person that knows exactly how to take advantage of a 12 or 13 year old. Your child is mature enough to travel around foreign countries all alone (do you know the rape statistics of the ports of call? You wouldn't let them roam around a local inner city with less murder rates than some of these ports would you?). But that's okay, because your child is different. Your child is perfect and your child lives in a perfect world with perfect people. Keep this post for when I sit in your living room.

 

You have made a huge and incorrect assumption of what I meant when I suggested letting teens make some of their own mistakes. Let them make the minor ones - they'll live. What you were talking about are hardly minor. Also, I don't recall anyone mentioning letting their children go off on their own during a port call. That is just too frightening for words.

 

I'm curious - do you have any children of your own? :confused: You sound like you're in some form of law enforcement. In a broad sense I am too and I know how it can taint your point of view.

 

Beth

[WaterWish]

sbtmom, I'm sorry if I misspoke. I didn't intend to equate my neighborhood with a cruise ship -- far from it. I was attempting to illustrate the baby steps we use to let our kids grow up and start becoming more independent. You may want to re-read it. I agree with you that there are a lot of parents out there with their heads in the sand who think they have nothing to worry about with their kids. But my second post on the subject I think explains my perception of the difference between those parents and parents who really DO have a handle on things.

[cruisingagentone]

stbmom

 

I couldn't have said it any better. The longer I read this thread the madder I got at some of the shear stupidity in it.

BRAVO!!!

[LoriLinay]

Uh-oh....Beth got out of her seat.....(I'll hold your drink)

[stretch]

For every story like that one about the drunk girl and the two men, there are how many stories of kids who come back to their cabin each night safe and sober? Well, of course we don't know because it's so common it's not newsworthy. No one regales fellow cruisers of the tale of well-behaved teens because it's not very exciting. The majority of kids handle their freedom wisely, and the majority of parents must be doing something right. Yes, there are definitely some exceptions out there but please don't paint every teen and every parent with the same broad brush.

 

No one here has stated that the majority of kids on cruises do anything wrong. And no one has said the there aren't drunk and obnoxious adults on cruises. I'll be the first one to say the 95% of the kids on cruises are very well behaved, know right from wrong, and handle themselves very well. But there can also be alot of peer pressure put on them and all it takes is that one sour apple to convince other kids to do something that is wrong.

I was a teenager, albiet quite a while ago, but I do remember doing some extremely stupid stuff back then, and I actually came from the original "Beaver Cleaver" family. The kids today, aren't a whole lot different from us at their age, they just have to face a whole lot more temptations in life than we did. The only thing parents can do is to teach them right from wrong, to use common sense and have a sense of responsibility that goes with that age.

Now, about a 5 year old roaming around a ship at night, the parents should have been called to the Captains quarters and had the sermon of their life, that is just before being keel-hauled and put off at the next port. IMHO

I think I'll have a nice single malt scotch, two cubes please.

Stretch

[WaterWish]

stretch, Hear, hear! Well said.

[flowergirl15409]

as a parent of three teens and an 8 yr. old, i say AMEN!!!

[nosnobunny]

Uh-oh....Beth got out of her seat.....(I'll hold your drink)

 

You know me too well. :D

 

Beth

[LoriLinay]

So, to sum it all up....

 

1.) Cruise ship is not like home neighborhood.

2.) Parenting is hard.

3.) We are all drunk

4.) 5 year old, wandering halls, BAD.

5.) 18 year olds, drunk in halls, not QUITE as bad.

6.) 12 year old girls with Juicy tees, Not wise.

 

Is it time for lunch yet?

[stbmom]

You have made a huge and incorrect assumption of what I meant when I suggested letting teens make some of their own mistakes. Let them make the minor ones - they'll live. What you were talking about are hardly minor. Also, I don't recall anyone mentioning letting their children go off on their own during a port call. That is just too frightening for words.

 

I'm curious - do you have any children of your own? :confused: You sound like you're in some form of law enforcement. In a broad sense I am too and I know how it can taint your point of view.

 

Beth

As I mentioned in an earlier post - I am 29, of course I wouldn't have teenage children (I had a mom that didn't believe in all inclusive freedom - thank you mom!). I am pregnant. However, I spent 4 years while getting my ph.d. having in my home (an many occassions full time) young teenagers who had been molested (mostly by family friends or relatives) helping them to re-establish boundaries and learn how to be a kid again.

I spend hours helping kids no one thought had a chance learn basic and advanced math and english skills so that they can go to college and have true freedom.

I spent a summer teaching a group of teenagers that didn't pass their math proficiency test. I taught them not only math, but math in context through business skills and learning the stock market. Everyone of my 30 students passed the math test that next school year. Many of them are now in their final year of college - they had been written off as unable to learn.

So, if your point is that since I don't have a teenager that I birthed, I shouldn't be speaking on the subject - I think I've earned my spot.

I don't think kids are bad, I think they need a chance. I think 95% of kids can have great success if set up for success. I also think cruises are a great way for kids to see the world.

Any other questions?

[LoriLinay]

Yes, can I get YOU something from the bar? And Liz, pass the peanuts on down!

[nosnobunny]

No that wasn't my point at all, nothing to do with earning one's spot. I was just curious.

 

Thank you for your reply. It answered a lot of questions I had.

 

Beth

[hstrybuf]

stbmom, I love your post! The sad thing is, once you're sitting in someone's living room, it's already too late for their children. I also agree with those who say you must allow your children some freedom (within reason) to make their own mistakes. We can't do that for them because they won't learn how to deal with situations in the future when we aren't there.

 

Being a parent is tough no matter what your financial situation. Get involved, talk to your children, set limits and consequences. Give them free rein? Not under my roof! And certainly not on a cruise ship.

[WaterWish]

LoriLinay, You are SO FUNNY (and diplomatic) I think I am going to book Mariner next October so I can cruise with you.

 

We're on Navigator 12/18/04. Very few fellow cruisers on these boards :-(

[Shanafan]

I'm headed up to the bar....let's see.... Maine wants a beer, Canada wants a bloody mary...minnesota needs a martini...anyone else while I'm up?

 

Someone else will have to get the snacks, my hands are full..

And Michigan will take any of the above

[nosnobunny]

Be careful what you wish for Water Wish because if you join the Reali Tini cruise, you'll get not only LoriLinay but Elizanessie and (shudder) ME! :D

 

Beth

[Heidict]

Is there any rum in here? I can mix it with some oj and cranberry to make it more of a breakfast drink. I'll bring cashews!!

[FinelyCruising]

Nope. I think you will find as your child grows up your point of view over time will change and develop and mature. I think you have sucessfully managed to make incorrect assumptions and regardless of your credentials there are many out there who just know more from practical experince and aging. Belvie me, what is comming is really not at all that bad and at times is just plain wonderful. ;)

[LoriLinay]

Water, it's a CC group cruise!! Book it!!! Book It!!! I'm even funnier in person!

 

NoSnoBunny is booked. Elizanessie is booked. Anyone else?

 

And just because I booked an Owner's Suite (couldn't resist the opp to brag that up a little) doesn't mean ALL drinks are on me though...

 

Oh, and the result of my level headed parenting will be there. (the kids) As well as my ex-husband. Now THAT is funny.

[hstrybuf]

Lori, it isn't lunch time yet. Would you mix me something fruity please? :D

 

Wish I could make the Reali-Tini cruise! I'd love to see Lori and Mir and everyone else from the Enchanted Tiara cruise and meet people like Beth!

[hstrybuf]

Water, it's a CC group cruise!! Book it!!! Book It!!! I'm even funnier in person!

 

NoSnoBunny is booked. Elizanessie is booked. Anyone else?

 

And just because I booked an Owner's Suite (couldn't resist the opp to brag that up a little) doesn't mean ALL drinks are on me though...

 

Oh, and the result of my level headed parenting will be there. (the kids) As well as my ex-husband. Now THAT is funny.

It's true! You are even funnier in person. Ahhh I see the ex will be along, the kids and another suite! Shades of our last cruise! LOL

[nosnobunny]

Lori, it isn't lunch time yet. Would you mix me something fruity please? :D

 

Wish I could make the Reali-Tini cruise! I'd love to see Lori and Mir and everyone else from the Enchanted Tiara cruise and meet people like Beth!

 

Oh come on - join us! We can all sit up on the Lido deck and hash over what it takes to be a good parent. Easy for me to say because my youngest is 29. I have been freed!!! :p Over drinks of course. :D

 

Beth

[hstrybuf]

I'd love to Beth, but it doesn't seem to be in my future right now. Would we be having these discussions while wearing feather boas? Hee, hee, hee!