dougnewmanatsea

Ruby is lucky to have the opportunity to sail with Capt. Albert - I haven't (yet) but I've known him in cyberspace for a long time and he's great... A real ship enthusiast. It is always a pleasure to come across someone who is passionate about his job.

 

As for itinerary changes, it's true that some cruise lines are adjusting their itineraries due to fuel prices. Perfectly legal, of course, since the passage contract allows them to do just about anything they want. I can see why people would be upset about that, though - it is, after all, being done for the safety of the operators' profit margins, not the safety of the passengers. There's nothing you can do about it, but I can understand why people don't like it.

 

On the other hand, people who complain about weather-related changes are jerks, pure and simple (I can think of a lot of other things to call them but I don't think I can print those words here ;) ). Of course these are probably the same people who would be moaning if the ship didn't divert and got caught in rough seas instead. With some people you just can't win! I imagine most of us have missed ports because of bad weather at one time or another and I certainly am not going to second-guess the judgment of the cruise line and the ship's master in keeping passengers, crew and ship safe. (In particular this comes up a lot with tender ports, since tendering isn't safe in really bad weather.)

Count me in as another member of the anti-baked-Alaska-parade club.

I was under the impression that the new owners of MARCO POLO had paid Star Cruises for the right to use that name.

 

One wonders what they think of the name of MARCO POLO II.

 

There is also a big Croatian ferry called MARKO POLO but I doubt many people think about that.

 

Anyway, it cannot be as bad as the name EXPLORER. For a time there were simultaneously two cruise ships called EXPLORER and another called EXPLORER II. One EXPLORER sank in the Antarctic and EXPLORER II is back to her old name of MINERVA so it is not so bad as it was now, but then we have just gained NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC EXPLORER to confuse things a little bit.

 

And of course you have people who say things like, "I was on the FREEDOM last month" and inevitably I have no idea whether they mean CARNIVAL FREEDOM or FREEDOM OF THE SEAS. (I'm not even sure whether Carnival copied Royal Caribbean or vice versa.)

The lattice-like funnels were on MICHELANGELO and RAFFAELLO.

 

MAXIM GORKIY is a few years newer than they were. The mid to late 1960s were certainly an era when ship designers were trying out new funnel designs. QE2's original funnel is another example (she is the same age as MAXIM).

Doug, about Maxim Gorky you said, "we" have . . . ." When were you on Maxim Gorky? I know you'll like the "Adventure" ships and can look forward to sailing on them altho' perhaps you will want to rejoin the MP2 after her changeover?

Sorry, I haven't been on her. I didn't mean to imply that - I meant "we have" as in, "it still exists".

 

I do plan on joining MARCO POLO II for a cruise next year, though.

 

I turn 21 in March.

Doug , Never having seen the ship I reserve my comments. My only concern is the cold feeling in the placement of seating and the awful, uncomfortable looking chairs in the dining rooms. Ten minutes is one of those chairs and I will be dining on room service all month.

I can't comment on the comfort of the chairs as I've not sat in them... Well, they do look rather uncomfortable, but maybe they're better in real life. If not, I hope they get replaced.

 

I must say, I have been on some ships with incredibly uncomfortable furniture. I have never understood this - don't the people buying the stuff sit in it first?

Parts of MAXIM GORKIY's interiors do look rather dated and '80s-ish, but I hope they don't change the rest of the ship too much - she is the most original ship of her type out there.

 

There is a big contiguous swath of original public rooms I'd hate to see destroyed. We have the Volga Bar, the Zighuli Club, the Library, the Gallery (containing the shops and connecting all these), and the Theatre... All mostly as they were in 1969. The connective spaces - stairtowers, vestibules, passageways - are mostly original too and come to think of it, the cabins have not been changed too much either.

 

Of course there are other parts of the interiors that have been heavily modified but overall she is probably the best-preserved major vintage ship out there. She's a lot more original than MONA LISA, OCEANIC, SAGA ROSE, SAGA RUBY or any other large "classic" ship that remains, except ROTTERDAM of course, and she's a museum piece now (albeit, I am sure, a spectacular one). MAXIM GORKIY retains her original layout, her original profile and a large part of her original decor... Which you really can't say of any other major ship this age that I can think of. OCEANIC ticks the profile box but not layout or decor, the Sagas have none of the three (sadly), MONA LISA has some original decor left but the profile and layout are radically changed, etc.

 

As for QUEST FOR ADVENTURE, she looks quite appealing. I would like to sail in either her or SPIRIT OF ADVENTURE. (Minimum age is 21, not 50 like the "real" Saga ships!)

 

I do not think we will see Saga building a new ship - too expensive. Even if the ship was a conventional new ship (not styled to look like the current Saga sisters, which would be so expensive I don't even want to think about it), I think the price would be too high for Saga to make money of the ship. (Look at what e.g. the new Oceania ships are costing - but Oceania can bring in money in a way Saga can't.) The future of Saga cruising is in the Spirit of Adventure product, not the "classic" Saga product. I think after SAGA ROSE retires in 2010 it will be just RUBY as a "traditional" Saga ship while Spirit of Adventure will be the "growth" side of the operation.

All the mid-century Italians were drop-dead gorgeous IMO. And while we usually only think about the big liners, in the 1950s and 1960s the whole Finmare passenger fleet was rebuilt wholesale, and I defy anyone to find an ugly ship among it. And of course similar ships were built for private and even foreign companies too, like Costa, Home Lines and SAL (GRIPSHOLM, a splendid Italian-Swedish collaboration).

Thanks for posting that site with the pictures of Kristina Regina. All that wood paneling is fantastic! Too bad some designer redecorated some of the public rooms with furniture and carpeting which are not true to the period and ambiance of the ship.

Yes, it would be nice to see a refurbishment that is sympathetic to her original style. But all things considered, she is far less altered than the overwhelming majority of other ships her age (or even newer). It looks to me like she is still a ship in which one could easily imagine oneself being in an earlier era.

 

Here are some older photos of her interiors, from the time she was called BOREA. Most of the time she had that name (1977-1987) she was out of service but I guess these photos probably date from the late 1970s or early 1980s. Her appearance today is still very similar to that in those photos but some of the furniture is definitely different. Of course I don't even know if the furniture in those photos is original - I suspect some is and some isn't. It would be interesting to see photos of her interiors when brand new but sadly there is not an enormous amount out there about her since she is a small, lesser-known ship.

 

Here are side-by-side photographs of the great Italian liners Conte di Savoia (left) and Rex (right). I'm curious what are your opinions as to which of these ships has the best profile?

I've always preferred CONTE DI SAVOIA, inside and out. Her profile is sleeker and more modern. The interiors of the two were vastly different... CONTE DI SAVOIA was sleek and modern inside whereas REX was very ornate and old-fashioned.

 

REX is by far the more famous ship - she won the Blue Riband, whereas CONTE DI SAVOIA didn't.

I agree, the livery is not terribly attractive... More suitable for a ferry than a classic ship. On the other hand, she looked splendid in [url=http://www.faktaomfartyg.se/bore_1960_bild_1.htm]her original livery[/url].

The company that built her, [URL="http://www.boregroup.com/"]Bore Line[/URL], still exists, but it has not operated passenger ships in almost 30 years.

[quote name='Conte Di Savoia']The concept of "flagship" seems to have largely disappeared from the cruise industry vocabulary. [I]Rotterdam/Amsterdam[/I] and [I]Queen Mary 2[/I] have been designated flagships but what other lines continue this tradition?[/quote]I think [url=http://www.phoenixreisen.de]Phoenix Reisen[/url] refers to AMADEA (ex ASUKA) as its flagship; before that it was MAXIM GORKIY for many years. And while I'm not sure the actual word (or its German equivalent) is used, EUROPA is certainly the [I]de facto[/I] flagship of the Hapag-Lloyd fleet.

Princess always considered the original ROYAL PRINCESS its flagship but I don't think it bothered to replace her in that capacity. NCL called NORWAY its flagship for many years before she was supplanted by NORWEGIAN SKY but after that Star Cruises took over and I don't think it has mentioned a flagship since. MARCO POLO was considered Orient Lines' flagship when it also had CROWN ODYSSEY (even though she was the smaller and older ship) but of course for most of its history that was a one-ship line.

The little Finnish company [URL="http://www.kristinacruises.fi/?a=etusivu"]Kristina Cruises[/URL] calls KRISTINA REGINA its flagship - not difficult since its other ship, KRISTINA BRAHE, is far smaller and only makes coastal cruises in comparison to the oceangoing KRISTINA REGINA. Now there is a ship that I think would interest a lot of people on this thread - KRISTINA REGINA was built in 1960 but looks like she could easily be even older! (Her original owner was very conservative and had definite ideas about what a ship should look like that I guess probably hadn't changed since the 1930s.) She was originally the Baltic steamer BORE but when she was rebuilt in 1987 as the cruise ship KRISTINA REGINA she got new diesels and today after 48 years in service she is still sailing under the Finnish flag with an all-Finnish crew. I saw her in St. Petersburg in 2005 - what a gloriously nostalgic little vessel! There are excellent exterior photos [url=http://www.aadhoogesteger.nl/cruiseschepen/kr270507pagina1.html]here[/url] and interior photos [url=http://www.aadhoogesteger.nl/cruiseschepen/bezkrreg270507pagina1.html]here[/url] from a call she made to Amsterdam last year... Just look at all that wood! A friend of mine recently visited her in Leith and came back with a glowing report - another friend is sailing her in the Med in October and I eagerly await his impressions. Sadly I am not sure if she will make it through the new SOLAS rules coming into effect in 2010, which will also mark her 50th birthday.

[quote name='Kapricorn']You and I were on the same [I]Rotterdam[/I] in the 1980s. There was no number attached to her name, so I have no idea which number she was.[/quote]Thanks for the photos - that is definitely an interesting cabin. I am not surprised to hear it was originally an officer's cabin as the furnishings are a little different from the typical passenger cabin on ROTTERDAM.

Anyway, this ship is the fifth ROTTERDAM and was flagship of the fleet from 1959 to 1997. She is the longest-serving HAL passenger ship and the longest-serving flagship of the fleet, and the largest passenger ship ever built in the Netherlands. She is rather unique in that she is named after the city where she was built, which was also her home port and the home city of her owner.

The current ROTTERDAM entered service in 1997 right after the last one retired and she is the sixth ship to bear the name. She has been the flagship of HAL for eleven years now and for eight years (since 2000) she has shared that honor with her sister ship AMSTERDAM.

HAL did refer to the current ship as ROTTERDAM VI while she was being built, purely to differentiate her from the previous vessel, which was still in the fleet, but a numeral has never been an official part of the name of one of HAL's ships.

[url=http://www.vdleek.nl/Rtd/6Rtd/Ships.html]Here[/url] is a page with a good brief overview of the six HAL ships called ROTTERDAM. As you can see, for most of its history HAL has had a ship in this fleet with that name, and the original ROTTERDAM was HAL's very first ship. Since then most of the ships that have been flagship of the line have been called ROTTERDAM, and evern ship called ROTTERDAM has been the flagship when she debuted. Every time the flagship has been called something other than ROTTERDAM, it is because there was already a ship in the fleet with that name that would continue operating alongside the new flagship (e.g. with STATENDAM in 1929 and NIEUW AMSTERDAM in 1938, both of which operated alongside the fourth ROTTERDAM and each other until 1940). The name also has special significance because Rotterdam is the birthplace and spiritual home of HAL (even though its head office is now in Seattle). The company's first route was from Rotterdam to New York and it remained its most prestigious service until it finally ended in 1971 after 98 years. Most of the other liner services operated by HAL over its history also originated in Rotterdam. It is the only name that has been used by HAL six times; the runner-ups are STATENDAM and MAASDAM, of which the current ships (built 1993 and 1994 respectively) are the fifth. Of the 14 ships now in the HAL fleet, only OOSTERDAM and EURODAM have names that have never been used by HAL before.

The current ROTTERDAM cruises from Rotterdam every summer so she will meet her forebear quite regularly from now on, although she has sadly already made her last call of 2008, so she the two ships won't meet until May 2009. It is also too bad that she hadn't arrived in Rotterdam by 1 July so she could have been there when the new EURODAM was named by HM Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands. (She would have been had everything gone according to schedule, but restoring an old ship is a lot of work and there were many delays.) The residents of Rotterdam are always very enthusiastic about any event related to HAL (the departure of any HAL ship always draws a crowd, even when it is not a "special occasion"), which many locals still just call "De Lijn" ("The Line") so I am sure there will be some celebration when the two ROTTERDAMs meet in Rotterdam for the first time.

The current ROTTERDAM is of course a very different ship from the previous one (as that ship was from the four that came her) but she is a fine ship and a worthy inheritor of one of the most storied names in maritime history. Inside she has some decor and public room names inspired by her predecessor and a lot of artwork, models and other memorabilia celebrating all the other ROTTERDAMs and the history of HAL in general. My favorite piece is probably a large Delft tile work that you can see on the page I linked above, which celebrates 125 years of Holland America Line (1873-1998) and depicts all six ROTTERDAMs along with the three house flags that were used by HAL in that period (the current one, the fourth, was introduced when the current AMSTERDAM joined the fleet in 2000). Even though she is a modern ship and has all the latest conveniences there are enough traditional touches to remind you that she is the flagship of one of the most historic shipping lines in the world and she has that special feeling that the Dutch call [i]gezelligheid[/i] (like the German [i]gemütlichkeit[/i]) that is usually translated as "coziness" but means so much more - the feeling of being totally comfortable and at home that so many of us feel on any HAL ship, wherever in the world.

[quote name='Druke I']I still am interested in seeing deck plans. The artist's renderings lead me to believe that there will not be a full promenade on the "boat deck", but an abbreviated area much like that on Deck 5 of Nautica. Too bad - I do like full promenade decks.[/quote]I agree. This is one thing I would have liked to see but I never really held out much hope for it, to be honest. I do not think it is really an effective use of space these days as most people just do not use these areas on most ships with lots of balconies.

[quote name='Druke I']The descriptions of the cabins on the Cruise Critic "sticky" do make the cabins and bathrooms sound better than the current Oceania ships, and you know I am a fan of Oceania.[/quote]They will be [i]way[/i] better. The number one complaint with the current ships is small cabins and bathrooms. Especially the bathrooms, which are really rather poor. I think this will be the most notable difference.

The standard balcony cabin on the new ships will be similar in size and features to a "penthouse" (which is really an over-the-top name for what is just a largish cabin) on the current ships, and the bathroom will be [i]better[/i].

The standard cabins will be the best ever on a "premium" cruise ship and better than what was expected of a "luxury" ship quite recently. Indeed, they will arguably be better than the cabins on CRYSTAL SERENITY.

[quote name='Druke I']By-the-by, did you see the new "sticky" on the Oceania Forum page? Finally, some details on Oceania's new builds - but alas no deck plans yet.[/quote]The new ships will have a layout similar to the existing ones. Of course, the ships are much bigger and there will be lots of new features but the basic "shape" is the similar.

Essentially, all the favorites from the current ships are going to be there, along with new features and a lot more space all around.

[quote name='Saga Ruby']Tell me something - how will we resolve the "shower curtain adhering to wet skin" problem? Do you think FDR and his compadres have fixed that most annoying problem?[/quote]The standard bathrooms will have a shower stall with a glass door, and a separate tub. See [url=http://maritimematters.blogspot.com/2008/07/insignia-venice-to-barcelona-blog-part.html]here[/url] for mock-up photos... You can just make out the shower door in the standard bathroom photo.

The tub would be of no use to me but I do much prefer shower doors to shower curtains. I have been on some ships where the shower is large enough that the curtain doesn't intrude but I have also been in plenty of showers where the curtain and I have become very intimate.

When QE2's bathrooms were renovated in the 1990s the shower curtains were replaced with doors in the shower-only bathrooms, something I really appreciate especially as those are [i]tiny[/i] showers.

This past January my shower door did not move as smoothly as it normally would. Evidently something really was wrong as on a particularly rough day I returned to find it had fallen off! (These are not sliding doors, they are on a sort of scissors-type mechanism and have a gasket around them to keep the steam from the shower from escaping into the bathroom.) The cabin steward had it repaired before I could even ask him but it was rather amusing.

The oddest shower I have ever been in was at the Sheraton in Paris-CDG 2. This was built in, I guess, the 1990s and must have been very high-tech when new but certain elements got a dated very quickly, as faddish things often do. The bathroom was an enormous marble-lined space (I think I've had cabins on ships that are smaller) with a tub and a separate shower. This was round and had a very complicated two-part glass door that, as it was no longer new, leaked a bit. The shower itself was raised maybe six inches off the floor of the bathroom and it faced the mirrored wall above the vanity. The result is that one walked into the shower, switched on the tap, turned around and was immediately confronted with a full-length view of one's nude self. I have never watched myself showering before and frankly it was rather uncomfortable - I was very happy when the glass enclosure got steamed up after a minute!

[quote name='Saga Ruby']You are probably so busy with your research materials that you must not have realized that my query was addressed directly to Conte. As I said, I was looking for his personal experiences on those ships.[/quote]I didn't have any research materials out.

This is a public discussion forum. If you wish to carry on a private conversation, you might consider doing it privately.

DONAUPRINZESSIN was Peter Deilmann's first river cruise ship. She was sold a couple of years ago. I have no idea where she is now. In the US she was marketed as DANUBE PRINCESS.

I don't know what SARDEGNA is, other than that it means "Sardinia" in Italian.

[quote name='franu']"In August they announced that [I][B]Marco Polo[/B][/I] would concentrate on the Western Med in summer 1997, but that they would maintain their market presence in Greece by chartering in the Greek-flagged [I][B]M/V Ocean Majesty[/B][/I] (500 passengers) from May through October 1997."[/quote]The real reason for this was that the Greek unions were not very happy about MARCO POLO operating from Piraeus to Greek ports. Traditionally the Greek unions, shipowners and state worked together to keep out foreign competition.

Somehow Orient Lines managed to get around the then-strict Greek cabotage laws, but the unions would not have it and picketed her when she called in Piraeus. My grandparents took a cruise from Istanbul to Piraeus in MARCO POLO in 1995 or 1996 and this was their experience.

Today the Greek cabotage laws have had to be harmonized with EU law, which means they can't discriminate against any EU-flag ships. Portugal maintains a low-tax register in Madeira, which is part of the EU, and it has become a very popular EU flag of convenience, used by a lot of Greek shipowners.

[quote name='Saga Ruby']Okay, now I get it. Orient Lines will return but [I]Marco Polo [/I]stays with Transocean. Whew![/quote]Exactly. Orient Lines ≠ MARCO POLO, necessarily, though Orient and MP are strongly associated with each other since MP was with Orient for its entire history until now.

Orient Lines also had CROWN ODYSSEY (now BALMORAL) for a while, and chartered... Er... A Greek ship for Greek Isles cruises, but I can't remember which at the moment!

[i]Edit: I'm thinking the Greek ship was OCEAN MAJESTY, but I'm not positive.[/i]

It would be great to see MARCO POLO back with Orient Lines but as she has just started a five-year charter, that is not too likely... Especially as the company chartering her is about to go from three ships to two (including her).

If I had to guess, I would say Orient Lines' first ship will be COSTA MARINA.

If I die and go to hell, it will surely be a shopping mall.

I feel exactly the same way. Horrible places.

Doug, we have antithetical views on the same information. I was trying to make light of what I consider serious problems on Clipper Pacific. I didn't mean to upset you.

Oh, I'm not upset. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. It's just that we really have very little information to go on, and some of what was reported by the Coast Guard and consequently the press was totally false, which gives me pause about the rest of it.

 

It is quite possible that the ship does have serious problems. Well, the hole is a potentially serious problem, but only if it wasn't repaired, as the ship's operator could hardly help it coming in the first place, and contrary to the USCG press statement, knew it was there and went so far to tell the authorities about it. The other problems could be anything from serious to totally inconsequential. The lack of detail makes it impossible to know whether ship had problems or not.

 

I just don't want to jump to any conclusions.

 

Yes, shopping is so yesterday. It's the Internet and UPS for me!

Now that we can agree on! And to think people actually go shopping for fun! To me it is a chore. Of course, as a man I am not supposed to like shopping according to the prevailing gender stereotypes.

No one told me. I slipped on a premise and sprawled to a conclusion. I ran Travel Dynamics on the Web and the owners of that booking agency, which seemed to own the ships, are Greek-Americans.

Yes, Travel Dynamics International might give you the impression that it owns ships, but it doesn't own. It's not a cruise line in the traditional sense, it's an office in New York that sells cruises on ships it charters.

 

How do the Danes decide which Masters are assigned to their ships? I do not equate Danish ownership to a particular nationality of crew on their Bridge. However, thanks for the research on the actual owners of this particular line.

I don't believe ISP's bridge officers are any particular nationality. It's a mix, as is commonly the case these days.

 

I see that ISP was managing Clipper Pacific, ex Song of Norway, which was recently held in New York with a leaking hull and other safety related issues. I think she was under charter at the time but still, one has to wonder what was going on with her maintenance.

She is owned by Clipper Group and managed and operated by ISP.

 

All Clipper Group/ISP ships are on charter.

 

Maintenance? What maintenance? Evidently the owners' attitude was to tie her up at the dock and see if she sank in place. If her keel didn't touch ground, then off she was sent to the next port. Gives a whole new meaning to the word "gamblers."

I would not go that far.

 

In fact, aside from the hole, which I will get to in a minute, I don't know exactly what was wrong. Yes, we have a number of deficiencies and generalizations like "problems with lifeboats" but that could mean the lettering on the lifeboats is the wrong size or it could mean the lifeboats don't float.

 

I am very wary of jumping to conclusions based on inspections like this. That is not to say that they aren't useful, but they're also far from perfect, and the inconsistency is somewhat alarming The same ship that gets zero deficiencies noted one day can get 20 noted the next day. I'm not exaggerating... 18 June 2003, REGAL EMPRESS was inspected in Miami and no deficiencies were noted. 19 June 2003, same ship was inspected in Port Everglades and 20 deficiencies, 11 of which were grounds for detention, were noted and she was detained for five days. 11 deficiencies that were grounds for detention cannot possibly have materialized overnight, so obviously one inspector was wrong.

 

In this case we are talking about a newly acquired ship on her first voyage after a major refit on her first call in the US in more than five years. In those circumstances it is pretty easy to rack up a lot of minor deficiencies. I don't know if that's what happened, but it is quite possible. With just minimal information, none of us is in any position to judge whether the ship was being operated in an unsafe manner. I am inclined against condemning ISP because of one inspection on one ship... We have all had a bad day sometimes.

 

As for the hole, the ship developed a small hole while she was en route from Greenland the US. The hole was reported to the US authorities before the ship arrived in port. The US Coast Guard proceeded to issue a press release saying that its inspection "revealed a hole", which was patently false and of course was picked up by the press and resulted in a totally false impression of the actual events. Later press releases dropped that line, but no retraction, correction or apology was ever issued... Very bad form on the part of the USCG.

Ruby - Who told you CORINTHIAN II is owned by two Greek-Americans?

 

She is owned by Clipper Group, a Danish company, and managed by ISP, a Miami company owned by Clipper and its Danish CEO, Niels-Erik Lund.

 

She would probably not be my first choice for an Antarctic cruise as I think there are other ships that are better suited to this region (e.g. the Lindblad ships) but she is definitely not Greek (not that I would have a problem with her if she were).

I believe it was the Tivoli Restaurant. I had a fabulous meal up there as we decided as a table to book for there one evening...and no extra supplement either!

Yes, it was Tivoli. It was added to VISTAFJORD in the big 1994 refit in which Cunard finally managed to completely ruin her interior decor, the same year it finally accomplished the same on QE2 after 25 years of valiant effort. ;) (OK, neither ship was actually bad, but especially in VISTAFJORD's case, Cunard managed to eradicate nearly all traces of the original decor. On QE2, there are still bits left if you look closely...)

 

The space was previously the upper level of the nightclub, Club Viking, later (as CARONIA) the Picadilly Club and now PreView. The whole space itself, a rather ungainly addition to her after decks, was added in 1983 after Cunard bought the ship. It was supposed to be modeled on a similar space on CUNARD COUNTESS and CUNARD PRINCESS - leave it to the dreadful Trafalgar House (then-owner of Cunard) to attempt to modify one of the finest ships in the world to "match" those decidedly ordinary vessels! :rolleyes:

 

The original Club Viking was much further forward, in an area occupied by cabins now, and above it was a sports deck that was replaced by the area aft of the funnel, some of which is now occupied by the ugly gym Saga added (the only thing Saga has done to the ship that I don't like).

The View was the ship's Italian restaurant when she was CARONIA.

 

Glad you enjoyed your cruise.