MATHA531

Try using it in South Africa. As often as not, I have to PIN. If accepted, the machine then prints a slip that I must sign to complete the transaction.

 

I actually don't care what I am asked to do so long as I can pay. But I do take some grim satisfaction in reading the stories about the global migration of point-of-sale credit card fraud to a certain part of the western hemisphere.

Hm...are you referring to the good old USA by any chance? Actually although the figures for pos fraud in the USA seem very high, they only amount to about 12¢ for every $100 of revenue generated by the banks' plastic payment card operations. A trade off I would make every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Just the cost of doing business. Couple that with zero liability for consumers because of both US law and competitive pressures and the banks are not under overwhelming pressure to push chip and pin if, and it's a big if, their surveys are correct and most Americans prefer signature verification no matter how distasteful that is to others.

Just to finish my thoughts on this, UNFCU is not my favorite card to use on trips outside the USA as they impose a 1% foreign transaction fee which is 1% higher than it should be and their rewards program is not as good as it should be. I prefer to use Bank of America travel rewards which has no annual fee, no foreign transaction fee even though it is more inconvenient to use at self service machines as I explained above. However, if having a "pure" chip and pin ard is important to you and you want to eat 1% extra on every foreign transaction and you are resident in the USA, as it stands today UNFCU is the only game in town.

When you write UNFCU are you referring to Navy Federal Credit Union card? The front of our card reads NFCU? If you're saying that one will work as a bona fide chip and PIN, we may want to switch to using that as our primary card. Up til now, the card we've been using -- the card that produced the restaurant anecdote -- was our PFCU (Pentagon Federal Credit Union) card.

UNFCU stands for United Nations Federal Credit Union; a financial institution set up in New York for employees of Uthe nited Nations. Non UN employees can join this fcu and take advantage of its services by joining an organization set up to support USA participation in the United Nations. Information is available on their web site. I have the card and when I get frustrated with the intransigence of some of the British chain which are introducing self service in many of their stores and eliminating some clerks at tills (like for example Tesco, Sainsbury, Boots), if you use a US chip and signature preferred card, rather than completing the transaction after inserting your card in the chip reader, a message flashes to seek assistance. Sometimes assistance arrives in seconds; other times you are left to stand there until somebody gets off his or her rear end to come over, enter his or her code, have a receipt printed, even for a miniscule charge, have you sign it, never look at it to compare signatures, put it in his or her pocket and only then is the transaction completed. We can argue from now till the chickens come home to roost hos much this system contributes to security (the unfortunate truth is not in the slightest). In the USA, like it or not, we have long since passed that stage and in those situations, there is a signature pad to sign attached to the terminal, nobody checks signatures especially for small purchases and these terminals can be a real times saver. I wish in other places the waste of time in checking signatures at least for small purchases would become universa' however I have been unable to determine if there is a prohibition of this practice on merchant agreements outside the USA or somebody feels a 17 year old clerk holding down a summer job at Boots will really not complete a transaction after chcking a signature. We can argue this all we want. In my opinion, and evidently in the opinion of visa, mc, amex and most American retailers, the efficiency of completing small transactions quickly outweighs security considerations but everybody is entitled to their opinion on this.

Thank you SO much for that explanation.

 

One thing that wasn't clear from what you wrote (at least to me :) ): if you have one of these American chip and pin cards (that really isn't true chip and pin), like the Andrews FCU card, and you are in Europe at an unattended machine, say the gas pump in your example, where obviously the "signature" cvm won't work, WILL the machine ask for your pin?

 

My AFCU card supposedly does have a pin; so will that unattended machine ask me for it, or just stop when it's unable to work with signature verification?

Thank you at least for reading what I wrote and not starting with the assumption I was wrong. The answer to your question is that up till now under the circumstances you described, the Andrews FCU card would function as a chip and pin card and many were successful using it that way. Of course, if we were to believe visa (and mc), under these circumstances since the 01 July 2015 deadline has passed, all American cards with the emv chip should work either with pin verification or no verification at all. Only time will tell what will actually happen now; I can't guarantee it one way or another.

Incidentally, watch out for customer service reps (csr's) of many banks telling you that if you use a pin on their cards (Chase is an example) to complete a transaction it will automatically go through as a cash advance. Nothing could be further from the truth although Chase cards do not use pin verification despite the fact they promised originally to do so.

Again this information is accuate as of today. Perhaps some brave American financial institution will in the near future buck the trend but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting.

The Amsterdam airport, of course, sits right on top of the main train line between Amsterday and Roterdam Centraal. Buy your ticket, trains run every 15 minutes. At Rotterdam airport, my suggestion is an easy cab ride, not terrible expensive (perhaps 20 euro) or the Roterdam Centraal station sits right on top of the new Rotterdam metro...just check the map. The last stop on the iine you can catch at Roterdam central station is 3 stops away, one block from the pier terminal. A literal piece of cake.

I tried to explain this in another thread, got flamed by some who told me I was wrong so I gave up trying to reason with people. Here goes one more time because it is important.

Cards with emv chips have impregnated on the chip (best term I could think of) a list of possible card verification methods (cvm's), separate ones for purchases and advances. The terminal goes down the list till it finds one that meshes with it. For reasons not altogether satisfactory to me and to many others, the American banks have decided for us that the vast majority of people prefer signatures to pins. So signature is the first listed cvm on almost every American emv compliant card being issued for purchases. Read that again and understand its significance. Almost every American card being issued with an emv chip's first verification method is signature for purchases. Since almost every pos (point of sale) terminal recognizes signature transaction, no matter what your bank tries to tell you or some know nothings in all due respect) with one or two exceptions American emv chip cards will default to signature including cards issued by Andrews FCU which is touted as a "true" chip and pin card. Including cards issued by Barclay Bank USA which at least in its literature describes its card as signature preferred with pin capability (more on this in a few sentences).

As it stands today, 10 July 2015, the only American financial institution issuing what would be characterized as a "true" chip and pin card, thus a card with pin preference ahead of signature preference is UNFCU. This card will function in European pos terminals as chip and pin but it has a 1% foreign transaction fee and a not very good rewards program. That's it. Looking for another "true" pin preference card issued by a USA financial institution is a waste of your time, they just don't exist.

Visa USA has been pa;rticularly adamant that this is what Americans prefer. Buy it or not if you want but this is what has been decided. Now many of these cards if inserted in a terminal that doesn't support signature, say an automated French gasoline pump on a Sunday afternoon in rural France with no attendant present can operate as a chip and pin card, will ask for your pin. Visa has been trying to outlaw this practice and is insistent that as of 01 July 2015, terminals that reject emv compliant cards on the basis of not having pin as part of the cvm's will be illeagal. Whether this will be enforced is another story but such terminals as of today are, in theory, in violation of visa (and mc) regs and all terminals must (according to visa) accept any valid visa card even if it means no cvm. Some machines have already converted, say many of the sncf machines in France and today accept American chip cards lacking pins. However if you come across a machine in France and elsewhere that doesn't, what are you to do? Kick the machine and tell it visa says you have to accept the card?

Let me repeat, this is the way it is. This is not necessarily the way I and others want it. However, in reality, the added security is provided by the chip. I would agree with anybody that checking signatures is silly as a security verification method although in the USA, more and more merchants well within their merchant agreements no longer bother even having clients sign for transactions less than $50 and hardly anybody in the USA checks signatures on cards.

Be aware that as of now, the only USA merchant that has energized its emv terminals is Walmart. To test whether your American issued emv chipped card is a "true" chip and pin card, go to a Walmart. Buy a chocolate bar and check out. You will find that with the exception of the UNFCU card, no signature will be required or collected nor will a pin be requested. If you use the UNFCU card, it will always ask for a pin.

Now once again, please don't shoot the messenger. I am not saying this is the way it should be, this is the way it is. It is futile to look for an American issued credit card except for UNFCU which will function as a "true" chip and pin card. They just don't exist.

One place where pickpockets hang out is near signs that say beware of pickpockets. Why so I hear you cry. Well human nature is such that when many see that kind of sign, the inclination is to check where one's wallet it. Guess what? You just gave away where your wallet is!

Personally, I use credit cards for everything everywhere I travel for every purchase large or small. This past June I arrived in Europe with €50, £20 and about $50 US both left over from previous trips and the US money my carry around money I left. Not once in a three week period did I spend any cash and came home with the same bank notes still neatly folded in my wallet. Only way to travel in the 21st century.

Is there not at least a fourth such country? ;)

Do you mean I omitted the USA? Suppose I did...

I will say this...the car service is not a bad idea for £35 but just as a mention, getting to Victoria from Heathrow via the tube is very simple...what you have to do after reaching Victoria may be another matter.

To get to Victoria via tube from Heathrow, follow the signs to the underground. Take the first train headed to central London, it will be the Picadilly line (dark navy blue on the maps) most likely headed to Cockfosters (it doesn't really matter which Heathrow terminal you are arriving at). At Hammersmith, get off the train and walk across the platform (no stairs to climb) and take the first district line train that arrives (green on the maps) which will go to Victoria. At Victoria there will be a few steps to go up and from there it might be a simple walk; I don't know where the hotel is. Will save you money but you may not feel it is worth it. Up to you but no big deal.

Ain't that what I said? ;)

"In most cases there's an attendant, who can process a non-PIN card".

 

JB :)

But where the problem comes in is when you stand there for four o five minutes waiting for an attendant to come over to do his thing.

Do you have source for this assertion? It sounds (although it is often difficult to decipher your somewhat unique debating style....) that you are describing systems such as VEPS? My reading of both Visa and MasterCard merchant agreements are that those sort of arrangements are exceptions, not the rule. The global standard in both (or certainly the copies I have) is that signatures MUST be compared.

Indeed that's what my question is. I understand different strokes for different folks and that regs in the USA might be different from elsewhere (sometimes there are different rules in the US in different states). As I simply said, it is silly to check signatures for small purchases but if it's required I am not saying ignore the regulations. The merchant agreements in the USA do allow merchants to skip even collecting signatures for small purchases and as noted, that is almost the norm in the USA today. Efficiency over security? Perhaps but as I said, I don't think checking signatures if a very effective deterrent to credit card fraud. You and others might disagree and I would never even think of criticizing a contrary opinion.

Yes, Matha, much of my missive was about the US system & I was indeed shooting the messenger ;)

But it was also tempered by your apparent belittling of chip-and-PIN and the experiences of others.

 

Complicated, innit? :D

 

But the important info in this thread is that US cards with no card-holder's PIN code are accepted at manned outlets in Europe, barring rare examples such as the occasional isolated back-of-beyond French gas station.

But they are unlikely to be usable in un-manned machines such as your supermarket self-checkout example or, more importantly, travel ticket machines or left-luggage lockers. In most cases there's an attendant, who can process a non-PIN card.

Or you can use cash.

Nothing insurmountable

And perhaps that's how we should all have left it. ;)

 

JB :)

Actually jb they do work at supermarket self serve checkouts; it's just you have to wait for somebody to come over, enter his or her code, have a receipt printed and signed and never looked at to finish the transaction.

Two other quickies. First fewer and fewer kiosks are rejecting non pin cards out of hand in lines with new regulations effective 01 July 2015 from visa/mc and amex. Only time will tell how effective these regs end up being.

Secondly during my recent trip to the UK, I did notice a fall off in the number of clerks who check signatures. More often than not, I insert a signature card, the terminal says remove card and the card goes back in my wallet. In the past, I was almost always asked by the clerk to see the card and check the signature. On this trip, almost all the time the clerk did not bother.

Look my question about signatures remain. In the USA, the merchant agreements allow merchants to forego signatures for small purchases and it increases the efficiency of paying for goods. What I don't know, I admit, is whether UK merchant agreements have the same provisions. In my opinion, and it's onlhy my opinion and who am I to have an opinion, in terms of fraud prevention signature verification is next to useless and silly for small purchases. But if those are the rules, then merchants do have to follow them.

531

[QUOTE=MATHA531;47038331]Watchill...I absolutely agree with you. The Barclaycard with emv chip will work as a chip and pin card at places like railroad kiosks. I never said they don't. Are you telling us that your card never asks for a signature say if you use it at Boots or Sainsbury? What you are saying does back up what I said, Barclays Bank USA issues cards whose number 1 card verification method is signature. If signature fails, it goes on to the next one on the list which indeed is pin. And without anger or anything like that, I'll tell you what to settle a nickel wager (my maximum wager amount btw). What are your experiences (I assume you are in the USA) in using the card at Walmart? Does it ask for a pin?

 

Without trying to be too technical because I am not a geek. All emv compliant cards, have a list of card verification methods (cvm's) written into the chip. Many on Flyer Talk have chip readers and use an app called Card Peak I believe to decipher the results. They can list the order of the cvm's on any particular card. Almost universally, cards issued in the USA today have as their number 1 cvm signature. If the card is used in a pos terminal which recognizes signature which almost all do everywhere, that's the end of the game. A message will flash signature required, usually a slip will print for the customer to sign although more so in the USA signatures are collected electronically on the screens not as much in Europe although there are some, the merchant is supposed to compare the signature on the slip or screen with the signature on the card and press a button to complete the transaction. What I've said, that is usually the way it happens. As of now almost universally in the USA with the exception of Walmart although some others are beginning to accept emv cards as signature cards. I am sure most will agree with me that this is next to useless and pin is more secure but this is the way the banks have implemented emv here. I am not for one second claiming otherwise.

 

If signature fails, say at a kiosk in picking up railroad tickets, the next item on the cvm list on many cards in offline pin; the system used in Europe. I never said the cards issued by Barclays USA do not have this capability.

 

The problem with this until recently was there were a growing number of merchants who when the signature required message flashed refused to complete the transaction under the misguided notion their liability was increased if a pin wasn't used and many Americans who travel a lot were running into more and more trouble which besides the security issue was one of the reasons that helped some of the American banks get off their rear ends and begin implementing emv. I remember at that time when I read on the Flyer Talk forum that Andrews FCU was now issuing chip and pin cards and hurried to get one (as did many others). We were almost shocked when we found out that the card would not function as chip and pin at most pos terminals but chip and signature. Other US banks began offering what they called chip and pin cards but in reality they were primary chip and signature with pin capabilities. We soon discovered what the rationale was which was illustrated in the USAA document I posted above i.e. it was claimed that since Americans carry more cards than most others (probably true; I have about 9 or 10 accounts all with chips and all with different pins for use if signature fails in a kiosk or in some cases no pin at all). Again, I am not defending this, I'm just reporting this. Probably the real reason the networks in the USA have not pushed pins is the usual one i.e. money. Who should pay for the new terminals needed to process emv cards? Pins introduce an additional cost. What about restaurants? One of the major sources of the theft of credit card information to produce counterfeit magnetic strip cards occurs at restaurants. Many of us feel a restaurant such as Denny's where you get a bill and pay at the cashier is kind of low class (I called that the Denny's way). At most restaurants, of course, the waiter brings a bill, you hand over your card, the waiter takes it to some back room where heaven only knows what can happen, the waiter brings back the slip for you to sign and optionally add a tip. I have begun to insist when this happens that I go with the waiter to the back room and that sometimes embarrasses by dining companion (despite the fact that in the USA we have zero liability for fraud under American law and because of competitive pressures). Now of course the solution to the problem are the portable wireless terminals so common outside the USA. Most restaurants in the USA do not want to spring for them. Why not? Of course the cost and that will be another impediment to using pins in the USA.

 

Look. I try to add humor to my posts which sometimes some may interpret as sarcasm. I don't understand the anger being expressed by some to my posts which are intended to be helpful and also answer such ridiculous statements I see not only here but on other forums regarding this issue. If you want a pin preferred emv copliant credit card, there are very few options available from USA banks as of today. Some feel this is just a transition step to get people used to inserting their cards rather than swiping and that pins will follow. Perhaps. Or perhaps the American financial sector is waiting for something else to come along as I presume you guys criticizing me understand emv does nothing about online fraud and the expectation that once the easy counterfeiting of magnetic strip USA cards is brought under control, fraud will shift there. Credit card fraud is today's version of armed bank robbery during the depression in America only no guns are used.

 

The vast majority of Americans couldn't care less as most don't travel. Many will find it traumatic to have to insert their new credit cards rather than to swipe them; trust me I see that at Walmart all the time. Of course in theory if you have an emv card, the pos terminal is not supposed to recognize the magnetic strip if the terminal is emv compliant. Walmart had to override that for a good part of the holiday season, so difficult it was to get people used to inserting their cards.

 

Now this is a summary of the 816 page and growing by the day Flyer Talk forum. Yes it is long and wordy but I don't know how to report the facts. But, yes this is the way I live today in the 21st century. I rarely spend cash for anything I buy no matter how large or small no matter at home or abroad. I just spent 3 weeks in Europe and not once did I spend cash for anything. I arrived in Europe with $50 US, £20 and €30 and that cash never left my wallet.

 

I'm sorry if what I'm saying ruffles some feathers but I just don't understand the anger being directed at me in trying to explain just what is going on. Now if anything I have said is false; if anybody has a true pin preferred emv card available to Americans with no annual fee, no foreign transaction fee and a decent rewards program, I would love to hear as that is the card I'm still looking for.

 

Let the flaming begin.

First, I have never been in a Walmart, so I cannot comment on using my Barclaycard there.

Second, I used it without signature at Kensington Palace gift shop and snack bar. I sued the card at check out in both Sainsbury's and Waitrose - again, I inserted the card into the CC slot and it asked for my PIN which I entered. At each restaurant we stopped in, the server came to the table with a hand held device, I inserted my card and then entered my PIN - nobody ever walked away from the table with my card. No slips came out of the hand held for me to sign.

Darcy

Which Barclaycard do you have? I want to apply for it if (and I'm doubting you) what you say is true!

m531

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." John Donne

 

Personal experience trumps what someone had read or heard.

 

John Bull, you are so correct. Kiwimum and I have successfully used US issued C & P credit cards abroad with success. Barclay's issues a variety of cards, and the one I have permits me to use it at POS without interacting with a sales clerk. I've used the card to pick up rail tickets at a kiosk when arriving in Amsterdam - cheaper than purchasing tickets from an agent. Also purchased Swiss Rail passes in Zurich at a kiosk using my PIN.

 

When I applied for this particular credit card, I must have asked the folks at Barclay's a half dozen times to clarify the C & P process and said I would cancel in a heart beat if it didn't work as promised...and saved an annual fee after one year of use. I have had the card for a few years, and receive numerous consumer and travel perks that mitigate the fee.

 

Oh, John Bull - Thanks for your suggestion to avoid the park & ride near Salisbury and go directly to Mill Stream Approach. There was ample parking, and after a tour of the Cathedral, and pub lunch, we got a 2 hour parking refund for a small purchase at Sainsbury's.

 

Darcy

Watchill...I absolutely agree with you. The Barclaycard with emv chip will work as a chip and pin card at places like railroad kiosks. I never said they don't. Are you telling us that your card never asks for a signature say if you use it at Boots or Sainsbury? What you are saying does back up what I said, Barclays Bank USA issues cards whose number 1 card verification method is signature. If signature fails, it goes on to the next one on the list which indeed is pin. And without anger or anything like that, I'll tell you what to settle a nickel wager (my maximum wager amount btw). What are your experiences (I assume you are in the USA) in using the card at Walmart? Does it ask for a pin?

Without trying to be too technical because I am not a geek. All emv compliant cards, have a list of card verification methods (cvm's) written into the chip. Many on Flyer Talk have chip readers and use an app called Card Peak I believe to decipher the results. They can list the order of the cvm's on any particular card. Almost universally, cards issued in the USA today have as their number 1 cvm signature. If the card is used in a pos terminal which recognizes signature which almost all do everywhere, that's the end of the game. A message will flash signature required, usually a slip will print for the customer to sign although more so in the USA signatures are collected electronically on the screens not as much in Europe although there are some, the merchant is supposed to compare the signature on the slip or screen with the signature on the card and press a button to complete the transaction. What I've said, that is usually the way it happens. As of now almost universally in the USA with the exception of Walmart although some others are beginning to accept emv cards as signature cards. I am sure most will agree with me that this is next to useless and pin is more secure but this is the way the banks have implemented emv here. I am not for one second claiming otherwise.

If signature fails, say at a kiosk in picking up railroad tickets, the next item on the cvm list on many cards in offline pin; the system used in Europe. I never said the cards issued by Barclays USA do not have this capability.

The problem with this until recently was there were a growing number of merchants who when the signature required message flashed refused to complete the transaction under the misguided notion their liability was increased if a pin wasn't used and many Americans who travel a lot were running into more and more trouble which besides the security issue was one of the reasons that helped some of the American banks get off their rear ends and begin implementing emv. I remember at that time when I read on the Flyer Talk forum that Andrews FCU was now issuing chip and pin cards and hurried to get one (as did many others). We were almost shocked when we found out that the card would not function as chip and pin at most pos terminals but chip and signature. Other US banks began offering what they called chip and pin cards but in reality they were primary chip and signature with pin capabilities. We soon discovered what the rationale was which was illustrated in the USAA document I posted above i.e. it was claimed that since Americans carry more cards than most others (probably true; I have about 9 or 10 accounts all with chips and all with different pins for use if signature fails in a kiosk or in some cases no pin at all). Again, I am not defending this, I'm just reporting this. Probably the real reason the networks in the USA have not pushed pins is the usual one i.e. money. Who should pay for the new terminals needed to process emv cards? Pins introduce an additional cost. What about restaurants? One of the major sources of the theft of credit card information to produce counterfeit magnetic strip cards occurs at restaurants. Many of us feel a restaurant such as Denny's where you get a bill and pay at the cashier is kind of low class (I called that the Denny's way). At most restaurants, of course, the waiter brings a bill, you hand over your card, the waiter takes it to some back room where heaven only knows what can happen, the waiter brings back the slip for you to sign and optionally add a tip. I have begun to insist when this happens that I go with the waiter to the back room and that sometimes embarrasses by dining companion (despite the fact that in the USA we have zero liability for fraud under American law and because of competitive pressures). Now of course the solution to the problem are the portable wireless terminals so common outside the USA. Most restaurants in the USA do not want to spring for them. Why not? Of course the cost and that will be another impediment to using pins in the USA.

Look. I try to add humor to my posts which sometimes some may interpret as sarcasm. I don't understand the anger being expressed by some to my posts which are intended to be helpful and also answer such ridiculous statements I see not only here but on other forums regarding this issue. If you want a pin preferred emv copliant credit card, there are very few options available from USA banks as of today. Some feel this is just a transition step to get people used to inserting their cards rather than swiping and that pins will follow. Perhaps. Or perhaps the American financial sector is waiting for something else to come along as I presume you guys criticizing me understand emv does nothing about online fraud and the expectation that once the easy counterfeiting of magnetic strip USA cards is brought under control, fraud will shift there. Credit card fraud is today's version of armed bank robbery during the depression in America only no guns are used.

The vast majority of Americans couldn't care less as most don't travel. Many will find it traumatic to have to insert their new credit cards rather than to swipe them; trust me I see that at Walmart all the time. Of course in theory if you have an emv card, the pos terminal is not supposed to recognize the magnetic strip if the terminal is emv compliant. Walmart had to override that for a good part of the holiday season, so difficult it was to get people used to inserting their cards.

Now this is a summary of the 816 page and growing by the day Flyer Talk forum. Yes it is long and wordy but I don't know how to report the facts. But, yes this is the way I live today in the 21st century. I rarely spend cash for anything I buy no matter how large or small no matter at home or abroad. I just spent 3 weeks in Europe and not once did I spend cash for anything. I arrived in Europe with $50 US, £20 and €30 and that cash never left my wallet.

I'm sorry if what I'm saying ruffles some feathers but I just don't understand the anger being directed at me in trying to explain just what is going on. Now if anything I have said is false; if anybody has a true pin preferred emv card available to Americans with no annual fee, no foreign transaction fee and a decent rewards program, I would love to hear as that is the card I'm still looking for.

Let the flaming begin.

"Primarily PIN-preferred", and "sig-preferred" are phrases I've never come across.

 

Suffice it to say that I have seen on both Cruise Critic and TripAdvisor, threads where American folk have been issued with chip&PIN (yes, active & working PIN) cards for foreign travel.

But I'm not about to waste hours trawling for examples just to make you change your diet ;), you'll have to take my word for it. Though you probably won't, since you don't seem able to accept that kiwimum and WatchHill have used US-issued cards as chip&PIN in Europe - even though on another thread you have yourself conceded that when abroad some US chip & sig cards can be prompted to use a PIN rather than a sig.

 

JB :)

ex

You can tell me I'm wrong from now until the chickens come home to roost. I have had that card as well as the USAA card whose statement regarding chip and signature I have put on the board. I am not trying to defend this. Visa USA has been the driving force behind this. I was in Europe earlier in the month with several different cards including one from USAA. The only card that asked for a pin, each time I used it, was UNFCU. You don't want to take my word for it, that is your prerogative. Again, I refer you to the flyer talk forum where there is an 816 page thread on emv cards in the USA. Many of the people on that forum are screaming bloody murder that they want pins; as it stands now, for the most part they are not going to get them on USA issued cards. The whole world there can't be wrong but you're welcome to believe whatever you want to believe. When the 01 October deadline rolls around in the USA there will be very few chip and pin cards but plenty of chip and signature cards. As part of this deal, visa is pushing the abolition of cvm's at unpersonneled kiosks. I am not saying how effective this will ultimately be.

Now again, you are screaming at the messenger. I would have preferred pins. But before the USA finally decided to go with emv, Americans were increasingly running into situations where merchants, illegally according to the card networks, refused to process their cards. Over the past two years, more and more Americans have cards with the emv chip but again whether you wish to believe me or not or the 816 pages on flyer talk, the vast majority of these cards have decided to use signatures as the primary card verification method. Just above, is the rationale from USAA as to why they decided to go with signature preference. The document is less than two months old.

Is pin more secure than signature? Of course it is. I am not for one second disputing that. But this is the deck we in America have been dealt and it is simple in line with the way things are done in America where whatever the rest of the world does, the Americans will do it differently (See the stupidity of continuing with the imperial system of measurements, Farenheit thermometer, different frequencies for gsm phones, an expensive but incompetent medical system which is only good for the insurance companies, a failure to embrace chip and pin yada yada yada. I'm sorry you're angry at me trying to explain what is going on but I would not write it if I wasn't sure as to what I am writing. Now you're welcome to believe whomever you want and if you don't want to take the time to look at the thread on flyer talk, I can't say I blame you. But I really do know what I'm talking about since as I've said, I've been looking for a "true" chip and pin card with no foreign transaction fee and a decent rewards program for the past 2 years. I haven't found one yet. Sincerely.

It's not true that checking signatures provides no security. Maybe not in America, but in the UK, if the signature on the card bears no resemblance to the signature on the bill, the card company won't honour the payment.

With the number of counterfeit cards floating around, that might be very hard to prove. I never sign a sales slip the way I signed my card and have never had a clerk say boo.

Oh dear, Matha, you are digging yourself into a deeper and deeper hole. :D

 

Rather than clarifying the situation you're muddying it.

 

You've decried the security value of chip-and-PIN and exaggerated the rigmarole of using PINs. Then after making wrong assumptions about WatchHill's post you challenged WatchHill's experience even after WatchHill had re-confirmed.

Yet you claim to have "superior knowledge" on the subject.

Sorry, but methinks not.

 

I'm much more inclined to take the word of someone who's been there/done that, such as WatchHill.

And other American CC members on a number of related threads who've used chip-and-PIN cards, issued by their US banks, on trips to Europe. So I don't know why you believe only one obscure US bank issues chip-and-PIN

 

You say that "The only time that chip&PIN really matters is if the actual card is lost or stolen and the data shows this is a very minor problem"

???????

The data shows that it involves the minor matter of tens of thousands of fraudulent transactions and billions of dollars on POS purchases. You rate that as minor????

Yes, fraud in distance-selling such as e-commerce has overtaken POS fraud but POS fraud is still responsible for a huge volume of card fraud in the US and chipped cards will belatedly make a small dent in that, But it is common knowledge in Europe that adding PIN has made a huge dent in those POS card frauds.

 

You have also demeaned the checking of signatures on your trivial purchases and complain that "still in Britain, they stick to their stubbornness of making a big charade out of chcking signatures which is kind of silly."

Are two seconds out of your life so desperately important? Treat it as stubborn and silly with your own cards if you like, up to the introduction of chip&PIN I preferred to see staff being vigilant with mine.

 

And you're correct that "Visitors to the USA are amazed at how lax the use of credit cards are here".

Is it any wonder?

You've freely admitted that your own card has been "compromised several times". Doesn't that tell you something?

We've never ever had a card compromised, though I wait with bated breath following our US trip during which a card reader asked for the PIN on just one solitary occasion and not one signature was checked.

BTW that card is actually in my GF's name. My signature looks nothing like hers - and my name isn't Julie ;).

 

Data shows that 20% of UK card fraud is perpetrated by using US merchants.

Which is probably why we were inconvenience during that US road trip, when the card was declined by a merchant. The card issuer had suspended that card, awaiting a reply to an e-mail seeking verification of a number of mundane purchases ranging from just $6 to little more than $100, even though they'd been told of our trip.

Over-kill?

Perhaps.

But the card rep. told me that they are particularly suspicious of card activity in the USA, which has the world's highest proportion of card crime and where the card doesn't have the security of a PIN number. His comment is confirmed by a link on this thread which shows that the US has as much card crime as the rest of the world put together!!

 

You've quoted that fraud accounts for 12cents per $100 of transactions.

I read figures from a couple of years earlier - and the figure was 6cents per $100 of transactions.

If both figures are correct, that's a very unhealthy trend in the US.

 

So now it looks like chip & sig. technology is likely to be country-wide in the US by October.

Which should be seen as a good thing.

But I see it as a bad thing.

Because merchants investing now in chip & sig. equipment that's not geared to accepting PIN identification are unlikely to throw that expensive equipment away and replace it with chip&PIN in the foreseeable future.

 

As I ended my first post on this thread:

The US of A leads the world in many respects.

On the matter of card security it's way behind.

 

JB :)

Really...so you think a sixteen year old clerk looking at a signature for a £2 charge will increase security? But without arguing, please show me a US issued credit card other than by UNFCU that asks for a pin at a pos terminal. I have pasted the documentation here from some of the banks where people have claimed they have a pin priority card. And again, the US banks are not dumb. If they really thought pins would put a large dent in card is present fraud, they would have done it. And I will agree...credit card fraud has doubled in the last decade from 6¢/$100 to 12¢. At that rate, it will take until 2100 to reach $1. In the scheme of things, lost or stolen card fraud is insignificant. But you misunderstand. Given my druthers, for the sake of worldwide uniformity, I would have preferred pin verification. It is simply not happening in the USA and I guarantee you that somebody using the arrival+ card from Barclay Bank USA has card that is signature preferred as their literature has made quite clear.

But again my intent is simply to help Americans understand that at this writing, the American banking system for the most part, whether for good reasons or not, has rejected pin verification. I am not defending it; I'm just pointing it out. Please name for me a US issued card, other than the one issued by UNFCU and now by First Tech FCU that is primarily pin preferred. If you can, I will eat my words. And indeed the primary advantage of emv chip cards resides in the chip, not the pin. But we can agree to disagree without anger.

I'll tell you. Last month I spent 8 days in London both pre and post a Mediterranean cruise I had two £10 bank notes neatly folder in my wallet from a previous trip. When I returned home, and believe me I don't live high on the hog, the bank notes were still in my wallet. Not once in 8 days was it necessary to use cash. Credit cards for everything large or small. Period. My only complaint is that in the UK, they still insist on comparing signatures on cards with signatures on receipts for trivial amounts. In the USA, most merchants do not bother collecting signatures for purchases under $50 and hardly look at them for larger amounts. A total waste of time which provides absolutelhy no security as some 16 year old student working at Boots for the summer wouldn't know or care about the difference. Even self service machines in chain stores waste everybody's time by not completing a credit card transaction for small amounts but telling yoju to wait for a clerk to come over, enter his or her code to print a receipt and without even looking at it, sticking it in the machine. (American credit cards while many have the chip do not support pins except in rare cases; it's chip and signature all the way).

As far as the $1 bill, it is of course ludicrous but where the US has gone wrong on that, they have yet to produce an impressive looking $1 coin. You get either a £1 or £2 coin in the UK and just be feel it is impossible to confuse it with any other coin. But then again, we still use Farenheit degrees and imperial measurements unlike 99.9% of the rest of the world and insist on using different frequencies for our mobile phones. The price for medical care in the USA is through the roof because we refuse to join the rest of the world and have a single payer system (Americanspay 3 or 4 times what others pay for the same drugs because Congress in its finite wisdom at the request of George Bush refused to allow the equivalent of the NHL in the USA called Medicare (only for those over 65) negotiate drug prices witn drug manufacturers so guess who are left holding the bag. Yes...this is American exceptionalism...exception to things the rest of the world takes for granted and being told how great things are in the USA as compared to elsewhere. When people trael, they find out how ridiculous this is (how many Americans when they hear the afternoon high will be 25 degrees start looking for their winter gaments?) But that's for other blogs.

Let me finish off by saying my motive in my posts here was not to put anybody down or to demonstrate my superior knowledge (even though it is superior). It is to be helpful. It is to not have American credit cardholders search for something that for the most part doesn't exist ("true" pin preference chip and pin cards) under the mistaken notion their cards will not work almost universally in Europe and elsewhere. As I said several times I hope people read what I am writing and understand it in the spirit for which it is being written; not to criticize anybody but to present the facts. I am interested in this topic for a variety of reasons as for the last 2 years, I have been searching for a credit card which has no annual fee, a half decent rewards program, yes pin preference because it is somewhat more convenient as long as those in Europe keep insisting in collecting signatures for small purchases and thus wasting my time and no foreign transaction fee. I haven't found one yet. Of course others may not feel any of these things are important. So why should I care Barclsy Bank USA charges an $89 fee for its arrival+ card which is chip and sign with pin capabilities I want that pin or why should I care that USAA charges a 1% foreign transaction fee even though they backtracked from their original plan at somebody's pressure (on Flyer Talk we have named that process pulling a USAA). If you have questions about this, please ask and you can rest assured any answers you get from me will be correct albeit full of typos because my lap top computer's damn insertion point keeps jumping something Dell can't seem to fix and if I don't know, highly unlikely of course, I will own up but once again please don't shoot the messenger. Just the facts guys and gals.

Check out: https://communities.usaa.com/t5/USAA-News/Headed-to-Cardholders-New-Cards-With-More-Secure-Chip-Technology/ba-p/66317

It gives USAA's rationale behind abandoning chip and pin and going with chip and signature preference cards. So enjoy the chip and pin while you can but your number will be up when the card expires.

My card was issued September 2013 and does not expire until September 2017. As of March 2015 it was functioning as chip and pin in London. Spain, Australia and New Zealand.

Enjoy it and completely jives with what I said. If for some reason the card has to be replaced (whether by your request or theirs) the replacement card will be signature priority. Two more years of pins for you.:) But then again, every time you use it outside the USA, it costs you an additional 1% as it has a foreign transaction fee 1% higher than it should be. I would rather use say the Bank of America Travel Rewards card with no ftf and suffer the indignity of signing and get 1% back in addition. But to each his or her own I suppose.

I have had a USAA chip card for almost two years. I did not get to choose my PIn. USAA automatically assigns the pin and sends it a week or so after the card. Have had no issues using the pin in Europe or the South Pacific.

Several stores in the San Diego area are utilizing chip and sign, but it is very slow. Hopefully as chip technology is fully deployed it will become more user friendly. No where that I have used the card with a pin has it ever been considered a debit transaction.

Hi. Read my reply above. If your card was issued before April 2013, indeed it is chip and pin as priority 1. If that card has expired and/or for whatever reason a new card issued after a'pril 2014, it is now chip and signature priority and if you use it in Europe, will request a signature at personneled pos terminals.

Fascinating discussion. I'm now going to have to go back through the junk mail from USAA when they sent me my new chip cards and suggested I establish a PIN for them. I (apparently) foolishly assumed they were adopting chip & PIN which I also foolishly assumed would make international travel simpler!

 

So this is another place we've decided to be an island unto ourselves. Like GSM and the metric system... While we marvel that entire world doesn't speak American English!

I'll save you the trouble. USAA was one of the first USA banks to issue a "true" chip and pin mastercard in February 2013. I immediately pounced on it and used it on a European trip in the summer of 2013. In every case in Europe, it asked for a pin. However it was not my favorite card as it imposed a 1% foreign transaction fee so I only used it sporadically. Finally Walmart began adopting emv and in preparation for my trip last summer, I took the card to Walmart and sure enough it asked for a pin. It was my intent to use it as a backup just in case I ran into situations where merchants illegally refused to process chip and signature transactions which would be a violation of their merchant agreement. In the interim, I received a new card from USAA as they claimed my card had been damaged. No problem. The day before I left I gave it one more test at Walmart but now it didn't ask for a pin. It completed the transaction with no verification. That summer (2014) when I tried to use the new card in Europe, I was asked for a signature every time.

When I got home, I called USAA to find out what gives. At first they denied they had made any changes. But somebody on flyer talk ran the new card through a device that reads the chip and can print out the order of card verification on the chip. Sure enough the old card was pin priority while the new card was signature priority. USAAA finally admitted they had made the change for "business" reasons which is where we stand today.

You can request a pin from USAA but for it to take effect, you have to make at least one env transaction. At present, the ohnly place to ake an emv transaction in the USA is Walmart. However, the card is more assuredly signature prirority with pin capabilities. At all merchants, the card will be chip and signature. In the USA, the card will be chip and signature. At some kiosks, the card has the capability to function as chip and pin much like the Barclaycard arrival+ card. Again, rest assured, it will work most likely everywhere as do all American chip and signature cards but with a signature and not a pin.

One other thought to the person who thought I was questioning his or her integrity. Barclaycard is a worldwide name for cards issued by that bank. For cards issued outside the USA, it is indeed a chip and pin card. For those cards it issues to USA residents through its USA subsidiary, as I said and have shown its literature, it is chp and signature priority with pin capabilities so I hope we were talking about the same crd.

I love your analogy about American exceptionalism and our failure to adhere to world standards on things like having a normal system of measurements, the gsm phone frequency bit. How about the stupidity of costing the US treasury billions every year by continuing to issue $1 and $2 bank notes.

Our Canadian friends long ago abandoned $1 and $2 bills in favor of the loonie and the twonie coins. Also Canada has just gotten rid of the penny but we in the USA clings to these anachroisms Or I could talk about a single payer health system which would cut health osts by 70% and provide better medical coverage among other things. But this credit card malarkey is certainly an example of Amerkcan refusal to join the 21st century although in this particular case, chip and signature is really not all that different than chip and pin as some people try to make it out to be as the only time it really matters is if the actual card is lost or stolen and the data shows this is a very minor problem and again because of the no liability rules in the USA not a problem for cosumers.

How to use your chip card.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Using your card internatioanlly.

At chip-card terminals:

Insert your card into the reader – chip side up and chip end in – and leave it there until your transaction is complete. In most cases, you’ll sign for your transactions. But at self-service terminals like ticket kiosks and vending machines, you could be prompted to enter your 4-digit PIN.

Above quote from https://www.barclaycardus.com/servicing/chipcard.

Actually Bob (I assume you are from Britain) I get what you're saying. As it stands today, at least before the 01 October 2015 deadline, the card issuers are the ones who take the hit on fraud. Or do they? The latest statistics show that the US banks make a mint on their plastic card operations and the latest figures available show fraud losses total 12¢ on every $100 of profit. They don't want to do anything to steer people away from using their cards hence the zero liability even though the government legislation from the 1970's allows them to pass up to $50 to the consumers. No bank would even consider that as savy consumers would simply switch to another card. Also one of the reasons US banks are reluctant to go to pins, or so they claim, is because of the surveys they have done they worry that people will get confused by which card goes with which pin, that they will confuse pins used for purchases with pins for cash advances and that people might reach for the card that causes them the least amount of hassle i.e. the cards with signature verification which means no verifications for small amounts as few merchants in the USA even bother with signatures anymore for purchases under $50 or even look at the signatures in most cases for purchases above. I am not sure, I admit, if the same regulations permitting this are on all worldwide visa/mc merchant agreements. Some tell me yes others say no. Visitors to the USA are amazed at how lax the use of credit cards are here and if you visited the USA, as least as it stands today, about the only merchant where you will probably find you are asked for a pin is Walmart whose terminals will ask for pins on cards where pin is a higher priority than signature is, gjess what, the UNFCU card. Every other card in my possession when I shop at Walmart and insert the card in the emv terminal will either not ask for a signature for amounts up to at least $125 believe it or not or simply ask me to sign the terminal pad. I will wager my friend who thinks I am questioning his or her integrity to give his or her Barclaycard the Walmart test. I'll bet a nickel no pin will be asked for.

I am not questioning for one second anybody here as to how it is done in Britain or anywhere else. I am just reporting the facts as they stand today based on both my personal experience and what I read. But as far as this article is concerned here, if you have a US issued credit card by other than UNFCU, your card is signature preferred and you will usually be asked for a signature certainly at pos terminals and will have few problems getting the cards to work.

Please don't shoot the messenger.