glojo

Thanks Chengkp for taking the time to answer my queries and I really appreciate reading your wise words.

I too heard that voice recording of the conversation between the captain and that helmsman and I confess to being surprised when I heard the 'conversation'. I believe it went along the lines of something like..

Captain

'Steer 215'

helmsman

'Steer 210?'

He was sort of mumbling that reply and the voice gave the impression he was unsure.

The captain then chatted about the consequences of what would happen if the helmsman steered the course he had intended with words similar to,

'If we steer 210, we will run the ship onto the rocks... steer 215!'

I am wondering if this captain was playing (or showing off) to the civilians on the bridge... I would have expected a short....

'Negative, steer 215'

My experience is only with a wheelhouse deep within the bowels of the ship where the helmsman or quartermaster is staring at a gyro-compass and simply carrying out the instructions of the Officer of the Watch. (or the captain :) ) The only other person in that tiny wheelhouse would be a bosun's mate although when complex manoeuvres are expected along with entering or leaving harbour, the quartermaster would be replaced by a senior non-commissioned officer.

Would it be right for me to suggest it is a major, major no, no for a captain to even attempt to blame his officers when things go wrong? I have never heard of it unless I read history books regarding mutiny's. Shame on that man.

I have also read that the issue with misunderstanding those helm orders was not a contributory factor and to me that is the end of the debate regarding cause, but my questions still stand regarding that person acting in that role. From what I have read this person could not speak fluently or understand the required language and I would still ask the same questions and ask if this was symptomatic of that ships lack of command?? (struggling for the right words)

Last few questions (for now... If you don't mind) :)

From what I have read and heard, the ship had the correct charts for the cruise they were doing but...... They did not have detailed charts of the waters close to that island (they were not needed or required for this cruise)

In your experience, once it became clear that this 'idiot' was heading way too close to the island, should any senior watch-keeping officer have spoken up?? (polite question and not something I could envisage happening)

I am used to a captain that is perhaps 'God' and very aloof. The officer you call the staff captain would be what I call the 'First Lt' and this officer would ensure the ship was a well oiled hunk of machinery and not just shone like a new pin, the crew would also be working as one, with everyone working as that 'well oiled' team. Training, development, all this would be down to the First Lieutenant to ensure that heads of department were doing their best endeavours to keeping up the morale and trying to advance the careers of the crew. (hopefully you can understand what I am trying to say)

The captain would very much keep himself to himself and not interfere with how the ship was run or maintained, he would however have his standing orders which all officers are expected (required) to know front to back and back to front!! :)

My thoughts are that this captain should be hopefully keel-hauled but are you happy with procures and lifeboats leaving the ship less than a third full? Were the drills carried out in a professional manner by those entrusted to perform those duties?

Schettino failed in his responsibility to properly train his bridge team (and in one interview, blamed Costa and the IMO for this failure, essentially saying that it wasn't his responsibility to train his officers). He also set a bad example by having guests on the bridge during maneuvering, and having conversations and phone calls while on the bridge. I don't believe he actually knew how the ship would respond in various maneuvers, as his order to increase speed before the collision, and his tentative helm orders just prior to collision testify. When told there was flooding in various compartments, he kept asking the guys who were down there getting wet to confirm which compartments they were, over and over. I have nothing but contempt for Schettino.

MOST IMPORTANT. I agree with your assessment of that commanding officer

I have a horrible habit of writing down my thoughts as they enter my head. Unfortunately sometimes they read as statements of fact as opposed to coming out as the questions they are meant to be. This post is all about my asking you a polite question regarding who sorts out watchbills and who does what when it comes to working the ship.

Hopefully you accept I am asking questions and most certainly not disagreeing with you.

Once more however you have stirred my curiosity. The Concordia had a crew of over 1000 and whilst the captain is in overall command and the butt will always rest at his door.... Surely this man is not responsible for allocating what work each sailor does on that ship???

It makes absolutely no sense. If a junior mechanic down in the engine room starts an engine without carrying out the correct procedure, do we still blame the captain?

Would the captain be in overall command be then delegate numerous responsibilities to his heads of department? Would these heads of department then delegate their areas of responsibility into sub areas?

when the captain entered the bridge, would that helmsman have been in situ and already steering the ship?

I accept in this case the ship was on autopilot and until the captain took the ship, this helmsman was acting as a lookout but my point is that this person was the duty helmsman and had no doubt been a helmsman before this awful day. Someone and this is where I need you to clarify....... My thoughts are that someone other than the captain made this person a helmsman and my thoughts are that this someone must surely be held accountable and explain why they decided this person was competent.

Could you please explain how you blame the captain for the selection of what sailor does what job throughout the ship!!

Would the Navigating Officer have any responsibility on selection of staff that work on the bridge?

Do you have a First Officer type rank and would they also ensure the navigating officer carries out his duties in a competent and professional manner

I blame him for not getting this sailor replaced as soon as he had to explain in detail the orders he was giving, but I would be pointing the finger at whoever compiled that watch-bill??

The captain might tell the court that it was neither the time, nor the place to take action against that sailor...... but he 'planned on doing it' the next morning!!! :eek::( Of course I do not believe that but when clutching at straws........

My thoughts are that if the captain of any ship is not happy about the way a certain area is not functioning then would it be better for him to have a word (or even stronger) to his first officer\First Lt\Commander and they then haul in the head of the relevant department, they then in turn will keep this rollicking rolling downhill and no doubt this rollicking would grow in momentum as it rolls downhill??

I would not expect a captain to undemine his senior officers and start micro-managing?? (question)

Quick update.

Regarding the link supplied by Travelgirl87 I can now confirm we would indeed have to cruise with them to go on the excursions :(

Sorry we can't assist you. We have to handle to cruise to handle the excursions. Let us know next time.

Thank you Travelgirl for taking the time to post that link.

John

The Concordia, as well as nearly every other cruise ship, was a "two compartment" ship, which means that if two adjacent compartments flood, the ship will still remain afloat. The breach in the Concordia affected four adjacent compartments, all in the engineering spaces, so there was no force on God's earth that would keep the ship afloat.

 

Whether the crew member meant that water kept coming through the door, or the level kept rising in the space despite the door being closed, would need a court transcript and exact translation. Remember, we are getting this from a news article, not the actual testimony.

 

I would doubt that there is a problem with the design of the doors, as they have been used for years, and approved by classification societies and government agencies like the USCG. Any problem with the operation of the doors would be either procedural or maintenance issues, and both would be the Captain's responsibility (through the Chief Engineer) to ensure that safety equipment is properly operated and maintained. What troubles me is that most companies require that most watertight doors be closed at sea at all times, and when the ship is in "confined waters" (entering/leaving port, or running close ashore) all doors must be closed. These doors are even in crew berthing areas, and cause crew to have to go up stairs to the bulkhead deck (first deck above waterline), and then back down a stair to get from two cabins that are only a few feet apart on the same deck, but in two different watertight compartments. On my ship, the engine room was divided into 12 watertight compartments, and the watchkeepers had to keep opening, crossing through, and closing each door as they toured the engine room.

 

Schettino can and should go to jail for a long time for what he did and didn't do that night. From my perspective, just listening to the cell phone video of the bridge was enough to convince me that Schettino had no clue what to do, or any intention to do anything but save his own reputation and skin.

Thanks for clarifying the watertight intergrity issue as I have no idea how these huge ships compartmentalise all those diesel engines in the numerous workplaces.

I will tactfully suggest that when we take command, we take the responsibility and just like you, I have heard a number of transcripts and that person was sadly swamped by all that critical information being thrust at him in probably seconds...

When the going gets tough... The tough get going.

That man could not cope.. Could he be an example of the 'Peter Principle'?? One promotion too far click

Did you listen to the bridge recording of him giving orders to the helmsman and then having to correct the order?

Is it normal practice on a merchant ship to give such a responsible position to somene who clearly struggled to understand thev terminlogy used?

I don't blame the captain for a watch bill allocation, but the instant I gave conn orders and the helmsman struggled to understand them.... I would want that man relieved!!!

I wonder how long this had been going on for?

Since several adjacent compartments were breached, most likely he closed the door at one end of the compartment, but the space was filling from its own breach or from the space at the other end of the compartment, where the door may have been still open. The doors are designed with hydraulic accumulators to operate even with absolutely no electrical power available, and even if badly maintained would stop 98% of the water when closed.

 

I remember from early on, when the cell phone video of the bridge first hit youtube, hearing conversation on the bridge where Schettino was being told about the flooding, and how many spaces were involved, and he kept asking for clarification of how many spaces, saying "if it is two compartments, we are okay (really?, two engine spaces flooded and you're okay?), but if its three compartments, they were going to sink".

I agree with your wise words about the loss of main compartments but are we qualified to debate how many need to be loss before that very specific ship goes down?

You are without doubt an extremely knowledgeable person but do you have the detailed information regarding this class of ship? (polite question) I am not doubting what you say, I am simply curious as hopefully you will agree when I suggest... the best 'lifeboat' is the ship. Abandoning must always be the last resort, especially on vessels of this size. Hindsight dictates it should have been abandoned earlier but no one had that useless talent on that awful night.

I am most definitely NOT defending the conduct of the captain as I feel he has a lot to answer for, but if folks try to convict him on charges that are defensible, then will justice be served for all those that lost their lives on that dreadful night?

That was an extremely large ship and I have no knowledge regarding the number of watertight main compartments there were or how many needed to be lost before the ship would sink.

W all accept that once a ship looses too much watertight integrity.. She is doomed but I am going by the actual words being spoken by that witness...

"They closed the door but water kept coming through!!"

We can all speculate on what that 'might' mean but to me the witness needs to clarify that statement. Where was that water coming from? Again I totally accept the ship had an awful gash down her side and it is obvious water would enter that ship at an alarming rate but that statement needs clarifying and is assuming going to be helpful?

I am saying all this just because weeks or maybe months ago I read somewhere that the captain in his defence was going to challenge the design or operation of those very same doors!!

My thoughts and they are just that, but my thoughts are that this is a red herring and most certainly do not excuse the alleged conduct of this person.

An interesting post and the words of that engineer might need further investigating:

“The water was up to our knees in a very short time. I closed a water-tight door but the water kept coming through. I turned round, I climbed up a ladder to the upper deck, I managed to save myself. When I entered the main engine room there was great fear.”

The company states that they also provide cruise excursions. Here's a link to that page:

http://www.disabilitytravel.com/cruise/accessible_shore_excursions.htm

 

As I mentioned before, I haven't used them so can't vouch for their services but they do seem to be one of the few larger companies I've encountered.

Thank you Travelgirl and I confess that when I red this extract, I dismissed them:

The service of arranging accessible shore excursions is reserved for passengers making their cruise reservation with Accessible Journeys.

I will however send them an email, as nothing ventured, nothing gained

I have no personal experience with this company, but their website offers items that may be helpful to you:

 

http://www.disabilitytravel.com/access-network.htm

 

Perhaps others have had some dealings with them and can add in their opinions.

 

Happy travels.

I have now found contact details for a taxi company in Sydney although I think I would prefer a River cruise of some type, but I at least have an option.

I thank you for bringing this up.

It made me think of how best to handle the situation.

If it were to happen in front of me in the future I will simply take the plate and move it elsewhere. (To a place where it will be removed from the serving area even if it means that I lose my place in line.)

I do not think it necessary to correct the actions of others unless there is immediate harm involved. How sanitary do you consider the back of the chair you pull out when you sit at the table? How sanitary is the actual table top, or the salt and pepper shaker? Life involves some big risks.

Sometimes it is better to be happy than right.

Sometimes in life, as in bottled soft drinks, it is better to chill after opening it.

Very well said and hopefully the author will accept my post in the spirit it was meant?:o;) I most certainly am not being critical of anyone, I am really suggesting what I might do and the reasons why.

Having worked and traveled extensively throughout Asia/Southeast Asia, accessible transportation will also be very difficult, if non existent for Japan, South Korea, Hong Kong, Vietnam, Malaysia, Sri Lanka , India, and Dubia. This is the main reason I no longer travel to these countries since becoming disabled.

 

Should you find something make certain that the vehicle has tie downs to secure you and the wheelchair. In China , seat belts are removed from the vehicle in order to fit more people. So having tie downs for wheelchairs is a concern. Having spent thousands of hours in China Taxis I can tell you that safety is not the first priority.

 

In India and China, someone may even try talking you into being lifted into the back of an open pick-up truck. Most definitely do not recommend doing this.

Excellent advice and when signing up for this cruise I did it with my eyes wide open and had planned to be on the ship for the duration of this cruise. If I can get ashore it will be a very fortunate bonus but clearly common sense will be the order of the day and I doubt folks will see me being towed behing the local rickshaws :)

The author wanted to know if she was rude, not if she was right ... Anyway, I think that compared to what it was really about, the discussion or the way it developed was out of proportion.

Was the question not whether this behaviour was rude, wasn't it? :confused:

I do feel however that even though I was not present, I can offer my two penarth, especially having witnessed any number of petty altercations that slowly got out of control.

My husband is paraplegic and most larger cities here have accessible taxi vans that have a ramp into the van and then they chain the chair to the floor so that it doesn't move around while the van is in motion.

I found a very large tourist type site in sydney that offers numerous types of vehicles for land tours but much to my surprise they do not have vehicles capable of carrying wheelchairs.

I have not posted this image to any site for fear of taxi firms having kittens but if I were to raise the back of this chair any further, I would not be able to use it.

My plan is plonk myself out on my balcony and get cooked to a frazzle!!! I am hoping to organise a trip on the waters in sydney Harbour and I will carry on with my quest, but finding transportation is proving to be a challenge.

Yoshikitty, you WERE NOT rude, you and your husband did exactly the right thing. Over the years I have witnessed some of the rudest and most reprehensible behavior on cruise ships - particularly in the buffet dining room, from failing to use the hand detergent provided at the buffet entrance to individual's shocking habits with regards to food, plates, drinks and utensils in general.

 

I accept that we are a large group of people in a small area and this in itself can put behavior under the spotlight, but whilst I love the cruising experience the conduct of some people makes me despair.

 

In the main I think it comes down to one word "selfishness" and the inability of people to conform to what are acceptable standards of what most people describe as the norm. On our last QV cruise I witnessed selfishness with regards to the so-called reserving of sun loungers which were never used, the so-called reserving of seats in the theatre which were never used, pressing both the up and down buttons on the elevators and then walking away and don't get me started on those who will do anything to avoid using the hand soap dispensers. So, Yoshkitty, keep it up, challenge bad behavior as I do and make the cruising experience as enjoyable as it should be - for the majority.

Whilst I agree with the sentiments I personally totally disagree with the advice unless....

If both yourself and your husband do not mind a confrontation and both you and your husband are prepared for just about any type of abuse or perish the thought.... assault then once more, do as is recommended.

I totally accept you are in the right but trust me when I say being in the right does not offer any protection...

A motorcyclist might be in the right when they ride across a road junction, but if an ignorant driver in a car decides to flout the rules of the road..... Being right offers no protection.

Is it not better to think before putting mouth into gear??:eek::o As said previously, if you think the plate is contaminated, then why not politely ask the ship's staff to remove it?

We are all good kids loading the revolver, but perhaps we might not be so quick to pull the trigger! ;)

In life I have always found that no matter how big we think we are, there are always folks that are bigger.

why invite or provoke confrontation?

Just my personal observations

Regards

John

My son with autism has been on 5 cruises (he is now 8) both before and after diagnosis. There are many issues during the muster drill that can affect our kids and we parents ask for accommodations not just for us but for the safety of those around us during a drill.

 

So that those without autistic family members understand I will share some past experiences. First the orange life vest. Now I have no idea how I will manage should I ever need to evacuate the boat but everyone else can where one, I cannot. He will scream bloody murder at the top of his lungs. Many cruise lines no longer require these be brought to the muster drill and I hope there are very few people like my husband who has no clue how to put it on.

Does the ship have a legal requirement to carry out these drills prior to the ship sailing?

Do you want an exception to be made for the condition of your child?

You say the following:

I commend your choice for not wanting dispensation however you are not going to scream at the top of your lungs, hit, bite, kick, or scratch those around you are you?

 

Can you sit during the drill well that depends and I'm not familiar with your cruise-line's procedure however during the part where you stand by the lifeboats (if it occurs during the entire drill or after meeting in a public room, or not at all) no you cannot sit as there are no seats. I was yelled at for getting on the ground with my son while I restrained him because that was not procedure.

You state your son will:

scream at the top of their lungs, hit, bite, kick, or scratch those around you

The cruise line we are sailing with asks at the time of booking to declare any serious disabilities that passengers might have. Does this requirement apply to the companies you sail with? If so, then no doubt you informed them of your son's condition and behaviour? I say this as I believe we all have a duty toward not just our families, but also our fellow shipmates and of course the crew?

Once we report our conditions and the cruise line accept our booking, then do they then have a responsibility of care toward our safety and well being?

I have no idea if the cruise lines you sail with ask about medical conditions or disabilities so PLEASE do not read anything into what I have just said.

You then ask me the following:

So while I think it is wonderful that you have the utmost sympathy with the author basically what you are saying is that we (the families of those children with autism who have difficulty in handling many situations) should never ever take a vacation because so many components will need to be modified and you (and many others) don't think that is a good idea.

I hate using children as examples so will use myself and yes these symptoms are real and not exaggerated..

I want to go on a mountaineering holiday with a reputable company.

I am severely disabled, cannot walk unaided, I am in terrible, continual pain only controlled by the strongest of medications. My lower body will frequently go into spasms so violent that they sprain my pesky ankles and I have numerous bruises all over my legs where my daft feet knock ten bells out of each other.

I still however want to go on this holiday with this company that advertises those beautiful breaks. (no pun intended;):cool:)

Should I insist on going on or would this be an adventure too far? Should I be saying what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Why can't this company to use your words....

Quote: '''Modify certain components""

I have no idea how severe your son's condition is and can only go by your description. I do know how bad my condition is and the above suggestion is never going to happen. This holiday will be our firsdt in 25 years as my condition has just improved enough to get the required clearances from the cruise line.

Next issue I've gone early, I've explained to the staff. The result was time to line up we end up on the back line being mushed the longest and between the touching, the looks, the talking, the smells he struggles and I usually ended up restraining him struggling to prevent him from hitting, kicking, and biting those around us. Result was I got yelled at for not following directions.

If your cruise company has accepted your booking then surely the ship has a responsibility of care and whilst I believe these drills have to be complied with, if theyare too traumatic, then surely someone should be saying enough is enough and perhaps this is not the best of ideas?? Are these drills for our benefit?

If we can't swim should we go swimming?

Again please try to accept I am NOT being clever, or sarcastic, I am hopefully asking a polite number of questions to better understand the points you are trying to make :o

Next question..

I am not having a go at you here but by going to these drills early are we not devaluing them and might I ask 'what are we achieving?' Is the drill to simply equate us with where we have to stand? If so why hold a drill? Why not simply tell folks to make themselves acquanted with that location?

I would like to think this is a drill to make sure the crew are competent at clearing the ship in a specific period of time and ensuring no one has been overlooked? If this is the case then by making exceptions, they have by default failed to meet this stipulation?

Again these are my thoughts and not me advocating policy... Are we passengers best off keeping our mouths firmly closed and solely complying with instructions giving to us by the crew? If issues do arise then of course we speak out and hopefully try to clarify any issue.

Before you jump down my throat I 100% accept things will be difficult for you but if the ship is forewarned, regarding your child's condition then is there a chance the ship might prepare a plan?? I am saying this as I have already had a nice letter from the Special Needs Office of our cruise line explaining what aids they have available for me and what else might I need during this cruise!!

When you go to your emergency station the crew might be aware you may need special aid, help or anything else to make this experience acceptable and with any luck they will do their best to make this as easy as is practicle.. BUT when that alarm sounds we surely must all have a duty to attend our station be it a drill or for real?

By making an exception and having a separate drill does the captain contravene the latest legislation that insists on this event happening prior to the ship sailing?

I am not picking on you and it must be distressing for you to endure this, but are you the person making the booking? If we do not carry out these drills are we asking for another fiasco similar to the Costa Concordia? I am NOT talking about the collision, I am talking about the lack of compliance shown by a significant number of passengers who on the many, many video clips I watched showed a complete lack of knowledge regarding what to do?

In their defence these passengers will understandably admit to have not attended their emergency drill, simply because the ship had sailed a few hours earlier and these drills were due to be done the following day:(:( As per my previous post.... Train hard, fight easy.... By being blaise about these drills there can be an extremely high price to pay and in the above example this incident occured just hours after the ship put to sea

Are these safety drills for our benefits, yours, mine and your son's? If the cruise company say you are exempt then whilst I accept that decision, I most certainly do not agree with it!!! Our children are the most valuable gift we will ever get and I take my duty of care as seriously as you and every other parent.

Me thinking aloud

If my child objected to a yellow life jacket then I would buy my very own child's yellow life jacket (to be kept at home) and then gently encourage them to wear it. This would be done in a nice, safe secure location at home where we can make a game of this issue and then hopefully when we board the ship they will not be so traumatised when they have to wear this 'plaything'. I might even have a 'Captain's' hat that my child would wear at home when we play this game and when we go to a ship's organised drill, I might think about bringing that hat with us and allowing my child to wear it?? Again this is me thinking aloud about my son and NOT anyone elese's child. I am just thinking that usually there is more than one way to skin a custard tart!! .

You are the expert regarding this condition and I am NOT trying to teach you to suck eggs. Is a cruise line giving separate drills failing in their duty of care, and are they are also letting you down!!!! I say this in a sympathetic manner and whilst I understand why it would be easier for all concerned to let you have a seperate drill....

If God forbid this were to happen for real, then all those around you are already in a high state of tension and having a child quote: scream at the top of their lungs, hit, bite, kick, or scratch those around you?

Is possibly not going to go down very well?

Are you then going to explain your child's condition? With the greatest of respect I can only begin to imagine how distressing this all will be with everyone around us in a high degree of stress and maybe panic!!, Whereas if you carry out this required drill with everyone present then at least they are aware of the situation and might hopefully be supportive towards you both?

Apologies for this long post but we are discussing something that may well be a life or death issue. I can understand why the crew might tell you off for laying on the floor with your child as it definitely puts you both at risk but surely this would be the ideal time to say... "What do you suggest"

If your child gets distressed by waiting in the queue then are there any other options and I don't mean making you exempt. This is me throwing ideas into the pot..

Would an option be to suggest you make an early entry into your specific lifeboat? Note this is a question and only offered as a brainstorming type suggestion to encourage folks to offer more constructive advice.. This is your child and what ideas do you have? Remember we are talking about an emergency situation where lives are at risk.

Is there a location where you could sit in the full knowledge you will not get trampled on? Somewhere with steel supports, bulkheads, pillars or posts.

Again I am politely asking and let's use me as the proverbial guinea pig..

I cannot stand unaided and even if I did have this aid, I would black out after 10 - 15 minutes. I am saying this solely to highlight that standing for me is not an option and no ammount of shouting is going to perform a surgical miracle and get me standing. What is good enough for me must be good enough for anyone else. If I have to lay down on the floor then why can't anyone else with a medical condition that demands this? Hopefully I will not be used as a doormat!!

I got the feeling that my reservations were considered at great length and it might easily have been refused. If it had, then this refusal would have been made in good faith and would have been something I would have accepted. In life do we sometimes just have to accept that we are all not going to become astronauts?

Finally.... whewwww

Some folks believe that autism is a horrible ailment that has awful consequences but this person who I am guessing you are familiar with suffered terribly from this condition and could not speak until she was three and a half. click She had those issues that you have discussed but it is also fair to suggest she was definitely not wrapped up in cotton wool. Her story definitely fetches a tear to the eye and if folks ever get the chance to watch the film about her life... It is really worth watching

As I said at the beginning of this long post.... If we get clearance from the cruise line regarding any type of medical condition, then to me, NO PASSENGER has the right to poke their oar in! If the cruise line does not need notification then they should!!! I say that in the nicest of ways as whilst we might know all there is to know about these conditions, we do not know enough about ship's husbandry.

Hopefully you are taking this post in the spirit it was wrote and if I have accidentally caused offence then that rests with my inability to put my thoughts into words that are tactful enough to deal with this issue.

Good luck with that seventh cruise?? (or sixth)

Regards

John

Each and every passenger on a cruise ship attends a muster drill. If you are blessed to be an able bodied passenger this mandatory drill takes place at assigned muster stations and is the typical muster drill. However, there are passengers whose particular disability preclude the standing packed like sardines for the duration of the drill . The cruise lines have taken this into account and will provide a muster drill that allows them to participate. Would you take issue with a wounded one leg veteran being offered a chance to sit during the drill ? Of course not! An autistic individual frequently cannot tolerate the closed in conditions of the drill most passenger stand through. But rest assured, they will attend a muster drill, just not the same one as you, in the same place. There is no greater advocate, or anyone more aware of her child's safety, than the parent of an autistic child.

I fear you are not thinking this through.. We have both had our say and whilst I do not have one leg, I believe I do have a right to express an opinion.

I cannot stand unaided, nor indeed sit!!

And YES I will be attending this mandatory drill and most definitely not be asking for ANY dispensation but where does it say we cannot sit if there is a medical reason for so doing, although I might tactfully suggest that sitting may well see us getting trampled in a real drill\panic

To get to this cruise ship I will have travelled just under 200 miles in the back of an extremely uncomfortable ambulance but instead of being able to recover and allow my pain to settle to an acceptable level, I will be compelled to attend this drill prior to the ship sailing.

This drill is a mandatory requirement that ALL passengers on a Cunard ship have to attend (or so I was told by the senior medical officer) For this muster I will be in excruciating pain (somewhat controlled by long term morphine medication) Because of the trauma my body will no doubt be put through getting to this muster my body will suffer prolonged violent spasms, but I will have learnt how to get to my muster station in a crowd, without using a lift!! something I will need to know should a real emergency arise and something I will have learnt about by doing this drill.

I will not be asking for any type of dispensation, I will most certainly not be playing any type of disability card, nor asking to be excused. I opted to go on a cruise, my choice, my decision. I knew I had to do these drills and if I did not like the rules of the game then I had the option of not playing. Are these drills are for our benefit?

Incidentally before having my booking accepted for this cruise I had to get clearance firstly from the Special Needs Department at Cunard Head Office and then from the senior medical officer aboard the ship. Thankfully this person had no objections providing I agreed to attend any and all drills. If I could not attend the drills, I would not be allowed to board the ship!!

So whilst I am a veteran, (I hate that word) I still have two legs (which are quite literally... In every sense of the word...... A pain in the Butt) ;) I was terribly injured in the line of duty and feel I have earned the right to simply talk about my condition or your wounded, one legged veteran. So contrary to what you are suggesting I believe I can be judgemental regarding my own condition.

I am ex-military and for my sins I believe in training how to fight, and fighting how we train!!!! TRAIN HARD, FIGHT EASY, or do the drills as close to realism as possible and hopefully when the real situation arises we have learnt how to 'walk the walk'

My turn to ask you a question...

If I, or that mythical wounded, one legged veteran were to turn up early, or use a lift..... then how do we know how the crew will get us down those stairs? How do we know how the crew will cope with someone that cannot sit or walk? By having our own private drill, are we creating a completely force environment that bears no reality to what we are trying to achieve?

The crew has a duty to get me to my station and I want to learn how that is done and possibly offer constructive observations if needed to help them perform this unenviable task. (I weigh just over 16stone and am a horizontal 2 metres in length) This may well mean that moving me might be at the very least 'a challenge'

What would I learn if I get dispensation, use the lifts or get to my area early or even have my own personal drill. I am someone that believes that if we do something, we should do it properly or why bother?

I will attend this muster drill and learn from it as much as I possibly can.

I most certainly do not listen to folks that simply say, 'What will be, will be'!!

I feel I must however emphasis that........ YOU ARE DOING WHAT YOU THINK IS RIGHT

I have put that in bold type NOT to shout, but to emphasis the fact I understand why you are making this stance.

You are doing what you think is right but don't assume others will always agree with your opinion.

You are doing what you believe is right, I am doing what I am told :o:o (humour)..

Hopefully we are two adults with possibly opposing opinions and whilst I concede I do not have a child that is autistic, I do know however that if I did have such a child, I would personally attend this muster, and this is where we are different.... We are both doing what we believe is correct.

If it was dangerous for my child to attend these drills then I most definitely would NOT attend it.

There is no greater advocate, or anyone more aware of her child's safety, than the parent of an autistic child.

By default, I would then not go on a cruise ship, but that is me and we are NOT discussing what I would or would not do.

I live with my disability because I know there are always folks worse off and strange as it may seem that gives me strength to cope with life.... These muster drills are for our benefit and in my very own personal opinion, they should be taken seriously and carried out correctly.

This is me voicing my very own personal observations to a query you have asked.

It is possible that you will ask head office of the company you are sailing with and they may well give you that dispensation.

It is also possible the crew may turn a blind eye to your not taking part...

All this has absolutely NOTHING to do with me, I am simply replying to points you have raised in your last post and also then offering my position if I were in your much smaller shoes. ;)

We are clearly not going to agree regarding this issue and I genuinely and sincerely wish you good luck with your communicating with the cruise line and hopefully you will have an uneventful cruise.

Best wishes

John the veteran:eek:;)

Forgive me for not understanding your limitations. I would also suggest contacting the Special Needs department of Cunard. They may be able to give you the name and email address of the shore excursion manager on board the ship. That person might be able to see where any accessible vehicles would be available to you.

 

I know from experience, the kind of vehicle you require will not be available in Sri Lanka, Vietnam, Tonga or Papua. You will have difficulty finding an accessible vehicle in India, Kuala Lumpur. Since they're going to have the Olympics and Para Olympics in South Korea, I would guess that accessible vehicles will be available. The Japanese are also very good as far as having fully accessible vehicles.

 

I still recommend Egypt for All for your tours in that country. They do have fully accessible vehicles.

;)No need for forgiveness (unless you have a crystal ball) :)

Your post is most helpful and confirms what I had planned for.

I am determined to visit the chapel above the USS Arizona, I have found a company in Honolulu and to me this is a wonderful, and unexpected plus to this cruise.

I take onboard what you are saying about Egypt, the British Foreign Office state that there is not any security risks at Sharm El Sheikh. I understand this but I am someone that is very protective towards my wife and to be perfectly honest, I would want there to be a calmer situation in that country before I start driving around their highways and bye-ways!

Regarding your comment about the Special Needs Department.. I must confess they have been brilliant and once aboar ship and I have settled in, I will have a chat with the excursions manager but I do not expect them to work miracles ;)

I am fortunate enough to have a decent balcony, a very nice camera, great books and of course a brilliant wife... I'm a pig in clover

Start out by contacting the tourism boards of the countries you are visiting, and then Google "wheelchair transport (city of your visit)" to start out on your search.

Thank you very much indeed for that as it is something I had not thought of.

Many years ago I had to have surgery on an injury to my lower spine, sadly none of the surgery I underwent was as succesful as I had hoped. I can now only travel on a stretcher and at home I am practically bed bound. My pain is controlled by morphine and on a good day I can walk very short distances with the aid of crutches (30 - 50 metres) This is not a pleasant experience but something I insist on doing.

There is no way I can tolerate sitting, be that on a bench seat or an armchair. In an emergency I have reclined the front seat of a car and then crawled into the passenger seat. This might be something I am daft enough to consider if there are any really nice places to go!! But any type of travelling will take a number of days to recover from (sea days)

Another interpretation would be that Cunard has shifted available inventory to segments as opposed to the full cruise and selling the segments at a discount (as you've observed) but keeping the FULL (bold underline) world cruise priced high in order to maintain the element of exclusivity there (which probably is part of the appeal of the full world cruise cruise to some).

Hi Underwatr,

Many apologies for being on the slowside but I do not understand what you are saying. The full cruise on the Queen Elizabeth has been sold out for a number of weeks as has the high end cabion on the other two ships.

Would it be fair to suggest that selling a cruise out in October and not sailing until January might mean that if there were more high end cabins available, they could have possibly sold them at the full price?

I have no idea but I do know that I was lucky to get my grade of cabin way back in August 2012 for this cruise!!

I think we should also offer a bit of reassurance and suggest that sometimes it is the pesky cunard site that goes down. Was it two or three days ago that the Voyage Personaliser was off line for a few hours?? I got caught because whenever I have a computer problem, I tend to blame the two digits that thump the keyboard although those two digits blame someone else further up the arm :eek:;)

Ooooops...

Just noticed our cheeky sailor states they have been trying to log on for months!! My bad

sailorsmate44.5.. stick to sailing ships!!!!! (humour)

Glojo, I think discounting is pretty normal for most cruise lines post GFC, especially since many Europeans, Brits and Americans (which make up most of the world's cruise passengers) are a little more frugal than they once were.

 

The same has happened at the pointy end of planes. Prices for flights, cruises and hotels have come down a lot to lure more clientele.

 

It's great for travellers with spare cash to burn, but I wonder what it will mean for the quality of services long term.

 

A lot of people complain about standards slipping. Yes, to cost cutting, but without cuts to keep fares lower they wouldn't be filling the ships to even 60-70% full.

 

As for the destinations on offer, I must say that the QE 2014 world voyage looks incredible. In my view it is the best itinerary out of the three ships. If only I had the time!

 

Cunard obviously have crunched the numbers and worked out that more voyages out of NYC isn't viable.

 

As a business, they need to think of profit (which, regardless of what we'd prefer, comes before service...always). Clearly Norway, the Baltic, the Med, Australia (for QM2 world voyage) are the most popular as Cunard keeps putting their ships in these places.

 

That said, they seem to be experimenting with new places. Iceland looks interesting. I'd also like to see some Japan-China voyages outside the world cruise period. However, there is some stiff competition in that region from Princess, which is planning to base two ships in the Asia Pacific region year round from next year.

You make lots of very good points and I agree about the itinerary of the Queen Elizabeth, I fear it was the main reason we both chose her over all the opposition from all the other lines that were offering circum-navigations.

I also agree with you regarding cruise lines offering discounts on fares but Cunard completely sold out the full World cruise cabins before they even had to consider this course of action. (As did P&O) but the sectors are a different story. someone has already said doing the Trans Atlantic sector was so cheap, it was nearly cheaper to go on the cruise as opposed to staying at home! Strangely enough the first cabins to sell out were the most expensive grades with the cheaper ones bringing up the rear :)

I do however see a possible issue about having cruises that sail to Japan, would that mean having two World cruises per year, but if it makes a profit, then so what? I had suggested that Cunard might consider one or two trips to Cape Town, is this an option? I must confess to possibly being slightly bias as I loved that country although when I was there it was at the height of the Apartheid period. :eek::o

I have never been to Norway but it does look a really beautiful country that is ideally suited for cruise ships to visit but is it becoming too commercialised? What about Russia which I am guessing you might be including in the Baltic area?

I confess that I hate seeing cruise lines offering 80% discounts as it leaves me asking how long can this go on for? Will cruise lines look again at their itineraries and attempt to fill their ships at prices that offer a better return, or can they afford to carry on offering these massive discounts especially as even more cruise ships are being introduced?

Norwegian Getaway 146,600 ton 4028 passengers January 2014

Yui cruises Mein Schiff 3 99,300 2500 Spring 2014

Regal Princess 141,000 3600 June 2014

Costa Diameda 132,500 3724 Oct 2014

Quantum of the Seas 167,800 4180 Nov 2014

With just those new ships we are looking at a further 18,000 passengers berths and in 2015 we will see in excess of another availability for over 20,000 more passengers!! Is this growth sustainable, will we see cruise ships going off to that big dockyard in the sky and finally will we see more cruises in the crowded Caribbean?

Salacia..

You ask the same question as my wife!!!

you do know we can hear you when you are thinking aloud?

Although she says it with a scowl on her face especially when she is either reading or watching TV :)

I have just checked all three Cunard ships to see how popular the full World Cruise is and the only cabins still available for the FULL World Cruise are on the two ships that are not actually circumnavigating the globe. Having said that the only cabins they have left on both the QM2 and the Queen Victoria are inside cabins. All other accommodation is completely sold out at the full, advertised fare and yes, a thousand times yes.... these ships are still advertising sectors at discounted prices which makes me wonder if they have got the best value out of how they have allocated the accommodation?

Folks are talking about going down to the West Indies from May onward and at first I thought that a good idea, but when is the hurricane season for that location? I bow to you more experienced cruisers but would this period need to be taken into account? Would Cunard be better off cruising the Mediterranean during this period and possibly look at the West Indies\Panama later in the year? I may be talking a lot of tosh and the West Indies might be an option for the months of May, and June.

Does it look like Cunard have decided the long cruises are the best option for the winter months but should they consider offering a few more cabins for the full cruise at the expense of doing away with a few cabins that are dedicated to sectors of those cruises?

Just me thinking aloud and DEFINITELY not expressing an opinion.

1. America -----Where in America? We're a pretty big country.

 

2. Costa Rica---Where in Costa Rica? There are two very different sides, one on the Atlantic and one Pacific. But generally speaking, CR is pretty much a physical stop with things like hiking, rainforest trips and the like.

 

3. American Samoa----Three and four might be tender stops, so if you cannot go down steps at all, and board a tender, it's not possible.

4. Tonga

 

5. New Zealand---Again, where in NZ? Its a big country

 

6. Australia Overnight----What cities in Australia? See, knowing the cities you're going to be visiting will make a huge difference in my advice. I've been to Sydney, Melbourne, Queensland, Great Barrier Reef, Cairns and Darwin.

 

7. Papua New Guinea---See if this is a tender port for you.

 

8. Japan---What city? Japan is generally pretty easy to get around but it's very crowded and may be tough for a private car.

 

9. South Korea--What city?

 

10. China

a. Hong Kong Overnight----You could have a problem here if your ship docks in the new terminal because it will be another tender port. The old terminal was on Kowloon, right in the middle of the city, and therefore very easy to get around. Let me know if you find out which dock you're using. HK is a fantastic city with great food and culture.

 

11. Vietnam---Again, a lot depends what cities you're visiting. Ho Chi Minh City is fascinating and you could do a city tour that includes a stop at their Vietnam History museum.

 

12. Singapore Overnight-- I recommend a tour of the old city area, a trip to Raffles, and at night there's a wonderful tour of their Zoo where the animals are much more active than during the day.

 

13. Malaysia---Where in Malaysia?

 

14. Sri Lanka---This is a difficult area as there is an ongoing civil war. When I was there, I made it a point to get to the Elephant Orphanage about an hour outside Colombo. It's a fantastic trip, if you can handle it. Once off the bus, it's a bit of a walk/ride on a dirt road to get to the riverbank where the elephants come to drink.

 

15. India---Where? What city or cities? Mumbai? Cochin?

 

16. United Arab Emirates a. Dubai, United Arab Emirates Overnight--An interesting city where you go for the shopping and sightseeing. I hired a private driver to take me to a few of the sites and the souks to do some shopping. I highly recommend going to the shopping mall that has a real ski resort inside. I was also able to do a picnic in the desert, which was a tour Crystal did.

 

17. Jordan----I did a trip to Petra, but in all reality, I think it will be impossible for you. Unless you're OK with taking a private car to the area of Petra, and seeing it from a distance, the only thing I can recommend is a tour of the city.

 

18. Egypt--What city? I'm not sure if the pyramids will be OK for you, but you might want to try and find a company that handles pyramid tours for the disabled. You might want to check a company called Egypt for All. I used them a few years ago and they are trustworthy.

 

19. Italy---Where in Italy? Some places aren't easily accessible and the ride from the ports to the cities can be two hours long. If you stop in Rome, get in touch with a company called Rome In Limo. They did a very nice job for me as I was able to tell them exactly what I wanted to see. Also, if you're going to Livorno, which is the port for Florence, a private car can take you to the city center where you can get into seeing the statue of David at the Academia (make sure you get time stamped tickets for this, and any other museum where you won't have to wait in line). If you have someone to push you, the old town of Florence is easily walkable. From Santa Croce square, you can get to just about anywhere in the old city, including the museums.

 

20. Spain--What city

 

21. Portugal----I'm assuming Lisbon? If so, it's an easy city to get around and I would have a private car take you to St Jeronimos Monistery and from there to the cafe that makes the incredible and amazing pastries called Pasteis de Belem. There's also an interesting tour of the factory that makes the very famous hand made tiles that you'll see all over the city. I had a private car there and my driver just took me to all the usual sites.

 

Hope this helps.

By crikey Kitty I am an absolute thicky.

I prepared a list of countries for my doctor and another list with the cities and STOOPID me copied the wrong one BUT.........

As per my original post I CANNOT ride in an ordinary car\taxi as I have to travel in my specific wheelchair

I understand we all have to disembark at New York for so called Border Control and if this is the case the trauma of doing this will prevent me from any further travel that day.

Take 2 :rolleyes::o:o

Sat Jan 18 New York (Brooklyn), NY

Sun Jan 26 Limon, Costa Rica

Tue Feb 18 Pago Pago, American Samoa

Fri Feb 21 Nuku'alofa, Tonga

Mon Feb 24 Tauranga, New Zealand

Sat Mar 1 Sydney, Australia Overnight

Sun Mar 9 Rabaul, Papua New Guinea

Sat Mar 15 Kochi, Japan

Sat Mar 22 Busan, South Korea

Mon Mar 24 Shanghai, China

Fri Mar 28 Hong Kong Overnight

Mon Mar 31 Hanoi (Halong Bay), Vietnam

Fri Apr 4 Singapore Overnight

Sun Apr 6 Kuala Lumpur (Port Kelang), Malaysia

Thu Apr 10 Colombo, Sri Lanka

Sun Apr 13 Bombay (Mumbai), India

Thu Apr 17 Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates Friday 18th Friday Dubai, United Arab Emirates Overnight

Sat Apr 26 Petra (Aqaba), Jordan

Sun Apr 27 Sharm-El-Sheikh, Egypt

Fri May 2 Naples (Capri), Italy

Sun May 4 Palma de Mallorca, Spain

Tue May 6 Lisbon, Portugal

We already know how the react in a large gathering of people and believe me they practice that skill on a regular basis in real life. And since we, the parents, already know how they will react at least during a drill I, as a parent of a child with autism, would like to protect the passengers around me.

 

Would you mind having you and your significant other, family, and cruisemates get on either side and infront/inback of me so that your group is the only one at risk of physical injury? Is that risk really worth it for a drill? And for that matter now it will take me hours to calm him down to a normal state. My son loves cruising. This next cruise is something he has been begging for. You let me, and the other parents, worry about how to handle our kids in a really emergency but during the drill it simply isn't worth it. I assure you that most mom's/parent's of autistic children will manage better then most during that crisis situation should it ever happen because we spend our lives in a fight or flight mode on a daily basis. You tick of a mom (primary caretaker) of an autistic child and the adrenalin will flow. It is not uncommon for the primary caregiver to be diagnosed with PTSD by the time the kids are teenagers because of this.

 

The difference between a drill and reality is that in a drill you stand wall to wall with people beside and in-front of you (our kids the longest since we have usually gotten to the muster drill location early thus we have been made to go to the back row) and this can be for 5 to 15 minutes depending on smooth drill or issues. In reality you are running for you life to the nearest lifeboat and you are not standing there in your neat little rows all mushed together (it is in these confined moments when the autism is likely to take hold because of scents, touches, sounds, etc putting them into sensory overload).

PLEASE accept I fully understand your attitude toward your child but from what I have read it is now a requirement for all cruise ships to carry out these drills prior to sailing?

The master I believe has to sign off on this drill prior to the ship sailing and some cruise lines have actually disembarked passengers that have failed or refused to attend because of claimed medical conditions.

I am NOT suggesting all cruise lines take this arbitrary action and much respect to you for wanting this question answered sooner, rather than later. It is certainly possible that you might get this disspensation and I am a great believer in 'Don't ask, don't get'

HAL's muster drills now include roll calls as well as "passenger announcements that refer to the fact that failure to participate may result in disembarkation, as was the case with this incident.

The ship has a mandatory duty of care regarding emergency drills and I believe It is a requirement that ALL passengers attend and from what I have read the master has to record the fact that this has been done prior to the ship sailing.

What decision you make has absolutely NOTHING to do with me, you have asked a sensible question and hopefully you have got sensible answers from folks on the Internet but your wanting an official response from the cruise line makes far more sense.

You have rightly in my opinion tried to get an official response to your query prior to the cruise and to me the only folks that can answer this very important query are the cruise line. It would be daft to listen to someone on the Internet who suggests you cannot avoid these musters, but are they wrong to say that?

I do not however understand why you cannot get an official answer to that very sensible question, is the company ducking the question? To highlight this last statement I would like to explain why I say that.

In August 2012 I contacted Cunard to book a cruise in 2014 but before the disability department would agree to this booking they contacted the Medical Officer on the ship. When this request was made the ship was in the Greek Islands and yet they got a response within 24 hours! The senior medical officer made certain stipulations, one of which was coincidentally the fact I would have to attend any and all required muster drills!! That does NOT however mean your child would have to attend them..

My point with that statement is to simply highlight that I can see no reason why your query cannot be answered prior to embarkation.

We are all here offering opinions and hopefully you are accepting them in the spirit they are made. Hopefully you will get this clearance and let us all know the outcome?

Well Cunard could have scheduled the QM2 Spring Caribbean cruise in May and discontinue the May cruise to Norway and I do think that the QM2 is spending too much time in the Norwegian waters during the Spring & Summer months anyway. Regards,Jerry