How are "taxes and fees" defined

[cruiseco]

not to add to my post count but there may actually be a reason why some TA this- which has to do with the way they rebate some of their commission.

Commission is only paid on the basic cruise fare(excluding NCF and Taxes). To calculate the amount they will rebate they need to use this base amount and multiply it by the percent that are using as a rebate to the passenger. While they could probably do it differently now especially since computers are more powerful and easier than they once were. I can see a programmer coming and saying the easiest way to do this is to lump the non commission-able items together and someone saying yes.

 

Doing it any other way is much more complicated for them.

Since NCF varies greatly from cruise line to cruise line and different itineraries it is by far the easiest way just to do it as they do it now. Estimating it otherwise would surely make the estimate of the discount less to be on the safe side.

 

So be careful what you wish for...

 

That's part of it. It's also necessary for basic business planning. By separating out the commissionable amount (and thus the commission that will be earned on that booking) it allows them to make fairly accurate revenue projections. If I'm a TA with a client booked on a February cruise, based on my earned commission amount and the time frame in which the cruise line pays the commissions I can realistically estimate that I will have $XX commission landing in my bank account on, say. March 15th. So when I'm planning my advertising for the Spring I'll have some sort of idea how much I can spend and when. Maybe my local newspaper gives me 30 day terms so I can run an ad sometime around the middle of Feb anticipating my commission revenue will arrive at about the same time as the bill from the newspaper.

[CruiseChick00]

The taxes, fees, ncf's etc have all been explained very well by myself and many others on this board. There is no sense making something complicated that is really quite simple.

 

It is required that all cruise prices advertised in print, radio, tv, websites etc include the ncf's. How online agencies, the cruise lines, or travel agents put it on their confirmations will very depending on various things. If you have a question, you should inquire at the time of booking or even when you are being quoted and ask the agent to explain it to you if you don't understand it.

 

The cruise lines spend millions of dollars to make sure they are within the Seller of Travel Laws. The best advice I can give you is to find a travel agent that suits your needs and personality and work with that agent to your satisfaction. There is nothing wrong with questioning something you do not understand. In this case the explanation has been beat to a pulp and though you may not agree with the process, it is legal.

 

CruiseChick00

[jeph]

Cruiseco, thanks for the clarification. I was under the impression that "port charge" money was a kind of head tax earmarked specifically for various local port authorities (for operations, maintainance, improvements as needed, etc...) and thus was not theirs to keep, but I vaguely remember that lawsuit you speak of, so I guess it's become pretty much of a moot point in more recent years. I hope some lines I've cruised with-- like HAL and MSC-- keep their single-passenger-friendly policies in years to come. I don't know why more lines don't offer solo travelers a break when the ship isn't filling up with couples the way they'd hoped; three-quarters of the revenue is better than none!

[mbisson]

The only way to comparison shop is to get the total fare including taxes and fees. How they break it up before they get there is doesn't matter. The bottom line is the apple. Its the total charge. They show you that. If the total is the total how they get there won't be a consumer issue.

 

 

 

Couldn't possibly agree with you more Sid. To me, the only line that counts is that bottom one!

[smeyer418]

Couldn't possibly agree with you more Sid. To me, the only line that counts is that bottom one!

Thanks Happy Holidays to you and yours...

 

but I guess that just adds to my post count!

 

Sid

[cruiseco]

I don't know why more lines don't offer solo travelers a break when the ship isn't filling up with couples the way they'd hoped; three-quarters of the revenue is better than none!

 

Back in the day we had some great luck with one single client of ours with getting her on ships as a single at the double occupancy rate -- no supplement. She was able to travel on short notice and liked the upper-end cruise lines (her husband had been an onboard bridge professional/teacher with Cunard for about 20 years). We'd call around to our sales reps from these lines and make them that exact offer. We always seemed to find some cruise line that was willing to put a paying client in an otherwise empty cabin.

 

If you use a TA the trick is to have them skip the normal reservations department altogether -- no one there has the authority to bend the rules that much. But the agency's sales reps can make things happen when they want to.

[Cruisin_on_th_net]

*settles into chair and reads voraciously* :D

 

OK then - you want dodgey business practices and someone here enjoys tenaciously defending the rights of the ripped off people???

 

*puts up hand* "pick me" "pick me" :)

 

any advice (suggestions re further investigations etc) for an Aussie who is unhappy with misleading advertising from a large online American TA site? Does the Legislation/s mentioned (above) only apply to USA peeps re USA transactions???

 

 

Cheers :)

[smeyer418]

*settles into chair and reads voraciously* :D

 

OK then - you want dodgey business practices and someone here enjoys tenaciously defending the rights of the ripped off people???

 

*puts up hand* "pick me" "pick me" :)

 

any advice (suggestions re further investigations etc) for an Aussie who is unhappy with misleading advertising from a large online American TA site? Does the Legislation/s mentioned (above) only apply to USA peeps re USA transactions???

 

 

Cheers :)

 

 

Many states require that the TA register or be licensed. You could report them to the state that they are licensed or registered in BUT most cruise lines prohibit US based TA's from selling to people not domiciled in the US. They don't seem to enforce this however although one cruise line(I think its RC) has told its TA's not to do this any more or risk losing their TA status. In the past some TA's wrongfully sold resident rate cruises to non-residents until the cruise lines cracked down on the practice. I think that New Zealand requires a TA to be licensed to sell to Kiwi's but I don't think its being enforced but I don't know about Australia. So if you complain about what they are doing don't be surprised if they just stop selling to Australia.

That is my point by the way. The reason you want to use them is they charge much less than your Australian based TA's. Its not because when you book with them they don't give you the total(including all costs except tips) before you book-whether they show it as part of the base fare or in the taxes and fees.

I don't think anyone would disagree that it is wrong if they didn't disclose this before you finally booked but tried to add it after telling you the total.

The internet has made comparison easy and that there is really no difference whether they add it as fees or its in the base rate as long as it is disclosed before you hit the key that says purchase. Its like buying anything on the internet....you want the full price including shipping. You don't want to be told the shipping after you make the purchase with no right to cancel.

You can disagree if you want but it really is a distinction without a difference when they add it as long as its before you are bound to pay for it.

 

I don't think anyone defended the "right" of a TA to rip anyone off. The disagreement was whether the total of the base fare should included the port charges like the cruise lines do(although they add taxes before you purchase) or whether it was ok to add them in the taxes and fees lines like some TA's do, all again before you make a final decision to purchase through them. Whether its in one line or another in my view doesn't matter as long as the total is disclosed before you have any obligation to purchase. I don't see that is immoral behavior or even questionable behavior...just different. the fact that it is different doesn't make it right or wrong....although obviously at least some people see this as a real distinction...maybe because they are math challenged.

[Cruisin_on_th_net]

thanks for the reply smeyer. I think because I didn't really specify my "gripe" your response in not actually my issue, so for me, I still believe their practices are dodgey. (btw I do agree with what you say; as long as the total cost is shown before purchasing, then the consumer has the knowledge to make the choice re purchase etc)

 

My issue is the company I have dealt with, was able to "sell" the cruise to me at the discounted price with out disclosing that I needed to have residency in the USA. I have access to a USA credit card, and would have used it to purchase this particular product before even trying my 2x Aus CC's. The address I would have put in (with their site stating an American address) would have been the Seattle hotel we were in before departing for the cruise. (I would have thought nothing out of the ordinary with them requiring a USA address as I'd have assumed they needed it re contact for the last minute!)

 

No - where could I find stipulations about the prices being discounted with "strings attached." It was only from this site that I realised there could / would be a problem. I emailed them to check it out, and received clarification that it was indeed a residency special, and a "sorry for the inconvenience" no intention to change their misleading site or make mention of the conditions. They were quite comfortable in their belief that a US billing address for the CC and the US request for an address would weed out the non- residence, and therefore exonerate them from blame.

 

My 6ft2 hubby would have considered it "more than an inconvenience :o when they expected another $3g outta us at the gang plank. I don't believe us harping on about not knowing the sale conditions would have helped us embark in that situation, so we'd either pay up or p. off. I wonder whether our insurance would have covered us? Considering the associated costs in airfares and accommodation, it really would have been a horrible experience.

 

I really think they have an obligation to disclose this sort of information. I was only suspicious as I'd read ON THIS SITE :) that there is such a thing as resident's specials, and that people were required to prove residency before embarking the ship. Other wise I would have had nfi, booked it thinking how clever I was to get a bargain (LOL!!!) and been stranded at the port (in tears and tantrums!!!!) (not a good look!!!)

[smeyer418]

If someone has a US issued credit card and US address, how would they know they aren't a US resident? You can be a US resident without being a citizen and there an awful large number of people here illegally( I don't think that is so much a problem in Australia is it?). We have tons of non-citizens here legally too. They assume that you will input your permanent-residence address. So pretty much does everyone else. They probably are unaware that non-US people can have a US issued credit card(is this legal any more for a new accounts under the newer US requirement for financial institutions?-you can't open a bank account in the US without a lot of paperwork-id and address requirements).

Not to quibble but they aren't asking for a local address for contact. they are looking for the address you call your home. I assume actually that you know that and you use the US address because the site won't process your reservation without it- an assumption on my part for sure.

 

What happened in the past and was dodgy was that the TA sold a state resident rate to someone who they knew did not meet the requirement for that rate. The simple example was that someone from NY was sold a rate that was for Florida residents only. The TA knew that the NYer was NOT from Florida(even though they may stay at a hotel before leaving). That was wrong. But if you have a US address and a US credit card-even though all the documents will be delivered by email-and the TA is unaware that you really reside in Australia...I am not sure what the TA did wrong. Its not the same at all. The first is an intent to deceive. The second is without knowledge- actual or constructive(I do agree that intentionally being ignorant on purpose is the same as actual knowledge)..

[cruiseco]

 

What happened in the past and was dodgy was that the TA sold a state resident rate to someone who they knew did not meet the requirement for that rate. The simple example was that someone from NY was sold a rate that was for Florida residents only. The TA knew that the NYer was Australia...I am not sure what the TA did wrong. Its not the same at all. The first is an intent to deceive. The second is without knowledge- actual or constructive(I do agree that intentionally being ignorant on purpose is the same as actual knowledge)..NOT from Florida(even though they may stay at a hotel before leaving). That was wrong. But if you have a US address and a US credit card-even though all the documents will be delivered by email-and the TA is unaware that you really reside in

 

Sometimes it's not even that clear-cut. Shortly after 9/11 our staff had a meeting with a regional VP of sales for Royal Caribbean. He explicitly told us to ignore the residency restrictions on these deals. He said that at the time the port staff that normally checks these things had been instructed to just ignore it and other special deals. 45 years old and booked on a senior rate? No problem. CA resident booked on a Idaho resident rate? No problem. Just do whatever you have to do to get people on the ships. My thoughts that those in upper management weren't going to let something insignificant like rules and policies get in the way of them making their year-end bonus. They've got boat payment to make.

 

Even under the unusual circumstances of the times it stunk (stank?). It's thinking like that that puts it into the mind of many TAs that these types of restrictions are more of a suggestion than anything else. "Hey, it someone gets turned away at the pier we'll deal with it then. For now let's make some money!" Shortsighted and stupid.

[blindrid]

What difference does it may as long as the bottom line is the same or less than the cruise line :D

 

+1 you beat me to it. The OP trying to compare this to the Truth in Lending laws escapes me a bit as it has nothing to do with this.

 

In comparing cruises, you always have to go to the "booking page" to see the total price. When looking at cruises, the cruise lines always throw the cheapest price at you so if you want an inside, porthole then you can have the price so one always needs to look anyway.

 

I agree with the PP's that there is nothing illegal with this and a wise consumer would always look at the bottom line. Base fare comparisons are pretty much worthless.

[smeyer418]

Sometimes it's not even that clear-cut. Shortly after 9/11 our staff had a meeting with a regional VP of sales for Royal Caribbean. He explicitly told us to ignore the residency restrictions on these deals. He said that at the time the port staff that normally checks these things had been instructed to just ignore it and other special deals. 45 years old and booked on a senior rate? No problem. CA resident booked on a Idaho resident rate? No problem. Just do whatever you have to do to get people on the ships. My thoughts that those in upper management weren't going to let something insignificant like rules and policies get in the way of them making their year-end bonus. They've got boat payment to make.

 

Even under the unusual circumstances of the times it stunk (stank?). It's thinking like that that puts it into the mind of many TAs that these types of restrictions are more of a suggestion than anything else. "Hey, it someone gets turned away at the pier we'll deal with it then. For now let's make some money!" Shortsighted and stupid.

 

 

I don't have a problem with someone who issues the rules saying the rules are suspended(and given 9-11 I could understand why) but shouldn't then at least give notice of the suspension. Its not like these tariff's have to be filed for approval.

There was a filing requirement for freight charges(I am not sure if there still is- there was a policy reason for this to prevent companies giving unavailable preferences to someone else-it a file and use requirement- nothing else- you filed it and that was the rate). The companies ignored the rules. One of the companies went bankrupt and the trustee sued to collect the difference between the filed tariff and the lower amount actually charged. The US Supreme Court required that they pay the higher amount.

[cruiseco]

I don't have a problem with someone who issues the rules saying the rules are suspended(and given 9-11 I could understand why) but shouldn't then at least give notice of the suspension. [/QOUTE]

 

They should have just officially suspended these discounts (senior, regional, whatever) and cut fares for everyone to the point they could fill the ships. Doing this with a wink and a nod only to favored agencies in their region and not for all agencies was just asking for trouble. And since there was no notice that they had again tightened up the check-in procedures later on there were many folks getting a surprise when they got to the pier although usually just a severe warning. But a surprise none the less. Just a lousy way to do business. Open and honest with everything in writing is always better.

 

 

 

One of the companies went bankrupt and the trustee sued to collect the difference between the filed tariff and the lower amount actually charged. The US Supreme Court required that they pay the higher amount.

 

Ouch.

[Cruisin_on_th_net]

They assume that you will input your permanent-residence address. So pretty much does everyone else.

 

Not to quibble but they aren't asking for a local address for contact. they are looking for the address you call your home. I assume actually that you know that and you use the US address because the site won't process your reservation without it- an assumption on my part for sure.

 

and EVERYONE knows that the US address isn't for contact how????? Do people look into their crystal balls or do you lend yours out for that express purpose???? *shrugs*

 

I'm not presumptuous enough to ASSUME that I KNOW how an overseas online TA company operates. ;) Yes the site won't process the booking with out a US address. But still ......without that crystal ball and knowledge of overseas companies and how they operate, there is no way of knowing what the purpose is. (Except as stated previously, because I've been researching flat out for the trip, I've stumbled across the non residence issue.)

 

Having booked previous trips and been asked for local contact details (ie NOT my home address) it's nothing I would think out of the ordinary for, nor would it ring any alarm bells.

 

Again, with out my crystal ball, how do I know how they check people for addresses on embarkation? I keep reading here (CC site) where a valid D/L is all that is required, and clearly we don't have one, so I am assuming we can't prove residency.

 

I'm not sure if I'm prepared to gamble 2x 3-5g of airfares, 2x $3.5g of cabins + tours + accommodation, food and transfers pre n post and then get slugged another 2x $1g on embarkation, not to mention the humiliation at being stopped and up charged.

 

But from how I interpret your post; providing I can give a US address at time of booking (tick that box the hotel is accepted) and I can charge the cruise with a US billed CC (*eye roll* the responding email stated nothing about the CC having to be in the cruiser's name even- so that box is ticked also) technically I can travel as a US resident???? Why do I keep reading here about D/L being sufficient ID??? if you don't need it, as you've already paid for your cruise with your "US billed addressed CC" and you punched in some (dodgey) US address. Seems like the rest of the world can be cruising rather cheaply too :) What a great loophole, can't believe NO ONE has ever come up with this idea before me.......... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

Seems like this particular company is making a lot of assumptions It appears my expectations of a reputable company operating under clear cut and transparent processes isn't considered dodgey at all. :rolleyes:

 

How hard or ethical can it be to stipulate sales conditions? (That is my point btw!)

 

Or maybe I don't get it, cause I'm just Math challenged

[smeyer418]

They assume that you will input your permanent-residence address. So pretty much does everyone else.

 

Not to quibble but they aren't asking for a local address for contact. they are looking for the address you call your home. I assume actually that you know that and you use the US address because the site won't process your reservation without it- an assumption on my part for sure.

 

and EVERYONE knows that the US address isn't for contact how????? Do people look into their crystal balls or do you lend yours out for that express purpose???? *shrugs*

 

I'm not presumptuous enough to ASSUME that I KNOW how an overseas online TA company operates. ;) Yes the site won't process the booking with out a US address. But still ......without that crystal ball and knowledge of overseas companies and how they operate, there is no way of knowing what the purpose is. (Except as stated previously, because I've been researching flat out for the trip, I've stumbled across the non residence issue.)

 

Having booked previous trips and been asked for local contact details (ie NOT my home address) it's nothing I would think out of the ordinary for, nor would it ring any alarm bells.

 

Again, with out my crystal ball, how do I know how they check people for addresses on embarkation? I keep reading here (CC site) where a valid D/L is all that is required, and clearly we don't have one, so I am assuming we can't prove residency.

 

I'm not sure if I'm prepared to gamble 2x 3-5g of airfares, 2x $3.5g of cabins + tours + accommodation, food and transfers pre n post and then get slugged another 2x $1g on embarkation, not to mention the humiliation at being stopped and up charged.

 

But from how I interpret your post; providing I can give a US address at time of booking (tick that box the hotel is accepted) and I can charge the cruise with a US billed CC (*eye roll* the responding email stated nothing about the CC having to be in the cruiser's name even- so that box is ticked also) technically I can travel as a US resident???? Why do I keep reading here about D/L being sufficient ID??? if you don't need it, as you've already paid for your cruise with your "US billed addressed CC" and you punched in some (dodgey) US address. Seems like the rest of the world can be cruising rather cheaply too :) What a great loophole, can't believe NO ONE has ever come up with this idea before me.......... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

Seems like this particular company is making a lot of assumptions It appears my expectations of a reputable company operating under clear cut and transparent processes isn't considered dodgey at all. :rolleyes:

 

How hard or ethical can it be to stipulate sales conditions? (That is my point btw!)

 

Or maybe I don't get it, cause I'm just Math challenged

 

 

many people in the US who live in big cities actually don't have drivers licenses(especially from NYCity). Your passport which you can bring instead does NOT contain any address. The TA's know this. If you input your address as the address that they are to use, they have no way of knowing what the address is. But most people who program their computer just assume its your home address-maybe the assumption is wrong but it is still the assumption many make.

Don't you in fact use the US TA because they charge less than a local Kiwi one?

You also already know that you can't use that site without a US address and credit card....so in my opinion its you that are being disingenuous. Is it possible that the US Ta knows---yes but it is just as likely as you are gaming the system.

 

You know if it is the ONLY place to put in an address and doesn't say enter both your permanent address and local address the programmer made an assumption that you only had one.

 

If they ask both your permanent address and any local address and allowed the booking based on the local one maybe you can argue otherwise but it is just as likely and maybe more so that they just assume one address-the main one- will be entered.

 

In the US you are NOT required to carry an ID. You are only required to carry the passport or other ID when trying to get back into the US. There is no requirement for a National ID. Each state however requires a driver of a car to have a license and have that with them but there are many people in the US who even today don't have licenses and don't drive. You don't need an id to get on Greyhound.(the intercity bus service)...

[Cruisin_on_th_net]

thanks smeyer for the info re NY & D/L's that is a huge difference from what I am used to.

 

I had a long laborious response typed out - trying to "explain" my situation. (so you could understand my issue) Then I realised that I don't HAVE to explain myself to you or anyone else. I know the circumstances around the booking of this particular web based TA, and based on the assumptions and statements you keep making in your posts, you don't. I'm not going to waste my enjoyment with this site pointing out your thinking errors.

 

And bottom line for me -there is NOTHING you can post that will convince me that the behaviour of this TA is /was ethical in their dealings with me, (as I won't be providing you with all the facts surrounding it!) so why bother trying to convince you other wise?

 

I appreciate the information you've provided, and I'll just make sure I find the "dearest" local TA, (that would be aussie NOT kiwi LOL) and book with them. It appears from your last post that I am an anomaly for wanting to shop around and get the best prices for an expensive Overseas trip!!!!!!!

 

Cheers and thanks for the info you've provided so far. Minus the sanctimonious digs in some of your posts, your posts have been appreciated and informative to a non US native.

 

I'll keep enjoying the boards and the wonderful people and the solid advice I am coming across. :)