Greek Economy could affect travel plans

[TLCOhio]

I just want to say again what a wonderfully informative and useful thread this is, especially with the contributions of Terry (from the US perspective) and Nick in Athens, as well as all the anecdotal reports from recent travelers to Greece. I'm not headed to Athens this year, but I would certainly suggest reading the recent posts should be "required" for anyone headed there soon.

 

Appreciate the kind comments from the super-wise Cynthia. It has been interesting to read the various news stories on these shifting situations in Greece. I have tried to only post those that are credible and add some degree of understanding for a complex financial mess. Nick and others have offered excellent background.

 

From the BBC within the past hour or so, they have this headline: "Greece rating cut by Moody's amid default warning" with these highlights: "Credit rating agency Moody's has cut Greece's rating, warning that a planned debt swap would constitute a default. The rating was cut another three notches from Caa1 to Ca - just two more notches shy of a default rating. 'The announced EU programme... implies that the probability of a distressed exchange, and hence a default, on Greek government bonds is virtually 100%,' the agency said."

 

If I am understanding correctly, they are saying this latest "fix" is only a "band-aid" that has not really fixed or solved these financial challenges. Moody's wants to make sure those holding or buying these various financial instruments from Greece are not assuming or claiming that they are worth what was advertised or claimed . . . hoped!! The story also noted: "The downgrade means Moody's has followed its counterpart Standard & Poor's in giving Greece the lowest rating of any country it rates in the world, falling below Cuba and Ecuador."

 

Ouch!!! That's sinking really low!!

 

Full story at:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14271936

 

THANKS! Terry in Ohio

[nick_arch]

I would have absolutely no concerns on the rating by international rating organisations, like Fitch or Moody's.

These are ratings that may reflect the general situation at some certain point, or provide a general ranking of "trustworthiness" but little is the amount these ratings affect everyday life in Greece or a visitor's experience, at least at this certain point we are in.

 

To put it simply, it is a common belief that Greece may finally not be able to get back in the intl markets, now, or in a year, or in 2016 and so on. That's why you see this complicated "support" mechanism where all are in, all are supporting ( EU, IMF ) but all are keeping their distances from the hot potato.

 

So, basically Greece's rating is the lowest ( i think ) all around the world now.

( Oh, i forgot, "D" is also available. We still haven't been awarded this one - i am just being sarcastic ).

 

Nevertheless, what i 'd draw from these ratings would be their consistency. Or the duration of the whole thing.

Greece is nearly two years now in some kind of support. October 2011 it will be two years since the whole thing flopped.

 

What did change in our lives here may be an indication of how things change in these ocassions, if a similar one ever existed:

 

1. People still walk, birds still fly, sky is still blue most of the days, sun is up there. People go out, have fun, get married, love, cry, laugh. So, life is still running.

2. Some prices have gone up, some prices have gone down. Most painful is the rise on the oil ( gasoline ) price which is now around 1.65 euros per litre. I may be doing a rough conversion but that's appx. a whopping $8.50 per gallon that would make an American start screaming. Good thing that cars are tiny here. You have nowhere to park a SUV in downtown.

3. Restaurant prices are down. Athens hotels prices a bit down but i assume they will get lower a bit more. Pre - crisis we 'd go out and dine for 20 - 25 euros per person ( appx. $60 for a two persons dinner ), now we try to dine in 10? 8? sometimes 6 euros per person. That makes a sum of around $17 - 25 for a dinner for two. Quality is the same but prices are lower due to competition.

4. Property tax is much much higher / Income tax marginally higher.

5. An unexpected huge growth in exports ( +32%, first quarter of 2011 ) has been monitored but a collapse in domestic tax income is also monitored. It seems that a part of Greece is trying to get to be more energetic, more productive, while another part is still in hypnosis

6. Tourist arrivals are up, +20% compared to last year.

7. Tax evasion is reported to remain the same : (

 

 

Trying to put things in a simple manner, Greece is hit by a huge fiscal tsunami ( i am afraid mainly created by Greece itslef ) but life still goes on. Some parts of Greek companies are starting having a bigger speed and a more productive tempo.

 

What would worry me right now is reforms and how fast these are running. If we are to stand on our own feet sometime, neither the European Union is running fast, nor Greece is doing the necessary reforms fast. Except if we consider a turtle fast.

 

On the other hand, it is always difficult to go on reforms that are un-popular and cause a familiar response: strike. Moreover when parts of these reforms are making belts to tighten more, it's not sure you 'll see more tax revenue.

These strikes have really been still small numbered. I think it's only 4 or 5 days of strike up to now from the start of the year ( meaning large scale strikes that affect site closures or airport and generate wide scale disruptions). These were in their majority 24 hrs and midweek except the recent taxi strike.

 

We may see more strike action in the future and this is the only thing that can severely disrupt a cruise visitor's itinerary.

Safety - wise i really see no problem but a strike is something that is not easy to overcome or work around when someone is here for 4, 6, 8 hours ( read: cruise ship passenger ). Whether we 'll see more strike action or whether this will spread in weekends or not it is difficult to know before hand.

 

Right now, Greece is on a crossroad, having all options open. Either Greeks will proceed in the necessary reforms to transform their economy to a more free market with all that this dicates and causes, or they will walk backwards to a protected economy, with all that this dicates and causes.

 

Staying ON the crossroad and not making any decisions may seem as a balancing way to handle the crisis but it may also be a sure road to stagnation.

[nick_arch]

Commenting on the gas prices in Greece, i 'd also underline that gas prices are in general very much higher than those in United States of America.

Europe has extremely high taxes on gas.

 

A month now, Greece has the most expensive gas, followed though by Holland and Belgium, near enough:

 

 

Greece: 1,714€/ltr

Holland: 1,705 €/ltr

Belgium: 1,596 €/ltr

Holland: 1,566€/ltr

Portugal: 1,556 €/ltr

Germany: 1,515 €/ltr

France: 1,515/ltr

Ireland: 1,489€/ltr

 

Roughly speaking, multiply these by 5 1/2 to see gas price in $ per gallon. This is a rough conversion.

 

Wondered anytime why cars are usually so small in Europe? :eek:

[TLCOhio]

Hi Everyone, we're recently back from the July 13-25 cruise on the Solstice that missed out on Athens due to the strike. We instead went to Crete where the cab drivers were also striking. We had heard that the RC ship anticipated the strike and made arrangements to bus passengers from the port to the downtown area, but taxis blocked the entry/exit. This also made it unsafe for passengers to walk to the train, so RC declined to allow passengers to disembark and they instead spent the day at sea. Given these events the Solstice staff detoured to Crete. The Crete taxi drivers were also striking, but they appeared to be having a quiet protest that was quite different than Athens. Bus service from the port to downtown ran without a hitch. We just didn't see any taxis anywhere. Unfortunately due to the short notice there were minimal excursions available, so we didn't have the opportunity to see or visit the sites that people typically plan for when they visit Crete. We did have a nice time walking around the port area, which was very pretty.

 

Appreciate the great details and added background from nick_arch. Very well done and helpful in understanding better these crazy situations there in Greece!!!

 

Above is some added info from Kathy on the Solstice about how her planned day in Athens got adjusted and changed. It is too bad that they were not able to see the great history and architectural sites in Athens. Crete has its options, but due to the short timing there, the right options were not able to have been all put together in an ideal manner. Hopefully, there will be another time for her and others to visit Athens and see its great places, the Plaka, etc.

 

From one Athens media report today, they have this headline: "Government and Taxi Owners Seeking Compromise" with these highlights: "In a surprise move just before 7 AM local time this morning, about 2,000 taxi drivers blocked some of the access roads to the Piraeus port, once more creating inconveniences for tourists arriving who managed to reach the exits with the help of port workers. Meanwhile, newspapers report that within the ranks of taxi drivers there is the desire for a 'freeze' on strikes, since the latter has been underway for more than 10 days, creating economic problems for many taxi drivers. "

 

This story also noted: "Transport Minister Yiannis Ragousis, said he would meet union representatives at 11 a.m. on Friday. Ragousis is also to meet representatives from tour operators and travel agencies to hear their grievances about the negative impact on tourism of the taxi drivers’ action."

 

Full story at:

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2011/07/28/government-and-taxi-owners-seeking-compromise/

 

Hopefully they can get things solved, quickly, in Athens and for these other Greek ports.

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

Just back from a June 7-19 Solstice cruise from Barcelona that had stops in Villefranche, ports near Pisa and Rome, Naples, Kotor, Venice and Dubrovnik. Enjoyed great weather and a wonderful trip. Dozens of wonderful visuals with key highlights, tips, comments, etc. These postings are now at 24,855 views for this live/blog re-cap on our first sailing with Celebrity and much on wonderful Barcelona. Check these postings and added info at:

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1426474

[TLCOhio]

Keep in mind that this is just a huge fiscal crisis. No more, no less. Other parts of the world are in much worse shape. We still have a good climate here, a photogenic country, genuinely optimistic temper, good food and still some chance to fix things ( the most important ).

 

The above is an excellent summary, viewpoint and philosophy by Nick_Arch, who lives in Athens. This helps give some important background on ALL that has been happening in Greece these days. PLUS, it's true. We loved our visit to the nicer, historic parts of Athens, what we saw in looping around the Peloponnesian Peninsula and in the three Greek islands we visited in June 2006. Lots of great pluses and things to see and do in Greece. Look forward to seeing more of Greece in the future, including getting to Santorini and a few other great Greek places.

 

From Business Week/Bloomberg News this morning, they have this interesting, indepth story with this headline to explain what has been happening the past two weeks: "Striking Greek Taxis Demand Government Pay for Illegal Licenses". Here are some of the story highlights: "Unable to inherit a family business, he borrowed from the bank and paid 100,000 euros ($143,010) for a license on the black market. Now he says he may fail to meet his loan obligations as the Greek government deregulates the taxi industry and opens the door to new cars taking fares as part of its commitment to a free market. Thousands of drivers like 31-year-old Giorgos blocked approaches to airports and disrupted ferry services in recent strikes while demanding to be reimbursed for their illegal licenses."

 

The story details how a large number of professions and trades were protected by what is called a "Soviet-style" process. Their writer in Athens gives lots of key "tradition" and background in the story. Here is another highlight: "Greece has until this month shielded everyone from taxi drivers and hairdressers to pharmacists and lawyers from competition and falling prices. That protection is now giving way to the social and economic changes in new laws promised in return for the debt relief by the European Union so Greece won’t lose the euro as a shared currency. More than 150 occupations that were closed to new entrants until the legislation went into effect on July 2 also included antique dealers, locksmiths, real estate agents and print media delivery services."

 

Full story at:

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-07-28/striking-greek-taxis-demand-government-pay-for-illegal-licenses.html

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

Just back from a June 7-19 Solstice cruise from Barcelona that had stops in Villefranche, ports near Pisa and Rome, Naples, Kotor, Venice and Dubrovnik. Enjoyed great weather and a wonderful trip. Dozens of wonderful visuals with key highlights, tips, comments, etc. These postings are now at 25,123 views for this live/blog re-cap on our first sailing with Celebrity and much on wonderful Barcelona. Check these postings and added info at:

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1426474

[TLCOhio]

From an Athens news source yesterday, they have this headline: "Taxi Drivers Continue Strikes after Fruitless Meeting with Minister of Transport" with these highlights: "Cab drivers met with the Greek Minister of Transport, Yannis Ragousis, on Friday, 29 July. However, the meeting proved fruitless. As the head of the Attica cab driver’s union claimed, 'the Minister was open to dialogue but refused to make commitments.' The Minister announced that the deregulation of the sector will take place as planned. Consequently, cab drivers will continue the strikes which have caused problems in the tourism sector and have divided the members of the government party.."

 

Full story at:

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2011/07/29/taxi-drivers-continue-strikes-after-fruitless-meeting-with-minister-of-transport/

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

Just back from a June 7-19 Solstice cruise from Barcelona that had stops in Villefranche, ports near Pisa and Rome, Naples, Kotor, Venice and Dubrovnik. Enjoyed great weather and a wonderful trip. Dozens of wonderful visuals with key highlights, tips, comments, etc. These postings are now at 25,451 views for this live/blog re-cap on our first sailing with Celebrity and much on wonderful Barcelona. Check these postings and added info at:

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1426474

[vjmatty]

Well that is a bit discouraging.....I sent an email to the car rental place in Corfu and asked if we might as a backup plan meet someplace other than right at the pier with the car. I don't mind walking a distance to get past the taxi blockage to retrieve it if that becomes necessary.

[TLCOhio]

From the Guardian in London late last night, they have this headline: "Greece debt crisis: The 'we won't pay' anti-austerity revolt" by their reporter in Thessaloniki with these highlights: "Greeks are more distrustful than ever of their political class and its ability to lead them out of the crippling financial crisis. Polls show growing contempt for all parties and the discredited political system. Unemployment is at a record high of 16% – far higher for young people. Those lucky enough to still have a job have suffered dramatic salary cuts and tax increases."

 

This is an interesting look at some of the ways these various issues are playing out for Greek workers, businesses, etc. Most of these issues/questions do not seem to adversely impact many tourists. It just raises questions on how, when and if "ALL" of this mess gets resolved and fixed in Greece.

 

Added story highlights: "Doctors and nurses recently staged walkouts over hospital cuts. Taxi drivers have hobbled Greece with strikes in the past two weeks, protesting at government plans to open up the industry. Their tactics included blocking ports and opening the Acropolis ticket office to let tourists in free. Crucially, Greece's long-running 'civil disobedience' movement, where ordinary citizens refuse to pay for anything from road tolls and bus tickets to extra doctors' charges, has not fizzled out in the summer holidays. The 'We Won't Pay' offensive is championed as the purest form of 'people's power'. Organisers warn it could gain renewed force in September as the government launches a new round of financial restraint."

 

Full story at:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/31/greece-debt-crisis-anti-austerity

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

Just back from a June 7-19 Solstice cruise from Barcelona that had stops in Villefranche, ports near Pisa and Rome, Naples, Kotor, Venice and Dubrovnik. Enjoyed great weather and a wonderful trip. Dozens of wonderful visuals with key highlights, tips, comments, etc. These postings are now at 25,730 views for this live/blog re-cap on our first sailing with Celebrity and much on wonderful Barcelona. Check these postings and added info at:

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1426474

[TLCOhio]

From the Associated Press newswire within the past hour today, they have this headline: "Greek taxi strike ends after blockades, new licenses delayed" with these highlights: "Striking Greek taxi owners on Friday ended a nearly three-week protest that has rattled the economically battered country's essential tourism industry. Representatives of taxi owners associations Friday voted 13-4 on Friday to end the crippling strike after municipal authorities agreed to delay issuing new licenses until a new round of negotiations between the protesters and the government, expected later this month, has ended. In Athens, taxis resumed work immediately, easing problems at the capital's international airport, which is also accessible by bus and metro services."

 

Full story at:

http://www.newser.com/article/d9otvpj80/greek-taxi-strike-ends-after-blockades-new-licenses-delayed.html

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

Just back from a June 7-19 Solstice cruise from Barcelona that had stops in Villefranche, ports near Pisa and Rome, Naples, Kotor, Venice and Dubrovnik. Enjoyed great weather and a wonderful trip. Dozens of wonderful visuals with key highlights, tips, comments, etc. These postings are now at 26,774 views for this live/blog re-cap on our first sailing with Celebrity and much on wonderful Barcelona. Check these postings and added info at:

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1426474

[TLCOhio]

The serious and real "ISSUES" in Greece have bubbled up more in the past week as the euro pressures continue, etc. Most strikes are announced in advance as reflected in the last two story links that say the next strike in Greece will be on Oct. 6.

 

From the Reuters news wire in the last 30 minutes, they have this headline: "Greek cabinet meets to decide more austerity steps" with these highlights: "Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou chairs a cabinet meeting on Sunday to decide on more austerity measures to secure continued funding under an international bailout. EU and IMF inspectors are holding a conference call with Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos on Monday to hear what measures Greece will take to plug this year's shortfall in the budget before they release an 8 billion euro ($11 billion) loan tranche it needs by October before it runs out of money. Papandreou canceled a planned visit to the United States on Saturday to deal with the deepening crisis at home as euro zone partners made clear further funding for the debt-ridden country would hinge on adhering to agreed fiscal targets."

 

From Time Magazine yesterday, they have this headline: "It’s Time to Admit the Euro Has Failed" with these highlights: "The collapse of the Euro, one way or another, is now inevitable, in my view. When it happens, banks around the world will be shaken and stock markets will plummet. Smart investors should be braced for this — and also prepared to take advantage of bargains created by any selloff."

 

Full stories at:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/18/us-greece-economy-idUSTRE78H19R20110918

http://moneyland.time.com/2011/09/12/its-time-to-admit-the-euro-has-failed/?iid=pf-main-editpicks

http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=458738&version=1&template_id=39&parent_id=21

http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/greek-labour-union-calls-24-hour-strike-on-oct-6

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

Recently back from a June 7-19 Solstice cruise from Barcelona that had stops in Villefranche, ports near Pisa and Rome, Naples, Kotor, Venice and Dubrovnik. Enjoyed great weather and a wonderful trip. Dozens of wonderful visuals with key highlights, tips, comments, etc., on these postings. We are now over 39,742 views for this live/blog re-cap on our first sailing with Celebrity and much on wonderful Barcelona. Check these postings and added info at:

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1426474

[Bastet]

I am due to be in Athens (Piraeus) on Oct. 6th aboard the Star Princess. I wonder whether Princess will pick another port or just stay at sea if the strike happens. I'm assuming that a general strike will affect the ports as well as mass transit. :(

[TLCOhio]

I am due to be in Athens (Piraeus) on Oct. 6th aboard the Star Princess. I wonder whether Princess will pick another port or just stay at sea if the strike happens. I'm assuming that a general strike will affect the ports as well as mass transit. :(

 

Sorry about your timing. I'm sure that Princess is working on their options and potentials right now. Strikes are not good, BUT, they know in advance, in most cases, when they will happen, allowing time for adjustments. Some cruise lines have flip the dates for stopping in Athens with another port stop. A few days before you leave, you might check with Princess. Do you have a travel agent? Have them be bugging people for added info.

 

From the BBC in the last few hours, they have this headline: "Pity the Greeks" with these highlights from their Europe Editor on site in Athens: "Europe is out of sympathy with Greece. It is the country that threatens the dream of 'ever closer union'. It is blamed for undermining the very existence of the single currency. The White House frets that the country could endanger the world economy. Greeks are caricatured as lazy and feckless. Europe's leaders have lost patience and turned up the threats. The message is clear. The Greek government must either live up to commitments to reduce its deficit, or the next tranche of bail-out money will be withheld."

 

Lots of interesting details and background in this story. This includes: "Greece is close to that tipping point where almost whatever new austerity measure is implemented will fail. Significant sections of society are in a state of resistance. There is a sense that Greeks have been pushed close to a tipping point. Many Greeks are humiliated. They watch their leaders take their orders from outsiders. They no longer have a say, or so it seems. Unknown inspectors from such organisations as the EU and the IMF decide their future."

 

His conclusion is: "So, pity the Greeks. Even if they avoid default they face years of austerity. Many would prefer a default, with all its unknown dangers. It is a country living on a dangerous edge where many doubt the measures that the government is introducing."

 

The Wall Street Journal has an interesting item on . . . "Don't Discount the Military" as to its role as this situation plays out during the coming months. This column notes these items of Greek/area history: "Political instability and rebellion have stretched across the Mediterranean’s North African coastline and up to Syria, but why should they stop there? Why should they not stretch to Greece, for example It’s worth remembering that Greek generals staged a coup in 1967 and then ran the country as a junta. Democracy wasn’t restored until 1975."

 

Also note the below NY TImes story on the overall Europe situation and how Greece plays a pivot role.

 

Full stories at:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14972539

http://blogs.wsj.com/source/2011/09/19/greece-dont-discount-role-of-military/?mod=google_news_blog

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/19/business/global/19iht-euro19.html?_r=1&hp

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

Recently back from a June 7-19 Solstice cruise from Barcelona that had stops in Villefranche, ports near Pisa and Rome, Naples, Kotor, Venice and Dubrovnik. Enjoyed great weather and a wonderful trip. Dozens of wonderful visuals with key highlights, tips, comments, etc., on these postings. We are now over 40,130 views for this live/blog re-cap on our first sailing with Celebrity and much on wonderful Barcelona. Check these postings and added info at:

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1426474

 

For details and visuals, etc., from our July 1-16, 2010, Norway Coast/Fjords/Arctic Circle cruise experience from Copenhagen on the Silver Cloud, check out this posting. This posting is now at 50,941 views.

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1227923

 

Appreciate those who have “tuned in” for these two posts. Don’t be shy and feel free to comment and/or ask any questions of interest.

[Fblack]

Today, some financial analysts (Nouriel Roubini) are basically telling Greece to default. Some are saying that Greece will run out of money to pay it's bills soon. So if they run short, who do they pay?

 

9/19/2011: Greece: Is this the end game?

 

"Greece is quickly running out of the cash it needs to keep the lights on as the latest lifeline from the rest of Europe remains just out of reach....Greece is expected to run out of the cash it needs to fund all of its operations in about a month without more bailout money. ..."

 

http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/19/news/international/greece_default/

 

and

 

9/19/2011: Greece Seeks Further Cuts

 

"Now, with Greece unlikely to meet its deficit targets this year, the troika has upped the target for public-sector layoffs to 100,000—demanding that the government proceed with its promised public-sector cutbacks while rescinding all new hiring done in the past 20 months."...The growing pressure on Greek households and businesses from increasing austerity measures has lifted political tensions in Athens,.. ."

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904106704576578292928402876.html

[TLCOhio]

Today, some financial analysts (Nouriel Roubini) are basically telling Greece to default. Some are saying that Greece will run out of money to pay it's bills soon. So if they run short, who do they pay?

 

Sadly, default does seem more likely as the "bail-out" mode for the Greek leaders to take. There will be a "bluff poker" game going on this week to see who blinks first in the battle between the German and other Europe leaders versus the leadership of Greece. Not a pretty picture to watch happen. Risky for both sides . . . and other countries.

 

From CNN within the last 30 minutes today, they have this headline: "Greek default: What it would mean" with these highlights: "Experts agree it's almost certain that Greece will not be able to pay all of its debts. But if the country does default, what happens next? Greek leaders are struggling to agree to a set of painful budget cuts, including layoffs and new taxes, in order to get the next round of bailout cash from its European partners. But Greece is in the midst of a painful recession, which is cutting tax collections and causing it to sink even deeper into the deficit hole. And even if Greek and European officials can agree on deficit reduction measures, the bailout plans need to run a gauntlet of votes in 17 separate European parliaments. Last week, just the news that the Austrian parliament had failed to set a timetable for a vote sent European and U.S. markets sharply lower."

 

The story also notes: "A default in Greece could cause investors to flee the debt of other troubled European economies, including Portugal, Ireland, Italy and Spain. Investors trading in credit default swaps are now placing the chance of default in those countries at between 28% to 66%. While Greece has only about €300 billion ($411 billion) in outstanding debt, believed to be mostly in the hands of European banks, adding all five countries' debt together comes to €2.8 trillion ($3.8 trillion). Spain and Italy are particularly worrisome. If those countries were to default, European authorities would not have enough money to bail them all out."

 

If the Greeks defaults, it probably means that they are kick out of the "euro club" and those visiting there would need to use a new, only-in-Greece currency. Another hassle for those cruising.

 

Full story at:

http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/19/news/international/greek_default/

 

Also see in the past hour from Christian Science Monitor, NY Times, FOX News, etc.:

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/Latest-News-Wires/2011/0919/Stocks-fall-amid-Greek-debt-worries

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/20/business/daily-stock-market-activity.html

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/09/19/us-stocks-slide-as-greek-debt-worries-grow/

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

Recently back from a June 7-19 Solstice cruise from Barcelona that had stops in Villefranche, ports near Pisa and Rome, Naples, Kotor, Venice and Dubrovnik. Enjoyed great weather and a wonderful trip. Dozens of wonderful visuals with key highlights, tips, comments, etc., on these postings. We are now over 40,130 views for this live/blog re-cap on our first sailing with Celebrity and much on wonderful Barcelona. Check these postings and added info at:

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1426474

[Anapli]

 

If the Greeks defaults, it probably means that they are kick out of the "euro club" and those visiting there would need to use a new, only-in-Greece currency. Another hassle for those cruising.

 

for all these your problem is this?: "Another hassle for those cruising"

 

All problems start when we change to euro.. most of Greeks don't have problem if we "kick out of euro club"... this is not a euro club.. is a Germany club and our history give us lessons that we never must make "business" with this country again but some Greek thieves politicians want them for "friends"... Greeks are "hard" people and my generation (and older) we have live with fewer and more difficult times.. for now, we are their "game" and they play with 11 million people... I hope they stop with us because our children (not only Greeks) will live the worst war ever..

[austinlw]

for all these your problem is this?: "Another hassle for those cruising"

 

All problems start when we change to euro.. most of Greeks don't have problem if we "kick out of euro club"... this is not a euro club.. is a Germany club and our history give us lessons that we never must make "business" with this country again but some Greek thieves politicians want them for "friends"... Greeks are "hard" people and my generation (and older) we have live with fewer and more difficult times.. for now, we are their "game" and they play with 11 million people... I hope they stop with us because our children (not only Greeks) will live the worst war ever..

 

I will be visiting Greece next month and I appreciate your perspective. I find it helpful to know how the current situation is viewed from within Greece. Thank you. I travel not just to see the sights, but to broaden my perspective beyond my limited view from my home in the US. My travel experiences have opened my eyes and changed the way I see the world. I am looking forward to my first visit to Greece.

[TLCOhio]

I will be visiting Greece next month and I appreciate your perspective. I find it helpful to know how the current situation is viewed from within Greece. Thank you. I travel not just to see the sights, but to broaden my perspective beyond my limited view from my home in the US. My travel experiences have opened my eyes and changed the way I see the world. I am looking forward to my first visit to Greece.

 

Hope you enjoy your first visit to Greece. It is a great area with such fascinating history, art, people, islands, architecture, etc. As Anapli noted, it has been very difficult for all involved in these challenges.

 

From the Wall Street Journal this morning, they have this perspective and headline: "Greek Crisis Exacts the Cruelest Toll" with these highlights and details: "Two years into Greece's debt crisis, its citizens are reeling from austerity measures imposed to prevent a government debt default that could cause havoc throughout Europe. As Greece's economy shrinks, its society is fraying, raising questions about how long Greeks will be able to take the strain. Gross domestic product in the second quarter was down more than 7% from a year before, amid government spending cuts and tax increases that, combined, will add up to about 20% of GDP. Unemployment is over 16%. Crime, homelessness, emigration and personal bankruptcies are on the rise. The most dramatic sign of Greece's pain, however, is a surge in suicides. Recorded suicides have roughly doubled since before the crisis to about six per 100,000 residents annually, according to the Greek health ministry and a charitable organization called Klimaka. About 40% more Greeks killed themselves in the first five months of this year than in the same period last year, the health ministry says."

 

This WSJ story also notes: "While some countries have higher rates of recorded suicides, including the U.S.'s over 10 per 100,000, mental-health professionals here say Greece's data greatly understate the incidence of suicide because it carries a strong stigma among Greeks. The Greek Orthodox Church forbids funeral services for suicides unless the deceased was mentally ill. Families often mask suicide deaths as accidents. A suicide help line at Klimaka, the charitable group, used to get four to 10 calls a day, but 'now there are days when we have up to 100,' says a psychologist there, Aris Violatzis."

 

Very sad situation.

 

Full story at:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904199404576538261061694524.html?mod=WSJ_hp_MIDDLETopStories

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

Recently back from a June 7-19 Solstice cruise from Barcelona that had stops in Villefranche, ports near Pisa and Rome, Naples, Kotor, Venice and Dubrovnik. Enjoyed great weather and a wonderful trip. Dozens of wonderful visuals with key highlights, tips, comments, etc., on these postings. We are now over 40,384 views for this live/blog re-cap on our first sailing with Celebrity and much on wonderful Barcelona. Check these postings and added info at:

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1426474

[readytogo54321]

Terry,

 

I think you need to remove the word "enjoy" from your signature line.

[austinlw]

Thanks Terry. I always ENJOY your posts and ENJOY your pictures, and can't wait to ENJOY our cruise and our visits to Italy, Greece and Turkey. ;)

[Anapli]

I will be visiting Greece next month and I appreciate your perspective. I find it helpful to know how the current situation is viewed from within Greece. Thank you. I travel not just to see the sights, but to broaden my perspective beyond my limited view from my home in the US. My travel experiences have opened my eyes and changed the way I see the world. I am looking forward to my first visit to Greece.

 

I wish enjoy your stay in Greece and find excellent weather!

 

and a joke about us (Greeks):

 

What common have Greeks and the turkeys (the birds)?

 

We do not know who among them will live until Christmas!:p

[TLCOhio]

Thanks Terry. I always ENJOY your posts and ENJOY your pictures, and can't wait to ENJOY our cruise and our visits to Italy, Greece and Turkey. ;)

 

readytogo54321: Terry' date=' I think you need to remove the word "enjoy" from your signature line. [/quote']

 

 

Appreciate this above "enjoy" posting. There probably is some wisdom, too, in the comment from readytogo54321 about fine-tuning that final "Enjoy!" tag line for these posts on this one issue. This one subject is hard for many. Sad situation.

 

Good posting by Anapli. Others have come back indicating that even during a strike period/day that there is adapting happening. People can get much done even during these strikes. Good luck to Greece and those traveling there.

 

THANKS! Enjoy your cruise! Terry in Ohio

 

Recently back from a June 7-19 Solstice cruise from Barcelona that had stops in Villefranche, ports near Pisa and Rome, Naples, Kotor, Venice and Dubrovnik. Enjoyed great weather and a wonderful trip. Dozens of wonderful visuals with key highlights, tips, comments, etc., on these postings. We are now over 40,384 views for this live/blog re-cap on our first sailing with Celebrity and much on wonderful Barcelona. Check these postings and added info at:

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1426474

[Fblack]

Greek transit workers strike and more strikes are on the way October 5th and October 19th.

 

9/23/2011: Greek Transit Workers Strike

 

" ATHENS—Thousands of Greek public-transport workers walked off the job Thursday in a 24-hour strike over new austerity measures... The walkout halted all mass transit around the capital, Athens, leading to massive traffic jams during the morning rush hour—some stretching for miles...

 

The strike, involving bus, subway, tram, electric-rail, trolley and suburban-rail workers, is the first in a series of protests planned for coming days over the latest cutbacks. ...Taxi owners also walked off the job, and teachers called their own 24-hour strike. Air-traffic controllers at the Athens airport held a three-hour walkout lasting until mid-afternoon Thursday, which led to the cancellation or delay of dozens of flights. ...

 

Greece's two main umbrella unions.... have said they plan a nationwide public-sector strike on Oct. 5 and a nationwide general strike on Oct. 19. ..."

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903703604576586033786670962.html

[nick_arch]

Don't fall for this "Greece will bankrupt" game.

 

All this is a "try to hide an elephant under the front door carpet" case.

 

You may want to read this from Bloomberg:

 

Germany Has 5 Trillion Euros of Hidden Debt

Germany’s public debt is much higher than officially shown, Handelsblatt reported, citing calculations by Bernd Raffelhueschen, an economics professor at Freiburg University.

Apart from 2 trillion euros ($2.7 trillion) of public debt, there are liabilities of another 5 trillion euros because of shortfalls in the social security and pension funds, according to Raffelhueschen, the newspaper said.

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-23/germany-has-5-trillion-euros-of-hidden-debt-handelsblatt-says.html

 

 

Greece will not default. If Greece defaults, Portugal will default in less than a week, Italy will collapse and French Banks will have to be recapitalized with money that don't exist. Germany will reach a huge inflation rate and will have to confess thay have been pinching their nubers too.

 

All this is a cat and mouse game that will finally end up around 2014 with half of the Greek debt "erased" and many changes taking place all across Europe. At least this is what the plan is.

 

European Union is through a rather painful "federalisation" procedure till 2016 - 2020 that will lead in something that we could probably call "United States of Europe". In order to get to this oint you have to iron differences, erase debts as much as possible, unite economies that run in different ways.

 

Will this be for good? I really don't know.

 

Will this suceed as a procedure? My estimation is yes. Europe is steadily going to a Eurobond direction, even if Germans don't confess it. The whole surreal theater will probably reach a point where Germany and France admit Greek debt is too big to explode, so they will try to "absorb" it after Greece takes all necessary measures to retain a deficit around 2% - 3%.

 

Majority of European governments are already in the verge of bankrupt ( as USA is ) and keep their economies running by one giving money to the other.

 

Greece is on the spotlight and is, without any argument, in pretty dire state.

Portugal is in the same state ( Madeira area officials announced they have been pinching their debt numbers too. How typical ).

Spain is in pretty dire state, mainly cause they have been living with construction sector that collapsed after UK economy started crambling.

Italy is in awful state. They just don't say it in public.

France is terribly exposed to internationa debt, with a bank system that will rattle in following years.

Ireland is having a 32% deficit ( for God's sake! Greece has only 9%. How many toxic bonds the Irish ate? )

Belgium is pretty much attached to French economy and not doing well. Only thing that saves them is they have no government for more than a year.

Lithuania is under IMF control too, more than three years in recession.

Romania is also getting IMF aid and Romanian citizens have to live on 350 euros per month.

Germany who plays the "i have made all my homework and i am good kid" role is hiding debt under the carpet. What a shame for a country that accuses other countries for doing so. They think they are pretty succesful on their manufacturing sector, while no one exists in the continent to buy their products.

 

Who is doing well in Europe??

5 countries out of the 25 are already under IMF aid, while another 5 have double digit deficit only not admitting it.

 

These are the good guys:

 

Denmark is not doing very bad.

Estonia ( yeah! Estonia ) has the smallest deficit. How sad they entered the euro this year.

Finland: They are doing quite well.

Sweden: They are also doing quite well.

[ohshuns]

Greek transit workers strike and more strikes are on the way October 5th and October 19th.

 

9/23/2011: Greek Transit Workers Strike

 

" ATHENS—Thousands of Greek public-transport workers walked off the job Thursday in a 24-hour strike over new austerity measures... The walkout halted all mass transit around the capital, Athens, leading to massive traffic jams during the morning rush hour—some stretching for miles...

 

The strike, involving bus, subway, tram, electric-rail, trolley and suburban-rail workers, is the first in a series of protests planned for coming days over the latest cutbacks. ...Taxi owners also walked off the job, and teachers called their own 24-hour strike. Air-traffic controllers at the Athens airport held a three-hour walkout lasting until mid-afternoon Thursday, which led to the cancellation or delay of dozens of flights. ...

 

Greece's two main umbrella unions.... have said they plan a nationwide public-sector strike on Oct. 5 and a nationwide general strike on Oct. 19. ..."

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903703604576586033786670962.html

 

My cruise ship arrives in Piraeus on the 20th. I'm crossing my fingers that everything will normalize by then.

[ohshuns]

Greek transit workers strike and more strikes are on the way October 5th and October 19th.

 

9/23/2011: Greek Transit Workers Strike

 

" ATHENS—Thousands of Greek public-transport workers walked off the job Thursday in a 24-hour strike over new austerity measures... The walkout halted all mass transit around the capital, Athens, leading to massive traffic jams during the morning rush hour—some stretching for miles...

 

The strike, involving bus, subway, tram, electric-rail, trolley and suburban-rail workers, is the first in a series of protests planned for coming days over the latest cutbacks. ...Taxi owners also walked off the job, and teachers called their own 24-hour strike. Air-traffic controllers at the Athens airport held a three-hour walkout lasting until mid-afternoon Thursday, which led to the cancellation or delay of dozens of flights. ...

 

Greece's two main umbrella unions.... have said they plan a nationwide public-sector strike on Oct. 5 and a nationwide general strike on Oct. 19. ..."

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903703604576586033786670962.html

 

My cruise ship arrives in Piraeus on the 20th. I'm crossing my fingers that everything will normalize by then.