Dress code.....

[bradpole]

I give up...if you don't understand it, I can't explain it.

 

I don't understand. I don't let what others do impact the enjoyment of my dinner or vacation. As long as the important things are good or excellent; good food, good service, and good company, what someone is wearing can't ruin my dinner or evening.

 

Times have changed, perhaps if we had this debate 20 years ago I would be on your side of the argument, but a jacket and tie isn't important for most people today in their regular lives, let alone on vacation!

[Retty2Go]

Honestly, Brad, advocacy does not appear to be your case at this point. Your posts are starting to read like the complaints of a disgruntled adolescent. You keep personalizing your argumenta, and they have gone from people judging you, to what you wear on vacation, to a critique of how you view formal wear as a vestige of antiquity, and all the while remaining impervious to what others say these nights mean to them. This, even, after they explained that they book passage on Celebrity (e.g., not buy the ship) because of formal evenings.

 

There are all sorts of invitations to dinners and parties that call for a particular dress. Surely, you have been invited to these. If you chose to attend, you must have put a good deal of thought into your outfit because you wanted to have a great time with like-dressed people. Lighten up, and just think of it as a costume party. But why attend if you do not want to go? If you choose not to accept the Captain's invitation to his party, offer your regrets for declining to attend, and have a ball at any of the myriad venues that are not reserved that evening for the formal party. Can't you sacrifice the main dining room for, what is it, 2 out of 7, or 3 out of 13 nights?

 

John

 

All I am advocating is that formal night should be optional, allow those who LOVE IT to dress up and enjoy themselves! While those who just don't care about dressing up aren't forced to.

[Ma Bell]

Joanie, it isn't "too much to ask." However, it is just something we really do not enjoy and truly consider it a downside to cruising on Celebrity. We tolerate it because we like everything else about Celebrity. Not everyone enjoys what others enjoy, and view it as something to get over and done with. We love Celebrity. We just hate the formal nights and there are plenty of others who also comply, but don't enjoy it. I am sure Celebrity is also aware of that.

 

 

Businesses have policies in place because they are trying to attract a certain type of consumer. Consumers like a certain kind of cruise for many reasons, one of which may be the kind of crowd that is attracted to the product. Celebrity has always positioned itself as a somewhat refined experience compared to some of the wild and crazy party type cruises. As you say, you enjoy the other things about Celebrity, don't enjoy dressing formally, but comply with the formal nights. It really doesn't take a whole lot to completely change the demographic of a business by changing a few core policies.

 

I think it's possible that if Celebrity becomes just one of the many with exactly the same policies, there may end up being a lot of things about Celebrity that you may not enjoy any more.

[tally10]

Businesses have policies in place because they are trying to attract a certain type of consumer. Consumers like a certain kind of cruise for many reasons, one of which may be the kind of crowd that is attracted to the product. Celebrity has always positioned itself as a somewhat refined experience compared to some of the wild and crazy party type cruises. As you say, you enjoy the other things about Celebrity, don't enjoy dressing formally, but comply with the formal nights. It really doesn't take a whole lot to completely change the demographic of a business by changing a few core policies.

 

I think it's possible that if Celebrity becomes just one of the many with exactly the same policies, there may end up being a lot of things about Celebrity that you may not enjoy any more.

 

Has it ever crossed your mind that Celebrity may WANT to change their demographic and appeal to a broader range of people? They are a business who is probably more interested in getting as many cruise dollars as possible. I am sure they would not like to see someone's money go to NCL, Carnival, HAL, Princess, etc. when it could go into Celebrity's coffers. That is why they are trying so hard to please everyone and turning the other way in the MDR when someone maybe does not strictly comply with the often stated on these threads, "dress code" suggestions.

I retired from a Fortune 500 company. They were once a business casual company. Now, you are allowed to wear jeans, golf shirts, etc. to work. Even management. Did the company's standards change? Not at all. The company is still extremely successful and profitable. I don't think Celebrity will lose in any way if they become a bit more casual. Would that make people jump to another cruise line just because not everyone would have to dress up on formal nights?

[SusieV]

[bradpole]

Honestly, Brad, advocacy does not appear to be your case at this point. Your posts are starting to read like the complaints of a disgruntled adolescent. You keep personalizing your argumenta, and they have gone from people judging you, to what you wear on vacation, to a critique of how you view formal wear as a vestige of antiquity, and all the while remaining impervious to what others say these nights mean to them. This, even, after they explained that they book passage on Celebrity (e.g., not buy the ship) because of formal evenings.

 

There are all sorts of invitations to dinners and parties that call for a particular dress. Surely, you have been invited to these. If you chose to attend, you must have put a good deal of thought into your outfit because you wanted to have a great time with like-dressed people. Lighten up, and just think of it as a costume party. But why attend if you do not want to go? If you choose not to accept the Captain's invitation to his party, offer your regrets for declining to attend, and have a ball at any of the myriad venues that are not reserved that evening for the formal party. Can't you sacrifice the main dining room for, what is it, 2 out of 7, or 3 out of 13 nights?

 

John

 

Another problem that arises is each generation's tastes change. So yes I consider a tuxedo or a suit for dinner a bit antiquated, and no I don't understand why those who enjoy formal night need everyone similarly dressed.

 

I work with some twenty something guys that would consider dark jeans, an untucked dress shirt, with a dark sweater over their shirt formal and not understand what is wrong with that. There are people on this board who wouldn't even consider that appropriate for a casual night.

 

No matter what is said we will never agree!

[Ma Bell]

Has it ever crossed your mind that Celebrity may WANT to change their demographic and appeal to a broader range of people? They are a business who is probably more interested in getting as many cruise dollars as possible. I am sure they would not like to see someone's money go to NCL, Carnival, HAL, Princess, etc. when it could go into Celebrity's coffers. That is why they are trying so hard to please everyone and turning the other way in the MDR when someone maybe does not strictly comply with the often stated on these threads, "dress code" suggestions.

I retired from a Fortune 500 company. They were once a business casual company. Now, you are allowed to wear jeans, golf shirts, etc. to work. Even management. Did the company's standards change? Not at all. The company is still extremely successful and profitable. I don't think Celebrity will lose in any way if they become a bit more casual. Would that make people jump to another cruise line just because not everyone would have to dress up on formal nights?

 

 

If that were the only effect the change precipitated, probably not. The difference is the cruiseline is not hiring the passengers so they really don't have much control over their standards. They only have control over their own standards and whether relaxing them will attract a whole demographic that may not be what they are looking for.

[Retty2Go]

You don't have to agree, Brad, you just have to be respectful. Your stance is as judgmental as you are accusing others of being. Yes, tastes change, but tuxedos are hardly prehistoric. Those are your co-workers. One of my 20-something colleagues just pumped out $1000 for a new tuxedo. Even if tuxedos are dead as you see it, what is wrong with putting on a jacket and a tie? On those two or three nights?

 

John

 

Another problem that arises is each generation's tastes change. So yes I consider a tuxedo or a suit for dinner a bit antiquated, and no I don't understand why those who enjoy formal night need everyone similarly dressed.

 

I work with some twenty something guys that would consider dark jeans, an untucked dress shirt, with a dark sweater over their shirt formal and not understand what is wrong with that. There are people on this board who wouldn't even consider that appropriate for a casual night.

 

No matter what is said we will never agree!

[cruzfanatic]

If that were the only effect the change precipitated, probably not. The difference is the cruiseline is not hiring the passengers so they really don't have much control over their standards. They only have control over their own standards and whether relaxing them will attract a whole demographic that may not be what they are looking for.

 

So, are you suggesting that the dress code filters out a specific "demographic?" What demographic would that be? Because, after reading this thread, I am becoming much less likely to want to cruise with a demographic of people who believe that my desire to dress casually while on vacation is a direct expression of who I am as a person.

[Ma Bell]

There is no doubt that cruiselines all have their own personalities. Not that one is "better" than another, but that they appeal to a different market segment. People need to find the cruiseline that best fits their desires. It is well known that some market to a "party all the time mentality", some to a very staid, older crowd, some to those looking for a more family oriented cruise, some to a much higher income crowd, some to people on a smaller budget, etc.

 

Celebrity has done a great job appealing to a fairly large segment of the population by adding some great new innovations, beautiful new ships and finding a way to give people more choices to customize their own experience while still retaining the traditional ambience that made them special with their loyal customers for many years. Now, it's a great mixture of casual and traditional that works. If they do away with all of the things that have made them unique, they will certainly lose many of the customers that are a huge portion of their success.

[ward10]

If they do away with all of the things that have made them unique, they will certainly lose many of the customers that are a huge portion of their success.

 

You think so? I would hazard that the bean counters are out there continually assessing the strengths of the argument to move away from formal to smart casual. From a straightforward financial perspective, how many X diehards will jump ship (and to where?) if formal nights were turned into smart casual AND ABOVE........ compare that to the ever increasing demographic of younger travellers with discretionary income that are entering the cruise market. I would consider the vast majority of those younger cruisers would be MORE inclined to travel with X if the dress code was more relaxed.

 

It's a simple numbers game after a while - the existing target market with their expectations and desires is shrinking. They have to be replaced and the cruising marketplace is pretty cutthroat - I wouldn't imagine any sacred cow will remain sacred in the coming years.

[tip]

Change happens. The way people dress changes. Look at some old movies or photos of how people used to dress at baseball games---in the 30's and 40's almost every man wore a suit and a hat (not a baseball cap). I watched an old Alfred Hitchcock movie the other night and most of the action took place on a cruise ship where every night was a formal night. Times change.

 

It seems as though some folks have difficulty accepting change. No one is suggesting that you can not continue to dress in a tuxedo or a gown on so-called formal nights. Why do some folks insist that everyone must conform and rant about decreasing standards and fearing that Celebrity will attract a different class of passengers?

 

For those who suggest that those who don't want to abide by tradition should dine elsewhere or go to NCL or Carnival, I would counter by saying that those who insist that everyone dress formally might want to look at Cunard Lines.

[TomTN]

Change happens. The way people dress changes. Look at some old movies or photos of how people used to dress at baseball games---in the 30's and 40's almost every man wore a suit and a hat (not a baseball cap). I watched an old Alfred Hitchcock movie the other night and most of the action took place on a cruise ship where every night was a formal night. Times change.

 

It seems as though some folks have difficulty accepting change. No one is suggesting that you can not continue to dress in a tuxedo or a gown on so-called formal nights. Why do some folks insist that everyone must conform and rant about decreasing standards and fearing that Celebrity will attract a different class of passengers?

 

For those who suggest that those who don't want to abide by tradition should dine elsewhere or go to NCL or Carnival, I would counter by saying that those who insist that everyone dress formally might want to look at Cunard Lines.

 

lol, Nail/head

[jimandtoni]

Change happens. The way people dress changes. Look at some old movies or photos of how people used to dress at baseball games---in the 30's and 40's almost every man wore a suit and a hat (not a baseball cap). I watched an old Alfred Hitchcock movie the other night and most of the action took place on a cruise ship where every night was a formal night. Times change.

 

It seems as though some folks have difficulty accepting change. No one is suggesting that you can not continue to dress in a tuxedo or a gown on so-called formal nights. Why do some folks insist that everyone must conform and rant about decreasing standards and fearing that Celebrity will attract a different class of passengers?

 

For those who suggest that those who don't want to abide by tradition should dine elsewhere or go to NCL or Carnival, I would counter by saying that those who insist that everyone dress formally might want to look at Cunard Lines.

 

When the dress code changes( and it has not) then people will accept the change. Some people apparently can not accept following the dress code!Why should we look to Cunard? Celebrity already has the dress code that we enjoy. YOU do not enjoy Celebrity's dress code. It seems then that people like YOU should look elsewhere.

[bradpole]

When the dress code changes( and it has not) then people will accept the change. Some people apparently can not accept following the dress code!Why should we look to Cunard? Celebrity already has the dress code that we enjoy. YOU do not enjoy Celebrity's dress code. It seems then that people like YOU should look elsewhere.

 

Once again the argument of "if you don't like formal, don't cruise Celebrity" comes up. That argument makes it seem like the only reason one would choose Celebrity is that they have formal nights. The other 5 nights of the 7 night cruise are just place holders to hold people over until the next formal night.

 

There are many reasons I am choosing Celebrity. Along with the reasons I choose Celebrity there are things that don't appeal to me but they come along for ride so to speak, and formal night is at the top of that list.

 

Also, the argument that if there are no formal nights than the ships will be filled with 'riff raff' so to speak. I think the more sedate on board atmosphere and entertainment (compared to Carnival or NCL) will keep that crowd away.

 

I've been accused of not respecting the other side's position on this topic. I'll buy that, but the other side doesn't realize the following:

If formal nights became optional how many people do you thing would actually stop the tradition immediately? If formal night is TRULY such a beloved tradition of the Celebrity passenger (as is being argued) than you have nothing to worry about, the vast majority will continue to dress up, with a handful of people opting not to go all out. Just knowing that it isn't required is such a nice option, I might even wear a dark jacket just for the heck of it, but being required to do so changes the whole atmosphere for those who don't love it.

 

If formal night is optional how many people do you honestly think will immediately abandon the tradition? If passengers on Carnival are still dressing up I think the traditional Celebrity passenger has nothing to worry about.

[bradpole]

When the dress code changes( and it has not) then people will accept the change. Some people apparently can not accept following the dress code!Why should we look to Cunard? Celebrity already has the dress code that we enjoy. YOU do not enjoy Celebrity's dress code. It seems then that people like YOU should look elsewhere.

 

But there are many other things that make up a cruise experience, the precious formal night is one negative on a long list of positives of why I looked at Celebrity.

[Ma Bell]

Change happens. The way people dress changes. Look at some old movies or photos of how people used to dress at baseball games---in the 30's and 40's almost every man wore a suit and a hat (not a baseball cap). I watched an old Alfred Hitchcock movie the other night and most of the action took place on a cruise ship where every night was a formal night. Times change.

 

It seems as though some folks have difficulty accepting change. No one is suggesting that you can not continue to dress in a tuxedo or a gown on so-called formal nights. Why do some folks insist that everyone must conform and rant about decreasing standards and fearing that Celebrity will attract a different class of passengers?

 

For those who suggest that those who don't want to abide by tradition should dine elsewhere or go to NCL or Carnival, I would counter by saying that those who insist that everyone dress formally might want to look at Cunard Lines.

 

What you don't seem to get is that it is Celebrity who has established their dress code, not the passengers. I have no problem at all accepting change and make my decisions based on reality. It seems there is a group that has a problem accepting reality. Never once in all my years have I said anyone needs to dress in a tuxedo or gown. Most don't.

 

We also don't live in a class society and my comments have nothing to do with "a class of people". There are just different kinds of experiences that appeal to people. Some people enjoy the Opera and some wouldn't be caught dead there. Some like Country Music and others don't. Many enjoy all kinds of things and have enough sense to know that both can be enjoyable. Most adults manage to participate in the things they like and don't find it necessary to stamp their feet and insist that "everything" should be "changed" to their liking, especially when they can choose another option that is available to them.

[Ma Bell]

But there are many other things that make up a cruise experience, the precious formal night is one negative on a long list of positives of why I looked at Celebrity.

 

So because it's "one" negative to you, it should be changed to make sure "everything" is just the way "you" like it? Why take anyone else's feelings into consideration?

 

I don't quite get that mentality. I think it's great that Celebrity has provided so many new choices for people on board their ships and that has opened up our favorite cruiseline to people who never want to dress up for dinner. There are times that we might not want to dress formally and really love the fact that we can go elsewhere.

[jimandtoni]

But there are many other things that make up a cruise experience, the precious formal night is one negative on a long list of positives of why I looked at Celebrity.

It's very simple...if you don't like the rules, don't play the game. Feel free to play a different game.

[bradpole]

So because it's "one" negative to you, it should be changed to make sure "everything" is just the way "you" like it? Why take anyone else's feelings into consideration?

 

I don't quite get that mentality. I think it's great that Celebrity has provided so many new choices for people on board their ships and that has opened up our favorite cruiseline to people who never want to dress up for dinner. There are times that we might not want to dress formally and really love the fact that we can go elsewhere.

 

It shouldn't be changed just because I want it, I'm not the only one advocating making Formal Night optional. Times have changed, plus like I said before just because it is optional how many people do you really think will immediately drop the notion of formal night? If you are scared that the majority of people will stop dressing formally (which is highly unlikely) doesn't that prove that formal night is a thing of the past and it is time for a change? The most likely situation is that only a handful of people will stop dressing formally in the MDR, and is a handful of non-formal people such an impact to a meal?

 

 

 

Clothes don't make the man (or lady)

[tally10]

So because it's "one" negative to you, it should be changed to make sure "everything" is just the way "you" like it? Why take anyone else's feelings into consideration?

 

I don't quite get that mentality. I think it's great that Celebrity has provided so many new choices for people on board their ships and that has opened up our favorite cruiseline to people who never want to dress up for dinner. There are times that we might not want to dress formally and really love the fact that we can go elsewhere.

 

It should not be what I like or what you like. If Celebrity does, in the future, do away with the formal nights (and I personally think it will in time) and make them optional, will you change to another cruise line? Will all of the other diehard formal night lovers jump ship? Just like I personally like Celebrity for all the OTHER reasons, I am sure Celebrity will think that the formal night lovers, will too. I can't see that many people abandoning Celebrity if formal nights are optional. Celebrity obviously reads these threads.

[2blueyam]

Well I think we are well past this point:

 

 

Not that I am trying to encourage animal cruelty, as I only encourage beating dead animated horses.

 

I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

[bradpole]

It should not be what I like or what you like. If Celebrity does, in the future, do away with the formal nights (and I personally think it will in time) and make them optional, will you change to another cruise line? Will all of the other diehard formal night lovers jump ship? Just like I personally like Celebrity for all the OTHER reasons, I am sure Celebrity will think that the formal night lovers, will too. I can't see that many people abandoning Celebrity if formal nights are optional. Celebrity obviously reads these threads.

 

And even if formal nights became optional (which is the trend in the industry, even Regent made them optional!) I'm sure it will be a very long time before the MDR is completely casual. There will be enough people who continue the tradition and influence 'newbs' to do the same, with only a handful of people dressing comfortably. And is a handful of more casually dressed people such a crisis?

 

I'd probably even wear a dark jacket, making it optional rather than mandatory makes it so much more attractive!

[Bridge Maven]

In light of the fact the dress code for formal night is no longer required in Celebrity's specialty restaurants, I think it is just a matter of time before formal night is either totally eliminated or becomes optional. Especially considering that it use to be the other way around. There was a time that the minimum dress code in the specialty restaurants was the middle dress code, which no longer exists, when it was casual night in the main dining room.

[Joedog]

Also, the argument that if there are no formal nights than the ships will be filled with 'riff raff' so to speak. I think the more sedate on board atmosphere and entertainment (compared to Carnival or NCL) will keep that crowd away.

 

I think that the argument that "Formal Night" has anything to do with why "riff raff" choose a cruise line is laughable.

 

We are not "wealthy" people but we have enough money for my wife and I to take an annual cruise. The factors that come to play when we decide on a cruise are cost and itinerary. Period. We don't base our decision at all on whether or not there are mandatory "Formal Nights".

 

I am not sure what "type" or "class" of people you diehard Celebrity fans are trying to keep off your cruises but I have an idea, and if you think the possibility of their having to deal with a mandatory Formal Night is what is keeping them away you don't know your "Riff Raff".

 

The only things that is going to keep the wolves at the brow from boarding the ship are stealth and cost. Celebrity needs to quit advertising and raise rates. If the "other" class of people don't know you exist they won't come AND if you make your cruises unattractive "cost wise" they won't come.

 

Unfortunately, Celebrity is a corporation and corporation are in business to make money so basically, you need to get ready for change.