Poll: Manhattan or Brooklyn?

[guernseyguy]

I'm sure Brooklyn has many fine qualities and reviving areas - but checking Mapquest it looks like Pier 12 is over 2 miles from Atlantic Avenue (which even this limey has heard of).

Peter

[travelgals]

A huge part of our decision to sail QM2 this past 3/25 was due to the Manhattan departure. It was easy and very exciting to sail down the Hudson. Getting a cab out of Brooklyn at debarkation will truly redefine the word nightmare. Not us, we'd rather fly to Florida.

[CGT]

Everyone who prefers Manhattan over Brooklyn must let Carnival know about their displeasure with this move. Call Carnival. Email Carnival. Write Carnival. Let Carnvial (and Princess Mgmt.) know that this is a wrong move and a big mistake. Let them know what a nightmare you think Brooklyn is, no matter how pretty they make the new waiting area. Let them know how they are ruining and taking away one of the biggest things that makes sailing out of New York so special. Let them know what an ignorant comment it was for that Princess Management executive to say "no one is awake that early to view the Manhattan skyline anyway" (I suppose he thinks everyone goes to sleep during sailaway was well).

 

Let them know MANHATTAN is where you want you (and the QM2) to be!

[rocktheboat]

How come you left out the true pic's of red hook. Two of those building have been down over a year.

No public transportation in red hook, What, are you sure you live in NYC. There are 3 different train lines, there are buses, there is also an x-press bus from Manhattan.

 

Do you think Carnival Corp really cares what you or the 3% of people who come to cc thinks. Grow up.

 

If Bayonne NJ turned into a big hit, brooklyn will be a bigger hit. The port in Bayonne is in a really really bad area. When sailing from Bayonne you get even less of a view than you will get leaving Brooklyn.

 

In order for NYC to fix the Manhattan piers they need the Brooklyn piers. You don't know is any of these or which lines will go back to Manhattan after the piers are finished.

 

If you have nothing doing this week end take the water taxi across to Bklyn then come back here and tell me how your trip was.

[CGT]

Thre are NO train lines into Red Hook it's a complete DEAD ZONE. Yes, I live in New York. Get out an MTA subway map and have a look.

 

http://mta.info/nyct/maps/submap.htm

 

On this map Red Hook is not labled as it is on the fold out paper maps you get in the stations, but Red Hook is that blank, empty, dead zone with no train lines running through it right below the words "Hoyt-Schermerhorn" in that left corner of Brooklyn close to lower Manhattan on the map.

[guernseyguy]

If Bayonne NJ turned into a big hit, brooklyn will be a bigger hit. .

 

Rocktheboat,

 

I agree that a refurbished Brooklyn Pier might make a perfectly acceptable point of departure for a Cruise. We also do not yet know if Cunard will move back to Manhattan once those Piers have been refurbished.

 

However, for a Trans-Atlantic Crossing an important part of the 'mystique' is 'arrival in New York' - and for all Brooklyn's many fine qualities, to the world Manhattan = New York. Further, given the state of knowledge of the Princess executive "When you sail into New York, a lot of people are still in bed and miss the view," I have serious doubts that these dimwits intend to move back to Manhattan....They are thinking 'Cruise' not 'Crossing'

 

'Hey - enjoy your trans-atlantic cruise - how many ports do you stop at?'

 

Peter

[mtbny7]

CGT: I've always enjoyed your comments and knowledge on liners of the past and QE2... but I must say your comments about Brooklyn are rude, wrong, and appalling... and why are you so insistant on being right? Can't you just think positively? Why must you be such a Negative Nancy?

 

C'mon and lighten up... and make the best out of it! It's all good, ma'am!

 

Michael

NYC

[CGT]

I'm sorry, Mtbny7, but I do not believe my comments about Red Hook are rude, I believe they are the truth. Red Hook is a very bad area, ugly, isolated and lacks adequate public transportaion. It is no place for tourists. I do believe the people who will be appalled are the passengers who must pass through this derelict part of the New York.

 

You don't have to agree, but I am confident the overwhelming majority of people who took a tour of Red Hook would agree with me. My opinion is based on actually having toured the area by car, on more than one occasion. Earlier you said that the ships would be docking at the foot of Atlantic Avenue, but as I have tried to clear up here, that plan has long since changed. Even if that plan was still in effect, I would be against the QM2 sailing from Brooklyn, but the present plan is unacceptable on any level in my view. The area is, in a word, wretched.

[mtbny7]

You win. I am 100% wrong and you are, of course, 100% right.

 

 

Michael

[CGT]

You can disagree with me that's fine. I am very passionately against the QM2 (or even Princess for that matter) sailing from Red Hook, and I have tried to present tangible evidence to back up my assertions. I will stand by my views.

[stowaway2k]

The ship is my destination, not the pier.

[rocktheboat]

CGT,

 

You need to go back to your map and read it. Carroll St., Smith & 9th Street, Bergen St, where are these places, on the moon. That is Red Hook, those are train stops in Red Hook.

And if you look where it says Hoyt-Sch you will see the line pointing to that stop. That area that looks empty are warehouses which will come down in order to build the new pier. This map only shows the train lines it does not show streets or what is on those streets. Red Hook is best known for the Italians and the mom and pop italian resturants that are still there.

 

Bottom line here is, Carnival Corp does not care what you think. By trying to make people think it's a bad area will not stop people from cruising from there and will not stop the pier from being built. It's a done deal so lets move on.

I read in the Brooklyn paper that once the Manhattan pier is finished(the plans call for a much longer pier) QM2 will move back. Only time will tell.

[QueensFan]

Although I have barely posted here, I tend to be more inclined to do so when matters of tradition are concerned, (unfortunately), never having sailed QE2 or QM2 but longing to for the past 6 years. I think, however, that this is a major matter of tradition.

 

I remember the first time I saw QE2. It was December 21, 2003, her final New York departure in her Farewell Transatlantic Season. (Okay, okay, I saw her leave for the Caribbean.) I think I could even consider myself to have an, albiet minor, role in the QE2's history; poised at the end of Pier 92, my parents, brother, and cousin faced the cold and bid the great Queen a happy journey. All the other liner freaks had left or gone inside, but we were positioned at the end of the pier, the last people the QE2 passed as she slipped out of the pier on one of her final NYC departures.

 

I remember the magic of seeing the Queen slipping out of the pier...the tugs letting her go...her first unassisted feet and yards on her journey....and the amazing magic of everything. Here, the world's greatest ocean liner left the historic New York home of her ancestors for decades.

 

I remember my final glance that day of the QE2. As we came out of the Lincoln Tunnel, I grabbed one last glance of the giant Cunard Orange funnel passing the world-famous New York skyline. It was one of the most magical moments of my life. Two international legends; the world's greatest city and the world's greatest ship; together in one place.

 

I experienced the magic of the Manhattan piers again from the New Jersey shore, watching the two Queens depart together for Southampton almost exactly a year ago. I experienced the magic of this location again; the two monolithic liners poised against the tall spires of the New York skyscrapers. I have a triptych in my room of the day; the two Queens in the piers, the QM2 departing, and the fireworks that celebrated the event. The images of the ships against those buildings created an absolutely amazing photograph.

 

As mentioned, I have never been able to sail either Queen. My lifelong dream has been to sail transatlantic on the QE2. One of the moments I imagine is standing on her fantail watching the skyline go by. Leaving Manhattan. Not Brooklyn.

 

Don't get me wrong. I love New York City. I love Brooklyn. And I'm sure that the new piers are going to be lovely. And I'm sure Brooklyn is a great place. But a line of ships so steeped in tradition should be leaving from the traditional home of the line.

 

Over the past few years, I have seen a rapid decline in Carnival's treatment of Cunard's traditional component. First, retiring from the transatlantic run their most famous (and I think QE2 is still more famous than QM2, considering she's been around 33 years longer and thus has been heard of my more people.) ship. Then not caring for this famed ship, to the point where she is now getting in an unacceptibly ratty condition. Then deciding to replace forementioned world's most famous ship with an ugly, change-the-funnel-and-go, floating barge. Then transferring a line steeped in tradition to a big-box mass-market cruise line's jurisdiction. And now, this.

 

I'm sorry, but I think it's gone too far. I only wish that there was something that could be done. Unfortunately, Carnival Group is only concerned with money - making it and saving it. I think that if they go too much further, Cunard is going to become like any other cruise line, losing what is special about it. And that's when, too late, Carnival is going to recognise how much they messed everything up.

[CGT]

CGT,

 

You need to go back to your map and read it. Carroll St., Smith & 9th Street, Bergen St, where are these places, on the moon. That is Red Hook, those are train stops in Red Hook.

And if you look where it says Hoyt-Sch you will see the line pointing to that stop. That area that looks empty are warehouses which will come down in order to build the new pier. This map only shows the train lines it does not show streets or what is on those streets. Red Hook is best known for the Italians and the mom and pop italian resturants that are still there.

 

Bottom line here is, Carnival Corp does not care what you think. By trying to make people think it's a bad area will not stop people from cruising from there and will not stop the pier from being built. It's a done deal so lets move on.

I read in the Brooklyn paper that once the Manhattan pier is finished(the plans call for a much longer pier) QM2 will move back. Only time will tell.

 

Hi there Rocktheboat, now I know for sure that you are not telling the truth about knowing Red Hook, because the Bergen Street stop and the Smith-9th street stop are NOT in Red Hook. I happen to have friends who live almost directly across the street from the Bergen Street stop on the G and F line. That stop is right on the corner of Smith and Bergen. It's actually Boerum Hill area, and that stop is just two blocks from Atlantic Avenue, but it's definitely not Red Hook. I guess I'll have to call my friends and tell them they live in Red Hook, that would be surprising news to them! And the Hoyt-Schermerhorn stop? That's even further away from Red Hook. In fact, I've used that stop and the Bergen Street (this one on many many occasions). I know excactly where these stops are. Do you work for Carnival? Because it seems to me that while I present facts, you present misinformation!

 

I have to wonder A) why you are so personally offended by the fact that Red Hook is being called a bad area and B) what your motives are when you have just proven that you are lying about what you know. You really don't know the area at all and your statements about the subway stations have just proven it. There is not one subway station in Red Hook. Not one. That's a fact. And that area that "looks empty are warehouses which will come down in order to build the new pier" is a HUGE area and they will NOT be Buildozing blocks and blocks of city to "nice up" the area (this really funny) for a new cruise ship pier. They are not going to bulldoze an entire corner of Brooklyn!

 

To prove my point, incontrovertibly about the subway stations, here is a Google Maps directions from the intersection of Smith Street and Bergen Street (where the Bergen Street G and F station is) to Ferris Street and King Street (the closest intersection to where Pier 12 is). As you can see, the Bergen Street stop is two miles from where Pier 12 is in Red Hook.

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Ferris+Street+and+King+Street,+Brooklyn,+New+York&daddr=Smith+Street+and+Bergen+Street,+Brooklyn,+New+York&hl=en

 

Here is a link to Google Maps directions from the Smith and 9th Street subway station on the G line to Ferris and King Streets, near Pier 12. It is a distance of 1.6 miles:

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=40.676971,-74.006481&spn=0.016144,0.030572&saddr=Ferris+Street+and+King+Street,+Brooklyn,+New+York&daddr=Smith+Street+and+9th+Street,+Brooklyn,+New+York&hl=en

[guernseyguy]

Carroll St., Smith & 9th Street, Bergen St, those are train stops in Red Hook.

Really? .......If so they are nearly two miles from the Piers....thats going to be a long walk with luggage....but at least it will be in daylight....sorry to intrude on a New Yorkers squabble.....wonderful thing, MapQuest :)

 

Peter

[CGT]

Yes....but a mile and a half from the Piers....sorry to intrude on a New Yorkers squabble.....wonderful thing, MapQuest :)

 

Peter

 

Peter yes, exactly, those stops are far from the piers. As you can see I have done the same thing using Google Maps (better than mapquest even!) and ammended my previous post to include the link.

 

EDIT: Link should be working properly now.

[guernseyguy]

CGT in fairness to Rocktheboat I think (on Mapquest, anyway) the Carroll Street stop might be half a mile nearer....but with my luggage, one and a half, or two miles...it might as well be a million!

Peter

[CGT]

CGT in fairness to Rocktheboat I think (on Mapquest, anyway) the Carroll Street stop might be half a mile nearer....but with my luggage, one and a half, or two miles...it might as well be a million!

Peter

 

Very funny ;)

 

Here are the Google Maps directions from the Hoyt-Schermerhorn subway station to Ferris and King, near Pier 12, an even greater distance of 2.6 miles:

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Ferris+Street+and+King+Street,+Brooklyn,+New+York&daddr=Hoyt+Street+and+Schermerhorn+Street,+Brooklyn,+New+York&hl=en

 

And finally from Carroll Street and Smith Street (location of Carroll Street station) to Ferris and King Streets, near Pier 12, an actual distance of 1.7 miles:

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=40.681458,-74.005018&spn=0.016144,0.030572&saddr=Ferris+Street+and+King+Street,+Brooklyn,+New+York&daddr=Carroll+St+%26+Smith+St,+Brooklyn,+NY+11231&hl=en

[rocktheboat]

I grew up on 9th, I know where I lived. I might have been right off the boat but the first thing I learned was where I lived.

 

Would anyone really carry their luggage on the subway. After spending $4000+

on a cruise you can bet I'm taking a cab.

 

I really don t care what you think but I do like sparing with you. I rushed home from work today just to see if you posted.

Really I grew up in Red Hook than moved to bensonhurst then to the city.

 

Your still wrong. Besides NYC where is their a cruise port close to a train that your making the subway a big issue. Other than NY you have to take a cab to all other ports. As long as I'm on that ship I really don't care where the port is.

Don't forget to take a ride on the water taxi, it's really a nice ride.

[CGT]

I grew up on 9th, I know where I lived. I might have been right off the boat but the first thing I learned was where I lived.

 

But apparently you never learned where the subway stations were...

 

 

on a cruise you can bet I'm taking a cab.

 

Ah yes, let's delve into the issue of hailing a cab in Brooklyn, shall we? Unlike Manhattan, where yellow taxi cabs are ubiquitous and you can just stick your arm out and hail a cab *like that* (basically), you'll be standing on the street for a long time in Brooklyn waiting for that cab. Not that it's impossible, but cabs do not prowl the streets of Brooklyn (or the other outer boroughs for that matter) looking for fares like they do in Manhattan, and when you do spot a cab it's likely already taken. What's that I hear you say? People will be staying in hotels in Manhattan and taking the cabs to Brooklyn so the point is moot? Well those people will also be paying double, triple and even quadruple the fare to get to Red Hook than they would staying in a midtown hotel and getting to the west side piers.

[Rotterdam]

Carnivore is no fool - Brooklyn will be easy to access if you are in a car or using their transfers! Indpendent travellers will have a hard time. There is no bus station or Amtrak nearby.

 

The area around the piers is slated for development but it is/ was where the cargo ships unloaded(think "On the Waterfont" - its not pretty to say the least - I know of a bar on Atlantic avenue that is a lot of fun - a friend that is a freighter captain took me there(once) - between the drunks & tootheless prostitutes, the knife fights - even he was scared. There are public housing projects right there also - not nice!

 

Also - in the NY Times this week a Realtor from Manhattan bought a building in the area - so it must be up & coming - I'd rather be close to Rockefeller Center!

 

The new facilty in Brooklyn will be an improvement over the Manhattan Piers - but in no way will it be the same - Brooklyn has a couple of smalll areas that some will find interesting, the Brookly Museum & Botanical Gardens & the Heights are close for those who want a quick dinner(and to look at lower Manhattan & Brookly Bridge). But certainly Manhattan has the sites that tourists want when they come to NY. Imagine starting a world cruise on QE2 -from Brooklyn???????

 

As far as catching cabs - there is an access to the Brooklyn Bridge into lyManhattan not far from the piers....problem is the traffic.. Alot of cab drivers come from Brooklyn so I could see them swing by the piers.

 

If I end up sailing out of Brooklyn(I hope not) I'll hire a driver & start out early.

[JPEvans]

Over the past few years, I have seen a rapid decline in Carnival's treatment of Cunard's traditional component. First, retiring from the transatlantic run their most famous (and I think QE2 is still more famous than QM2, considering she's been around 33 years longer and thus has been heard of my more people.) ship. Then not caring for this famed ship, to the point where she is now getting in an unacceptibly ratty condition. Then deciding to replace forementioned world's most famous ship with an ugly, change-the-funnel-and-go, floating barge. Then transferring a line steeped in tradition to a big-box mass-market cruise line's jurisdiction. And now, this.

I'm know I'm going to be flamed for this. I don't get the reasoning why to people the QE2 is the only "true" liner.

The QM2 is every bit an ocean liner as the QE2 is. Just that the QM2 has all the modern comforts one could want. I haven't been on the QE2, but have been on the QM2 twice. I don't think there is a ship afloat that is as stunning as the QM2. The QE2 may have a "country club" type of elegance. Which means the passengers are the ones that make the elegance. On the other hand the QM2 sets "the" stage for total glamour. I think assuming the QE2 is more famous than the QM2 is not true. Ocean liner buffs maybe regard that. But everyone, absolutely everyone knows the QM2. You may get a "I've heard of the QE2", but when you mention the QM2 you get an "oooooh, ahhhhh". I'm assuming your "an ugly, change-the-funnel-

and-go, floating barge" is referring to the new Queen Victoria. We don't know much about her at this point. It's too soon to dish her. Some of the hints I've read about so far, indicates she "will" be a great ship. From what I've heard so far. It's going to have a 2 story Queen's Room and a Ritz style tea room, She is going to have a Queen's Grill. I believe Cunard or Carnival realized that the first Queen Victoria now Arcadia wasn't right for Cunard. From a few pictures I've seen of the interior, she wouldn't make a nice "Queen" I'm eagerly awaiting for the QV so I can book the maiden voyage. I didn't get to go on the maiden voyage of the QM2, but was there to watch her come into NYC for the first time and 3 days later sailing on the Tandem Crossing. In a way I feel the QM2 is "my" ship.

 

Another thing I would like to mention. I know some people long for the days of the Transatlantic ocean liner. But the Golden Age of ship travel is really upon us right now. It's a true testament to the ocean liner how many new cruise ships there are today. It proves that people love to travel by ship, but as doing that by means of going transatlantic is impractical today. Everyone, except for maybe one passenger on any given sailing is treating the crossing as a cruise. And not going for a means just to get to Europe. A lot of passengers who sail Transatlantic today, fly right home, or maybe stay a couple nights in London at the most. Another thing about the QE2. It comes to a point where it's just not worth the money to keep putting into a ship, just like a car. The QE2 can't sail forever. That's why they built the QM2 to continue the glorious tradition of a Transatlantic Crossing. When the time comes for the QE2 to go, we should mourn the loss, but embrace the future of Cunard. That will be the QM2 and QV. I do think Cunard will not develop into a "mass" market cruise line like Carnival and Princess. It will always remain a "niche" line.

[guernseyguy]

But certainly Manhattan has the sites that tourists want when they come to NY. Imagine starting a world cruise on QE2 -from Brooklyn???????.

 

Rotterdam, I agree entirely - I think the point that may be being missed (by Princess, among others) is that while Brooklyn may be a perfectly approprriate point of departure for a Cruise from New York, it is not an appropriate terminus for a 'traditional' Trans-Atlantic Crossing - and for Cunard, who market themselves so heavily on "The legacy of Cunard...It was a more civilized era, the golden age of sea travel. " (the first lines of 'About Cunard, on their web site).....Brooklyn....it aint!

 

Peter

[guernseyguy]

I'm know I'm going to be flamed for this. I don't get the reasoning why to people the QE2 is the only "true" liner. The QM2 is every bit an ocean liner as the QE2 is.

 

JPEvans, I wouldn't dream of 'flaming' you, and there is much we agree on. I agree that the QM2 has proved herself worthy of the description 'Liner' - able to maintain a timetable, whatever the weather, point to point - as last week's diversion into St Johns, then on-time arrival into Southampton ably demonstrated. It was thrilling to track her charging up the channel to get back to Southampton on time.....try doing that on SS Caribbean Condo

 

I haven't been on the QE2, but have been on the QM2 twice. I don't think there is a ship afloat that is as stunning as the QM2. The QE2 may have a "country club" type of elegance.

 

As you say, you haven't been on the QE2 - my only suggestion would be to go, while you still can. The QE2 has 'history', which one day the QM2 will as well....but not yet.

 

I think assuming the QE2 is more famous than the QM2 is not true. Ocean liner buffs maybe regard that. But everyone, absolutely everyone knows the QM2.

 

Well, we're assuming a bit, aren't we? Do a Google search for QE2 you get 645,000 hits, for QM2 135,000....so on the Internet it does look as though the QE2 is ahead, despite the last two years' hoopla for the QM2. So, I think the arguement that the QE2 is the world's 'most famous ship' (according to Cunard) has some merit.

 

the new Queen Victoria. We don't know much about her at this point. It's too soon to dish her. Some of the hints I've read about so far, indicates she "will" be a great ship. From what I've heard so far. It's going to have a 2 story Queen's Room and a Ritz style tea room, She is going to have a Queen's Grill. I believe Cunard or Carnival realized that the first Queen Victoria now Arcadia wasn't right for Cunard.

 

I agree - IF we get a warmed over Vista Class ship, then Carnival/Cunard will be doing Cunard and us a great disservice - however, IF they make the sorts of changes you mention, then yes, QV could be a worthy addition to the fleet - lets wait and see....

 

......and in the mean time, I would encourage you to try the QE2, quirks and all!:)

 

Peter

[guernseyguy]

Well, it looks like we're voting about 9:1 in favour of Manhattan....much good may it do us! I'll mention it onboard this week, if anyone will listen!

 

Peter