Concordia News: Please Post Here

[Uniall]

Max ... Just because you Americans want to play Hanging judge and Sheriff do not expect the rest of the world to just accept that you think you are always right! and appear to live in the wonderful world of Black and White where no Grey areas exist.

 

You will be one of those who will dissapear from sight should Schettino be found not guilty for whatever reason and not be Big enough to accept you were wrong and put it in writing on this thread should it still be running then.

 

I will however unlike some on CC stand my ground and wait until All the evidence has been taken apart and a decision made and if i am wrong at least i am prepared to say that i was wrong!

 

SB ... interesting story, thanks for the link.

 

That was uncalled for Sid. All Americans are not like me and I would not be surprised at all if Schet gets off this. I will be here and I'll give you credit for predicting he'll get a pass from the Italian courts because they may be just like you.

I guess you can't even imagine what evidence could come in to point to Schettinos innocence so I guess you figure they'll say there just is'nt enoough evidence to convict him of a crime.

Maybe you think it's Domenica's fault.

Since it has not been proven in court yet, do you even believe that the Concordia hit those rocks or do you think possibly the rocks hit the Concordia? Could that be one of your gray area you're talking about?

 

 

Sid,

 

I thought it was a little over the top, too.

 

But, I understand the psyche that forces you to fly the Union Jack, every now and then, to remember a bygone era when "Britania Ruled the Waves". :D

 

John

 

..

Edited August 17, 2012 by Uniall

[cruiserfanfromct]

I will however unlike some on CC stand my ground and wait until All the evidence has been taken apart and a decision made and if i am wrong at least i am prepared to say that i was wrong!

Sid, I don't get it. :confused: Unless I missed something, (I have to admit I haven't read every single post on this thread or the other deleted / locked Concordia threads), I haven't come across any post of yours where you've declared any stance whatsoever that you would need to "stand your ground" or be proven right or wrong.

 

The posts I've read that you've authored clearly state that you will not take a stance until all the evidence is revealed in court. You have repeatedly stated that the court will ultimately decide. Which is all fine by me -- I don't mean this offensively but can you please tell us (especially for the benefit of those who recently joined this thread ) what your stance is? and what ground you stand on? :confused:

Edited August 18, 2012 by cruiserfanfromct

[gopackgo]

I was just browsing to check on the progress of the Concordia. Just wanted to tell people to do a Google Earth on Giglio. You will chuckle when you see the ship. Not that it is a laughing matter at all, but wow.

 

Just shaking my head. Maybe someone has already posted this. I quit reading all the posts a few months ago.

 

Ginny

[ikelmay]

Max ... Just because you Americans want to play Hanging judge and Sheriff do not expect the rest of the world to just accept that you think you are always right! and appear to live in the wonderful world of Black and White where no Grey areas exist.

 

You will be one of those who will dissapear from sight should Schettino be found not guilty for whatever reason and not be Big enough to accept you were wrong and put it in writing on this thread should it still be running then.

 

I will however unlike some on CC stand my ground and wait until All the evidence has been taken apart and a decision made and if i am wrong at least i am prepared to say that i was wrong!

 

SB ... interesting story, thanks for the link.

 

I would agree with your posting in a number of respects but I can't help feeling that my faith in the italian court system isn't all that strong - there is a difference between being cleared and 'getting off'.

 

I realise a lot of the details have been presented through a media filter, but I still can't help but get chills when I hear recording of the coastguard chief's remonstrations with the captain (who at that time was safe on land) demanding that he return to his ship and deal with the crisis, and the juxtaposition of the distressing pictures of a stream of abandoned passengers slowly crawling in the pitch dark down a ladder strung over the hull of the vessel. To paraphrase Desi - "captain, you got some 'splaining to do"

[Keel Haul]

Typical internet thread, wonderful how they devolve from shock, horror, mawkish sentimentality to a battle of the self aggrandizing.

 

Keep it up as I love a good chortle first thing in the morning, it set me up for a good dump.

[CostaSmurfette]

Shhhhhhhhhhhhh...........don't conjure it up......:eek:

 

what happened to costasmurfette? 13 posts a day, then nothing...

 

I am still here....but unlike one or two of you, I actually have a life and have decided that since a few of you have found everyone guilty regardless as to whether any guilt actually exists, I prefer to watch how things unfold in Italy and get on with life....

 

Cos incase you haven't got it yet...life is too short to waste time doing a postmortem on something that doesn't affect you, that you do not have 100% knowledge about and that unless you are totally obsessive (which some here obviously are) whatever your individual thoughts and feelings are, you will neither hurry the investigation up nor will your inane rantings make one iota of difference to the outcome...

 

Nah...I much prefer to look at the wider photo, and how the industry are working to learn from the accident by educating their officers to be more aggressive with how they interact each other in order to act before an accident happens...ie...to speak out if they feel a decision or action is incorrect, something that til this accident happened, it seems there was some hesitancy...whether due to lack of training, fear of humiliation/intimidation or cultural problems - which actually do apply in Italy since even now there are some regions of Italy that are traditionally held in lower stature than others and for someone from the lower region to question someone from a higher region is just not done, There are alot of things that need addressing in how officers and crew interact and work together.

 

There are too many lessons to be learnt from this tragedy, and the guilt or innocence of those involved is a tiny fraction of the entire equation, and the guilt or innocence of those involved is not as important in the wider scheme of things as the ability for the industry to learn the lessons and thus prevent yet another accident from happening in the future.

[sidari]

Max ... I have previously said that i think that the court will find Schettino guilty of some if not all of the charges against him, like others who have posted i have an open mind and not a closed one regarding any decision.I like others intend to wait until the investigation report is done in order to see who else is responsible for Concordia being where it is because unlike many others here i do not believe it is down to just one person.

 

More than one person may well be found guilty during any trial and again like others i do not think that just one person will be held accountable.

 

 

Uni ... Nice to see you keep trotting out the usual garbage .... :) but still Refuse like your compatriots to answer the question posted days ago by CS regarding the shooting down of a passenger plane by a US navy warship!

 

You continue to call Schettino while refusing to condem the actions of the captain of that warship in killing more than 32 Innocent people.

 

iklemay .... the Coastguard person involved in this did nothing but shout down the phone and anyone with any sense knows that doing that will have little effect on someone in a distressed state of mind, can you imagine that guy down a phoneline talking to someone holding people hostage? Boom..... :eek:

[Uniall]

Max ... I have previously said that i think that the court will find Schettino guilty of some if not all of the charges against him, like others who have posted i have an open mind and not a closed one regarding any decision.I like others intend to wait until the investigation report is done in order to see who else is responsible for Concordia being where it is because unlike many others here i do not believe it is down to just one person.

 

More than one person may well be found guilty during any trial and again like others i do not think that just one person will be held accountable.

 

 

Uni ... Nice to see you keep trotting out the usual garbage .... :) but still Refuse like your compatriots to answer the question posted days ago by CS regarding the shooting down of a passenger plane by a US navy warship!

 

You continue to call Schettino while refusing to condem the actions of the captain of that warship in killing more than 32 Innocent people.

 

iklemay .... the Coastguard person involved in this did nothing but shout down the phone and anyone with any sense knows that doing that will have little effect on someone in a distressed state of mind, can you imagine that guy down a phoneline talking to someone holding people hostage? Boom..... :eek:

 

Sid

 

I didn't reply to the civilian plane/US Navy situation because I don't see any correlation between a an occurance in a hair trigger potential war zone and the Concordia.

 

As for my silence on the issue, US Common Law reversed the ancient English Common Law, steming from our Consitutional right to remain silent.

 

In the US, silence can not be construed as affirmation or denial. English Common Law deemed silence to be denial, stemming from Henry VIII prosecuting St. Thomas More for treason because he remained silent and would neither affirm or deny the recognition of the King as head of the Church.

 

Regardless, I hope you will admit your comment: "You Americans........" was a little hasty and ill advised.

 

As for the Coast Guard Commander, I think his remarks were appropriate for the circumstances and professions of the personalities. There was a crisis and both men were in qasi-para military positions. The CG officer was reminding Capt. Coward of his sworn duty and trying to scream thru the haze of cowardice.

 

John

Edited August 18, 2012 by Uniall

[sidari]

Uni ... The correlation is that you claim that Schettino killed 32 people and want him hung while the other one killed way more and you say nothing! which says to me you agree with the killing of innocent civilians but as soon as CS mentions it you and others attack her for no reason.

[Uniall]

Uni ... The correlation is that you claim that Schettino killed 32 people and want him hung while the other one killed way more and you say nothing! which says to me you agree with the killing of innocent civilians but as soon as CS mentions it you and others attack her for no reason.

 

If you can't see a difference between the Middle East continuous hot and cold warfare where US Naval ships have already been attacked and a Cruise ship sailing to Italian ports of call, I can't explain it to you.

 

But, I really think you should tone down your apparent animus (animosity) towards the USA. As for me, my Irish ancestors fought for liberty and freedom against the English invaders and enslavers for 700 years. But, I bear no modern malice towards the UK.

 

John

PS

I've never called for "hanging" Captain Coward. Capitol punishment, where practiced, should only be used for the most violent intentional crimes. That certainly does not include Negligent Homicide/Manslaughter or Dereliction of Duty. I would suggest 5 - 10 years in La Prisone'

Edited August 18, 2012 by Uniall

[sidari]

In 1975 a train on the London underground driven by Leslie Newson ploughed head on into a dead end tunnel killing 43 people including himself, while no real answer was found for the crash one Doctor came up with a possible reason.

 

Dr P. A. B. Raffle, the Chief Medical Officer of London Transport, gave evidence to the inquest and the official enquiry that Newson might have been paralysed temporarily by a rare kind of brain seizure (known as "akinesis with mutism" or "transient global amnesia"). In this situation, the brain continues to function and the individual remains aware although they cannot move physically.

 

 

With the above in mind and some of the stories that Schettino either could not or would not make decisions (no idea if true or not) and was sat on the rock which we can see nearest the ship on the Giglio webcam while talking to the coastguard, you have to wonder if he was beset by the same thing as Leslie Newson?

 

Before the angry gang jump in this is not me giving a cause for his actions but merely looking at his actions or lack of them in the aftermath of the ship being opened up like a sardine can.

 

Uni ... I have no animosity towards the USA if i did why the heck would i have been there on a number of occasions? Irish is that Southern or Northen? i have seen the City next to my own blown apart by those from the North who claim to be freedom fighters but in reality are Cowards who hide in the shadows.

 

To me the captain who shot down a civilian airliner is on a par with the Russians who also shot down a civilian airliner over the sea of Japan also claiming a large number of lives.

Edited August 18, 2012 by sidari

[Uniall]

In 1975 a train on the London underground driven by Leslie Newson ploughed head on into a dead end tunnel killing 43 people including himself, while no real answer was found for the crash one Doctor came up with a possible reason.

 

Dr P. A. B. Raffle, the Chief Medical Officer of London Transport, gave evidence to the inquest and the official enquiry that Newson might have been paralysed temporarily by a rare kind of brain seizure (known as "akinesis with mutism" or "transient global amnesia"). In this situation, the brain continues to function and the individual remains aware although they cannot move physically.

 

 

With the above in mind and some of the stories that Schettino either could not or would not make decisions (no idea if true or not) and was sat on the rock which we can see nearest the ship on the Giglio webcam while talking to the coastguard, you have to wonder if he was beset by the same thing as Leslie Newson?

 

Before the angry gang jump in this is not me giving a cause for his actions but merely looking at his actions or lack of them in the aftermath of the ship being opened up like a sardine can.

 

You forgot to mention that Captain Coward may have frozen on the bridge because of a brain seizure caused by:

 

A toxic chemical reaction to the "Super Musk" cologne he used to entice Domonica ;)

 

OR

 

An allergic reaction to the shell fish he had at dinner :rolleyes:

 

OR

 

A sugar imbalance from the "Twinkies Supreme ala mode" they had for dessert :eek:

 

OR

 

.............never mind, you get the picture. :D

[sidari]

Uni ... When is the Hanging Judge due in town ? :p oh yeah i forgot they went out with the Cowboy films ... :D

[Max49]

Thanks for that explanation Sid. I feel that it was one rogue and then cowardly captains' fault, maybe with a little help from his crew. Others seem to feel the errors are infested through out the entire ship, Costa, Carnival and maybe the entire industry. If the latter is correct, we won't see a resolution in our lifetime and certainly no one will go to jail for it.

Cruise ships used to safely pass close to land as in sail byes and even sail through fjords with no problems. I thought the cruise industry was doing fine but they can not predict and react immediately to when a capt is being too risky.

If the captain can not be trusted to make good decisions, what is the answer? A pre-programed course that NO ONE can change.

Can we all agree that Concordia hit the rocks, they requested the passengers to remain calm, it was only an electrical problem and please go their rooms, the general emergency and abandon ship orders were delayed,the capt and many other officers got safely on lifeboats and made it to shore while many passengers were struggling for their lives to get off the ship?

If so , maybe our only differences is , is who is mostly responsible for this horrendous chain of events.

I have no personal vendetta against Schettino but I thought the "The Captain of the Ship" was in charge.

[CtheW0rld]

You forgot to mention that Captain Coward may have frozen on the bridge because of a brain seizure caused by:

 

A toxic chemical reaction to the "Super Musk" cologne he used to entice Domonica ;)

 

OR

 

An allergic reaction to the shell fish he had at dinner :rolleyes:

 

OR

 

A sugar imbalance from the "Twinkies Supreme ala mode" they had for dessert :eek:

 

OR

 

.............never mind, you get the picture. :D

 

no doubt captain chicken's defense team has discussed using each of these as a possible defense.

[CostaSmurfette]

As highlighted by Sidari....the human element and the human's reaction/action under stress is key in many accidents...not just aircraft or ship but with anything that depends on a human being in command.

 

So should we dispense with the human element completely...easier said than done. There are drones in the sky but they sometimes fall out of it....will there ever be a time when ships are remotely controlled or preprogrammed...maybe...but then we reach the Catch 22.

 

To either go remotely controlled or to be fully automated by computer we need a human to work the controls from base and/or programme the computer....and since computers are only as good as the human that programmes it....there lies that Achilles heel once again.

 

The more I see coming out of Italy about the why's and wherefores's about this accident, the more I personally feel that Francesco Schettino and others on that bridge froze either just before on at the point of impact. As Sidari rightly said earlier, there have been numerous cases from all over the world where the human at the control (and thus in command) has frozen...whether through spatial disorientation or blind fear...it is an extremely common phenomenon that as yet there is no training available to prevent it happening.

 

Infact, as is so often the case, the psychological reaction is never known about until that person is placed into the position of a serious accident...up until that point is rarely, if ever shows.

 

Oh and those who said they hoped Francesco never went to Scandinavia...you obviously did not read the alleged damage done to AIDAblu in Rostock by Costa Atlantica under the command of Francesco Schettino...those who did not realise, Rostock is a Scandinavian port and Costa ships alternate tween Baltic cruises and Norwegian fjord cruises...so it's pretty much a certainty that Francesco has been swanning about in the fjords at least one season either as Captain, Staff Captain or Safety officer with Costa Crociere.

 

It is too easy to write off the human emotion element when it comes to how a person deals with an accident...their actions are frequently seen as confused, irrational, out of character and more frequently, totally against the rule book. That is what happes when a human is overtaken by such utter blind fear that they not only do some of the most unbelievable things but also the act in strange and sometimes life threatening ways.

 

It is a big mistake to judge someone as a coward when you yourself has never been in that person's shoes nor in that person's situation...we can all cry that we would never act that way, but when it comes down to it....just how certain are you...it is impossible to know til you are in a life or death situation as to how you would react.

[ikelmay]

In 1975 a train on the London underground driven by Leslie Newson ploughed head on into a dead end tunnel killing 43 people including himself, while no real answer was found for the crash one Doctor came up with a possible reason.

 

Dr P. A. B. Raffle, the Chief Medical Officer of London Transport, gave evidence to the inquest and the official enquiry that Newson might have been paralysed temporarily by a rare kind of brain seizure (known as "akinesis with mutism" or "transient global amnesia"). In this situation, the brain continues to function and the individual remains aware although they cannot move physically.

 

 

With the above in mind and some of the stories that Schettino either could not or would not make decisions (no idea if true or not) and was sat on the rock which we can see nearest the ship on the Giglio webcam while talking to the coastguard, you have to wonder if he was beset by the same thing as Leslie Newson?

 

 

This comparison doesn't really hold any water - sorry, unintended pun. A single split second reaction/lack of reaction led to the Moorgate tube disaster. The Costa catastrophe (whoever is to blame) was a chain of disastrous missteps and miscalculations.

 

I don't have any axe to grind against Captain Schettino, but he does seem to have more stories in him than a Rudyard Kipling omnibus edition. I think his legal team might be well advised to get him 'off-line' for a while.

[SomeBeach]

 

I don't have any axe to grind against Captain Schettino, but he does seem to have more stories in him than a Rudyard Kipling omnibus edition. I think his legal team might be well advised to get him 'off-line' for a while.

 

I agree with your part about his lawyers needing to shut Schettino down.

This accident started before the ship hit the rock, it started with the course and speed set towards the island. I want to know what everyone on that Bridge was doing from that point on. (Yes, we already know where the Capt was for a time) I'm hoping the facts come out in the investigation.

Ultimately, I do believe it still falls back to the Captain. He was given the responsibility of the ship and the Officers under his command. He failed to live up to the job.

[sidari]

"A single split second reaction/lack of reaction led to the Moorgate tube disaster"

 

Did it though? or did Leslie Newson commit suicide as some have claimed? no one will ever know.

 

ikelmay ... The comparison is not about the accident but about the persons behaviour at a critical moment in time.

 

SB ... Shut Schettino down ? in what way? the course and speed towards the island was not a problem, not until the ship went beyond the turning point and strayed the half mile off course.

 

what needs to be part of the investigation and i am sure it will be is who was in charge prior to the ship getting to the point where it went off course? and why did that person/s not do anything about it?

 

Is it possible to fall into a lifeboat? on a ship listing heavily with the boat deck in or touching the sea and balancing on the handrail while helping someone to get into the lifeboat and either the ship or lifeboat moves from the other? anything is possible. Not saying that is what happened but it is possible.

 

Max ... Until you have been in a life threatening position you cannot say how you will react, you will have in your mind how you think you will react and how you hope you will react but believe me until you have been that person you can never know.

 

Cruise ships i would say in general are safe places to be, sadly when a number of events that come together are in place there is no stopping an accident!

 

As for remote controlled or pre programmed ships i doubt that will ever happen, there are many occasions where ships need to change course etc and i think the Mariners here will agree that it would be impractical to do it.

 

If in a dangerous situation the Captain cannot be trusted then maybe a system needs to be implemented whereby other officers together can over ride his decision.

Edited August 18, 2012 by sidari

[SomeBeach]

Sid, shut him down means to put tape over his mouth. ;) I can't believe his lawyers appreciated him talking to the media. Matter of fact, I think his "ghost" comment made him sound stupid, like a man grasping for air.

I believe it needs to start at the beginning because that will lead up to the point of no return. I think the investigation will follow that sort of track which hopefully will lead to the truth of what happened when on the Bridge.

[stella_mare]

I think a key aspect is this:

 

Would Schettino have acted differently had his decision to divert the route not caused the accident (I know, I know... IMO)?

 

We mentioned Capt. "Sully" Sullenberger. On the one hand, Sully represented a benchmark of ideal training and execution in a crisis. We more or less trust and, perhaps, expect any captain would behave the same in a similar situation.

 

But the Costa's situation was not similar at all. Sullenberger's crisis occurred due to circumstances entirely beyond his control. The Costa's crisis came about by the decision Schettino had made to divert the route and bow to Giglio.

 

Schettino recognized this. He stated he felt guilty. He called and told his boss he made a mess. It dawned on him rather quickly that his career, and life as he knew it, was over. I think it is why shock and disbelief settled in DURING the crisis, instead of afterward, clouding his focus on the situation at hand.

 

If he had he not diverted off course, but instead hit an unidentified object along the "traditional" route of the cruise and tore a whole in the side of the ship, would we would have seen a different Schettino in action?

[stella_mare]

SB ... Shut Schettino down ? in what way? the course and speed towards the island was not a problem, not until the ship went beyond the turning point and strayed the half mile off course.

 

what needs to be part of the investigation and i am sure it will be is who was in charge prior to the ship getting to the point where it went off course? and why did that person/s not do anything about it?

 

Hello Sid,

 

Here is what I think (at this point, anyway) based on the testimonies and reports available thus far (not media filtered reports.)

 

The ship did not stray off course. It was directed off course by Schettino. He planned this diversion, gave orders to Ambrosio to carry it out, and then took over the command himself to complete the maneuver.

 

Regarding the question about whether Ambrosio said anything and/or tried to change course: investigators will only be able to determine who is telling the truth if there is evidence on a recording device (VDR/black box) on board. Ambrosio says he did say something. Schettino says he did not. Schettino did says that he (Schettino) planned the diversion. Gave the orders. And took over command to complete the maneuver.

 

As for who is at blame at that moment in time and/or at fault for not saying something? A whole pile of folks, IMO. (And I still wonder why the coastal authorities didn't raise an alarm or wonder what the heck this big behemoth was doing within spitting distance of its shore. Perhaps it wasn't a surprise because this kind of thing IS done. Palombo and Ferrarini said - "Oh, no, no, no... not at night! Not in winter!!! Not THAT close!!!!" Then, why didn't the coast guard or port authority jump out there and see what was happening?)

[sidari]

"Palombo and Ferrarini said - "Oh, no, no, no... not at night! Not in winter!!! Not THAT close!!!!"

 

 

Stella Mare ... yet neither said it in August last year at night when Concordia was closer to Giglio ! .. i think i am right in saying that the Coastguard for that area is based in Livorno on the mainland and it would have taken time to get there as it did even in a Helicopter.

 

With regard to would Schettino have acted in a different way had the ship hit something elsewhere i don`t think he would, i think he would have been stunned just as he was and would likely have acted the same but then again in open sea he or someone else may have given the abandon ship order sooner.

[Uniall]

Accepting Personal Responsibility

[SomeBeach]

Sid, you go back to the Aug sail by often. Again, the big differences are speed and location of where the ships came close to the island.

Let's also say, for purposes of conversation, that as this Aug event was planned more time was devoted to planning the route, studying depths and locations of reefs/rocks .

The ship was in a totally different area when it came close in Aug. One could safely say that there was no rock in that location.

I haven't heard what speed the ship was going in Aug but I'd risk saying that it was not the same speed as in January. I'd bet Aug was much slower in approach and then throughtout the sail by.

The biggest difference is that Concordia did not end up on its side in Aug with 32 lives lost. Was it luck or was it a Captain that followed through on his responsibility to make sure the ship navigated the route properly? I'd bet it was a Captain that paid attention to details.

At this point, with the knowledge we have, that is something Schettino did not do.