Just One Thing To Say

[PRINSENDAM]

I'd listen, if I were you, to the opinions of someone who had firsthand experience on the Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth.

Richard

 

 

Richard,

 

Did you sail in the Mary & the Elizabeth?

 

Stephen

[Lepine]

Not that the cousins need my defence (and ignoring for the moment that they have come (albeit somewhat belatedly) to Britain's defence, twice, in living memory), but lets not forget that Cunard was founded by a North American (he would have called himself British, from North America) and has long been a line AIMED at Americans. The 'Americanization' of Cunard was alive and well in 1936 in the first Queen Mary.

 

Peter

 

P.S. To the Cousins - don't worry about all this 'we hate America' stuff - I'm affraid it goes withe being 'top dog' - it was our turn 100 years ago, now its yours, soon enough it will be China's!

 

I don't hate America at all. I have great admiration for many things American. But you have to admit, when consumerism rules, so often does the lowest form of culture. And what is with all the bleached blond, Paris Hilton cloning, empty-headed fluff that is so apparent everywhere in US entertainment media and beyond? A little is fine, but too much garbage is cultural poison.

 

Also, when Cunard was founded, America was very different. I was not born yet, but back in my parents' and grandparents' days, America was far more classy than trashy.

[Lepine]

<<<

Originally Posted by Lepine

Well, I'm afraid many who are traditional crew (including senior officers) strongly disagree with this "it's over, let it go" viewpoint (let what go, British traditions?)..........

 

 

How do you know this???

>>>

 

 

How would you think I would know? I would not quote someone I had not spoken to directly, in this instance at least. However, for the sake of discretion, I don't want to elaborate or go on about it.

[Lepine]

How do you know this???

 

 

 

What gives you the right to be so rude and patronising about things American?

 

You actually make it sound as if you are defending a bunch of spoilt petulant individuals who don't want to play any more because they can't get their own way.

 

Oh please. I'm not patronizing about things American. Every culture has aspects that can be improved. There's no being spoiled or petulant here. On the contrary, I find it is spoiled and petulant to have the attitude, "we are American, we are the boss, get used to it". Not all Americans have that attitude by any means, but I've seen quite a few who do.

 

As for not getting our own way, it's not about that, it's about playing fair, and considering the feelings of all involved.

[KenC]

How would you think I would know? I would not quote someone I had not spoken to directly, in this instance at least. However, for the sake of discretion, I don't want to elaborate or go on about it.

 

There's a surprise!

[Host Caroline]

I may not post much but as you Cunarders know: I do lurk;)

This thread is getting into a little more name calling/personal affronts than we normally condone but because I'm familar with the characters here and thus far it's been surprisingly "tastefully" testy I'm leaving it alone..... for now.

But I am going to remind you that personal attacks, insinuations etc. won't be tolerated so I suggest you try to keep this a fencing match and not let it evolve into Boxing or I shall have to.. well.. you know...

[TJL]

Gosh, I'm going to wade somewhat warily into this heated debate!

 

Just a couple of points.

 

I first travelled on the QE2 for a "Land Of The Midnight Sun Cruise" back in 1997 when I think Cunard were still owned by Trafalgar House. I had a thoroughly enjoyable time, but I remember thinking that the level of external and internal maintenance left something to be desired.

 

Next cruise was an eastbound transatlantic crossing in 1999 (just after the takevover by Carnival). Again, had a fabulous time but the hull still looking a but flaky and tatty.

 

Fast forward to 2004 and a 2 week cruise from Cape Town to Southampton. Much more day to day maintenance going on - such as touching up the external paintwork whenever the ship was in port, lovely refurbishment of the Queens Room and a better standard of service all round. Is this supposed to be the much maligned "Americanisation" of Cunard? If so, I like it! I'm going on the Canadian Crossing in 4 weeks time so I'll keep a close look for any negative interference from Princess. I can't really comment on the change of captains because in my 4 QE2 cruises I've never had the same one twice. I've never found this to be a problem.

 

There does indeed seem to be a degree of snobbery re: price-cutting. My own observation is that it can occasionally by the rich who let the side down. Anyway, what about those people who could never afforded the fare 10 years ago but who are now, finally, able to realise their dream of a cruise on the QE2 and are going to enjoy EVERY moment. It's these sort of people who make for the most interesting and enthusiastic company.

 

I admit that I can't speak as the voice of experience because I've yet to step aboard any ship other than QE2 - but I'm ignore the gossip and rumours and at least give Princess Cruises a chance. To assume the worst will, I feel, merely turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

Cheers.

 

July 1997 - Land Of The Midnight Sun.

 

October 1999 - Eastbound transatlantic.

 

April 2004 - Cape Town - Southampton.

 

October 2005 - Autumn Break.

 

Forthcoming (fingers crossed!) August/September 2005 - Canadian Crossing.

[guernseyguy]

TJL,

 

Welcome to the fray (oops! Board!) - I have to agree with you - QE2 maintenance has been improving noticeably in recent years, and why should that be a surprise, given its now run by a shipping line, rather than a Property or Engineering company? Like the old Queens, she was built as a machine to make money, and long may she continue to do so (lets face it Cunard was pretty ruthless with both of them when they started to loose money, and regreted not being even more ruthless). Let us enjoy her while we may!

 

Peter

[Richard Schmidt]

Richard,

 

Did you sail in the Mary & the Elizabeth?

 

Stephen

 

No Stephen, wish I had. My only experience of the Mary have been my very enjoyable visits to her in Long Beach. She is a beauty, but a ghost, as is any ships stripped of her engines. My response was in support of Goldryder, who says he/she sailed on both the original Queens.

[Richard Schmidt]

Richard

 

I don't think people are so much defending the so called Princessifacation of Cunard on these boards as responding to your high handed, smug and self righteous responses to changes you seem to perceive will spoil your cosy little Cunard world. You probably resent that cruising and crossings are now available to the masses and hanker after a time when only the lucky few could afford it. I think its time for YOU to relax, have a valium (that is so insulting) and get used to the fact that these ships are there for everyone not just the deluded.

 

You wound me, Sir! The fact of the matter is I am one of the masses . I probably appreciate better than most the unique experience of a trans-Atlantic crossing precisely because it is requires a considerable sacrafice for me to afford the crossing in the first place. More important is the appreciation I have for the tipping-point in time we see today. QE2 is no Queen Mary, but she has closer "genetic" ties to the old liners than the QM2, and is an entirely different species than the Princess/Carnival/Royal Carribean vessels that populate the seas these days. My "cosy little Cunard world" requires only one ship, while there are a hundred that will satisfy those wanting a l'hotel de mer. To each his own, eh? So why do you protest if I express the opinion that there be preserved one ship that recalls, and commemorates, the storied 'liners of the past? When you attack the someone like Goldryder who was (a) lucky enough to have sailed on the original Queens and (b) intelligent enough to have appreciated that experience, you can expect me to respond in kind. By the way, Princess found it desirable to change the Cunard House Flag after all these years. Do you think this improves the operations of the Cunard line, or is it just another demonstration of a complete and deliberate disregard for a tradition richer than any that will be fashioned by the frat boys running Carnivore/Princess? Of course, that may just be my "high handed, smug and self righteous" opinion.

[guernseyguy]

By the way, Princess found it desirable to change the Cunard House Flag after all these years.

 

Richard,

 

Can you point me in the direction of the 'before' and 'after' - I've heard this mentioned, but not seen it.

 

Thanks

 

Peter

[PRINSENDAM]

By the way, Princess found it desirable to change the Cunard House Flag after all these years. Do you think this improves the operations of the Cunard line, or is it just another demonstration of a complete and deliberate disregard for a tradition richer than any that will be fashioned by the frat boys running Carnivore/Princess? Of course, that may just be my "high handed, smug and self righteous" opinion.

 

 

 

Richard,

 

Still trying to shoot down Carnival & Pincess? Yes the flag was changed... by CUNARD.... long before Carnival purchased Cunard and before management passed to Princess.

 

Just prior to that CUNARD, during the '94 refit, changed her hull colour to blue, added those awful Trafalgar House stripes on the suepstructure etc etc. In fact it was Carnival that restored her hull hull colour to the original federal grey.

 

I agree, it was a senseless move to change the flag after so many years, but it was done by the old Cunard, not the new management as you suggest.

 

Peter, Richard means the addition of the laurel leaves around the lion.... a copy of an officer's 'Bombay' cap badge.

 

Stephen

[eroller]

Why pay a CEO $300,000 a year, a management team earning $1 to $2 million combined, a sales team earning a similar amount, just to operate TWO ships? It just doesn't make sense.

 

 

 

 

So why is it ok for Seabourn to keep a separate office, sales and executive staff, and not Cunard?

 

Carnival continues to operate it's smallest brand, Seabourn, as a stand-alone brand. Seabourn has had it's share of financial difficulties, and certainly operating it's own office can't be "cost productive". Why not put it in a corner of the Princess or Carnival offices and use their "synergies"? BTW, both Cunard and Seabourn are classified as "luxury" brands by Carnival Corp.

 

Personally I think one reason is that Seabourn essentially became ignored when it was combined with Cunard. With the debut of QM2 all attentions were focused on her and Seabourn was left to defend itself. I hope the same doesn't happen with the ever growing 20-ship Princess fleet compared to the small 2-ship Cunard fleet. Cunard is a very small percent of the Princess organization. It's much easier and cheaper to merge more and more aspects of Cunard into the Princess way of doing things. It's not cost effective to operate two ships differently than the rest. This can be a danger when combining to distinct brands. It has been my fear that eventually this process will lead to the "Princessifaction" of Cunard. I know Princess can operate ships, and they do a damn good job at it .... I just don't want to see Cunard lose it's special identity in the process.

 

I've said it before ... if I want to sail on a Princess cruise I will book Princess, not Cunard. It's a lot cheaper to sail on Princess so why would I pay more to sail Cunard if the onboard experience is essentially the same? So far Princess has not gone too "hot wild" when it comes to Cunard, so not too many red flags have been raised (although a few have), and I hope it stays that way.

 

Ernie

 

FYI - Cunard reservations have now been fully integrated in the Princess POLAR reservation system. This is a great thing as it's an excellent booking engine and soon everyone will have real-time, live access to Cunard's pricing, inventory, and specific cabin availability without having to pick up the phone. Expect Cunard's ticket package to mirror Princess very soon, if it hasn't already.

[guernseyguy]

So why is it ok for Seabourn to keep a separate office, sales and executive staff, and not Cunard?

 

- Cunard reservations have now been fully integrated in the Princess POLAR reservation system. This is a great thing as it's an excellent booking engine and soon everyone will have real-time, live access to Cunard's pricing, inventory, and specific cabin availability without having to pick up the phone. Expect Cunard's ticket package to mirror Princess very soon, if it hasn't already.

 

Ernie,

 

One explanation for Seabourn is that it may not be 'strategic' - and they are thinking of disposing of it - so not worth the hassle of going through integration.

 

Cunard's reservation system is still byzantine - pricing a crossing I was quoted within a grade $2879, $2199, then $1299 (Guarantee).....guess which one I'm taking.....How does Princess manage 'do not advertise on internet' specials? The most transparent system I have seen is Royal Caribbean's....

 

Peter

[eroller]

Ernie,

 

One explanation for Seabourn is that it may not be 'strategic' - and they are thinking of disposing of it - so not worth the hassle of going through integration.

 

 

 

Peter

 

Peter,

That was another consideration I was thinking of. In fact I thought it was a possibility for quite some time now. The problem is, I'm not sure anyone is interested or at least willing to pay the prices Carnival Corp. is probably seeking.

 

Ernie

[Lepine]

<<<

Originally Posted by KenC

Richard

"

You probably resent that cruising and crossings are now available to the masses and hanker after a time when only the lucky few could afford it. I think its time for YOU to relax, have a valium (that is so insulting) and get used to the fact that these ships are there for everyone not just the deluded.

"

 

You wound me, Sir! The fact of the matter is I am one of the masses . I probably appreciate better than most the unique experience of a trans-Atlantic crossing precisely because it is requires a considerable sacrafice for me to afford the crossing in the first place.

>>>

 

Right, the issue is not about exclusiveness or having Cunard for only the "lucky few". Loyal Cunarders are from all walks of life. It's not about money or social class or political affiliation. It is simply about maintaining a cultural heritage that is worth maintaining.

[Lepine]

<<<

There does indeed seem to be a degree of snobbery re: price-cutting. My own observation is that it can occasionally by the rich who let the side down. Anyway, what about those people who could never afforded the fare 10 years ago but who are now, finally, able to realise their dream of a cruise on the QE2 and are going to enjoy EVERY moment. It's these sort of people who make for the most interesting and enthusiastic company.

>>>

 

I agree. I think it's wonderful that Cunard can be affordable for all, and it's very nice to have an interesting mix of people on board. Once again, I don't think that's the issue.

 

For me, the issue is a bull-in-a-china shop attitude regarding the changing of, or removal of, Cunard traditions. A "we're in charge and we don't give a damn what you think about it" attitude.

 

After hearing about the cruise line's reaction to the dissapearance of that young newlywed recently (they seem to simply refuse to talk or cooperate), I wonder if the refusal to communicate or divulge information or give 2 .....s about the opinions of the public, etc is a trend in this business.

[mufi]

I think we should realise that probably the vast majority of Cunard clients have no recollection of the supposed level of service enjoyed by the people who could afford to sail in Cunard ships, or indeed any other, in past times. I believe that what they want, and as I want also, is a reasonable level of service consistant with the expectations and values of this age. I believe that I have received this in recent years with Cunard.

 

One nice thing it is to chat with your cabin steward as an equal, unlikely in times past. And how good to see a single lady being accompanied to her table by a staff member, or to be spoken to by every crew member around the ship with a good afternoon sir etc. Standards have changed in our modern world, not always for the worst, and we should be thankful that, on Cunard and indeed many other ships high standards still exist.

 

But, stupid me, they have changed the Cunard flag havn't they.

 

David.

[Lepine]

I think we should realise that probably the vast majority of Cunard clients have no recollection of the supposed level of service enjoyed by the people who could afford to sail in Cunard ships, or indeed any other, in past times. I believe that what they want, and as I want also, is a reasonable level of service consistant with the expectations and values of this age. I believe that I have received this in recent years with Cunard.

 

One nice thing it is to chat with your cabin steward as an equal, unlikely in times past. And how good to see a single lady being accompanied to her table by a staff member, or to be spoken to by every crew member around the ship with a good afternoon sir etc. Standards have changed in our modern world, not always for the worst, and we should be thankful that, on Cunard and indeed many other ships high standards still exist.

 

David.

 

I didn't know Cunard before about under a decade ago, so there's my reference point. I sailed on QE2 quite a number of times, and then recently on QM2 a few times since the "switch". But I saw so much that I liked on QE2 (fell head over heels), and at the start of QM2, and am lately seeing those begin to unravel. In a chaotic world, the Cunard ships made me feel something made sense. They gave me a feeling of security in a way, of going home again. It might sound strange to some, but that's how I felt. So turning Cunard into just another Princess cruise, for me, is like taking it all away again.

 

Perhaps that is how the people at Princess want to see the world, how they want the world to be (speaking in broad terms), but why do we have to accept a world dictated by only a few? In a time that is supposed to be multi-cultural, hey, how about our culture too!

 

And I agree with you, it is nice to chat with the cabin stewards, etc., but I've never known it any other way.

[Nepcib]

You wound me, Sir! The fact of the matter is I am one of the masses . I probably appreciate better than most the unique experience of a trans-Atlantic crossing precisely because it is requires a considerable sacrafice for me to afford the crossing in the first place. More important is the appreciation I have for the tipping-point in time we see today. QE2 is no Queen Mary, but she has closer "genetic" ties to the old liners than the QM2, and is an entirely different species than the Princess/Carnival/Royal Carribean vessels that populate the seas these days. My "cosy little Cunard world" requires only one ship, while there are a hundred that will satisfy those wanting a l'hotel de mer. To each his own, eh? So why do you protest if I express the opinion that there be preserved one ship that recalls, and commemorates, the storied 'liners of the past? When you attack the someone like Goldryder who was (a) lucky enough to have sailed on the original Queens and (b) intelligent enough to have appreciated that experience, you can expect me to respond in kind. By the way, Princess found it desirable to change the Cunard House Flag after all these years. Do you think this improves the operations of the Cunard line, or is it just another demonstration of a complete and deliberate disregard for a tradition richer than any that will be fashioned by the frat boys running Carnivore/Princess? Of course, that may just be my "high handed, smug and self righteous" opinion.

 

 

 

You think this might have anything to do with fact that with the introduction of the QM2 there is a 40% increase in the supply of transatlantic berths? That is space for over 20,000 more pax per season. I think it is a fair expectation that prices are going to have to come down - at least for the lower end rooms. No way is demand inelastic over that type of increase for the smaller rooms. And I imagine that the average and marginal cost per pax are lower for the QM2 than for the QE2 so it is not clear that this is the start of some spiral where the price drops below current marginal cost leading to cuts in service.

 

There seems to be some concern about the alteration in the distribution between new and repeat customers. In order for the QM2 to maintain the same distribution of return to new pax the return customers will have to increase the number of transatlantic cruises by 40%. This seems unlikely so what you will see is relatively more first time pax on transatlantic runs.

 

The fact is that Cunard is less exclusive (due to increase capacity). This may cause some of you concern but I think that it is a function of the QM2 and not the company running it. Regardless of who is running the ship I think you would find more first timers and lower average prices.

 

One other thing, how many other cruise lines have non repositioning transatlantic runs? You would think that if their customers were demanding it they would just reallocate the fun ships to make the run (I imagine low market entry costs) and make a ton of money. But they have not. Why?

 

 

 

One more more thing - I am going on my first cruise of any sort on the Sept 2 crossing of the QM2. I am moving to the UK for a year and figured with the reasonable price it might be more enjoyable alternative to flying (after all the transatlantic run was started for transportation). I can't wait - especially hoping for a clear night to see the stars.