How much would cruise prices rise if you use crews fron the US or Western Europe

[fortinweb]

......

Pride of America is still in Hawaii. It still looks like a military ship on the outside and an American Political Museum on the inside. NCL was able to find enough American crew from the former 2 sister ships to have a complete crew pool for the remaining one. All the salt water that got inside the ship when she sank in Germany is slowly eating away at the interior machinery and wiring. The ship continues to bleed money. Sooner or later, NCL's new owners will very quietly get rid of her somehow.

 

Your interesting story about the Pride of America motivated me to search the web for photos. She is ugly, with that short, stocky bow and steep, almost windowless superstructure on the front, making her look like a cargo carrier. The inside can be described as tacky museum decor, like might be seen in some small town museum. She should be renamed "Embarrassment of America"! :eek:

 

I am now convinced that NCL has the unique distinction of owning the two ugliest cruise ships on the open seas - Pride of America and Epic.

Edited June 17, 2014 by fortinweb

[BruceMuzz]

They were pushed out by the more profitable Navy construction and then lost the expertise. There is a major shortage of dry dock space on the east coast and there has been for years. and the land by the shore has become too valuable. One of the largest graving docks in the country in Red Hook is under the parking lot of the Red Hook Ikea... What use to be junk space along the rivers because of coal plants and

rendering plants has become the most expensive property in the country(see for example the Gowanus canal)

 

And now the few remaining American dry docks are going out of business even faster. Cruise lines sailing out of US ports have tried to schedule their dry docks in the US to avoid the high cost of fuel to reposition the ships to countries that have experienced shipyard workers. Instead, they had been flying in a few foreign workers who built the ships, to supervise American laborers who were hired to assist in the renovations.

 

US Immigration recently ruled that these foreign workers were taking jobs that Americans could perform. (Not true by the way). But US Immigration will no longer issue temporary work visas for the foreign Dry Dock supervisors.

 

In any case, the 2 largest cruise operators, Carnival and RCCL, were forced to get into the dry dock business. They purchased a massive dry dock operation at Grand Bahamas, and now use that space for hundreds of millions of US Dollars in dry docks every year that could have - and should have - gone to the US shipyards. And in the process of saving a few shipyard supervisor jobs for Americans, US Immigration has lost thousands of dry dock jobs for American workers.

Now the cruise lines fly the European Dry Dock supervisors into Grand Bahamas, and hire local Bahamians to perform the work. The Bahamian government owes US Immigration a great debt of gratitude.

Edited June 17, 2014 by BruceMuzz

[CaveDiving]

...US workers have the least time off of any worker in the industrialized world.

 

Unfortunately, I believe this statement is simply untrue. You only need to consider the French to realize the fallacy inherent in this idea.

 

Scott & Karen

[dsrdsrdsr]

Unfortunately, I believe this statement is simply untrue. You only need to consider the French to realize the fallacy inherent in this idea.

 

Scott & Karen

Try this link. http://www.ehow.com/list_6601653_france-employment-laws.html

 

It says French workers have 30 days annual leave plus 10 bank holidays each year, and a standard working week of 35 hours (maximum 41). I don't know the details of American holidays, but I don't think it's that much - or even close?

[boogs]

Try this link. http://www.ehow.com/list_6601653_france-employment-laws.html

 

It says French workers have 30 days annual leave plus 10 bank holidays each year, and a standard working week of 35 hours (maximum 41). I don't know the details of American holidays, but I don't think it's that much - or even close?

 

You are right - not even close!

 

In the US, the standard work week is 40 hours (although many work more than this if they are salaried). Paid vacation is typically 5 days per year for the first five years, and 10 days for six years or more. Typically, there are only 7 holidays - New Years, Memorial Day, 4th of July, Labor Day, Thanksgiving (and sometimes the day after) and Christmas. Sick time off is typically 5 days per year. This is for the lucky ones - 1 in 4 US workers get no paid time off.

 

Also, read this article about the US being the only advanced country that does not require a company to give their employees paid time off:

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tanyamohn/2013/08/13/paid-time-off-forget-about-it-a-report-looks-at-how-the-u-s-compares-to-other-countries/

 

Another article comparing the most guaranteed paid vacation throughout the world (the US is near the bottom).

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/01/worlds-most-paid-vacation-days_n_3697394.html

 

It should be noted that while the US government does not require companies to provide guaranteed time off, government employees have the luxury of much more time off than the average private sector employees, with almost twice the number of paid holidays and vacation time. It seems that the government is quite generous with their own employees (paid for by taxpayers), but everyone else (the taxpayer) is on their own.

Edited June 17, 2014 by boogs

[navybankerteacher]

Unfortunately, I believe this statement is simply untrue. You only need to consider the French to realize the fallacy inherent in this idea.

 

Scott & Karen

 

I hope that you mistakenly typed "untrue" while meaning to say "true" for the last word in you first sentence; and that you meant to type "truth" rather than "fallacy" in the second sentence. Otherwise, there is no point in discussing the point further.

[Philob]

It should be noted that while the US government does not require companies to provide guaranteed time off, government employees have the luxury of much more time off than the average private sector employees, with almost twice the number of paid holidays and vacation time. It seems that the government is quite generous with their own employees (paid for by taxpayers), but everyone else (the taxpayer) is on their own.

 

And let's not start on gov't employee retirement benefits...;)

[navybankerteacher]

Try this link. http://www.ehow.com/list_6601653_france-employment-laws.html

 

It says French workers have 30 days annual leave plus 10 bank holidays each year, and a standard working week of 35 hours (maximum 41). I don't know the details of American holidays, but I don't think it's that much - or even close?

 

An American is lucky if he gets ten vacation days per year, for the first five or ten years with an employer- plus the usual 10 national holidays - and perhaps an odd state holiday (like Patriot's Day in Massachussetts); and perhaps ten paid sick days. Standard work week is 40 hours, overtime pay, except for unionized workers, often does not start until the second hour of overtime. These are typical "white collar" conditions - (unionized factory workers generally do better, as do government employees - and especially teachers) but most office workers in finance, insurance, advertising, retail sales, etc. fall into the above framework.

 

I recall my incredulity in the early 60's at learning my British brother in law had essentially six weeks vacation time.

[smeyer418]

Unfortunately, I believe this statement is simply untrue. You only need to consider the French to realize the fallacy inherent in this idea.

 

Scott & Karen

Let me repeat it then. US employees have the least time off in the industrialized world. You can make things up but that doesn't make it accurate as others have pointed out.

[smeyer418]

And let's not start on gov't employee retirement benefits...;)

this was once true. Its no longer. Do you live in Wisconsin? The quid pro quo is you gave up the high incomes of the upper levels of the private sector for retirement money in a defined benefit plan....now they are almost all defined contribution(i.e 401k type plans)...

NY went from a defined benefit plan(tier 1) with no contribution to the latest tier which the employee pays up to 6% of their salary.

http://osc.state.ny.us/retire/employers/tier-6/member_contributions.php

[navybankerteacher]

Let me repeat it then. US employees have the least time off in the industrialized world. You can make things up but that doesn't make it accurate as others have pointed out.

 

I'm not sure it is the absolute least, but it must be far below the norm in Europe, Oceania, and industrialized Asia. There are some fields where long term employees get four vacation weeks per year (banks, typically after 20 years service among them - but few last that long anywhere nowadays).

[Philob]

this was once true. Its no longer. Do you live in Wisconsin? The quid pro quo is you gave up the high incomes of the upper levels of the private sector for retirement money in a defined benefit plan....now they are almost all defined contribution(i.e 401k type plans)...

NY went from a defined benefit plan(tier 1) with no contribution to the latest tier which the employee pays up to 6% of their salary.

http://osc.state.ny.us/retire/employers/tier-6/member_contributions.php

 

No, I live in California. In the left coast state, the public employee unions are still a force. It's been said our politicians are the best union money can buy.

 

Where I live, our bus drivers went on a 3-day sick out (their forbidden by law to strike) because the current contract offer required them to contribute to their defined pension for the first time (7%). Plus they get a 11+% raise over 2 years. Managements offer was turned down 800 to 47.

 

Up until a few years ago our city workers got free life time medical after working only 5 years; its since been amended to 10 years for new hires. Up to 90% of pay for life after 20 years of work or turning 50 whichever is first.

 

Then there was the BART (subway) strikes last year :rolleyes: because train operators some who make $130k in wages and benefits a year wanted more. They got their raise.

 

OBTW, the politicians haven't figured out how to pay for this either.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Philob

[ren0312]

US Law requires that a ship be built in the USA before it can be American flagged. The law also requires American ownership, and a large percentage of the crew with US passports or Green Cards.

 

Building cruise ships is a very competitive and specialized business with slim profit margins.

American shipyards learned long ago that one good US Navy warship contract, with built-in massive cost over runs, will make them far more profit than dozens of cruise ship newbuilds.

 

When NCL America first got started, they had just purchased - for next to nothing - all the makings of 2 American cruise ships. A shipyard in Mississippi had attempted to build 2 new ships for a struggling American cruise line in Hawaii (sound familiar?).

The cruise line went bankrupt before the ships could be finished.

The shipyard had convinced the US Government to fully finance the building of the 2 new ships (with your tax dollars), but then the shipyard went bankrupt anyway.

NCL was happy to take the leftovers off their hands for a few cents on the dollar.

Thank you American taxpayers.

 

US Law - at that time - required the ships to be completed in the USA.

NCL sent out the jobs for bids from all existing American shipyards - most of which were sitting empty, with most of their employees collecting unemployment benefits.

Not one American shipyard even bothered to bid on the jobs.

 

NCL then had to go to the US Congress to get permission to have their "American" ships built in another country.

Congress wanted to protect this new American Cruise venture - and the American Maritime Unions involved - so they granted permission for NCL to have the first of the 2 ships completed in Germany.

 

The hull of the first vessel was nearly intact, so it was floated and towed over to Germany for completion. When the German shipbuilders had a look at the new hull, they declared that it would have to be dismantled and completely re-built. The American shipyard that had started it had built it like a warship; built for speed - not comfort or stability. No surprise, as the former American shipyard's only shipbuilding experience was US Navy warships.

US Congress ruled that if the hull was dismantled and then rebuilt in Germany, it could not be flagged as a US Ship.

So the Germans tried to correct the poor design by pouring concrete ballast between the plates of the double bottom, in order to make the ship more stable.

During this process, a freak winter storm blew through Europe. The waves in the wet dock where the hull was floating washed into the holes that had been cut for the concrete pouring. The nearly finished hull sank to the bottom of the harbor.

 

Then the US Congress had to make another legal exception, allowing NCL to put an American Flag on a completely foreign-built ship (Norwegian Sky - re-named Pride of Aloha), to replace the sunken "American" hull - which later was raised, repaired, and named Pride of America.

 

Then the US congress had to make another exception for the second "American" hull. The hull was actually in many thousands of rusting pieces, in the bankrupt Mississippi shipyard.

But nothing had actually been built yet.

So the US Congress ruled that if the steel had been cut in the USA, the ship could be completely assembled in another country, and still be flagged as if it had been built in the USA. So NCL loaded all the pieces on ocean-going barges and towed them to Germany, where Pride of Hawaii was constructed.

 

Norwegian Sky / Pride of Aloha failed miserably when it was introduced in Hawaii. It lasted a few years, then was re-flagged to Bahamas with an international crew, and given it's old name back. It's now sailing out of Miami?

 

Pride of Hawaii struggled for a few years after going to Hawaii. They couldn't fill the ship at those high prices, and crew turnover was so bad that they couldn't keep enough employees to continue sailing. They re-flagged that to Bahamas, hired an international crew, and renamed it Norwegian Jade. It's now sailing in Europe?

 

Pride of America is still in Hawaii. It still looks like a military ship on the outside and an American Political Museum on the inside. NCL was able to find enough American crew from the former 2 sister ships to have a complete crew pool for the remaining one. All the salt water that got inside the ship when she sank in Germany is slowly eating away at the interior machinery and wiring. The ship continues to bleed money. Sooner or later, NCL's new owners will very quietly get rid of her somehow.

 

It's unlikely that anyone will make that same financial blunder again anytime soon.

 

US workers actually have the lowest minimum wage compared to other countries with a comparable income level.

 

http://www.economist.com/topics/minimum-wage

[ren0312]

And now the few remaining American dry docks are going out of business even faster. Cruise lines sailing out of US ports have tried to schedule their dry docks in the US to avoid the high cost of fuel to reposition the ships to countries that have experienced shipyard workers. Instead, they had been flying in a few foreign workers who built the ships, to supervise American laborers who were hired to assist in the renovations.

 

US Immigration recently ruled that these foreign workers were taking jobs that Americans could perform. (Not true by the way). But US Immigration will no longer issue temporary work visas for the foreign Dry Dock supervisors.

 

In any case, the 2 largest cruise operators, Carnival and RCCL, were forced to get into the dry dock business. They purchased a massive dry dock operation at Grand Bahamas, and now use that space for hundreds of millions of US Dollars in dry docks every year that could have - and should have - gone to the US shipyards. And in the process of saving a few shipyard supervisor jobs for Americans, US Immigration has lost thousands of dry dock jobs for American workers.

Now the cruise lines fly the European Dry Dock supervisors into Grand Bahamas, and hire local Bahamians to perform the work. The Bahamian government owes US Immigration a great debt of gratitude.

 

Those same US workers seem to do well inm BMW, Toyota, and Boeing factories, has anybody checked for Zerg infestation?

[CaveDiving]

....US workers have the least time off of any worker in the industrialized world.

 

Unfortunately, I believe this statement is simply untrue. You only need to consider the French to realize the fallacy inherent in this idea….

 

I hope that you mistakenly typed "untrue" while meaning to say "true" for the last word in you first sentence; and that you meant to type "truth" rather than "fallacy" in the second sentence. Otherwise, there is no point in discussing the point further.

 

You and others are absolutely correct that I did make a dumb mistake in my statement. I don’t know where my mind was when I wrote it. However, the mistake was not in the words you've identified but in my citing the French who have far fewer hours worked each year than the USA (or most other countries for that matter.) I don't know what I was thinking but I must have confused harder with lesser when I incorrectly identified the French as harder working people.

 

Based on information published in the last two years in the Huffington Post, CNN Money and the Organization for Economic Cooperation & Development, the following countries all had more hours worked per worker per year on average than the USA. Some of them averaged more than an additional average 5 hours per week per worker. That is a whole bunch.

 

Mexico

Chile

Greece

Korea

Estonia

Russian Federation

Poland

Israel

Hungary

Turkey

 

So it seems to me very difficult to justify your statement of << US workers have the least time off of any worker in the industrialized world.>>

 

Scott & Karen

[smeyer418]

No, I live in California. In the left coast state, the public employee unions are still a force. It's been said our politicians are the best union money can buy.

 

Where I live, our bus drivers went on a 3-day sick out (their forbidden by law to strike) because the current contract offer required them to contribute to their defined pension for the first time (7%). Plus they get a 11+% raise over 2 years. Managements offer was turned down 800 to 47.

 

Up until a few years ago our city workers got free life time medical after working only 5 years; its since been amended to 10 years for new hires. Up to 90% of pay for life after 20 years of work or turning 50 whichever is first.

 

Then there was the BART (subway) strikes last year :rolleyes: because train operators some who make $130k in wages and benefits a year wanted more. They got their raise.

 

OBTW, the politicians haven't figured out how to pay for this either.

 

there are always some exceptions. CA may be always an exception. Wasn't some Republican named Reagan once governor out there? No more Republicans for a while.

Lifetime medical was once a cheap option to wage increased...no longer.

[smeyer418]

 

Mexico

Chile

Greece

Korea

Estonia

Russian Federation

Poland

Israel

Hungary

Turkey

 

So it seems to me very difficult to justify your statement of << US workers have the least time off of any worker in the industrialized world.>>

 

Scott & Karen

 

 

Lots of industrialized countries there. A bankrupt Greece which Korea? I'll give you Israel as an exception. note more time off than in the US and paid sick leave.

 

http://www.justlanded.com/english/Israel/Israel-Guide/Jobs/Working-Conditions

[navybankerteacher]

Lots of industrialized countries there. A bankrupt Greece which Korea? I'll give you Israel as an exception. note more time off than in the US and paid sick leave.

 

http://www.justlanded.com/english/Israel/Israel-Guide/Jobs/Working-Conditions

 

He did have a strange set of countries he listed as "industrialized" sufficiently to be compared with the US. And your excepting Israel is questionable -- considering working hours, their generous paid sick leave, parental leave, and vacation time

[Philob]

there are always some exceptions. CA may be always an exception. Wasn't some Republican named Reagan once governor out there? No more Republicans for a while.

Lifetime medical was once a cheap option to wage increased...no longer.

 

Arnold "The Terminator" Schwarzenegger was our last Republican (RINO) governor. His ballot initiatives got "terminated" at the ballot box by the labor unions.

 

Enough about this stuff, too nice of a day here.

 

Peace and happy travels :)

[navybankerteacher]

Arnold "The Terminator" Schwarzenegger was our last Republican (RINO) governor. His ballot initiatives got "terminated" at the ballot box by the labor unions.

 

Enough about this stuff, too nice of a day here.

 

Peace and happy travels :)

 

Of course major voting blocks in most states are public employees unions and teachers unions. They contribute heavily to the party which they feel will best serve their interests and their members vote largely as their union leadership urges. Then the elected administrations, at whatever political level, proceeds to negotiate compensation packages with the blocs which put them into office. A potential conflict of interest?