Here come the Americans!!!

[satchiesmom]

greatam,

I'm sorry but IMO much of your post was rude and uncalled for. Having had the pleasure of living in Europe for over 9 years, I am quite familiar with European attitudes about Americans, and haven't heard but the occasional mention of the way we dress. All it takes to be respected is manners and consideration. Fat Butts? How respectful is that? I'm very happy for you that you have achieved such a state of perfection that you are free to criticize and judge other peoples clothing choices. And their size. And their manners. Speaking of manners...

[Cats' slave]

I was going to stay out of this but here I go. I am not disagreeing with the OP about the way people were dressed on her cruise. I am debating the statements about the way Europeans view Americans.

 

When my friend and I go to England we are treated with so much kindness and affection. Over and over people open a conversation saying the British are not as friendly as Americans, and yet they're crawling on the floor helping my friend find an old book or they're catching me when a train stops abruptly. Fierce looking guards at Parliament befriend us, teenaged boys ask us questions about America, a priest at Canterbury Cathedral spent close to an hour talking with us. Everywhere we go, people want to talk about the United States.

 

On the day of a huge demonstration at Hyde Park last spring, some of the subway lines were closed and we asked police officers for help getting back to our hotel. It was an anti-Bush, anti-war protest and the police officers went out of their way to tell us how much the British people love Americans. They said the anti-war group was a small percentage of the people, and even people who were anti-war were not anti-American. They were so gracious and kind.

 

A taxi driver in Dover told us his parent's generation never forgot that the Americans came to England's aid in WWII. Hitler desperately wanted Dover Castle, and without us, they would have lost the war. He talked for perhaps five minutes about how grateful England was to us.

 

My friend and I are middle aged, overweight, happy women who dress casually during the day. Even though nearly every person in London dresses in black, I wear a red coat. Sometimes I even wear jeans. If we go to a show, we do dress up though. No matter what we are wearing, we are always treated well.

 

I have also traveled in Germany, Austria, Estonia, Latvia and Russia. My very long winded point is that Europe does not look down on Americans. If we are the least bit well mannered and friendly, they really like us a great deal.

[CrusinAgain]

I am so happy for you. Your post sounds snotty and holier than thou. I find it offensive but more power to you. I'm sure you are pretty proud that you are so much better than the average American. Guess its okay for those in Europe who don't use deoderant and who do not shave their underarms and legs. Yeah....that's being glamorous.

 

Thanks for showing the type of quests that the QE2 serves. I won't be going on it. I have had my fill of uppity ups. Give me a true down to earth honest person who isn't dressed to the hilt over this any day of the week. Thanks for the laugh.

[MrsMoose2001]

Here you go again with the EXPENSIVE clothes thing. I said absolutely NOTHING about EXPENSIVE. In fact, for the third time, the most elegantly dressed woman on the ship personally told me she bought all her clothing at consignment shops and Ebay.

 

No you said nothing about expensive but you keep calling them "cheap denim jeans" if price is not an issue, then why bring in the word cheap. The opposite of cheap is expensive.

 

Originally Posted by MrsMoose2001

And if you want to call Americans rude, then saying someone had a "fat butt" in my opinion is rude. Wanting to take a picture and make fun of someone who could not even defend themselves is beyond tacky and rude in my opinion.

 

I said the picture thing was tacky on my part.

After you husband said so or you probably would have done it. And if you thought it wel.....

 

Originally Posted by MrsMoose2001

And what about the 1/3 Americans who were on the transatlantic crossing. Where they dressed badly. Perhaps it was the "trip" that changed the tone of the dress. NYC to FLA is not a transatlantic crossing.

 

All the Americans PRE NYC was dressed very elegantly. Even in the daytime, I saw NO jeans. Lots of Dockers, lots of sweater sets, lots of sport coats and polo shirts. The NYC to FLL was a bonus offered to those on the transatlantic. It was NOT offered as a segment in itself. Everyone who embarked in NYC was on the QE2 AT LEAST until Los Angeles-I think 16 days.

 

So it was the New Yorkers who were dressed badly? How do you know that these people were all Americans, many people fly into NY to board a ship? And by your own comments, the PRE NYC Americans were dressed to your standards, so not ALL Americans were dressed badly so why the here come the Americans comment?

 

Originally Posted by MrsMoose2001

As for dress changing manners, I can't say it's always true.

 

No one said it's always true. But it sure does help.

 

Ok

 

Originally Posted by MrsMoose2001

The same thing for the Americans who were badly dressed. They were not representing their USA, they were representing themselves.

 

NO, they were perceived as AMERICANS and foreign value judgements followed.

 

These people still did not represent the USA, they represent themselves. I doubt very much that any country can say all of it's citizens dress well/appropriately/property or whatever you want to call it to your standards.

You say that these people were perceived to be Americans. Personally I think to say that someone will be perceived to be from somehwere or that an entire population as large as the USA dresses a certain way or looks a certain way is ignorant and sterotyping.

 

You say you own a trucking firm? well would it be fair if people were to generalize and sterotype truckers? I don't think so. I happen to know a truck driver who is extremely polite. He and his wife are one of the most gracious host/hostess I've ever met. No fears they don't cruise, can't afford to, and they don't dress great and they are not americans. They dress to their budget and acoording to their lifestyle and to what they like. But they are polite, well mannered people. Extremely polite and well mannered. And as far as selfish goes with clothing choices, well sorry, but these people work for charities in their spare time, raised money for women's shelters, autisim research and are the first to offer to help out if a friend needs help. Most people who judge by clothing standards would shy away from this couple. Their 3 children are polite and well mannered and a credit to their parents regardless of their clothing choices. And I'm sure many other truckers are the same as this couple that they are not an exception. So to say a selfish ME attitude is reflected in clothing choices, I don't agree at all.

 

Originally Posted by MrsMoose2001

I live with criticism of Americans every day. I hear the criticism and hatred almost everyday, in fact it's become almost a national passtime. For many reasons, but never once did I hear it about the clothing.

 

Think about the criticisms you hear-they are all wrapped into the selfish, ME, ME, ME attitude definitely associated with America and that selfishness is reflected in clothing choices and appearances.

 

No actually that is not what I hear. Now you are perceiveing to tell me what I hear? I can assure you the comments and criticisms are not about clothing choices and not about a selfish ME attitude. I think we can find selfish ME attitude people in every country and culture. People like to criticize other people/countries/cultures without looking to themselves first, it's easier that way.

 

I also think that being selfish has nothing to do with clothing choices. I can think of several people that I have known who are always dressed appropriately don't have "fat butts" and some that were dressed in couture desinger fashions that were extremely selfish, they gave new meaning to the world selfish in fact.

 

I believe in following rules and guidelines. They are there for a reason whatever that reason is. And when I read the posts that the lovely ladies here on the board write, I read about their love of fashion/clothes/style/and about takeing pride in themselves, in their appearance and in their familes. I never once read that they are doing it for the USA or whatever country they live in, they are doing it for themselves, unless I missed a sentenace that said "I'm dressing appropriately because I want to represent the USA in a good light".

 

And when you talk about what 8 - 10 even 20 people dressed improperly or badly or whatever, on a ship that holds what 2000 people or even 3000 people what percentage is that? And what percentage does that make in the total population of the USA?

 

And I for one find it more offensive and disrespectful to the USA to criticize the way you did than someone wearing an improper outfit. Not to mention that you genearlized about europeans. Not all europeans as several other posters stated view us the way you described.

 

You talk about 6 people (3 couples) who made these comments.? Even 100 people does not make an entire euopean population.

 

Are you saying that there are no europeans who dress badly or improperly?

 

As for the 3 couples who did not want to be subjected to vulgar american dress codes, they gave their country a bad rep in my opinion. Would they have simply said, they refuse to be sujected to improper attire, that would have been fine, rules are rules and I respect that, but why bring in an entire country for what 8 or 10 people are doing. They just genearlized and put down an entire country and it's population. I guess they don't get out much or travel a lot or read a US fashion magazine or attend a gala or ball in the USA or even come to this board and read how the American ladies and gents here take pride in the way they dress.

 

I wonder what these people said behind your back because after all you still are an American. If these so proper european people would have had manners, they would have left out the word American simply to be polite to you. If you think about it, they gave you an indirect "slap" at least that is my personal opinion.

[mandm2]

In my opinion, gtreatam should probably stop talking so much. She is coming off exactly like the "ugly american" she is describing.

 

My husband is British, smells nice, dresses nice when he has too; casually when he doesn't. We both in great jobs, are educated and are polite to those around us. We've also both seen the best and worst of alot of countries and in the US. However, the bottom line is that no matter where you are in the world there will be people who look better, dress better, behave better and smell better than the Americans. In the same token, there are also people in this world who behave worse than Americans and dress worse (and, shockingly, are heavier than some Americans).

greatam-don't get too caught up in your opinion on how other countries view americans-it sounds to me that you probably are not a very happy person and needs to pick on someone to make yourself feel better.

 

Just on a side note, a personal experience with a non-american. I was on a return business trip from Paris to London a couple of years ago, and was to be connected in London for my journey home to Boston. I was traveling business class. The plane was delayed, so tensions were a bit high I must admit, when we landed in London. I stood up to get into the aisle to depar the plane, with my seat-mate (who was a Brit). All of a sudden a Japanese business man pushed (very hard) through us to get off the plane, saying he was going to miss his flight. No "excuse me please", no "sorry".. nothing. I was appalled at this behaviour, since pretty much everyone on the flight was going to miss their connection, but he was the only person I observed to be so deserving of getting off the plane first.

My point is, is that it's not only Americans that act rude.

[MrsMoose2001]

http://www.mekong.net/cambodia/ugly_am.htm

 

a good explaination of how the phase came to be. Nothing to do with "the clothes on our backs.

[MrsMoose2001]

In my opinion, gtreatam should probably stop talking so much. She is coming off exactly like the "ugly american" she is describing.

 

My husband is British, smells nice, dresses nice when he has too; casually when he doesn't. We both in great jobs, are educated and are polite to those around us. We've also both seen the best and worst of alot of countries and in the US. However, the bottom line is that no matter where you are in the world there will be people who look better, dress better, behave better and smell better than the Americans. In the same token, there are also people in this world who behave worse than Americans and dress worse (and, shockingly, are heavier than some Americans).

greatam-don't get too caught up in your opinion on how other countries view americans-it sounds to me that you probably are not a very happy person and needs to pick on someone to make yourself feel better.

 

Just on a side note, a personal experience with a non-american. I was on a return business trip from Paris to London a couple of years ago, and was to be connected in London for my journey home to Boston. I was traveling business class. The plane was delayed, so tensions were a bit high I must admit, when we landed in London. I stood up to get into the aisle to depar the plane, with my seat-mate (who was a Brit). All of a sudden a Japanese business man pushed (very hard) through us to get off the plane, saying he was going to miss his flight. No "excuse me please", no "sorry".. nothing. I was appalled at this behaviour, since pretty much everyone on the flight was going to miss their connection, but he was the only person I observed to be so deserving of getting off the plane first.

My point is, is that it's not only Americans that act rude.

 

Very well said, I agree!!!

[Juliadlf]

However, the bottom line is that no matter where you are in the world there will be people who look better, dress better, behave better and smell better than the Americans. In the same token, there are also people in this world who behave worse than Americans and dress worse (and, shockingly, are heavier than some Americans).

Ditto mandm2.:)

[Jane110]

I have friends, a married couple - wife is british, husband is american - they live in Brittany, a part of northern France, which has a large british population.

 

To interject a little lightness into this thread.....

 

They have a saying in France about clothing and fashion.....

 

The British don't match.

The American's match.

The French match better.

 

Jane

[madelinerose]

Phew! Thanks, Jane! This thread needs a little levity! ;)

 

I have friends, a married couple - wife is british, husband is american - they live in Brittany, a part of northern France, which has a large british population.To interject a little lightness into this thread.....

 

They have a saying in France about clothing and fashion.....

 

The British don't match.

The American's match.

The French match better.Jane

[Soxfan05]

Jane, loved your little ditty.

 

Mrs. Moose, I agree with all you're saying.

 

 

As far as those comments from the original post:

 

Snappy red uniforms didn't do anything for the Brits during the AMERICAN REVOLUTION. I'm thinking those folks still can't get over that a bunch of underdressed scalliwags defeated His Majesty's Army of well dressed soldiers.

[Sassy Chassis]

Just on a side note, a personal experience with a non-american. I was on a return business trip from Paris to London a couple of years ago, and was to be connected in London for my journey home to Boston. I was traveling business class. The plane was delayed, so tensions were a bit high I must admit, when we landed in London. I stood up to get into the aisle to depar the plane, with my seat-mate (who was a Brit). All of a sudden a Japanese business man pushed (very hard) through us to get off the plane, saying he was going to miss his flight. No "excuse me please", no "sorry".. nothing. I was appalled at this behaviour, since pretty much everyone on the flight was going to miss their connection, but he was the only person I observed to be so deserving of getting off the plane first.

My point is, is that it's not only Americans that act rude.

 

I've never gotten shoved by an Asian...but I have gotten shoved by many a German! :rolleyes:

[Happy ks]

One of my goals in life is to become a more gracious person. Because it seems to me that society has lost a lot of its grace. I know I fall short in many ways, but I keep trying. I don't care what nationality you are, true grace makes a more beautiful, generous and desirable person to be with than any clothing or money could ever achieve.

 

I have had the opportunity to work with people from many different backgrounds and nationalities. There are both wonderful and nasty people from every country on earth. The worst are the ones who make assumptions of you based on your birth place.

[firstcruisehelp]

I wasn't aware that jeans were vulgar. Maybe I'm just an ignorant american, but who cares what other people wear. I just don't understand how jeans and a tee can be so offensive. People are there to have a good time, not be judged. Unless there's "stuff" hanging out everywhere, I just don't see what the problem is.

[Sassy Chassis]

Because it seems to me that society has lost a lot of its grace.

 

Too true. Thanks for saying it.

[mrsred]

One of my goals in life is to become a more gracious person. Because it seems to me that society has lost a lot of its grace. I know I fall short in many ways, but I keep trying. I don't care what nationality you are, true grace makes a more beautiful, generous and desirable person to be with than any clothing or money could ever achieve.

 

I have had the opportunity to work with people from many different backgrounds and nationalities. There are both wonderful and nasty people from every country on earth. The worst are the ones who make assumptions of you based on your birth place.

Excellent point Kathy!

 

We're all human...ever culture has their good points and bad points.

 

If we take the time to look past the flaws, you can meet some really great people...regardless of where they come from, their financial situation, or how they dress.

 

We could all use a little more of grace in our lives.

 

~e

[MrsMoose2001]

One of my goals in life is to become a more gracious person. Because it seems to me that society has lost a lot of its grace. I know I fall short in many ways, but I keep trying. I don't care what nationality you are, true grace makes a more beautiful, generous and desirable person to be with than any clothing or money could ever achieve.

 

I have had the opportunity to work with people from many different backgrounds and nationalities. There are both wonderful and nasty people from every country on earth. The worst are the ones who make assumptions of you based on your birth place.

 

First Jane thanks for the rhyme, very good, I'll have to remember that!

 

So true HappyKS and MsRed, and it is very sad. I think thisis happening because families/people today in general are more stressed.

 

I too agree that I've met people from all walks of life and many different nationalities, finaicnial backgrounds, etc etc. and there is good and bad in every group. I don't like stereotyping and generalizations.

[Mark]

Did I forget to mention that most European women do not use a razor and do not own one! Also, let's expand our comparison to our friends from the Middle East and India/Pakistan who always look like they need a shave, haircut and a bath. Out attitudes may need work but at least we are clean!:cool:

[ciderapple]

This whole thread has appalled me.

 

Many of you have made sweeping statements and generalisations about people from different countries and cultures that you will never understand.

 

Mark, I am offended by your comment about people from the Middle East, India and Pakistan, how dare you judge people like that!

 

For your information many European women do use razors, but many use other methods of hair removal such as waxing.

 

Since living in America I have had to come to terms with witnessing lower standards of hygiene in many places, this country is by no means perfect. You have to be more tolerant if you want to venture outside your own culture.

[beachbrat]

I am a frequent cruiser. I do adhere to the dress codes for the dining rooms, etc. Outside of that, I dress how I want. If you don't like it, don't look. I cruise to relax and enjoy myself, not to impress some snooty a@@ Brit or any other European or American for that matter. I go to relax, not to judge or be judged....

[Spikesmom]

I love my Hermes scarves and wear them often. They have a book that they will give you if you buy some, on how to tie them if you need it.

 

They also show you which jeans they look best with!:)

[davoni]

Look just face it - Americans are known for their size and a lot do have big butts! Dress appropriately people! God bless America.;)

[Jane110]

Look just face it - Americans are known for their size and a lot do have big butts! Dress appropriately people! God bless America.;)

 

I've seen my share of big butts on some of the locals in Queensland. :)

 

Jane (a size 6 american)

[beachbrat]

Beachbrat -- American, on a HEAVY day...size 2

[Mrs. Flamed FXSTC]

Quite the interesting thread!

 

Hubby and I are taking our first cruise in November. While there is a very clear understanding about formal dinner nights on most cruises, there is no other mention of a standard for casual clothing. In fact, in the US, jeans are standard casual clothing. I haven't seen anything that stated business casual was recommended.

 

My husband works with a number of gentlemen who travel here from Holland on a regular basis and they all have standing orders from their families to go to the nearest mall and buy LEVIS. Apparently they're outrageously expensive over there. Maybe that's why they don't wear jeans???;)

 

I've had limited exposure to Europeans, but my husband and I were the only Americans on a Louisana boat tour a few years ago. The other 50 or so passengers were made up of Brits and Germans and there wasn't a single polite one in the bunch. I was literally elbowed in the face by a German fellow who was standing behind me and wanted me out of his way so he could take a picture of an aligator. Put his elbow in my face and shoved me out of his way. Do I think all Euros are rude...no, but this group sure was, and yes they smelled bad too!

 

After reading all of this I'm glad that our first cruise will be with the Hogs on the High Seas. We'll be with 1200+ motorcycle enthusiasts and the ship has even changed formal night for us....leather required! Jeans and t-shirts recommended for all other dining! Bet that would set those Brits on their arses!:D