Mutany on the Mary

[amyr]

 

The contract, however, does not absolve Cunard of all potential liability if there is reason to believe that the harm to the passengers was caused by gross negligence by the Captain or his bridge staff. If Cunard is found to be liable, the passengers could claim monetary damages from loss of privileges to mental anguish.

 

Hello all,

 

I've wandered over from my usual haunts, finding all of this fascinating. I have a question - would the ship have been in the hands of the port pilot at the time of the accident? I know that in places like the Panama Canal the Captain is not technically in command, isn't that how it works in the ports as well? Weren't they still in the channel? Just wondering, as on my recent transatlantic we waited quite a way off shore for the local Ft. Lauderdale pilot to board and take us in. Forgive me if this has been discussed, but I didn't see it in any of my thread skimming.

 

If, in fact, all those people removed their tips (how disgusting) I would love to hear that Carnival stepped in and funded the pool to make up for it. Not likely, I know, but it would be the right thing to do.

 

Amy

[carlmm]

I know that in places like the Panama Canal the Captain is not technically in command, isn't that how it works in the ports as well?

 

The Panamal Canal is the exception. Normally the Captain stays in command eben with a Pilot on board. What ever the Pilot suggest or direct the Captain has the final responsibility in most places.

 

If, in fact, all those people removed their tips (how disgusting) I would love to hear that Carnival stepped in and funded the pool to make up for it. Not likely, I know, but it would be the right thing to do.

 

Totally right. It is almost unbelievabel passengers are doing this. The first people who really suffered from the cancellations were all the people waiting for them in the place to be visited - drivers, guides, vendors etc., who lost their income. Worst maybe in Salvador as least visited by cruises.

Now also the hard working people on board are made victims.

Hoepfully people redecide or Carnival indeed steps in.

 

One thougth: When I talked to a Cunard (Carnival /Princess what ever) representative about changes, cuts and decreases in standard disliked by loyal Cunard travellers some time ago, I was told that they knew this but were not interested in the traditional Cunard traveller. Instead, in best business interest, they wanted to attract a new clientel. - Maybe they got it!

[Allis154]

One thougth: When I talked to a Cunard (Carnival /Princess what ever) representative about changes, cuts and decreases in standard disliked by loyal Cunard travellers some time ago, I was told that they knew this but were not interested in the traditional Cunard traveller. Instead, in best business interest, they wanted to attract a new clientel. - Maybe they got it!

 

I had also heard this. And I was thinking the same thing!

[amyr]

The Panamal Canal is the exception. Normally the Captain stays in command eben with a Pilot on board. What ever the Pilot suggest or direct the Captain has the final responsibility in most places.

 

Thanks, Carl, I had been trying to work this out in my head. That just opens up a whole new area for finger pointing!

[TommyC]

So, here I am, sitting in my office eating a roast beef sandwich and drinking 7UP out of a can. It’s cold, cloudy, miserable – been pouring most of the night and today. Well, it is winter and the weather is supposed to be ‘wintry’ – go figure.

And, there are people on a beautiful, new ship, in warm weather, at sea, probably getting great service and food, who have had their itinerary altered due to an unanticipated, unplanned, unexpected problem, who have now been offered 50% credit on their cruise costs and are complaining and threatening mutiny (or something like that)????

Folks – what am I missing?????????????????????????

I know – it’s like the time I went to Cancun for a week and it rained for 3 days. Maybe I should demanded all my money back from the airlines and the hotel or sued the US and Mexican Weather Service - it was all their fault. I think they made this happen.

Or, it was like the time I went skiing in April in Utah and it was too hot to ski in the afternoon and the snow got too ‘mushy and sticky’. Never mind that the skiing was great in the morning or that we got a great suntan at the rooftop pool in the afternoon - I should have sued the US Weather Service, the State of Utah or maybe even the people who own Snowbird! I know they planned this – intentionally.

Hey – I’ve been on two cruises that were changed and altered – one for a hurricane, the other for mechanical/engine issues. Yes, I was disappointed, maybe even slightly annoyed (for a minute or two). I didn’t ask for or expect anything!

Please; past present and future passengers - suck it up and make the best of it. It is a vacation. Go and vacation. Think positive. There is no direct damage or harm; nothing sank or caught fire; you really didn’t expect to feel the ship moving either, did you…. Is this the attitude you take with yourself when your vehicle breaks down since you have not had the oil changed?

Now – to Cunard: Please, the next time you plan one of these events or happenings, would you please let me know? I’d like to plan accordingly and be part of the adventure. And I wouldn’t mind the 50% credit either.

Lastly - it's not the fault of the staff or crew either.... Don't dump on them. Cheers !!! :)

[kataiga]

The Panamal Canal is the exception. Normally the Captain stays in command eben with a Pilot on board. What ever the Pilot suggest or direct the Captain has the final responsibility in most places.

 

 

 

Totally right. It is almost unbelievabel passengers are doing this. The first people who really suffered from the cancellations were all the people waiting for them in the place to be visited - drivers, guides, vendors etc., who lost their income. Worst maybe in Salvador as least visited by cruises.

Now also the hard working people on board are made victims.

Hoepfully people redecide or Carnival indeed steps in.

 

One thougth: When I talked to a Cunard (Carnival /Princess what ever) representative about changes, cuts and decreases in standard disliked by loyal Cunard travellers some time ago, I was told that they knew this but were not interested in the traditional Cunard traveller. Instead, in best business interest, they wanted to attract a new clientel. - Maybe they got it!

 

 

A lot of people may have booked private tours already payed for by credit card, who loose then ??:confused:

[colleency]

This quote from the end of the BBC article disgusts me beyond belief,

 

"As father to not one but two passengers on board, I can tell you, that an offer of 50% compensation is about as adequate as taping a peice of cardboard to the gaping hole in the Titanic. These people have been lied to...and what of the 1000 in Rio yet to board? John Templesmith, Perth Australia"

How dare this man compare his children's inconvenience of not going on a couple of day trips with the loss of over 1500 lives?

 

Furthermore, the witholding tips from the crew is akin to rioters that destroy their own neighborhoods. It doesn't ameliorate their own situation. It merely serves to damage more people.

 

My sympathy for these complainers is waning very, very quickly.

[colleency]

I tried to edit my above comments, but I couldn't get it to work.

 

I guess I was slightly hasty. The comment above was made by a man not actually aboard. (But it still makes me angry.)

 

I can't say that I completely understand these people's situations, because I'm not there. I do think that calls of mutiny and sit-ins over something as trivial as a "ruined" vacation are ridiculous. Some of the people need to get some perspective on life. They are probably the ones that ruined their own vacation.

[guernseyguy]

Some of the people need to get some perspective on life. They are probably the ones that ruined their own vacation.

 

Here Here! The sooner they are off the ship in Rio, the happier the rest will be!

 

Peter

[medon]

This is getting really silly, how is staying in their cabins goingto help?

 

All that will suffer are the passengers boarding at Rio who include ME so if 'mr sit in passenger' if you are in my bed when I get on you will be gone believe me.

 

This whole thing is out of hand.What if the weather prevented ALL ports of call? Whining like this just spoils your holiday.

 

And whats all this rubish about wanting free booze? What I saw last time on QM2 was loads of passengers sitting with 1 drink all day and complaining about anyone who smoked within 2 miles of them.

 

Remember that some people have to actually work manually to enjoy a holiday and have not got the means to afford the high life so spoil your own holiday not ours.

 

The Austrailians had the right word when they called us whinging poms!

 

Spoil your own holiday because you won't spoil ours.

[Ldybrnwyn]

Truly amazing I cannot believe this whole thing. For me at least, and I suspect a whole lot of others, part of booking with Cunard is to travel on their special ships, less about the ports of call although a trip around the Horn is certainly interesting! What that means is that I could be parked at anchor somewhere for 38 days on the QM2 and still have a good time. Where we go is just background scenery. Thats why I have booked the Winter Crossing in 2007, while it was mild this year I have little or no intention of spending much time outdoors watching the North Atlantic go by. Instead I will be reintroducing myself to a ship that I have not been on since 2002 and enjoying the fine company of the hearty pax that make up the Winter Crossing.

 

 

 

You might want to consider that while you consider 38 days on the QM 2 parked at anchor to be a lovely vacation, others might not. Yes, things happen, and breakdowns occur. But waiting to tell passengers until just after the ship departs that all of the intervening port stops between Florida and Rio are cancelled smacks of dishonesty, and I can understand why some passengers are irate. I do think that holding back tips for the staff is a poor way of showing displeasure, because the staff you tip had nothing to do with the whole mess, and it would be sad to see them become collateral damage.

 

I think that some damage repair is needed on the QM2, and not just for the azipod.

 

Cheers,

Barb

 

Barb,

 

While I applaud your good faith in humankind, I do have to say (after working for years in the hospitality industry) that there are people who will make huge deals out of well.......what shouldn't be huge deals. Big deal, maybe, but not as much as these people are making it out to be.

 

Last time I was onboard I heard men making open and vulgar passes as the waitstaff (man and woman) and people plotting at their tables to see what they could "complain" about to get money back or extra perks. People like that do exist, unfortunate though it may be.

 

I would consider my vacation ruined if I ended up in a life boat. Past that, if you're not willing to take the risks associated with sea travel, pick another venue. No one forced them on board. And no one forced them to sign a legally binding contract.

 

As for the lateness of the notice, you might want to read that contract. They aren't required to give ANY notice. And, it's a standard contract. you'd get it on any line. It is legally binding and these people don't have a leg to stand on. And, possibly, the lateness of the notice might very well have been a security issue.

 

The only thing they've lost is the 6 days and their being refunded in part for that. Another point Cunard is not legally obligated to provide (again, standard contract). That Cunard is willing to go above and beyond what they're actually legally obligated to do, speaks well of them. It also tells me that they're trying to make sure that they make up for the incident.....an incident that wasn't even their fault and one they couldn't have prevented (wait for the coast guard's report.....I lay you odds it was the port's pilot).

 

If they'd kept to the original itinerary they would be late coming back. Some people on board might lose their jobs if they took more vacation than they said they would and it would have a dominoe effect on every cruise after that. I'm not willing to sacrifice my vacation to this bunch.

 

I understand and sympathize with the frustration. But they have been using the amenties and services on board so they should have to pay SOMETHING for that.

 

There is a way to graciously and civily air grievances. This behavior is downright juvenile and abusive.

 

I only hope they take it too far and officially fall into the "security risk" category and are escorted off the ship never to return. Do they really think it's acceptable to ruin everyone else's vacation too?

 

The head pursor, the cruise director and even the Commodore can only provide so much compensation without the approval of Corporate. Why these people aren't willing to enjoy what they have of their vacation and leave the complaining for when they get back is beyond me.

 

Then again, I wish I were a fly on the wall at the crew's mess and bar. Now THAT would be funny :)

[guernseyguy]

Well, the BBC are enjoying keeping this going:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4640436.stm

 

Peter

[amyr]

I feel quite confident that once they realize that all this posturing isn't going to get them any more compensation than they've already been offered, the mob mentality will shift. As they near Rio, they will feel they can't spend one more day on this horrible ship where they've been held hostage, etc., etc., blah, blah, blah. They'll be running off the ship as fast as they can, mark my words.

 

Too bad the crew and other passengers have to suffer in the meantime. If (as reported) 1,500 people have really removed their tips, do you suppose it's really that many people grousing and carrying on? OMG, there would be nowhere to go to escape it! I hope they are all staying in their rooms.

[bigo]

Aside from the crazy talk about mutinies, sit-ins, drink-ins, etc., the awful part about this whole thing is holding back on tips for the staff. Through all of this, no one has complained about the quality of the service or staff. It seems unjust to hold them responsible, even if it was Cunard's fault. (which it doesn't seem to be).

When I board in Febraury, I just hope there is someone that won't leave my room. I think they will find themselves a little....wet.

Only 34 days to Hawaii!!

[Ldybrnwyn]

In reference to the post earlier.....

 

While it is true that you can't be expected so sign away liability, any court would consider that those on board were aware there are inherent risks with sea travel and chose to get on board the vessel anyway. If Cunard can show that the lateness in notifiying the passengers of the altered itinerary was a security and not a beaurocratic issue, then I think their pretty much clear.

 

As far as legal action goes, Cunard is sitting much prettier than these passengers.

 

Free booze........yeah right. The crew is going to allow irate passengers who are threatening mutiny to get juiced up. Excuse me????!!!!

[travel-to-go]

Today we are crossing the equator at noon. Spoke with the pursers office. She told me that 1500 people have taken away their tips from the crew. .

 

They meet in small groups throughout the ship and try to get people more angry.

 

Anyway Having a lovely time. Food is actually quite good and the service is exceptional.Can't wait to see what happens in Rio. They will have security all over the ship the pursers office told me.

 

Melissa

 

Melissa,

Did they have the traditional ceremony for crossing the equator? I have never (yet) crossed. Some day!

 

As for the tips- Here is something we learned from our waiter- If you cancel the automatic tips and give your tip directly to the personnel, they must hand it over and pool it. If you give additional tip to the personnel but leave the automatic tip on your onboard account, they get to keep the extra you gave them personally. I do not know what percentage of people normally take the tips off their onboard account so they can tip their waiter/steward, etc personally, (and I know that some do) but that is something to bear in mind. ( We were at table number 152, second seating. Our waiter was Zoltan from Hungary)

 

Continue having a marvelous time (and to Jack at Sea, also) This is reading like a cheap dime novel. When I read about the two posts about the Challenger and the Columbia, I got all choked up. I still remember both (my father was in the industry and I grew up near Cape Canaveral) It does sort of put it all in perspective. Any one those upset ones- please, tell them I will gladly suffer the torture of being on the largest grandest most majestic passenger ship afloat, on the open seas. eating gourmet food non-stop, doing pub trivia (Jack, I can give you the answer's to last weeks questions!) Heck, I will even drink in the bars! (as well as my room!) It's the least I can do to ease their pain. Have them send me the unused portions of their tickets!

Did I mention my half hour commute this morning took an hour and a half in ice, snow, slush, freezing rain, sleet, .. Oh never mind! <G>

Enjoy!

Thanks for keeping us informed!

Thanks for sharing with us.

Karie, back at work in the mundane world in Connecticut.

[guernseyguy]

It's this simple; Cunard Line entered into a contract with their passengers

...which says (Booking Condition #28): 'After departure Cunard does not guarantee that the ship will call at every port on the itinerary...[and] reserves the absolute right whether or not to omit any such ports.....and more stuff about compensation

 

As you say, its simple. Cunard are sticking to their contract, and have passengers threatening to break theirs.

 

Peter

[2moose]

When All Else Fails Read The Contract That You Read, Signed And Agreed To!!! If In Fact There Is A Better Chance Of The Brit Passengers Reaping An Award For Damages In The Uk Than Perhaps The Previous Mentioned Solicitor Would Represent All Those That Are Interested On A No Fee Contingency Basis.

[smeyer418]

It's this simple;

 

Cunard Line entered into a contract with their passengers to convey them (for some the holiday of a lifetime - probably not the likes of us lot reading this - Her Loveliness & I went on four cruises last year, all without mishap) from New York to Rio de Janeiro.

 

There were scheduled stops en-route, on St. Christopher; (nice place, geat views of Nevis, only ever visited Frankie Zuliani's casino), Barbados; (fantastic beaches and wonderful history of the British Empire, colonisation, piracy, and the Americas) and Salvador de Bahia, Brazil, (one of the first colonised ports of South America, bastion of the transatlantic slave trade and the legacy of the Spanish and Portuguese conquistadors). These ports of call were all scrubbed.

 

Moreover, QM2 was due to land in Rio de Janeiro on Thursday 26th January, with an overnight layover till the 27th. The new, curtailed itinerary has QM2 arriving on Friday 27th.

 

Many passengers will have arranged flights leaving Rio on the 27th. Thus they will have no time to spend in what is perhaps a top-ten all time destination, before they have to worry about an airport check-in.

 

So, in the case of the twelve day cruisers from New York to Rio de Janeiro, Cunard Line have patently failed to deliver.

 

Folks, this really has no more to do with the failures of N.A.S.A.'s space shuttle than it has to do with Amerigo Vespucci's voyage of 1501, which unlike QM2, did not fail to make landfall in Salvador.

 

In Britain, we have a law called the "Unfair Contract Terms Act", which means that anything printed in "terms and conditions" such as on the back of your ticket is null and void if a judge thinks so. Moreover, we also have the "The Package Travel, Package Holidays and Package Tours Regulations 1992 " which is very rigorous in insisting that all holidays meet with what was offered.

 

I think that where Cunard went wrong was that they offered 100% rebate to the 38 day cruisers, but only 50% rebate to the 12 day cruisers, who arguably had their vacation more disrupted. I note that as I write, according to Google news, 234 newspapers have this story, compared to none yesterday.

 

I think if this went to court in the UK, a court would award 70-80% of the total cruise fare, depending on the sob-story presented to the judge.

 

Anyone who is unhappy with the voyage they have taken and who booked through a UK travel agent might like to take advice from a Solicitor specialising in travel disputes: Ros Fernihough Ros@fjo.co.uk

 

Interesting actually. The cruise contract has both a choice ol law provision(US Law- State of Florida) and a venue provision- must sue in Courts in Dade(Miami County). These choice of law/venue provisions are generally enforced. Florida also has a duty of fair dealings common law provisions. To sue in England the courts would have to find that these law/venue provisions are unfair. You also have an issue of comity whether one government will disregard those laws of another government. Makes interesting reading about 10 years later only the lawyers will make money.

[SomeBeach]

ABC World News is getting ready (5:45 CST) to run a story on the ship's problem.

I would have told you earlier but the boards were giving me problems.... sorry.

[Ldybrnwyn]

I'm sure some passengers got the raw end of the deal. That being said, I'm sure if they took it up with the Corporate office when they got back they'd be much more likely to get what they want. Tearing the Commodore a new one; making the staff suffer; making threats (idle or otherwise) just doesn't strengthen their argument. When I'm unhappy with a meal and or service at a restaurant I take it up with the manager or their corporate offices (if they're a chain). I don't make a scene and I don't get the waitstaff a hard time unless they actually did something physically harmful (broken glass on my plate for instance). I find that if I use the appropriate key word "customer satisfaction" and the like, the powers that be usually respond very well.

 

They should calm down, disembark when they supposed to, quietly contact their lawyer via email while on board (if the computers are back up :-P ), see if they have a case and take it up when they get back.

 

When my husband was on board for a Carribean cruise, they had a jumper. He went off the stern (left a note) so QM2 HAD to go back. They searched the water (night time so it wasn't easy to do) and got 4 hours off their schedule. They made all the arrangments for flight rescheduling, complimentary transportation to the airports, baggage handling and hotel rooms for those people who had already missed their flights. They're a good company and they'll take care of their passengers.

 

Even with that, there were still passengers who complained their vacation was ruined because the Captain (not Warwick on that trip) had the audacity to double back and try to save someone's life.

 

Tracy

[Ldybrnwyn]

I'm sure some passengers got the raw end of the deal. That being said, I'm sure if they took it up with the Corporate office when they got back they'd be much more likely to get what they want. Tearing the Commodore a new one; making the staff suffer; making threats (idle or otherwise) just doesn't strengthen their argument. When I'm unhappy with a meal and or service at a restaurant I take it up with the manager or their corporate offices (if they're a chain). I don't make a scene and I don't get the waitstaff a hard time unless they actually did something physically harmful (broken glass on my plate for instance). I find that if I use the appropriate key word "customer satisfaction" and the like, the powers that be usually respond very well.

 

They should calm down, disembark when they supposed to, quietly contact their lawyer via email while on board (if the computers are back up :-P ), see if they have a case and take it up when they get back.

 

When my husband was on board for a Carribean cruise, they had a jumper. He went off the stern (left a note) so QM2 HAD to go back. They searched the water (night time so it wasn't easy to do) and got 4 hours off their schedule. They made all the arrangments for flight rescheduling, complimentary transportation to the airports, baggage handling and hotel rooms for those people who had already missed their flights. They're a good company and they'll take care of their passengers.

 

Even with that, there were still passengers who complained their vacation was ruined because the Captain (not Warwick on that trip) had the audacity to double back and try to save someone's life.

 

Tracy

[SomeBeach]

In case any of you missed it.....

It's being called Mutiny on the Queen Mary.

People were upset before they even left FL and it turned to anger when 3 ports were dropped. Many of the passengers say they are not getting off the ship when it docks on Thrus in Rio.

Cunard representative says they feel a very fair offer has been made to passengers.

[Ldybrnwyn]

I'm sure some passengers got the raw end of the deal. That being said, I'm sure if they took it up with the Corporate office when they got back they'd be much more likely to get what they want. Tearing the Commodore a new one; making the staff suffer; making threats (idle or otherwise) just doesn't strengthen their argument. When I'm unhappy with a meal and or service at a restaurant I take it up with the manager or their corporate offices (if they're a chain). I don't make a scene and I don't get the waitstaff a hard time unless they actually did something physically harmful (broken glass on my plate for instance). I find that if I use the appropriate key word "customer satisfaction" and the like, the powers that be usually respond very well.

 

They should calm down, disembark when they supposed to, quietly contact their lawyer via email while on board (if the computers are back up :-P ), see if they have a case and take it up when they get back.

 

When my husband was on board for a Carribean cruise, they had a jumper. He went off the stern (left a note) so QM2 HAD to go back. They searched the water (night time so it wasn't easy to do) and got 4 hours off their schedule. They made all the arrangments for flight rescheduling, complimentary transportation to the airports, baggage handling and hotel rooms for those people who had already missed their flights. They're a good company and they'll take care of their passengers.

 

Even with that, there were still passengers who complained their vacation was ruined because the Captain (not Warwick on that trip) had the audacity to double back and try to save someone's life.

 

Tracy

[2moose]

I feel quite confident that once they realize that all this posturing isn't going to get them any more compensation than they've already been offered, the mob mentality will shift. As they near Rio, they will feel they can't spend one more day on this horrible ship where they've been held hostage, etc., etc., blah, blah, blah. They'll be running off the ship as fast as they can, mark my words.

 

Too bad the crew and other passengers have to suffer in the meantime. If (as reported) 1,500 people have really removed their tips, do you suppose it's really that many people grousing and carrying on? OMG, there would be nowhere to go to escape it! I hope they are all staying in their rooms.

IF IN FACT 1500 PEOPLE WITHDREW THIER TIPS THEN I THINK THAT OPTION WILL BE ELIMINATED BY CUNARD IN THE FUTURE AND RIGHT FULLY SO! 'NEVER P#SS OFF THE PEOPLE HANDLING YOUR FOOD AND BEVERAGE"