American crew on Pride of America!

[jame_g]

NCL's financial challenges with American Ships are far greater than Casino Revenues.

...

Now you can do the math. POA charges nearly double the price of a foreign ship for a week in Hawaii - and generally offers far less in the way of services, activities, and features. Despite that, they are still bleeding money.

Any questions???

 

I agree that the costs are higher for NCLA, and that there are areas (like casino, etc) where they don't have revenue coming in because of Hawaiian law, and decreased revenues because of lack of sea days. (They did seem to have a fair number of people going on excursions, buying photos, and going to the spa though.)

 

But are they really bleeding money? If so why even bother with the Pride of Hawaii?

 

It doesn't make sense to add another ship if it's not going to make money. It would make more sense to put a casino in it and send it on another route instead of adding it to the NCLA fleet.

[bankofdad]

BankofDad,

My observations are also first-hand. I and many close friends were working onboard Norwegian Sky and POA.

 

Thanks Jim,

 

This is all very good info, thankfully shared with us from a crew member. It is very much appreciated.

 

In digesting what you've been able to tell us, two things kind of jump out at me. First, in order to make freestyle work under the current agreement (with American crew and American labor laws), they'd need to spend more money to either add more personnel and/or pay for more "overtime" hours to existing crew at overtime wages. Because if they aren't willing to pay one way or the other, there's no way they could juggle around the existing crew to handle all of the tasks an international worker would that's not governed by US labor laws. The end result is less effective manhours available to management to juggle around, despite having an equal number (to a comparably sized ship with an international staff) of crew members onboard. So effectively, you could say they could be short-staffed if the rules of the game dictate the number of hours your staff will work (and/or if you aren't willing to pay the price for additional manhours as an employer)

 

Second, Your point about the turn-over is well taken. We saw the inexperience in the dining rooms (in particular) as a result. I'm sure you know that it goes without saying that with a lot of inexperience, more supervision is required, meaning more manhours spent on supervision tasks (than would be necessary with a mature working crew), maybe at the expense of the customer. Frankly, I didn't see much supervision going on - just a lot of empty tables, waiting customers and buzy workers.

 

Efficiency at anything comes with experience. Unfortunately for NCLA, most Americans have a lot of other emplyment options, and the young, bright talent that they initially get will likely move on to something else. After all, most Americans or a valued international workers would often be looking at ways to better their own situation.

 

On the flip side, some people at work will always try to take the easy way out. Sounds like you saw more of that than necessary.

 

In any case, thanks again for the insight into your experiences. The one thing I do know is that Hawaii was beautiful, and the POAm ship was, too. I have the same opinion of POAloha as well. The service inconsistencies are still the constant, but the itinerary can't be beat. Could it be that NCLA knows that :rolleyes: , and as long as the ships stay relatively full won't change much?

[Jim Gallup]

jame G,

 

You raise some very good questions.

But at the end of the day, a ship with costs that are 300% or 400% higher than it's competitors, but charging only double what the competition is charging, needs much more than a "fair number" of passengers spending money onboard.

 

Why is NCL doing this if they seemingly cannot make a profit at it?

Carnival and Royal Caribbean are asking the very same question.

Could there be some hidden agendas that involve land-based investments, tax breaks? Probably.

 

Why are they building more American Flag ships if they cannot turn a profit?

Might there be some upcoming legal changes that might work in NCL's favor?

Probably. Hawaiian politics are about as close as you can get to "wild west".

 

Additionally, someone very high up at NCL informed me that it takes about 72 hours to change the flag from USA to Bahamas, fire the American Crew, put Filipinos in their places, and sail away. Will that happen at some point? I suspect that some variation on that concept is somewhere on the horizon.

 

Bankofdad,

At the end of the day, Hawaii is a marvelous destination. A great many bargain hunters who want to visit or re-visit are already chafing at the generally high cost of airfares to Hawaii. They are looking for an easy inexpensive alternative to the high costs of Hawaiian Hotels and the high costs, inefficiencies, and wasted time of travelling between the Hawaiian Islands.

Sure, POA is an expensive and mediocre product as cruising goes, but it is still a bargain when you consider the land-based alternatives. It seems that a large segment of the American Public is willing to suffer with less than perfect service and limited activities in order to take advantage of the savings and ease of staying on these hotels that float between the islands at night.

[bankofdad]

jame G,

 

You raise some very good questions.

But at the end of the day, a ship with costs that are 300% or 400% higher than it's competitors, but charging only double what the competition is charging, needs much more than a "fair number" of passengers spending money onboard.

 

Why is NCL doing this if they seemingly cannot make a profit at it?

Carnival and Royal Caribbean are asking the very same question.

Could there be some hidden agendas that involve land-based investments, tax breaks? Probably.

 

Why are they building more American Flag ships if they cannot turn a profit?

Might there be some upcoming legal changes that might work in NCL's favor?

Probably. Hawaiian politics are about as close as you can get to "wild west".

 

Additionally, someone very high up at NCL informed me that it takes about 72 hours to change the flag from USA to Bahamas, fire the American Crew, put Filipinos in their places, and sail away. Will that happen at some point? I suspect that some variation on that concept is somewhere on the horizon.

 

Bankofdad,

At the end of the day, Hawaii is a marvelous destination. A great many bargain hunters who want to visit or re-visit are already chafing at the generally high cost of airfares to Hawaii. They are looking for an easy inexpensive alternative to the high costs of Hawaiian Hotels and the high costs, inefficiencies, and wasted time of travelling between the Hawaiian Islands.

Sure, POA is an expensive and mediocre product as cruising goes, but it is still a bargain when you consider the land-based alternatives. It seems that a large segment of the American Public is willing to suffer with less than perfect service and limited activities in order to take advantage of the savings and ease of staying on these hotels that float between the islands at night.

 

Lots of good points and "food for thought". Thanks for sharing your insight!

[BoscoBreaux]

I agree that the costs are higher for NCLA, and that there are areas (like casino, etc) where they don't have revenue coming in because of Hawaiian law, and decreased revenues because of lack of sea days. (They did seem to have a fair number of people going on excursions, buying photos, and going to the spa though.)

 

But are they really bleeding money? If so why even bother with the Pride of Hawaii?

 

It doesn't make sense to add another ship if it's not going to make money. It would make more sense to put a casino in it and send it on another route instead of adding it to the NCLA fleet.

 

I'd bet that Pride of Hawaii will replace Pride of America, leaving only two ships in Hawaii. Pink's Champage Lounge would be converted to a casino, and the "America" theme itself will easily translate elsewhere.

 

I predict that 5 years from now, if there is even one of these ships sailing the HNL to HNL route, it would be a miracle. I can't see how they can possibly make money with so many port days (and with the car rental situation a breeze on the islands) and lacking a casino and a clientele that packs lounges (e.g., New Yorkers on the Dawn slam the booze like there is no tomorrow). But, of course, only time will tell.

[honestguy]

First off Jim I would like to know where you are getting your infomation from. The only part I agree with you on is the part about the American crew, enjoying the crew bar too much. Most of your other points have some truth but, not much. I too worked for NCLA and worked aboard the Pride of Aloha.

 

One thing I would like to address is the background checks. There are very rigorous background checks, the reason for this being its a transportation job. You go through the same background check to become a pilot or flight attendent, but for the most part everyone gets through. I trained with a class of 30, of the 30 one girl got sent home for having a drug conviction within the last year. They tell you this when u apply. My buddy had a underage drinking charge on his record had no problem till 2 days before we were to leave piney point md, the coast guard would not issue him an MMD card until he could show he completed his court mandated rehab. He simply returned home for 2 weeks got the paperwork and joined us in hawaii 2 weeks later no big deal. I know of nobody waiting a year other then the ones with a conviction on the record from the same calander year.

 

I'm still convinced the problem with these ships is with NCL's upper management. If you look at all their ships even their international fleet gets lower marks then other cruise lines. Just check the member ratings here on cruise critic. .

 

I do feel you can have a great time though. Hawaii is great and I am dying to get back just not on an NCL ship. lol

[Jim Gallup]

honestguy,

 

My information is also from personal experience. I worked in the NCL Miami and Honolulu Offices, and spent many months trying to clean up the mess.

 

You didn't meet many crew who had to wait one year to get an MMD card, because hundreds of very qualified people we hired refused to sit at home for a year to get the job. They went elsewhere. About 25% of the people we tentatively hired either failed their background check or refused to wait so long and found another job.

I agree completely that upper management snafus had - and continue to have - a major negative effect on the operation.

 

But look at the history of American Cruise Ship Companies over the past 60 years; United States Lines, American President Lines, Mattson, American Hawaii, Aloha Pacific - and a few smaller ones. Every one of those companies was required to hire American Crew - and every one had major labor issues that eventually put them out of business. NCL America looks to be the next one.

[honestguy]

Well I myself tend to believe it can be successful. You have small lines out there that use american crew with sucess and don't forget delta river queen they have amreican crew too. I work with several people that worked on the indepenence. Now they claimed to love that job and worked it for years, but after less then a year with NCL they had their fill! Now I still say u can get that american crew and be successful, but I dont think it will happen with NCL.

[CruisinMatt]

(e.g., New Yorkers on the Dawn slam the booze like there is no tomorrow)

 

As stereotypical as that sounds, I think you're onto something. Many loyalists of the Dawn are quick to defend the high drink prices and often many will state that they are used to paying high prices for drinks at "better" establishments. It then makes sense that Midwesterners would find the high drink prices shocking.

[Jim Gallup]

honestguy.

 

I do agree with you that successfully OPERATING an American Flag Cruise Line is still a possibility - although incredibly challenging. The fact that EVERY (not most, but every) American Flag ocean-going cruise line has failed does not mean that it cannot be done.The few operators who are still in business are not true Ocean-going Cruise Lines, but Coastal Cruisers and River Boats. Many regulations that make it so difficult and expensive to operate ocean-going ships do not apply to "Coastal Cruisers". They operate under a different set of rules that make it somewhat easier to stay in business. Lucky for them, US Laws make it virtually impossible for anyone to compete with them, so they have a chance to succeed. However, sailing on one of thse coastal ships will still cost you an absolute fortune, and you will get next to nothing for your money.

 

However, under current conditions, successfully operating a real ocean-going American Flag Cruise Line AT A PROFIT is an impossibility. The numbers just do not add up. Unless Congress, the crew, or the American cruising public are willing to make huge financial concessions (highly unlikely in all three cases) it just cannot work.

 

Altering the Passenger Services Act / Jones Act to allow lower cost employees from other countries would also allow foreign ships to compete, would bankrupt the only 2 remaining American Flag Cargo Ship Companies, and would bankrupt the 5 major US Air Carriers that currently enjoy a shared monopoly between the US Mainland and Hawaii.

 

Congress has repeatedly ruled that they will not allow foreign workers on US Flagged Passenger Ships.

 

Congress will not allow any tax breaks for a US Flag Cruise Line.

 

Congress will not lower the minimum wage for cruise line employees. It wouldn't help anyway. At current wages, NCL is struggling to find good employees. Lowering wages would only make it worse.

 

The US maritime union (the last remaining one that is not bankrupt) that represents NCL America Crew caved in completely when they negotiated with NCL America. The crew got screwed and the Union got a lot of money. There are no more concessions to get out of them.

 

Sailing on an NCL America ship will already cost you double or triple what you would pay on on International Vessel. NCL is still losing money. Is the American Public willing to pay 300% or 400% (or maybe more) extra to sail on a US Flag ship to keep it running at a profit??

Although reluctant to sound negative, I must say that many Americans vote with their pocketbooks. The future doesn't look good.

[honestguy]

I agree that the union did a crap job with the contract the amount of money people get paid on the ship is a joke compared to land based jobs. I really feel that one of the biggest problems on the ship was with the galley. That staff was the worst I ever worked with, but when u want to pay a first cook 8 bucks an hour. Your going to get a dishwasher in his place.

[CruisinMK]

The itinerary really is the best in the industry. Not having to flush 3 days on Fanning Island is huge, as is not having to start/end in Vancouver or Ensenada. The Pride of America is a beautiful ship, the Pride of Hawaii will be too.

 

If they can address understaffing issues, the American crew is actually a big plus for cruisers -- much easier and more fun to chat with.

 

I'm so glad there is a cruise operating with a pure-hawaii itinerary again. I really hope they succeed. We did Pride of America in October, and are doing the Pride of Hawaii maiden voyage in May.