Symphony OTS: Ben & David review the new menu & dining experience

[boxman52]

5 minutes ago, topnole said:

But what does this have to do with someone feeling something isn’t hot enough for them (even if it is served at proper temperature)?   I’ve experienced seeing others return piping hot food many times simply because what is scalding to me seems only warm to them?

Ha ha. Now I know you are just a troll

The idea that you have seen many times something I've never ever seen and I travel for a living, so I eat in many restaurants, is farcical

Fair play you are funny

[Newcruiser215]

1 minute ago, topnole said:

Oh I’ve seen it, unfortunately.  If you wait just a minute or two with certain food it is no longer that hot.  

If you work in PR, I can tell you’re really good at what you do. Lol. 

[topnole]

Just now, BennyandBo said:

Again, multiple bad reviews = something is wrong. 2 + 2 = 4. 

I’m not sure it is something wrong (ie something to be fixed).  I think it is simply the new normal.  Cost cutting and jacked up prices.  The cruise lines are all debt laden businesses that make no money from customers unless they spend extra while onboard.  They have to cut back what they give you.  Even with the current higher cruise fares,

prices are the same or less than they were 20 or even 30 years ago.  
 

Lower food quality is probably the new normal unless you spend extra   

[BennyandBo]

1 minute ago, Newcruiser215 said:

If you work in PR, I can tell you’re really good at what you do. Lol. 

This is Royal Caribbeans denial team showing itself. LOL. Eat your own cold crap food, then get back to us.

[topnole]

3 minutes ago, Newcruiser215 said:

If you work in PR, I can tell you’re really good at what you do. Lol. 

I’m the last person that would work in PR or post v logs.  

[BennyandBo]

1 minute ago, topnole said:

I’m not sure it is something wrong (ie something to be fixed).  I think it is simply the new normal.  Cost cutting and jacked up prices.  The cruise lines are all debt laden businesses that make no money from customers unless they spend extra while onboard.  They have to cut back what they give you.  Even with the current higher cruise fares,

prices are the same or less than they were 20 or even 30 years ago.  
 

Lower food quality is probably the new normal unless you spend extra   

Just charge more upfront.

[BennyandBo]

2 minutes ago, topnole said:

I’m not sure it is something wrong (ie something to be fixed).  I think it is simply the new normal.  Cost cutting and jacked up prices.  The cruise lines are all debt laden businesses that make no money from customers unless they spend extra while onboard.  They have to cut back what they give you.  Even with the current higher cruise fares,

prices are the same or less than they were 20 or even 30 years ago.  
 

Lower food quality is probably the new normal unless you spend extra   

That's on them though. Don't charge the same as 20 years ago for anything. Nobody else does. 

[topnole]

Just now, BennyandBo said:

Just charge more upfront.

Just like hotels with the ridiculous resort fees.   The business model has changed a lot.  If they charged more, I guess

they would lose a lot of customers.   That’s the only way to explain it.  

[topnole]

Just now, BennyandBo said:

That's on them though. Don't charge the same as 20 years ago for anything. Nobody else does. 

Really?  Not sure you are correct on that?  

[BennyandBo]

1 minute ago, topnole said:

Just like hotels with the ridiculous resort fees.   The business model has changed a lot.  If they charged more, I guess

they would lose a lot of customers.   That’s the only way to explain it.  

They will loose more with a bad reputation. Celebrity, Disney, etc charge more and do just fine. If you back it up with good food and service people will pay.

[BennyandBo]

1 minute ago, topnole said:

Really?  Not sure you are correct on that?  

Who charges the same as they did 20 years ago? 

[topnole]

4 minutes ago, BennyandBo said:

Who charges the same as they did 20 years ago? 

I’ll bet the airlines aren’t far off.  And they are definitely not much different and maybe even lower 30-40 years ago.  Of course many of them also have loads of up charges and the service is severely diminished.   Not too different than the cruise industry.  

[BennyandBo]

5 minutes ago, topnole said:

I’ll bet the airlines aren’t far off.  And they are definitely not much different and maybe even lower 30-40 years ago.  Of course many of them also have loads of up charges and the service is severely diminished.   Not too different than the cruise industry.  

And look how well that works for them. Is there even one the government hasn't bailed out? And the list of them that have gone out of business in the past 20 years is endless. Maybe not wise for Royal to follow that path. Just charge more upfront and give people the food and quality they expect. People are paying $4999.99 for a cabana over the water for the day! Up the price per person $500 to $1000 for every sailing. Won't put them any different then Disney or Celebrity. Air travel is nothing but unhappy hostile people who get arrested in fights weekly. Not the best business model to follow.

[topnole]

13 minutes ago, BennyandBo said:

And look how well that works for them. Is there even one the government hasn't bailed out? And the list of them that have gone out of business in the past 20 years is endless. Maybe not wise for Royal to follow that path. Just charge more upfront and give people the food and quality they expect. People are paying $4999.99 for a cabana over the water for the day! Up the price per person $500 to $1000 for every sailing. Won't put them any different then Disney or Celebrity. Air travel is nothing but unhappy hostile people who get arrested in fights weekly. Not the best business model to follow.

Most of the airlines consolidated through mergers and acquisitions.  They didn’t go out of businesses.  And I’m not defending their strategies or history, just explaining it.  Of course flying sucks. 
it was never a joy to do it 20-30 years ago anyhow IMO.  But yes it is worse now.  With that said, I have never witnessed a hostile passenger or someone being arrested and I’m not exactly an infrequent flier.  So that certainly isn’t all that it is.  But customers want cheap flights and they are willing to endure the uncomfortable conditions.  If they weren’t first class only airlines would exist.   It’s market driven.  
 

The people paying thousands for a cabana aren’t who Royal would worry about losing if they changed the business model.  Again, not

defending the nickel and dime business model, but it is apparently what they prefer and there are other cruise

lines with different business models that give everything for one price.  It would seem Royal feels this space works best

for their target demographic.  Never been a fan of such marketing, but it is the norm in the travel industry.  

[BennyandBo]

4 hours ago, topnole said:

Most of the airlines consolidated through mergers and acquisitions.  They didn’t go out of businesses.  And I’m not defending their strategies or history, just explaining it.  Of course flying sucks. 
it was never a joy to do it 20-30 years ago anyhow IMO.  But yes it is worse now.  With that said, I have never witnessed a hostile passenger or someone being arrested and I’m not exactly an infrequent flier.  So that certainly isn’t all that it is.  But customers want cheap flights and they are willing to endure the uncomfortable conditions.  If they weren’t first class only airlines would exist.   It’s market driven.  
 

The people paying thousands for a cabana aren’t who Royal would worry about losing if they changed the business model.  Again, not

defending the nickel and dime business model, but it is apparently what they prefer and there are other cruise

lines with different business models that give everything for one price.  It would seem Royal feels this space works best

for their target demographic.  Never been a fan of such marketing, but it is the norm in the travel industry.  

If we broke down which airlines went belly up vs consolidated I would win. But I'm not going there with you. You are not the only person who knows a thing or two about this industry.

 

As far as business model. They are becoming Carnival cerca 2005 to 2014. They became a running joke for bad food and service. This will not serve them well. 

[topnole]

12 minutes ago, BennyandBo said:

If we broke down which airlines went belly up vs consolidated I would win. But I'm not going there with you. You are not the only person who knows a thing or two about this industry.

 

As far as business model. They are becoming Carnival cerca 2005 to 2014. They became a running joke for bad food and service. This will not serve them well. 

Don’t confuse bankruptcy protection and going belly up (if you are referring to no longer being a going concern). These are two totally different situations and one of them is a financial strategy.  Of course

many small airlines may have gone out of business, but I’m not recalling any of

the major airlines that didn’t at least get swallowed up.  Delta, United, etc all went through bankruptcy as I recall, but not out of business.  Either way, that is an industry that charges similar prices or

less than decades ago.  You asked and I answered.  Another is the computer manufacturers.  Apple charges less now for a much better computer than they did 15 years ago.  There are other examples

as well. These industries and companies exist despite you saying they don’t.  

Was on carnival many times in the time frame you mentioned (as well as Royal).  Honestly never noticed a difference in the food during that time period.  In fact, in many ways I thought carnival had better food.  I liked the newer Royal ships better, but the food I thought was the same in quality.  
 

I’ve only cruise Royal 3 times since the covid restart, so I can’t come compare it to others cruise lines.  But I will be on carnival next year so that will allow me some comparison.  I’m not expecting much difference, but we’ll see.  

[BennyandBo]

1 hour ago, topnole said:

Don’t confuse bankruptcy protection and going belly up (if you are referring to no longer being a going concern). These are two totally different situations and one of them is a financial strategy.  Of course

many small airlines may have gone out of business, but I’m not recalling any of

the major airlines that didn’t at least get swallowed up.  Delta, United, etc all went through bankruptcy as I recall, but not out of business.  Either way, that is an industry that charges similar prices or

less than decades ago.  You asked and I answered.  Another is the computer manufacturers.  Apple charges less now for a much better computer than they did 15 years ago.  There are other examples

as well. These industries and companies exist despite you saying they don’t.  

Was on carnival many times in the time frame you mentioned (as well as Royal).  Honestly never noticed a difference in the food during that time period.  In fact, in many ways I thought carnival had better food.  I liked the newer Royal ships better, but the food I thought was the same in quality.  
 

I’ve only cruise Royal 3 times since the covid restart, so I can’t come compare it to others cruise lines.  But I will be on carnival next year so that will allow me some comparison.  I’m not expecting much difference, but we’ll see.  

Your right. You know everything.

[Btank]

9 hours ago, teddie said:

Not sure if you've watched other vlogs by Ben and David, as your take could not be farther from the truth.  They are consistently polite, self-effacing, and I believe, extremely objective.  Even in this video, they tried for the bright side whenever possible.

☝️This right here!

[Btank]

9 hours ago, BennyandBo said:

Has anyone here ever seen food with steam coming off of it (my definition of piping hot) be sent back? Ever?

No, but going back to my gazpacho comment... 🤣

 

      --bruce T.

[Btank]

9 hours ago, BennyandBo said:

Has anyone here ever seen food with steam coming off of it (my definition of piping hot) be sent back? Ever? Does this all sound nuts anymore?

 

9 hours ago, topnole said:

Oh I’ve seen it, unfortunately.  If you wait just a minute or two with certain food it is no longer that hot.  

But... but then steam would likely not be coming off of it then, would it?

 

      --bruce T.

[topnole]

1 hour ago, BennyandBo said:

Your right. You know everything.

Every single thing is said in that comment is right (or I stated I didn’t recall).   You love to talk in absolutes or use extreme arguments like the following.  

 

8 hours ago, topnole said:

Air travel is nothing but unhappy hostile people who get arrested in fights weekly.

It’s not my fault you exaggerate and speak in absolutes that don’t exist.  It’s also not my problem they you don’t understand what a business model is and why cruise lines (including royal) conduct business the way they do.  It makes total sense to anyone who understands how varying industries work and the marketing strategies they use.  You say I’m wrong and state no other businesses charge the same prices as 20 years ago.  Then I give you examples and you want to change the argument and say they almost all went belly up.  So what either way.   They charge some similar prices as years ago.  Just like cruise lines. That is the point.  
 

The reality is that airlines are a somewhat relevant example of companies charging low fares (as low as decades ago) and up charging all over to try to make up for the low up front cost (ie nickel and dime the customer).  There have been far less cruise lines as airlines as it isn’t needed like air travel.  But many have gone belly up in this industry too.  And more may follow. I certainly wouldn’t invest in any of the major cruise lines.   Their fundamentals are horrible and the product is seemingly getting less attractive.  Time will tell, but no way I’d invest in any of the big 3.  

[Btank]

9 hours ago, topnole said:

The cruise lines are all debt laden businesses that make no money from customers unless they spend extra while onboard.... Lower food quality is probably the new normal unless you spend extra   

Which kinda discounts the effects of a competitive market.  A cruise line - like almost any other business - that offers consistently higher Quality of Service than the competition will gain more revenue.  More revenue = higher profits, both in total profit $$ as well as the opportunity for lines to increase revenue in other & more profitable areas.  Lower Quality of Service often leads to having a higher profit margin... but on lower revenue.

 

Example: Food is arguably central to the cruise experience.  If Celebrity cut back on food quality, wouldn't you expect some of their pax to jump ship (sorry) to MSC?  And if RCL cuts food quality, wouldn't you expect some of their pax to jump to NCL or <GASP> Carnival?

 

 

     --bruce T.

 

 

[topnole]

14 minutes ago, Btank said:

Which kinda discounts the effects of a competitive market.  A cruise line - like almost any other business - that offers consistently higher Quality of Service than the competition will gain more revenue.  More revenue = higher profits, both in total profit $$ as well as the opportunity for lines to increase revenue in other & more profitable areas.  Lower Quality of Service often leads to having a higher profit margin... but on lower revenue.

 

Example: Food is arguably central to the cruise experience.  If Celebrity cut back on food quality, wouldn't you expect some of their pax to jump ship (sorry) to MSC?  And if RCL cuts food quality, wouldn't you expect some of their pax to jump to NCL or <GASP> Carnival?

 

 

     --bruce T.

 

 

More revenue does not necessarily mean more profit. It all depends on cost. You could easily increase revenue with and even higher increase in cost and profit goes down.  These $2+B ships drive the cost per passenger way up.  Ships used to fractionally less expensive to own.  If you are paying 600-700 a week for a cruise, how much do you think they lose if you spend nothing extra?   
 

I’d say it is moving more towards tiers (1st class vs 2nd class in the old ocean liners).  People who expect higher quality food experiences are probably going to have to pay for it (suites or specialty restaurants).  Those who don’t care and are fine with buffet food will likely be happy not to pay extra for something they don’t want.   Not saying this is the right or wrong way for a company to do it, but it is just what I see going on.  
 

People can cruise at a ridiculously cheap rate if the spend nothing extra.  But they will get run of the mill food.  Folks can also have very nice dining experiences if they choose, but they will pay extra.  Folks who want internet pay extra.  Folks who want alcoholic drinks pay extra, etc.   I’m sure they will only create more extra cost things to make money.  Not what I like seeing, but it is what I see coming to some extent for the main cruise lines.  The want and need a broad spectrum of customers.  Too many ships and costs to focus on just one type.  

Edited May 4, 2023 by topnole

[topnole]

17 minutes ago, Btank said:

Which kinda discounts the effects of a competitive market.  A cruise line - like almost any other business - that offers consistently higher Quality of Service than the competition will gain more revenue.  More revenue = higher profits, both in total profit $$ as well as the opportunity for lines to increase revenue in other & more profitable areas.  Lower Quality of Service often leads to having a higher profit margin... but on lower revenue.

 

Example: Food is arguably central to the cruise experience.  If Celebrity cut back on food quality, wouldn't you expect some of their pax to jump ship (sorry) to MSC?  And if RCL cuts food quality, wouldn't you expect some of their pax to jump to NCL or <GASP> Carnival?

 

 

     --bruce T.

 

 

Royal and Celebrity are the same corporation.  If one assumes Celebrity understands the competitive market, you have to realize Royal does too.  Never been a fan of Royals marketing the past 10+ years, but what isn’t up for debate is whether they are pursuing a strategy they understand and are seeking to exploit.  It seemingly works for Royal.  I think it works because their newer ships are so amazing (ie voyager then freedom, then, oasis, etc.).  Always cutting edge for the last 20 years now.  Even with lesser food quality people seemingly love the product.  Plus,

they do have the best loyalty program by far.  They understand folks love it and free drinks always makes a drinker happy.  Whatever the reasons, they aren’t behaving irrationally as far as I can tell.  Their bookings remain very strong.  The market seems to accept their price vs quality.   

[BennyandBo]

1 hour ago, topnole said:

Every single thing is said in that comment is right (or I stated I didn’t recall).   You love to talk in absolutes or use extreme arguments like the following.  

 

It’s not my fault you exaggerate and speak in absolutes that don’t exist.  It’s also not my problem they you don’t understand what a business model is and why cruise lines (including royal) conduct business the way they do.  It makes total sense to anyone who understands how varying industries work and the marketing strategies they use.  You say I’m wrong and state no other businesses charge the same prices as 20 years ago.  Then I give you examples and you want to change the argument and say they almost all went belly up.  So what either way.   They charge some similar prices as years ago.  Just like cruise lines. That is the point.  
 

The reality is that airlines are a somewhat relevant example of companies charging low fares (as low as decades ago) and up charging all over to try to make up for the low up front cost (ie nickel and dime the customer).  There have been far less cruise lines as airlines as it isn’t needed like air travel.  But many have gone belly up in this industry too.  And more may follow. I certainly wouldn’t invest in any of the major cruise lines.   Their fundamentals are horrible and the product is seemingly getting less attractive.  Time will tell, but no way I’d invest in any of the big 3.  

Your confusing what I don't think is the right business model, with understanding what one is. Please stop being rude and condescending.