No suit ok? Part 2- Results

[goodtimes247]

Hi fellow cruisers, so my previous post was if i don't wear a jacket along with my suit would it be ok with just shirt and tie on a formal night? Well because of this I opened up a can of worms with this board and I guess it was quite a controversial subject. So after my sailing with Mariner of the Seas with RCI, I did some research onboard and observed more closely at what the guys wore, girls were mainly dresses. I'd say about 60-65% of guys wore full on suits or tuxes (a lot more suits than tuxes) and the rest were dress pants with shirt with or no tie. looked like fewer than 5% wore shorts and tees during formal night. I asked the staff what they thought about it, and they mentioned that it's normal to see shorts and slippers on formal nights nowadays, afterall, it's their vacation. I'm guessing the rules of formal nights aren't too enforced. I did wear my suit but didn't even wear it for the most part. Kind of a waste of luggage space. Oh well...that's it. Hope this helps. :rolleyes:

[PennyAgain]

The cruise lines push formal attire as it is decor they don't have to pay for! All the ships are getting more casual. We have friends who are out on a Crystal ship right now. The husband didn't take a tux. The first night of their cruise all sorts of people were wearing jeans in the dining room. Our friends did as well.

 

People can huff and puff about formal attire, but it comes down to your cruise and what you want to do with it. My later mother-in-law never dressed formally on cruises (she took more than 30) and never was kicked out of the dining room.

[kitty9]

Penny, as a very frequent Crystal cruiser, I'd say that wearing jeans is rare. As for tuxes, nearly 90% of the men wear them with the rest in suits. I've seen passengers refused entry into the dining room on Crystal when not properly dressed. And for the jeans on the first night, that's probably because they didn't have their luggage, which is something that happens, even on Crystal. But you rarely see people in jeans on other nights. Another thing with Crystal is that if you go into any of the public venues at night, you're expected to be in the code of the evening. Like I said, that's my experience after 17 Crystal cruises in less than 8 years (and 50 cruises total).

 

As far as shorts on formal nights, I think that's just downright in poor taste. But again, that's my opinion, and one that's probably shared by the majority.

[Fredr]

Hello,

 

You can wear what you want, because your money is as good as mine or another person's. However....

 

By going casual...jeans and t shirts in the dining room and so on, the message to the cruise industry is that people do not care about the traditions of a voyage by sea. And this will result in big time reductions...close the dining room and have everyone use the buffet for every meal and other similiar reductions. The cruise lines will cheapen the product to a point where it will no longer be "fun" to go on a cruise.

 

Air travel used to be fun, with good food and service, and sadly today there is nothing fun about air travel.

 

Do what you want because it is your money but please do not be surprised that in a very short time, cruising becomes like air travel...no fun.

 

Fred

[bububr]

The more that passengers blatantly violate the dress codes and rules of conduct, the more the lines see a way to make cutbacks.

 

Along with the influx of families with children....the ammenities are dissapearing, food quality and service are heading south on many lines, etc..

 

So the elegant days of cruising are dissapearing to the megaships with fast food restaurants ( I'm sure McDonalds will be next on a RCL mega ship), rock climbing walls, ice rinks and bowling alleys.

 

Personally I like the smaller more cozy ships. I also like the fact that Celebrity's new line AZAMARA has eliminated the kids club, taken on longer itineraries, and is a bit pricier. Althought it is country club casual, I suspect that will soon deteriorate down to coveralls and wife beaters.

 

Dave:eek:

[bUU]

By going casual...jeans and t shirts in the dining room and so on, the message to the cruise industry is that people do not care about the traditions of a voyage by sea.

While I don't like the idea of t-shirts in the dining room, I do think that a good number of potential cruise passenger really don't care about the traditions of a voyage by sea, and that that is okay. As a commercial vacation offering, cruises should reflect what potential passengers actually value.

 

Having said that, please note that since there is a dress code put out by the cruise lines (our hosts), it is incumbent on us, as their guests, to comply with that dress code. That has nothing to do with "what might happen if you don't" but is simply a matter of personal accountability.

 

And this will result in big time reductions...close the dining room and have everyone use the buffet for every meal and other similiar reductions. The cruise lines will cheapen the product to a point where it will no longer be "fun" to go on a cruise.

I don't think that there is any actual implication whereby t-shirts lead to closing the dining room. What would result in closing the dining room would be if the dining room was regularly empty and the buffet eatery regularly full. There is typically a logic, like that, to the changes made to a product.

 

Air travel used to be fun, with good food and service

And air travel also used to be expensive -- utterly unaffordable for folks like my family. If I had to choose between airlines with superior service, which I could read about in newspapers or see on television, versus airlines with marginally-acceptable service, which I could actually use to get me to where I want to go quickly and affordably, I'd have to choose the latter. Don't get me wrong: I'm more affluent than my family was when I was growing up. I could probably afford more expensive air travel. However, my ability to do so doesn't nullify the fact that so many other families are just barely able to do so now. Their needs effectively trump my willingness to pay more for better service, because there are far more of them than there are of me (us?).

[bUU]

The more that passengers blatantly violate the dress codes and rules of conduct, the more the lines see a way to make cutbacks.

Again, I see no reason to believe any such implication exists. The cutbacks you're alluding to each have their own unique drivers, which are almost surely something other than what you're suggesting here.

 

Along with the influx of families with children....

I'm curious about your including this line in your message. I think you're correct in what I think you're trying to assert, but I found it strange that you left that line in your message hanging, without completing the thought or relating it clearly to what you said later. >shrug<

 

the ammenities are dissapearing, food quality and service are heading south on many lines, etc..

And again: Amenities disappear because passengers, as a group, are not as willing to pay a premium for cruise lines that offer them. Food quality decreases because passengers, as a group, are not as willing to pay a premium for cruise lines that offer superior quality food. And so on...

 

So the elegant days of cruising are dissapearing to the megaships with fast food restaurants ( I'm sure McDonalds will be next on a RCL mega ship), rock climbing walls, ice rinks and bowling alleys.

Even this isn't clear to me. There are far more passenger berths on the sea than there ever has been in the past, if I'm not mistaken. And I bet if we add up the berths on the top-shelf lines, like Cunard, Crystal, Seabourn, Regent Seven Seas, and Silversea, we may find that there are just as much "elegant cruising" out there as there ever has been, but in addition there is more cruising, of lesser grade. The fact that more affordable cruising exists doesn't degrade the six star experience which you can still get if you want it (and, as always, can afford it).

[JerseyGem]

My last GOS cruise (May 07) had similar percentages for men's attire. Based on this (and past RCL cruises), I'm not "forcing" DH to bring a suit, nor am I bringing a formal gown anymore. Packing should be easier! We still try to look nice (long skirt, matching top for me; dress pants, shirt and tie for DH- maybe sports coat) as if we were going to a fancy restaurant here at home. But when the table next to you has couples in shorts, Tee shirts and sneakers- well, it does make DH loosen his tie as soon as the first course is served!

 

For those who want to get really dressed up- please feel free to do so (we especially love watching the family groups wonderfully dressed to get their family portraits taken onboard - as we did years ago). For those who wear shorts- yes, it's your cruise, but don't be surprised if the rest of us stare at you.

[NOT my real name]

While I don't like the idea of t-shirts in the dining room, I do think that a good number of potential cruise passenger really don't care about the traditions of a voyage by sea

 

The traditions of a voyage by sea are long gone anyway. Look at the number of kids on cruises. In summer cruise ships are like a Chuck E Cheese on the high seas. Nothing romantic about that.

[anifaniks]

Our first cruise, $2500 bought us a balcony cabin for a 7-day cruise. My DH and I packed his tux and my formal clothes, along w/ some nice jewelry and our dancing shoes and resort wear. We thought we were going to be dining in a palatial setting w/ a dance floor and a big band.

 

On formal nite, we gussied up, expecting a quiet, gracious evening accompanied by champagne and dancing to a big band and ending w/ brandy and a cigar and a string quartet. We got off the elevators only to be confronted w/ a mass of people so thick, we could hardly negotiate a path to our dining room. What was going on? So much noise - so many people! Photographers and lines of people choked passageways, trying to get their pix snapped.

 

We were jostled and pushed as we tried to get to the dining room. Someone knocked into me and I realized I had been jostled so soundly, one of my diamond earrings had dropped. I panicked. Down on the floor, frantically scrambling to find my earring! People stopped in their tracks to help. Luckily, we located it. Last time I take "good" jewelry on a cruise!

 

We were crestfallen when we got to the dining room and realized - no big band, no dance floor - just a lot of tables, and not much room between them. DH looked at me and we burst out laughing. No words were spoken - we realized we had totally misunderstood what a $2500 cruise was going to buy us! We had an above average meal and enjoyed the companionship of our tablemates.

 

We are very flexible people. We went back to our cabin, regrouped and figured - okay - this is NOT Cunard. There would be no fox-trotting on this cruise. If we wanted to tango that badly, we were going to have to spend the big bucks to do it at sea!!!

 

We adjusted and had a great time. We have continued to cruise - but not on the luxury lines. We know it will be more Vegas than Venice and that is okay with us. Piano bar instead of big band; disco instead of tango. That works.

 

We no longer haul the tux. We do country club casual and resort wear and costume jewelry. We know the type of cruise exists that we had earlier envisioned, but it is not going to be at the price point we have set for ourselves for a 7-day cruise in a balcony cabin.

 

The cruiseline is obviously making a nice "cut" off photographers . . . and people line up for their pix b/c they want to memorialize a moment when they are dressed up and looking great! I sincerely doubt a cruiseline will discontinue formal nite when there are people willing to subsidize the photographers . . . and thereby, the cruiseline . . .

 

Maybe someday . . . we will see just what some serious $$$ will buy us on one of the luxury lines . . . but how wonderful we can have a great time on a less expensive cruise . . . even if we have to push our way past the throngs of people/photographers to the dining room on formal nites . . .

[madelinerose]

anifaniks, I absolutely love your post!!! ;)

[anifaniks]

Well, I am glad you enjoyed it . . . i just wish I had a pic of myself in my very formal gown, down on the floor, surrounded by dozens of feet, my hair getting re-arranged by some strange man's pants legs . . . frantically searching for my diamond earring - a gift from my DH for the anniversary we were celebrating that very night!!!

 

So many photos being taken . . . and none of that moment. DH calls these moments my "Lucy moments" - yes, I am a redhead and NO - not the first time I have found myself in an incongruous social situation.

 

Ever see Steel Magnolias? Remember the scene at the county fair when Annelle loses her contact - unexpectedly drops to the ground and is yelling hysterically for everyone to stop - cause she has to find her contact?

 

I did such a fast drop to my knees, nearly ripped my skirt in the fray, screaming "OMG - my earring! My earring!!!!!" and I can assure you, the SUBSTANTIAL corseted strapless bra I had managed to wriggle myself into - swiveled at a dangerous angle - causing all sorts of problems that I won't even attempt to describe here!!!

 

My plaintive wails of "don't move - STOP STOP!!" did manage to bring a halt to all movement w/in 4 feet of me. Quite a feat when you consider how packed the place was.

 

It is hard to feel elegant at such a moment. Nothing to do but brush myself off, and S M I L E!!!! :D

 

Ani

[bUU]

... we realized we had totally misunderstood what a $2500 cruise was going to buy us!

This really hits the nail on the head. Folks are really well-advised to set their expectations based on reports of actual experiences, rather than getting lost in all the discussions about what "should" be.

[anifaniks]

Your insights have been so on-target on this thread!

 

Ani

[bUU]

Thanks! :)

[RetireeWannabee]

Aren't we really just talking about market fragmentation??

 

Cruising is not new. It is a mature product that has been around a long time and has had to continue to evolve to remain relevant.

 

The marketing execs are doing a bit more work in defining their target audience and then pulling them in: "Get out there!", "Freestyle!", "Funships!", etc. Each line has its own personality - some are better for families, some are more elegant, some more casual, small intimate ships, giant vessels of endless entertainment venues... Itineraries also suit different purposes - beaches, glaciers, island hopping, mostly sea days, ...

 

The choices that a cruiser has today are phenomenal and cruising has become affordable to way more people than it ever used to be able to attract (growing up I thought it was only for The Wealthy; I am far form that but planning my third cruise). Add supply and demand to that and you can find super low rates and get even more people sampling the product.

 

But here's the problem: human behavior. One cannot expect every passenger to take seriously the dress code, the alcohol policy, other matters of conduct. One cannot expect every other passenger to be on that ship for the same reasons. Some go for the luxury, some for the ports, some because it was cheap, some because a family member decided to have a reunion, etc etc.

 

You can't solve this problem - humans will do what humans will do. What you can do is try to find the cruise that gives you the best chance of meeting your personal goals. Then, once aboard, you can choose how to react to passengers whose goals appear to be vastly different from your own. Hopefully, you can ignore what you don't approve of and have a great time.

 

It's not worth it to get aggravated over disrepect, lack of consideration, manners, pride, etc. Life's too short.

[Fredr]

Hello,

 

Bicker makes some very interesting as well as (to me) correct observations. And what we have here (Bicker) is a highly informed very well read person who can quote the wonderful Carl Sagan. Respectfuly though I would briefly like to comment further.

 

I noted that Bicker is relatively new to the world of cruises (all of her cruises have been taken within the last six years) and that she has been on three cruises in the middle market. not counting a cruise of the Nile. It is correct to say that Bicker did not experience a cruise on a cruise line that catered to the middle market (Princess, Celebrity, RCCL and HAL) during the 70s, 80s, and 90s. And did she "price" cruises every other week like those of us who were fortunate enough to become interested in cruising during the 1970s. She did not go on a Celebrity cruise (for example) shortly after John Chandris started this cruise line with an emphasis on great food and a wonderful European ambiance at a very fair price. Cruise staff had the time to really do their jobs well as part of their work.

 

My point...I am pleased that Bicker enjoys cruising, has found cruises within her family's budget, and has the time and funds to fly. There are those of us, however, who want everyone to have a great time on a cruise and especially children...at the same time we want to experience the romance of a cruise, that is, some of the magic that a cruise brings to our lives. I have no interet in the ultra luxury market even though, frankly I can afford it.

 

Fred

[bUU]

But here's the problem: human behavior. One cannot expect every passenger to take seriously the dress code, the alcohol policy, other matters of conduct. One cannot expect every other passenger to be on that ship for the same reasons.

Good points, but there is a very big difference between these two sentences. The latter sentence is absolutely true. Anyone who second-guesses the motivation of another passenger is being self-centered, as you suggest. However, it is reasonable to "expect" all passengers to comply with the rules they implicitly agree to comply with when the book passage. Expectations for compliance are justified, while expectations for motivation and other personal decisions are not.

[bUU]

I noted that Bicker is relatively new to the world of cruises

Though it should be noted this has nothing at all to do with what I've said.

 

I have no interet in the ultra luxury market even though, frankly I can afford it.

I also don't see how that relates. Perhaps you've made your point so subtle that it has just passed me by? :confused:

[anifaniks]

Fred, this is most respectfully addressed to you in hopes that I can better understand the points you were making in your post.

 

I have re-read it twice, w/ much interest, as you have a long history of cruising and have seen the changes in the industry in a way I certainly haven't. I am new to cruising, except for one Bahamas cruise back in the 80s. My other cruises have been in the last 6 years.

 

Are you saying that you used to be able to book a middle range cruise (on Princess, X, RCL, HAL) that balanced out excellent service/food as well as a really nice atmosphere, gracious attention to detail . . . and that the middle range cruises today are not that much different as far as price point changes . . . but that the service and atmosphere are not the same quality?

 

I would like to hear more about this as I have wondered what has transpired w/ quality issues (not just w/ food, service, but also - entertainment, amenities) on cruiselines.

 

Since this started out as a thread about formal nites, are you referring to how things used to be more gracious and people dressed better and received better and more attentive service in the past as compared to now?

 

Just trying to get a clear picture about the changes you have seen in the industry and how price and service are part of those changes.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I read it as - you used to be able to get an upscale cruise for the same price point (as today's costs), but that is not true for cruises you book on the same lines now? And that you feel you shouldn't have to go to the luxury lines to get the same kind of service (and cruising experience) that you used to get on the middle lines?

 

Ani

[SheilaNC]

Folks,

This interesting discussion is way off topic. Out of respect for the OP, you might want to start a new thread 'asking a cruise question'.

[Fredr]

Hello,

 

Ani and Bicker (my new friends who write superbly), I do not want to be disagreeable or cranky or live in the past. My point , simply stated, that if such things as formal nights and fine dining are done away or cheapened, then a cruise will no longer be a very special kind of a travel experience. The charm and romance will be gone, that wonderful sense that we are at sea, with the sun, moon and the stars. A cruise is also a time to meet interesting people from all over the world and to learn from them. A cruise will not be attractive to people interested in the world if the food, service and overall experience is second rate. There will always be ultra luxury cruises but these cruises are too fancy for me (a tuxedo or a jacket/tie is fine for two or three nights but not every night of a cruise).

 

There is no question that cruises at this time are still a wonderful vacation experience. However, based on our three cruises over the last 10 months, I saw badly overworked cruise staff handling too many tables in the dining room and too many cabins handled by the cabin stewards. Dining rooms are closed for lunch while in port (this is a minor issue but it is nice to have a nice lunch on the ship after a moring of sightseeing and then going out in the afternoon).

 

Hope that you have many more fun filled cruises.

 

Fred

[RetireeWannabee]

Good points, but there is a very big difference between these two sentences. The latter sentence is absolutely true. Anyone who second-guesses the motivation of another passenger is being self-centered, as you suggest. However, it is reasonable to "expect" all passengers to comply with the rules they implicitly agree to comply with when the book passage. Expectations for compliance are justified, while expectations for motivation and other personal decisions are not.

 

I stand corrected: it is reasonable to expect people to follow rules.

 

Unfortunately, I've seen enuf humans to not expect total compliance, ever. I was only speaking for myself. Apologies.

[bUU]

Are you saying that you used to be able to book a middle range cruise (on Princess, X, RCL, HAL) ...

I'm a bit confused, perhaps, but... It's my understanding that all these cruise lines were not always comparable to each other. Furthermore, going back further, I was under the impression that there were no cruise lines comparable to Royal Caribbean and Holland America today -- I believe all cruise lines were aimed at the luxury market; I know surely that we couldn't afford to cruise at all.

 

And that you feel you shouldn't have to go to the luxury lines to get the same kind of service (and cruising experience) that you used to get on the middle lines?

I'd be especially interested in seeing the answer to this question. I cannot believe anyone reasonably expects the quality of service of the costly luxury lines from less costly mainstream cruise lines.

[bUU]

Has anyone created another thread within which we can carry on this discussion? :confused: