BlackJack on the High Seas

[CGuy]

I hate those blacked out continual shuffle shoes they use on many cruise ships. I've played a lot of Blackjack over the years. I'm not a professional gambler. Far from it, but I do love playing Blackjack.

Im not sure.. can't prove it, but with those shoes, how would one know if they took out 20%, 30% or even 50% of the face cards! I've seen more dealers with 14 thru 16 take an additional 3, 4, 5 cards to get 21 on cruise ships than I ever have in Atlantis, Vegas or Atlantic City.

This is only my opinion... but this is why I have always turned them down when asked to get rated on the ship. I'm not afraid to lose... I just want to feel like I've got a sporting chance!

The best is good old fashioned single deck or even double deck. The odds are still in the houses favor but at least you have some control. I guess the cruise ships know their clients and are looking for the couple who doesn't know or care how the game is played.

Does anyone else feel this way about playing Blackjack with this type of shoe? Does anyone know what rules they (the ships) must abide by while gambling on international waters?

__________________

[primo1]

I would never play a CSM machine.

They have to much to loose if they took out so many high cards out of deal.

They follow Vegas and Atlantic city rules. And abide by the rules set by the NGC, Nevada Gaming Comm.

The rules on cruise ships for blackjack are not player friendly.

Also, on single and double deck games blackjack is paid at 6:5. Do not play that.

Also, with single and double they shuffle up half way thru the deck.

Zero advantage to the player on that game.

I don't play much anylonger on the cruise ships because of these reasons.

It is pretty much amateur hour! And folks like me just hanging out longing

to be in Vegas, lol.

[cruiser_new]

Played at a CSM table for a week and lost my you-know-what. Not sure I agree with your theory about removing tens because I have never seen the dealers have so many twenties on two cards in my life. I am not kidding when I tell you that when I had twenty, I think I pushed more than I won.

 

I have a separate thread about my suspicions that they cheat, but I don't understand how.

[Deckhawk]

I think the button on the shuffler is the "screw you" button...they press it once you win too much money.

 

I also refuse to play on the automated poker table. I think the computer spreads out the winnings to keep the game going and the house making $$.

[jetwet1]

The first line I will agree with, the second, mmmm, not so much.

[Harry and Lucille]

A CSM does make a difference. If the house is running with a 1.5 percent average income, continuous dealing without the hands on by the dealer, allows an extra 35 hands to be played on a full table, or approx. 105 hands per table per hour. They don't need to be rigged. Harry :cool:

[DaveFr]

I also dislike playing at tables with continuous shuffling machines because I never seem to win at those tables. I always thought that continuous shuffling increased the house edge. However, I found an interesting article on the Wizard of Odds website (http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/appendix10.html) that contends the continuous shuffling machines actually decrease the house edge. That's the good news. The bad news is that a casino can play about 20% more hands per hour which increases the expected hourly losses for a basic strategy player. :D Harry's analysis, above, appears to be right on the mark.

 

Dave

[CGuy]

I read the link you attached. Very interesting article. Good post. If the CSM reduces the houses edge (so slightly) and the only increased advantage to the house is the 20% more shuffles it provides per hour, the key maybe to slow the game.

[jetwet1]

I had my old VP try to tell me that a CSM was bad for the house because it reduced the %, when pressed about this he could supply any info to back it up and well, I was fired (don't embarrass the boss in a meeting) the house odds will not change with the number of cards being dealt (this is the same guy who was convinced we had a counter on a game with a CSM) and the number of hand per hour goes up, meaning all you can do as a player is use basic rules and hope....Not a good idea.

[Silverscreencruiser]

If I had to guess, I'd guess that Carnival felt (perhaps in response to negative comment cards) that the time spent shuffling the cards by hand would be a turnoff for many of the casual gamblers on the cruise. People who gamble on cruise ships are not the same people who go to Vegas or Atlantic City to gamble; they are on the cruise to have fun and may wander into the casino to try it out.

 

For someone like that, sitting at a table and watching the dealer shuffle a bunch of cards while nothing is happening might just be an excuse for them to walk away from the table and never come back.

[CGuy]

I find it hard to believe that the patrons of any cruise ship would rather play some soulless mechanical version of (CSM) Blackjack then enjoy the social intercourse that takes place on a true Blackjack table. The shuffle (2 or 3 minutes max) gives time for the players to connect with one another.... Something the house may prefer not to happen. As far as not the same gamblers on a cruise ship vs. Atlantic City or Vegas... Vegas was not built on the scholar players either.

 

The beginner Blackjack player may much more enjoy the game when played the right way. This in the end may make the whole cruise experience far more pleasant and exciting for everyone.

[Casino Player]

I hate those blacked out continual shuffle shoes they use on many cruise ships. I've played a lot of Blackjack over the years. I'm not a professional gambler. Far from it, but I do love playing Blackjack.

Im not sure.. can't prove it, but with those shoes, how would one know if they took out 20%, 30% or even 50% of the face cards! I've seen more dealers with 14 thru 16 take an additional 3, 4, 5 cards to get 21 on cruise ships than I ever have in Atlantis, Vegas or Atlantic City.

This is only my opinion... but this is why I have always turned them down when asked to get rated on the ship. I'm not afraid to lose... I just want to feel like I've got a sporting chance!

The best is good old fashioned single deck or even double deck. The odds are still in the houses favor but at least you have some control. I guess the cruise ships know their clients and are looking for the couple who doesn't know or care how the game is played.

Does anyone else feel this way about playing Blackjack with this type of shoe? Does anyone know what rules they (the ships) must abide by while gambling on international waters?

__________________

 

HHHHHEEEEELLLLLLLLLLOOOOO CGuy: First, I would not recommend playing Black Jack on a cruise ship or in any other casino. The house has too much of an edge. You should learn how to play craps. If you like interacting with other players this is a good game for you. Besides, the house edge is less than in Black Jack. Never play a game in which the house has a big edge. You will be a big loser.

[VistaRio]

HHHHHEEEEELLLLLLLLLLOOOOO CGuy: First, I would not recommend playing Black Jack on a cruise ship or in any other casino. The house has too much of an edge. You should learn how to play craps. If you like interacting with other players this is a good game for you. Besides, the house edge is less than in Black Jack. Never play a game in which the house has a big edge. You will be a big loser.

 

What about a game in which the player has the edge?

 

;)

[Lisa&Neb]

HHHHHEEEEELLLLLLLLLLOOOOO CGuy: First, I would not recommend playing Black Jack on a cruise ship or in any other casino. The house has too much of an edge. You should learn how to play craps. If you like interacting with other players this is a good game for you. Besides, the house edge is less than in Black Jack. Never play a game in which the house has a big edge. You will be a big loser.

 

Actually BJ has one of the lowest house edges when played according to the "chart" (basic statagey). IF you can count cards (are not playing on a CSM) then the player actually can have a small advantage. As for craps.. at 1 or 2 times odds the housle has about the same edge as BJ. for more info go to www.wizardofodds.com and look at each of the games. the 4 best games toplay for low house edge are BJ, craps and Baccarat and finally Pai Gow.

 

 

You can also add in Table poker, where there is no house edge, just your sitting fee or rake... just look for a lower rake. Finally Video poker cnda have a low house edge if you find he right rules/pay table.

 

 

On the other side the worst bets are Keno, Big wheel, Car. stud side bet (unless the jackpot is over about 160,000), Baccarat tie, BJ insurance, LEt it ride side bet, Craps prop bets(middle bets), Roulette with 00 (numbers), finally Cansino War tie bet.

[Casino Player]

What about a game in which the player has the edge?

 

;)

 

 

HHHHHEEEEELLLLLLLLLLOOOOO VistaV: No casino will have a game that gives the player an edge. If they did that they wouldn't be in business.

[Casino Player]

Actually BJ has one of the lowest house edges when played according to the "chart" (basic statagey). IF you can count cards (are not playing on a CSM) then the player actually can have a small advantage. As for craps.. at 1 or 2 times odds the housle has about the same edge as BJ. for more info go to www.wizardofodds.com and look at each of the games. the 4 best games toplay for low house edge are BJ, craps and Baccarat and finally Pai Gow.

 

 

You can also add in Table poker, where there is no house edge, just your sitting fee or rake... just look for a lower rake. Finally Video poker cnda have a low house edge if you find he right rules/pay table.

 

 

On the other side the worst bets are Keno, Big wheel, Car. stud side bet (unless the jackpot is over about 160,000), Baccarat tie, BJ insurance, LEt it ride side bet, Craps prop bets(middle bets), Roulette with 00 (numbers), finally Cansino War tie bet.

 

HHHHHEEEEELLLLLLLLLLOOOOO Lisa&Neb: I disagree with you about the odds in Black Jack. The House has an 11% edge when six decks are used. Now most casinos use eight decks dealt out of a shoe. House edge goes up. The House also now uses a continous shuffle machine or a CSM. House edge now moves up even more. Regardless of your knowledge of basic strategy beating the house is now a long shot. Forget about counting cards. The CSM takes card counting out.

Compare that to Craps. The House has a 1.45% edge on the pass line bet. Same for the Come bet. If you play the Don't Pass the House Edge is now 1.43%. I don't recommend taking odds on the Don't Pass bet. Once you take full odds, whatever the casino will allow, the House edge now slips to .80%. That is under a 1% edge. There is no fairer game in the casino than that.

Edited August 17, 2009 by Casino Player

[Lisa&Neb]

HHHHHEEEEELLLLLLLLLLOOOOO Lisa&Neb: I disagree with you about the odds in Black Jack. The House has an 11% edge when six decks are used. Now most casinos use eight decks dealt out of a shoe. House edge goes up. The House also now uses a continous shuffle machine or a CSM. House edge now moves up even more. Regardless of your knowledge of basic strategy beating the house is now a long shot. Forget about counting cards. The CSM takes card counting out.

 

Compare that to Craps. The House has a 1.45% edge on the pass line bet. Same for the Come bet. If you play the Don't Pass the House Edge is now 1.43%. I don't recommend taking odds on the Don't Pass bet. Once you take full odds, whatever the casino will allow, the House edge now slips to .80%. That is under a 1% edge. There is no fairer game in the casino than that.

 

 

Thanks for your opinion... but I think your #'s BJ are WRONG!!!

 

"The house edge can be diminished to only around 1% if the player follows certain rules. The set of rules known as basic strategy make blackjack one of the fairest games of any kind, almost as fair as coin tossing."

http://saliu.com/blackjack.html

 

 

 

8 deck with basic rules .7% house edge when playing basic stragey

 

http://www.insidervlv.com/casinoodds.html

 

this has odds of all the games!!!

[VistaRio]

HHHHHEEEEELLLLLLLLLLOOOOO Lisa&Neb: I disagree with you about the odds in Black Jack. The House has an 11% edge when six decks are used. Now most casinos use eight decks dealt out of a shoe. House edge goes up. The House also now uses a continous shuffle machine or a CSM. House edge now moves up even more. Regardless of your knowledge of basic strategy beating the house is now a long shot. Forget about counting cards. The CSM takes card counting out.

 

Compare that to Craps. The House has a 1.45% edge on the pass line bet. Same for the Come bet. If you play the Don't Pass the House Edge is now 1.43%. I don't recommend taking odds on the Don't Pass bet. Once you take full odds, whatever the casino will allow, the House edge now slips to .80%. That is under a 1% edge. There is no fairer game in the casino than that.

 

Your ignorance is dangerous to others. This is the last post I'll make to the topic.

 

Nobody here will argue that a CSM is good for the player. Nobody here will argue that one can count a CSM. But your valid information about the game of 21 stops right there. Your figures are WAY off. They are in fact absurd, and you should not continue to quote them, please.

 

I love shooting dice, and your figures for that game are very close, but you shouldn't pretend you have better odds than someone playing perfect basic strategy at, for example, a nice S17, DAS blackjack game. even running a 6 deck shoe, that game plays about -.4% EV. (Not sure where your 11% came from!)

 

And oy vey, let's not even talk about variance.......

 

Good luck at the tables, whatever game they may be! (Anyone for a game of Chuck A Luck?) :p

Edited August 17, 2009 by VistaV

[Harry and Lucille]

Check out www.wizardofodds.com for real stats. Harry :cool:

[CGuy]

WOW! Maybe I should 86 the whole cruise thing and start going back to Vegas. The USA can better use my money at this time anyway.

[Casino Player]

Your ignorance is dangerous to others. This is the last post I'll make to the topic.

 

Nobody here will argue that a CSM is good for the player. Nobody here will argue that one can count a CSM. But your valid information about the game of 21 stops right there. Your figures are WAY off. They are in fact absurd, and you should not continue to quote them, please.

 

I love shooting dice, and your figures for that game are very close, but you shouldn't pretend you have better odds than someone playing perfect basic strategy at, for example, a nice S17, DAS blackjack game. even running a 6 deck shoe, that game plays about -.4% EV. (Not sure where your 11% came from!)

 

And oy vey, let's not even talk about variance.......

 

Good luck at the tables, whatever game they may be! (Anyone for a game of Chuck A Luck?) :p

 

HHHHHEEEEELLLLLLLLLLOOOOO VistaV: I had a good laugh reading your post. My so called "ignorance" comes from a Math expert who does a lot of work in games of chance. No matter what anyone thinks I put out this information because it is true and is proven by Mathmatics. It should be noted that these people are a lot smarter than I am. They have to be they have a Ph.D. in Mathmatics, I sure don't. I just follow what is already out there.

[RANTHEMAN]

If your Math expert with a Phd gave those stats....you better ask to see his transcript.:eek:

[Silverscreencruiser]

The odds at craps with X2 odds is virtually the same as at blackjack if the dealer stands on a soft 17 as happens on cruise ships now.

 

There are two differences:

 

1) First, it's a lot easier to learn how to bet properly at craps than it is to play basic strategy.

 

2) Second, you are actually betting a lot more money at the craps table to get those odds. If it's a $5 minimum table, most hands you will bet only $5 a hand at blackjack (there's some splitting and doubling). On the other hand, at the craps table, with a $5 minimum, unless you win or lose on the comeout roll, you're betting $15 a hand. A bad stretch can wipe you out a lot quicker that way (or you can win a lot more if there's hot dice).

[jetwet1]

HHHHHEEEEELLLLLLLLLLOOOOO Lisa&Neb: I disagree with you about the odds in Black Jack. The House has an 11% edge when six decks are used. Now most casinos use eight decks dealt out of a shoe. House edge goes up. The House also now uses a continous shuffle machine or a CSM. House edge now moves up even more. Regardless of your knowledge of basic strategy beating the house is now a long shot. Forget about counting cards. The CSM takes card counting out.

 

 

What are you talking about ?

 

Firstly, you have not given any clues to the house rules, so quoting an 11% edge isn't really right, second, even with tough rules an 11% edge is not going to happen, lastly, the majority of casino's are using 6 deck shoes not 8.

 

HHHHHEEEEELLLLLLLLLLOOOOO VistaV: I had a good laugh reading your post. My so called "ignorance" comes from a Math expert who does a lot of work in games of chance. No matter what anyone thinks I put out this information because it is true and is proven by Mathmatics. It should be noted that these people are a lot smarter than I am. They have to be they have a Ph.D. in Mathmatics, I sure don't. I just follow what is already out there.

 

If your Math expert with a Phd gave those stats....you better ask to see his transcript.:eek:

 

exactly, until last year I ran a Las Vegas casino, one of the bigger ones, trust me when I tell you I know more about table games than your PHD guy.

 

You will find some websites that claim that the house odds are anywhere from 8 - 12 %, the simple fact is, they are wrong.

 

If you go to this post HERE you will see that I posted the houe odds using pretty standard rules, for those to lazy to click on the link the house edge is around .28%

 

Now what they may be confusing the house edge with is the house win %, that should run around 18% on BJ, sometimes higher, sometimes lower, but ove the long term I would be happy with an 18% win as long as there was a decent drop.

[Casino Player]

If your Math expert with a Phd gave those stats....you better ask to see his transcript.:eek:

 

HHHHHEEEEELLLLLLLLLLOOOOO RANTHEMAN: First, he isn't my math expert. He had a Ph.D. in Math long before I first heard about him. Second, since he has spent a lot of time at casinos and figuring out probability I don't doubt him.

What I doubt is a website that puts up figures and doesn't tell you how they came to that or the methodology used to compile said statistics. In academics you must tell the methodology you used. On those Wizard of Odds and other websites they fail to do this. They print columns of alleged facts without telling you how they came to those numbers. They may just as well have pulled them out of thin air.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Casino Player