What constitutes "bad behavior"?

[CeleBrat]

 

Eh, I've calmed down some though...still upset about the one comment...but I'll get over it. We'll continue doing what we do, i.e. go to have a fun time, let kids be kids, but only as long as it's not too disruptive to others.

 

**Drags soapbox over and steps on it**

 

And there is the problem--you need to provide boundaries for your child, no matter what the age, so they understand what is polite and correct, and what is not. To blindly say that "As long as it's not too disruptive to others, it's OK", is reinforcing with your young child that it is OK to be somewhat rude and/or disruptive.

 

For example--if your child wanted to throw food across the table--your table, at a restaurant, would that be OK? It doesn't really bother any of the other diners, right? Or how about spitting? Would that be allowed, as long as it doesn't happen to fall on any of the other tables?

 

Do you see my point? Your 3 year old doesn't really have the reasoning capabilities to decipher WHERE that boundary line is. So now is the time to start reinforcing things like "No crawling under the table, and you must sit in your seat."

 

Kids should be kids, but should also have boundaries.

 

**Stepping off soap box, and returning to the regular FUN-NATURED poster that I usually am**

 

CeleBrat

[kitty9]

One thing you might not realize with regards to the under the table thing is that the tables in the main dining room are quite close together and with a child crawling in and around and under the table could cause a problem with the waiters carrying trays. Not only that, but the chairs around the tables on cruise ships tend to be very close together and there's not much room for crawling, and with the tables being very close, your child could very easily make his way to other tables and that would definitely upset other diners. When the waiters are carrying their heavy trays, they do not look down and what would happen if one of the waiters tripped on your child as he's crawling out from the table? Food would fly everywhere and it could injure any number of people. Personally, I don't understand why a child needs to crawl under a table in any restaurant. It's not sanitary and it could be dangerous to a lot of people.

[RENMama]

If a kid is sitting quietly under their own table I dont see how that is an issue for others. Sure you may not like the "look" of a child being there but if they are being quiet and not causing a scene otherwise I would rather they be there and quiet than screaming.

 

We let our kids be a bit more wild than others. We have a bit more acceptance of kid like behavior.

 

For the most part our kids act well in restaurants.

[josetann]

One thing you might not realize with regards to the under the table thing is that the tables in the main dining room are quite close together....

 

Haven't had that problem at the restaurants we've been in, as we usually get a booth. Hence the disclaimer of "we haven't done this on a cruise yet, not sure how that'll turn out."

 

Still appreciate the responses. So far it seems as though I'm not a terrible parent, may want to reconsider letting him crawl under tables for sanitary reasons (not a huge concern) and because it may make it more difficult for parents to keep their kids from doing the same (more of a concern), and not sure about the whole "letting him sit at another table" thing. Some are against it, but haven't said it'd bother them directly.

 

The spitting thing...reminds me...if you don't want your kids to try to spit their drink out constantly, don't let them watch Madagascar (1 or 2). We broke down and let him spit only water, only at the house, and try to direct him to the shower. He hasn't done this outside of our house, but we keep an eye on him. Basically we have to get prepared once the movie starts, tell him only the water cup, and where it's allowed.

 

Speaking of movies, just got back and he did pretty well. We got the wrong pizza and it turned out to be a bit spicy (not good). Had some backup crackers (thank goodness!). He got fussy twice, but not for long (I did almost leave with him for a timeout though). A restaurant inside a movie theater...who woulda thought? Movie itself was good too.

[MamaParrotHead]

I'm on the side of "to each his own" when it comes to parenting, up to a point. As long as it doesn't interfere with others' meals or enjoyment. My main concerns are sanitary ones after you let the kiddo crawl around on the floor at Denny's, and then give him access to someone else's table that the staff may or may not notice to clean again before seating someone else.

 

But I'm a child care provider, I have been for 15 years. Mother of 2 (9 and 6) and it's been my experience that kids learn from way earlier than 3 what your expectations are for their behavior, and live up to them. Every kid has off days, granted. Nor do I think that kids shouldn't be taken out of the house. But quite honestly, and only because you asked, your child is probably less likely to be able to sit at the table and behave because he knows that those aren't your expectations of him. So you're sacrificing achieving your end goal (to have him sit) by showing him that he has a choice whether he wants to sit or not. I'm all FOR providing choices for kids, in certain situations. And to me, sitting in a restaurant isn't one of them. Which is totally up to you. But probably the wisest piece of unsolicited parenting advice I ever got was, "a little work now, or a lot of work later".

 

No flames intended.

[sas80]

I read this thread yesterday. I will go ahead and weigh in today.

 

About a month after I had my first baby I realized that everyone's well intentioned advice didnt make a hoot of difference if the child you are dealing with has a different personality than the advice givers child.

 

I had been a big believer that 'I knew' how to manage a child but, once again, the phrase 'walked a mile in their shoes' came back to haunt me.

 

Everyone has an opinion. Unless they are dealing with YOUR child, take their advice, comments and criticism with a grain of salt. Let them all roll of your back. Unless they have walked a mile in your shoes, the words coming out of their mouth have no weight.

 

Would I let my kid crawl underneath our table if we were out? No. BUT my toddler is fairly easy to manage. Would I let my kid sit at a different table (that was empty?) Maybe. It would depend on how deserted the restaurant was.

 

It's akin to the "one mans trash is another mans treasure" saying. You have to deal with your child's personalities. I can tell you, for sure, a mother with a child that has an easy and agreeable personality might judge your practices as abhorrent. If that same mother had your child (not that your child is difficult, I don't know your child) she would raise probably do the exact same thing that you do, because that is what works for your family and with your child.

 

Ignore the judgmental people. They don't know you, your child, your family or your situation.

 

(okay, now I am going to go back and read the comments in this thread)

[sas80]

I have a four year old, and I agree with what brenderlou said. One other thing I'd like to mention that is a pet peeve of mine...my son is not allowed to stand on the bench in the booth or on the chair while we're at a restaurant.

 

Our son is under strict orders that chairs/couches, etc are for sitting. The logic we use is "Mommy and Daddy don't stand in the chairs/couches, so neither do you" If the child chooses to challenge us we simply put him on the floor and tell him that he is anot allowed in the chair/couch, till he can sit.

 

We started this when he was 12 months old so now we dont have to say it more than once and he is sitting immediately. It does help in restaurants.

[kitty9]

I've been on 61 cruises on most of the cruise lines out there and I have not seen booths on cruise ships like you see at a Denny's. They just don't exist. They have tables that are for 2, 4, 6, 8 or 10 people, and no booths.

[ehough]

I think I am perhaps more lax than others on this topic; perhaps it's because I have an 18 month old myself and know firsthand how difficult dining can be sometimes!

 

DD is not allowed to sit under the table or at other tables. Those things simply have not occurred to me as a means of keeping her occupied while we wait, and I imagine I'd discourage them if she eventually gets the idea herself.

 

However, do I care if your child sits under the table or at an unoccupied table? Not in the least. As far as I'm concerned, whatever you have to do to keep your child happy and not disturbing other diners or the servers is more than okay with me. I personally think that is the key here. The people who would complain about your child under the table are the same people who would complain if your child fussed about not being allowed under the table.

 

Where you set your boundaries is not my problem, nor was it the question! I'm sure your child will not sit under the table when he's 12. Eventually this habit will be broken and in the meantime, I could care less if your 3 year old is quiet and happy under your table.

 

I am all for doing whatever is necessary to keep a child happy without interfering with others (within reason). For us, that means walking around, bringing toys, singing (quietly so that nobody can hear us), etc. The other day at lunch, DD played with the sugar packets on the table. It kept her quiet and occupied for half an hour. When we were done eating, I put them all neatly back in the container. No harm done to anyone, and best of all, she was quiet.

 

I just really think when it comes to young kids and dining, the key question is- will it disturb anyone (fellow diners as well as those working at the restaurant)? If the answer is no, then I see no problem.

[cyntil8ing]

I've been on 61 cruises on most of the cruise lines out there and I have not seen booths on cruise ships like you see at a Denny's. They just don't exist. They have tables that are for 2, 4, 6, 8 or 10 people, and no booths.

 

Just because you have not seen them does not mean they don't exist. Here is our booth on the Carnival Pride. There were quite a few.

 

 

Personally, I don't allow my children on the floor or at separate tables because dinner time is family time. At home or in a restaurant, we're at the table together to spend time with each other. It is expected that the children wait until everyone is seated and served to begin eating and that everyone remain at the table until we're all done.

 

We don't have many instances of bad behavior, but when we do, it's almost always because they're overtired or overly hungry. As parents, we try to minimize that, but when we can't, we just deal with it the best we can and apologize to those around us.

 

As far as what others allow their children to do, that's their business. My children are already quite familiar with the concept that our rules are different than other families. It will come in handy when they get older. ;)

[rjsams]

What if it wasn't busy? And what if we're not talking about a cruise, but a regular restaurant that doesn't have the tables setup (maybe they have some silverware and that's it, which often we need anyways as they don't bring any extra for him)? Sorry about asking a somewhat non-cruise related question...but in the other thread I had said this is what we let him do in land-based restaurants, not sure what we'd do on a cruise...would just have to see. Was still chided for this.

 

 

 

Ok, you don't allow it, but is it for cleanliness reasons or because it would be too disruptive to those around you? I shudder to think of what my son's put in his mouth, I don't think crawling under a table is going to kill him (we do check to make sure there's no tasty morsels left under there that he might want to try). Again, just curious what your thoughts are behind this. And thanks for responding.

 

I haven't responded to this, even on the other thread, but it occurs to me that the consensus has been overwhelmingly that it is INAPPROPRIATE for a child of any age to spend any time at all crawling around under a table during dinner. There are numerous reasons for this, cleanliness being just one of these. But the truth is, one role of a parent is to teach a child the proper way to behave: would it be appropriate for an adult to be crawling around under the table at a nice dinner? No. So is it behavior that a parent should tolerate of their child? No. How will they learn?

 

The same is true of sitting at another table, whether there are people waiting, table service on it, or whatever. It is inappropriate for one child to make use of/dirty two table areas. It wouldn't be considered appropriate of an adult, why a child?

 

My mother is a long-time elementary school teacher. I'm not trying to make any religious reference here, but she said she can always tell which children go to church regularly--they are the ones who know how to sit still in a school assembly for an hour. They've always been expected to do it!

 

I understand that children have different attention spans, developmental levels, etc. But if your child is not ready to exhibit appropriate behavior in the main dining room (or any nice restaurant), there are other options: babysitting, kids club, buffet restaurant, etc.

 

Maybe I sound like an cranky old person--(I'm 45, so I guess it's in your perspective). I have raised two wonderful children that know how to behave in public places. Sometimes that meant we as parents made sacrifices (i.e. didn't get to eat in the formal dining room) because our children weren't ready to do so appropriately. That, too, is part of parenthood.

 

Behaving according to social mores is our way of showing respect for those around us. It's not always easy to teach our children proper behavior when they're young, but it will pay off in huge dividends later. :cool:

[MamaParrotHead]

I've been on 61 cruises on most of the cruise lines out there and I have not seen booths on cruise ships like you see at a Denny's. They just don't exist. They have tables that are for 2, 4, 6, 8 or 10 people, and no booths.

 

Here's ours on the Valor. You can't see the table, but that's the back of the booth, the glass partition.

 

[sas80]

I haven't responded to this, even on the other thread, but it occurs to me that the consensus has been overwhelmingly that it is INAPPROPRIATE for a child of any age to spend any time at all crawling around under a table during dinner. There are numerous reasons for this, cleanliness being just one of these. But the truth is, one role of a parent is to teach a child the proper way to behave: would it be appropriate for an adult to be crawling around under the table at a nice dinner? No. So is it behavior that a parent should tolerate of their child? No. How will they learn?

 

The same is true of sitting at another table, whether there are people waiting, table service on it, or whatever. It is inappropriate for one child to make use of/dirty two table areas. It wouldn't be considered appropriate of an adult, why a child?

 

My mother is a long-time elementary school teacher. I'm not trying to make any religious reference here, but she said she can always tell which children go to church regularly--they are the ones who know how to sit still in a school assembly for an hour. They've always been expected to do it!

 

I understand that children have different attention spans, developmental levels, etc. But if your child is not ready to exhibit appropriate behavior in the main dining room (or any nice restaurant), there are other options: babysitting, kids club, buffet restaurant, etc.

 

Maybe I sound like an cranky old person--(I'm 45, so I guess it's in your perspective). I have raised two wonderful children that know how to behave in public places. Sometimes that meant we as parents made sacrifices (i.e. didn't get to eat in the formal dining room) because our children weren't ready to do so appropriately. That, too, is part of parenthood.

 

Behaving according to social mores is our way of showing respect for those around us. It's not always easy to teach our children proper behavior when they're young, but it will pay off in huge dividends later. :cool:

 

Lol, we don't need Ritalin for ADD, we just need to send kids to church so they learn to sit still and focus for long periods of time!

 

Seriously, the mention of this idea has me wondering if the reality of the ADD/Ritalin upswing has more to do with parents just not requiring their children to sit still and focus....

[CanadianTwosome]

I think I am perhaps more lax than others on this topic; perhaps it's because I have an 18 month old myself and know firsthand how difficult dining can be sometimes!

 

DD is not allowed to sit under the table or at other tables. Those things simply have not occurred to me as a means of keeping her occupied while we wait, and I imagine I'd discourage them if she eventually gets the idea herself.

 

However, do I care if your child sits under the table or at an unoccupied table? Not in the least. As far as I'm concerned, whatever you have to do to keep your child happy and not disturbing other diners or the servers is more than okay with me. I personally think that is the key here. The people who would complain about your child under the table are the same people who would complain if your child fussed about not being allowed under the table.

 

Where you set your boundaries is not my problem, nor was it the question! I'm sure your child will not sit under the table when he's 12. Eventually this habit will be broken and in the meantime, I could care less if your 3 year old is quiet and happy under your table.

 

I am all for doing whatever is necessary to keep a child happy without interfering with others (within reason). For us, that means walking around, bringing toys, singing (quietly so that nobody can hear us), etc. The other day at lunch, DD played with the sugar packets on the table. It kept her quiet and occupied for half an hour. When we were done eating, I put them all neatly back in the container. No harm done to anyone, and best of all, she was quiet.

 

I just really think when it comes to young kids and dining, the key question is- will it disturb anyone (fellow diners as well as those working at the restaurant)? If the answer is no, then I see no problem.

 

We're pretty laid back parents ourselves, and for the most part, I agree with everything you've said. I do have a problem with the sugar packets, though - not unlike the problem I have with a child sitting at another table, though that has even more potential issues.

 

It may sound trivial, but allowing your child to handle something that someone else is going to touch while eating is unsanitary. There's a reason tables are wiped between guests, but you can't wipe sugar packets. My daughter attends the one school in our city that had a swine flu outbreak in June, and I can tell you from first hand experience, it wasn't pretty. I can also tell you that if one of the older kids had come home from school and interacted with their little sister, and then that little sister had handled all the sugar packets on a table in a restaurant, there would have been some very unhappy people when after their nice evening out they wound up sick for over a week.

 

The same goes for the table thing. I guess when I mentioned it before I wasn't clear that it absolutely would bother me to see someone else's child sitting at an open table. (based on Josetann's reply above) The same health issues exist, but it's not just a case of children's hands where someone else has to eat, or creating more work for the staff, there is also a safety issue. If your small child is sitting at another table, are they going to 'look both ways' before heading back to yours? Maybe. But maybe not, and jumping into the aisle between the tables could be extremely dangerous.

 

My feeling when I go into a restaurant is that part of what I'm paying for is a piece of 'personal space'. I feel like I am entitled to a certain amount of freedom of choice regarding what goes on in my 'space' as long as it doesn't impact on anyone else's 'space'. The 'other table' thing affects someone else's space (even if it is unoccupied, it's still someone else's), which I think is inconsiderate. The sugar packet thing, while within your 'space', also affects others by touching something you don't need to touch and which cannot be sanitized before the next person (unknowingly) comes into contact with it.

 

So, my point is that along with 'Will it disturb anyone?' I think it's important to ask 'Will it AFFECT anyone?' Any time a child (or adult) touches something, they are potentially leaving germs behind for the next person to come in contact with, and it MAY affect them. Believe me, after the swine flu, I take 'may affect them' VERY seriously.

[CanadianTwosome]

As far as what others allow their children to do, that's their business. My children are already quite familiar with the concept that our rules are different than other families. It will come in handy when they get older. ;)

 

I can't agree more with this statement. I've said it myself in one form or another many, many times. We appear to have higher expectations than many other parents when it comes to manners, public behaviour, use of profanity, and academic performance. In the end, though, I don't believe our expectations are 'too high' but rather those of the other parents (and sadly the school system) are 'too low'. I'm okay with it, though... when my daughter is an adult and she's out competing for positions, raises and promotions, she'll have the edge. :) (and she'll know what fork to use at the company formal... :p)

[WestCoastCat]

I'm on the side of "to each his own" when it comes to parenting, up to a point. As long as it doesn't interfere with others' meals or enjoyment. My main concerns are sanitary ones after you let the kiddo crawl around on the floor at Denny's, and then give him access to someone else's table that the staff may or may not notice to clean again before seating someone else.

 

But I'm a child care provider, I have been for 15 years. Mother of 2 (9 and 6) and it's been my experience that kids learn from way earlier than 3 what your expectations are for their behavior, and live up to them. Every kid has off days, granted. Nor do I think that kids shouldn't be taken out of the house. But quite honestly, and only because you asked, your child is probably less likely to be able to sit at the table and behave because he knows that those aren't your expectations of him. So you're sacrificing achieving your end goal (to have him sit) by showing him that he has a choice whether he wants to sit or not. I'm all FOR providing choices for kids, in certain situations. And to me, sitting in a restaurant isn't one of them. Which is totally up to you. But probably the wisest piece of unsolicited parenting advice I ever got was, "a little work now, or a lot of work later".

 

No flames intended.

 

I totally agree.

[josetann]

ut the truth is, one role of a parent is to teach a child the proper way to behave: would it be appropriate for an adult to be crawling around under the table at a nice dinner? No. So is it behavior that a parent should tolerate of their child? No. How will they learn?

 

There's lots of things that we "tolerate" our kids doing that we wouldn't do ourselves. Little kids pick their noses (ok, bad example, as we'd probably tell him to stop, plus plenty of adults do this too). Little kids can run up to other kids and give a big hug (if I went to a complete stranger and hugged him/her, I'd get punched or arrested). My son's gone up to a complete stranger and promptly sat in her lap (I'd be hauled away for that one). Little kids can eat birthday cake with their hands. List goes on and on. Now, I would expect better manners from a 12 year old, but should we have the same expectations from a 3 year old?

 

Oh, and I might join my son under the table if I'd fit, and could get over the ick factor (if that's a double standard so be it; but it's generally fine for kids to go outside and get muddy head to toe and eat dirt, while I'd try to avoid that).

 

The same is true of sitting at another table, whether there are people waiting, table service on it, or whatever. It is inappropriate for one child to make use of/dirty two table areas. It wouldn't be considered appropriate of an adult, why a child?

I've often wished I could sit at a different table when we're out with my wife's side of the family. Another one of those things that kids can get away with, but not adults. Sigh.

 

My mother is a long-time elementary school teacher. I'm not trying to make any religious reference here, but she said she can always tell which children go to church regularly--they are the ones who know how to sit still in a school assembly for an hour. They've always been expected to do it!

Yes, I learned that valuable lesson in church myself. It came in very useful later in life. I was one of the few who could be in a classroom during Basic Training and get any sleep. The ones who didn't go to church were in the back holding a heavy object with both arms at chest level.

 

I think a lot of smilies may be needed after that one, I was just joking (ok, so it actually happened but I'm still just joking!).

 

:p;):D:o:):rolleyes:

[josetann]

Lol, we don't need Ritalin for ADD, we just need to send kids to church so they learn to sit still and focus for long periods of time!

 

Seriously, the mention of this idea has me wondering if the reality of the ADD/Ritalin upswing has more to do with parents just not requiring their children to sit still and focus....

 

The main reason for the increased diagnosis of ADD and related conditions are because many expect kids to act like robots and be exactly alike. Some kids just are more active than others. Some kids learn in different ways. Kids weren't really designed to sit for the majority of the day. Adults have better cushioning for that duty.

 

Ok ok, I know...smilie time again. :)

 

No offense to those who truly do have this condition and actually need medication.

[josetann]

So, my point is that along with 'Will it disturb anyone?' I think it's important to ask 'Will it AFFECT anyone?' Any time a child (or adult) touches something, they are potentially leaving germs behind for the next person to come in contact with, and it MAY affect them. Believe me, after the swine flu, I take 'may affect them' VERY seriously.

 

If you're that worried about cross-contamination, then you don't want to know what really goes on. One, you have to worry about everyone else's child and hope they stay as sanitized as yours (most don't). Two, you're putting too much faith into the cleaning job restaurant workers do. When I worked in fast food and had to clean the lobby, I know I used a separate rag to clean the tables and another to clean the bathroom. Hopefully everyone does. Three, you're putting too much faith in the adults. I've seen non-hygienic behavior, and it often has nothing to do with kids. I haven't seen many kids not wash their hands after going to the bathroom. Wish I could say the same for the adults.

 

We stopped worrying constantly about our kids and germs. I've had people say they wanted to visit, but were afraid we'd get their cold. I tell them if we were worried about that, we'd never go visit my dad (he's got three kids still at home, and someone's always coming down with something, has something, or is getting over something). My son does know how to wash his hands, and when that's not practical he's been known to find the baby wipes and wipe his hands himself (still working on getting him to put them in the trash, and not back in the wipe container). If I worried about every single dirty surface he may touch, or every little germ...USA Network would be wanting to make a sitcom about me.

[J & G]

I've been on 61 cruises on most of the cruise lines out there and I have not seen booths on cruise ships like you see at a Denny's. They just don't exist. They have tables that are for 2, 4, 6, 8 or 10 people, and no booths.

 

If you cruise on one of RCI's Voyager-class ships, you will find booths in Johnny Rockets....just like a 50's diner.

 

Anyone joining us on this cruise? We have an alumni group from the University of Wisconsin that will be on board. We did this cruise last year and had 97 in our group.

 

Doesn't Navigator, that you reference here, have a Johnny Rockets?

[farler05]

I don't think any restaurant should be considered a kids play area-unless it's a McD with a play area. Crawling under the table and sitting at neighboring tables should be nipped right now. When I see this kind of behavior, I think wild animal. It's not good behavior for any age. I agree that kids are gonna be kids and some can sit still for longer than others, but that is where discipline and parental guidance come in.

 

I didn't see the other post you mentioned so I don't know what is specifically bothering you. Your child sounds normal and I don't see why you can't cruise and do other things with him. And I have to agree with snowbuddy-it's not my place to tell you how to raise your kid.

 

I agree 1000%. Quite honestly, if you're child can't remain in their seat or on your lap, then they don't belong in the dining room. They don't belong in any sit down restaurant. I would never allow my child under the table because it is disgusting & not appropriate restaurant behavior. I won't allow it at home, where I know what's on the floor, I sure as heck wouldn't allow it in a restaurant where 100s of feet (with who knows what on the bottom of their shoes) have been. I also would not let them sit at another table. They belong at my table, with me. Not dirtying another table that the server will have to clean again, regardless of how busy the restaurant is.

 

Teach your child manners & appropriate behavior from the beginning & they will behave. If you make excuses for them & do not teach them, they will not develop manners & learn the appropriate way to behave.

 

I know the OP isn't going to listen to a word I've said. I've read every one of their rationalizations for allowing their child to behave in an inappropriate manner. He's latching onto the slightest hint of validation & ignoring the overwhelming response that this behavior does not belong in any dining room.

[josetann]

I know the OP isn't going to listen to a word I've said. I've read every one of their rationalizations for allowing their child to behave in an inappropriate manner. He's latching onto the slightest hint of validation & ignoring the overwhelming response that this behavior does not belong in any dining room.

 

Not breaking down and begging forgiveness for how wrong I've been and vowing to change my ways does NOT mean I'm not listening. As I've said MANY times in this thread (it's kinda hard to miss), I appreciate differing views. It might not change what I do, but it at least gives me another point of view to consider.

[CanadianTwosome]

If you're that worried about cross-contamination, then you don't want to know what really goes on. One, you have to worry about everyone else's child and hope they stay as sanitized as yours (most don't). Two, you're putting too much faith into the cleaning job restaurant workers do. When I worked in fast food and had to clean the lobby, I know I used a separate rag to clean the tables and another to clean the bathroom. Hopefully everyone does. Three, you're putting too much faith in the adults. I've seen non-hygienic behavior, and it often has nothing to do with kids. I haven't seen many kids not wash their hands after going to the bathroom. Wish I could say the same for the adults.

 

We stopped worrying constantly about our kids and germs. I've had people say they wanted to visit, but were afraid we'd get their cold. I tell them if we were worried about that, we'd never go visit my dad (he's got three kids still at home, and someone's always coming down with something, has something, or is getting over something). My son does know how to wash his hands, and when that's not practical he's been known to find the baby wipes and wipe his hands himself (still working on getting him to put them in the trash, and not back in the wipe container). If I worried about every single dirty surface he may touch, or every little germ...USA Network would be wanting to make a sitcom about me.

 

I think you've missed my point. First, note that I did mention adults as well as children. I don't want ANYONE'S germs if I can avoid them; I don't care how old they are. Also, I'm not putting faith in anyone. I tend to lean the other way and expect people to be filthy dirty pigs, which is why I don't want them touching the table I'm going to be eating at when it's not their table. I'm very impressed that your toddler knows how to wash his hands, but in between bathroom visits, what does he do with those hands? Wipe his nose? Rub his eyes? Put them in or near his mouth? How about touching whatever is under the table where he's playing? I don't want any of it where I'm going to eat, thank you. As I stated, I also think it's inconsiderate to create more work for the staff.

 

It's not about worrying about every surface I touch or my child touches. I'm definitely not a germophobe, even though it may sound like it. My point is simply that by not caring about the germs, bacteria, etc. that you're leaving for someone else, you ARE affecting others, and in my opinion that's just not cool. I also have to repeat that the making extra work is important, too. Are you tipping for both tables?

 

I was out with my daughter for lunch a while ago and while the children at the next table were in their seats the entire time, their parents engaged in conversation while the kids threw food all over the floor. It looked like a battle zone around their chairs when they were done and they all just got up and left without so much as an apology for the mess. My daughter and I were disgusted. It's just really crappy to create extra work for someone when it can be avoided - and in most cases, it can.

 

In case it hasn't been noticed, my point here is not about parenting, it's about affecting other people. It doesn't matter how old you are. One of the most important lessons in our home is to be aware of how your behaviour affects others, and it's never too early - or late - to learn it.:)

[beachchick]

There's lots of things that we "tolerate" our kids doing that we wouldn't do ourselves. Little kids pick their noses (ok, bad example, as we'd probably tell him to stop, plus plenty of adults do this too). Little kids can run up to other kids and give a big hug (if I went to a complete stranger and hugged him/her, I'd get punched or arrested). My son's gone up to a complete stranger and promptly sat in her lap (I'd be hauled away for that one). Little kids can eat birthday cake with their hands. List goes on and on. Now, I would expect better manners from a 12 year old, but should we have the same expectations from a 3 year old?

 

Of course I don't have the same expectations for a 3 y/o, a 12 y/o, and an adult. However, it is not appropriate for anyone to "eat birthday cake with their hands" in a fine dining restaurant. It is not appropriate for a young child to run up to a stranger and jump into his/her lap in a nice restaurant, and so forth. The venue under discussion is a fine dining restaurant. A child who cannot or will not behave in a reasonably appropriate manner for the venue should not be in the dining room.

 

I have no problem with children running around and playing, but not in the dining rooms. It is a danger to them and to others. It is not appropriate to allow a child to crawl around under the table in a nice restaurant; it is not appropriate to allow a child to go sit and play at an neighboring table in a nice restaurant.

 

The point is appropriate behavior for where you and your child are. The dining rooms are elegant with most passengers nicely to formally dressed (depending) and a professional waitstaff. They are not a place to allow a child to play.

Oh, and I might join my son under the table if I'd fit, and could get over the ick factor (if that's a double standard so be it; but it's generally fine for kids to go outside and get muddy head to toe and eat dirt, while I'd try to avoid that).

 

You'd play under the table in a nice restaurant if you could fit? You'd crawl around on the floor while wearing elegant clothes? In that case, I don't know why you're really asking about this. If you don't think it would be inappropriate for you, of course you don't think it would be inappropriate for your child.

 

I've often wished I could sit at a different table when we're out with my wife's side of the family. Another one of those things that kids can get away with, but not adults. Sigh.

 

What exactly is it that you're saying kids can get away with? You mean they can get away with leaving the table and wandering to another one? IMO, this is not something children should be allowed to get away with in a nice restaurant.

 

Yes, I learned that valuable lesson in church myself. It came in very useful later in life. I was one of the few who could be in a classroom during Basic Training and get any sleep. The ones who didn't go to church were in the back holding a heavy object with both arms at chest level.

 

I think a lot of smilies may be needed after that one, I was just joking (ok, so it actually happened but I'm still just joking!).

 

:p;):D:o:):rolleyes:

 

I agree 1000%. Quite honestly, if you're child can't remain in their seat or on your lap, then they don't belong in the dining room. They don't belong in any sit down restaurant. I would never allow my child under the table because it is disgusting & not appropriate restaurant behavior. I won't allow it at home, where I know what's on the floor, I sure as heck wouldn't allow it in a restaurant where 100s of feet (with who knows what on the bottom of their shoes) have been. I also would not let them sit at another table. They belong at my table, with me. Not dirtying another table that the server will have to clean again, regardless of how busy the restaurant is.

 

Teach your child manners & appropriate behavior from the beginning & they will behave. If you make excuses for them & do not teach them, they will not develop manners & learn the appropriate way to behave.

 

I know the OP isn't going to listen to a word I've said. I've read every one of their rationalizations for allowing their child to behave in an inappropriate manner. He's latching onto the slightest hint of validation & ignoring the overwhelming response that this behavior does not belong in any dining room.

 

Good post. I think the OP is "listening," but not particularly caring what others think. Reading the overwhelming responses about why some behaviors are not appropriate doesn't seem to have made much difference as he doesn't seem inclined to change any behavior. I can't imagine why he wants to consider other points of view because every response has rationalized why children should be allowed to "get away with" inappropriate behavior.

 

beachchick

[josetann]

Of course I don't have the same expectations for a 3 y/o, a 12 y/o, and an adult. However, it is not appropriate for anyone to "eat birthday cake with their hands" in a fine dining restaurant. It is not appropriate for a young child to run up to a stranger and jump into his/her lap in a nice restaurant, and so forth. The venue under discussion is a fine dining restaurant. A child who cannot or will not behave in a reasonably appropriate manner for the venue should not be in the dining room.

 

But many here think you should be "consistent", i.e. letting him eat his birthday cake with his hands at Chuck E Cheese is teaching him to do so at all restaurants, and he'll never grow out of it. I think in some places it's semi-acceptable, others you'll get some weird looks, and then others might ask you to leave. Oh and no, he doesn't get to bother people at other tables while eating...the times he's gone right to someone and sat in her lap would be at the playground or an indoor play area. Just saying...kids aren't expected to act the same regardless of age. This may be acceptable for a 3 year old, but not a 10 year old.

 

You'd play under the table in a nice restaurant if you could fit? You'd crawl around on the floor while wearing elegant clothes? In that case, I don't know why you're really asking about this. If you don't think it would be inappropriate for you, of course you don't think it would be inappropriate for your child.

I meant that as a joke. If I were his size, who knows for sure? But no, I do have decent manners. I won't be crawling under the table at a classy restaurant...well unless our infant throws her pacifier in the one spot that you can't reach without getting down on all fours.

 

What exactly is it that you're saying kids can get away with? You mean they can get away with leaving the table and wandering to another one? IMO, this is not something children should be allowed to get away with in a nice restaurant.

But what about at a fast food restaurant? Or just a regular everyday restaurant? My point in that particular case is that he could sit at a separate table and we could say "oh, he's just being independent." If I tried to sit at a separate table because the in-laws are there...I'd never hear the end of it.

 

I can't imagine why he wants to consider other points of view because every response has rationalized why children should be allowed to "get away with" inappropriate behavior.

The thread was started mainly to see what others thought. I didn't mean for it to be an "Is this wrong and if so, make me stop!" thread. I know there's parents out there who let their kids get away with much more. Maybe I'm the worst one who'll admit to their child's behavior? Ha! I was curious as to what others let their kids get away with, and what people thought of such behavior. I.e., "That's the worst thing I've ever heard of a parent letting their child do!", "Well, that is a bit weird, but to each their own I suppose.", "Sounds perfectly normal to me.", or "That's nothing, you should see what we let OUR kids get away with!"