AnhaltER1960

Serious trouble indeed, somehow I do have a bad rumour in my stomach, which tells me, we will not see any cruise operations on the Elbe this year. With cruises suspended until end of April by Viking (similar with other cruise lines), EU- borders closed for non EU-citizens until April 20th (with the chance to go into extratime), on top, czech border closed for all foreigners open end, there wont be cruises until well into summer, I guess. Maybe June/July. From what Ive heard, Viking were planning to do the boatel job in July/Aug/Sept anyway (they learnt from the last years ...). And the Elbe still suffers from the 2018-draught, so it will need plenty of rain to keep the water level up, yes, maybe that rain will fall.

And whether there will be enough customers after the corona-crisis, who regain confidence to travel abroad remains to be seen. Also, how much of that feelgood-factor will be left, which was fuelled by high stock markets and a real estate bubble and boosted the travel and cruise industry in the last years.

@notamermaid:thanks, personally I am fine, just havin aaaa lot o' time :-). I hope you are doing well, too.

Living in Dessau, by the Elbe near Wittenberg, in the federal state of Saxony-Anhalt, Germany. Here life froze down to near zero. within a week. Museums, concert halls, theatres, closed since last weekend, Schools closed last monday (March 16th)., since midweek only shops for food, drugstores, newsagents, booksellers, DIY and garden stores allowed to open and church services were stopped. Restaurants closed from today on, only delivery or take-away possible.

Actions to execute the Infection Protection Law in Germany is in the hands of the federal states, not the feral level. While the states are trying to synchronise their actions, they do differ a bit from state to state. Saxony-Anhalt has forbidden all touristic travel including coaches entering or leaving the state. Hotels are not allowed to welcome guests who are travelling as tourists.

From today all gatherings of more than two people are forbidden on public space as well as leaving the house "without urgent reason". Urgent reasons include going to work, medical reasons, buy provisions, visits to close relatives, helping others, walking/ cycling for sport/recreation reasons, walking the dog.

That is not a whole curfew yet, but unseen in peace times. For many people seeing empty shelves in the shops seems to be a flashback to communist times and some are buying whatever they can (interesting though to read the toilet paper thing in the US - same here). All actions here are limited until Easter or earlier, which seems too short. Quarantaine comes from the french quarente (=fourty), took 40 days then ...I hope it wont last that long, but I am absolutely not sure. 

Steinwerder is lousily connected with the public transport. From Steinwerder terminal you have to walk 15 min to Argentinienbrücke to catch a ferry or bus - if they run. Public transport in the harbour area is aimed at commuters, so they run scarcely outside commuting hours and not at all on weekends or public holidays.

The 73 ferry sails to Landungsbrücken, where you can change to U-Bahn or S-Bahn. Alter Elbtunnel also starts near Landungsbrücken. From the south side of the tunnel it would be a 45 to 60 min walk through not too exciting harbour area. There is a bus 156 from the Elbtunnel to Argentinienbrücke, too.

Best refer to the website of public transport https://www.hvv.de/en. Enter "Argentinienbrücke" as starting and "Steinwerder (Alter Elbtunnel)" or "Landungsbrücken" as destination.

You can buy tickets with the bus driver, at vending machines on the ferry or large station, or online, just browse the hvv site. I would recommend the day ticket (or 9am-day ticket, if applicable), which allows you unlimited hop-on-hop-off on all S-Bahn, U-Bahn, busses and harbour ferries (even some local trains) within Hamburg city limits. 

After two devastating seasons in a row, a very devastating 2018 and a bit less devastating 2019 on the Elbe, what will the 2020 season bring ?

First, water levels were an issue until the end of 2019. Not for Viking, they could resume operating on the river in October and complete their season in November as scheduled. But other ships with deeper draft like the Junker Jörg did not make it upriver an had to cancel their cruises on the middle Elbe in December.

Water levels remained an issue in January, as there was almost no precipitation an no real winter, meaning not much snow in the bohemian and saxon hills which could feed a snow melt later in the year. There werent any cruises affected, as there werent any  scheduled. Only in February, some storms brought rain and lifted the water levels at least to the long time average. But if the river does not fill in this time of year, when will it ? There is still a massive water deficit in the meadows and groundwater accompanying the Elbe, so they will hold back plenty of water and not release it to the river.

To sum up, I am not all too optimistic for 2020. I do not see flooding in March without snowmelt. Of course, my glass bowl does not see how wet the year will be, but with water levels that low now, there will be trouble in summer, given standard rainfall. 

Astrild and Beyla in their winter haven in Tangermünde:

From wha

1 hour ago, CPT Trips said:

Well, sadly a visit to the Green Vault is out. Any idea how the investigation and aftermath is affecting the other nearby museums.

From what we have learnt, access to the Green Vault outside their opening hours is not too difficult. And the security personell will not bother you....

ok, seriously. The Historical Green Vault remains closed for the time of the investigations. Other museums and parts of the Dresden Residence, including the New Green Vault, reopened today and have regular opening hours.

Atumn with rain, sunshine, more rain. Enough rain to fill the Elbe to allow sailing probably to the end of this year. Viking as well as CroisiEurope have resumed their sailings. For other the rain came too late, at least too late to re-re-schedule their itinerary.

Not easy observing the water levels, meet a decision to cancel, inform the customers, rearrange buses, tour guides, restaurants and so on. And then everything reverse, as all of a sudden there is water in the river. Travellers on the Viking ship in the last days hit the jackpot. After having been informed the cruise is not taking place and choice between cancellation or boatel, things changed and the ship could sail. So those who chose to travel got a full cruise (on an only two thirds filled ship) and the promised 50 % discount for the next cruise on top.

11 hours ago, notamermaid said:

But Anglophones can you now book an Elbe cruise going from Hamburg to Dresden, yes, quite different - and it is not with CroisiEurope. Scylla with their river cruise company Viva Cruises are trying to establish themselves on the North-American market and are offering a cruise on the Junker Jörg (ex Theodor Fontane): https://www.viva-*****/us/cruisedetail/?id=61&startDate=2020-05-02&endDate=2020-05-09&dur=7

 

 

 

 

 

@ notamermaid, thanks for pointing that new offer of an real Elbe cruise. May is a month, which is quite safe to sail, important for a ship like the Fontane, which draws more than 120 cm.

The advantage of cruising on a river is, you cannot get lost. You might get stuck on shallow ground, but you cannot get lost. Important to those, who confuse Wittenberg and Wittenberge (look at their excoursion side). Happened already to others, who board a train in Berlin wanting to see the Luther sites (Wittenberg) and end on a train to Wittenberge (150 mls away).

Surprise surprise. At a time when (nearly) everybody thought, that would be it for the season, Viking will be sailing again. The Tours starting around Oct 10th they will at least sail Dresden-Wittenberg and the other way round (didnt memorize the exact dates)

I agree to others, that the Bay of Naples does not offer the water quality to swim.

There is however an alternative aside from Ischia: the beaches around Cuma and Torregaveta across the peninsula of Miseno to the west of Naples. Easy to reach with the Ferrovia Cumana, which has its western railhead at Torregaveta virtually on the beach, 35 minutes from Naples-Montesanto station in the city centre.

If the beach does not fill your day (might well happen in October), the area has some archeology and geology with the

* excavations of the roman town of Cumae,

* Capo Miseno, former port of the roman fleet

* Baiae, spa from roman times

* Solfatara, active sulphur emitting crater

and is also a weekend destination for the Neapolitans, so some infrastructure for a meal away from the tourist floods.

On 8/20/2019 at 10:34 PM, notamermaid said:

@AnhalterER1960, are steamships sailing out of Dresden?

 

notamermaid

 

@ notamermaid, , I havent been to Dresden in recent weeks, so I cannot say from own observations. But the internet said that the "white fleet" did not run their complete schedule. At least that was the situation at the time of your question. Now the situation has changed as a result of this weeks rainfall in Bohemia. There is quite some wave coming down the Elbe - just not sure, how long. 

5 hours ago, oldgeez said:

Any updates on the Elbe water depth?

Can anyone point me to a site (or sites) where I can monitor this info?

Look here: http://www.pla.cz/portal/sap/en/PC/?data=1

for the water levels and discharge in the Czech Republic. Water discharge at Decin below round 100 cubic metres per second mean not enough water to sail further downriver.

So far the situation remains unchanged from the last weeks. It does rain occasionally, but mostly local and not enough to refill the Elbe. Furthermore, last years drought dried out the soils, so they keep every drop they can get, as well as the plants. So even moderate or local railfalls do not reach the river. 

5 hours ago, oldgeez said:

We're scheduled to board the Viking Astrild on 6 September. Hoping that we don't have to make the choice between cancelling or staying in a "boatel". 

Too early to predict. From what Ive heard, Viking will continue to do the boatel thing until the end of August and will review the situation towards the end of the month. In recent weeks on average roundabout 50 % of the guests took part of the tour with the other half cancelled.

51 minutes ago, FuelScience said:

Does the Elbe have similar problems downstream from Berlin? None of the lines serving North America seem to sail to Hamburg, but it might be a route worth pursuing if it doesn't suffer from the same navigation issues as the upper Elbe.

Firstly, the Elbe does nowhere get any closer to Berlin than 80/100 mls. But apart from that, yes, the lower Elbe also has some shallow parts.  At Magdeburg there is the "Dome Rock" ("Domfelsen" in German), which is a rocky outcrop within otherwise loose sands and forms a veritable threshold. Downriver from Magdeburg the Elbe is even less regulated, the navigation channel not really maintained, as there is a channel (not really) parallel to the Elbe, the Elbe Lateral Channel, which allows all-year sailing from Hamburg to Wolfsburg and from there on the Mittelland-Channel to Madgeburg and into Berlin.

There are indeed only a few sailings offered the Elbe all the way down to Hamburg, mostly in spring with usually higher water tables. 

From what I see, the QM2 is scheduled to dock at Steinwerder Cruise Terminal. Steinwerder is in the middle of the industrial port, far away from any public transport. And public transport there is adjusted to harbour workers and virtually non-existent on a sunday, when you will arrive.

So unless you want to splurge on a private limo service, the taxi is the way to go and without any real alternative. The standard business model of Uber, hiring a private car, is illegal in Germany, Uber will just work as a taxi-app with a taxi doing the job in the end.

Kaysersberg and Riquewihr sound like an excursion - they are some 20 mls away from the Rhine and not reachable by ship.

At Riquewihr try some Gewurztraminer @ Hugel et Fils , 3, rue de la première armée, that is at the intersection of the two main streets in the very centre of town. Try the 2015, if still available. It is one of the best vintages of the last decades.

No idea, where the 1,15 draft of the Beyla and the Astrild come from. Yes I know, wikipedia.....

Cruise critic states a minimum draft of 84 cm for the Astrild (https://www.cruisecritic.co.uk/reviews/review.cfm?ShipID=896) and this comes a bit closer. Looking at the marking of the Astrild or the Beyla you see a draft of 95 cm, give or take a few cm. So, as far as the draft is concerned, not much difference to the Elbe Princesses.

1 hour ago, steamboats said:

The paddlewheel propulsion combined with a flat bottom hull allows a shallower draft. Screws have to be more or less under the hull and are the first parts to tough the bottom of the river.

Also the Viking ships on the Elbe do not use screws. They use pump jets.

The Elbe Princesses are some 15 m shorter than the Astrild/Beyla giving them some advantage there. But CroisiEurope have their ships sailing all the way from Berlin to Prague, which means Elbe from Magdeburg until Melnik, which Viking gave up two (or three) years ago. But the actual shallow waters stop them both, and at the same time. So there is not much difference in the performance despite some differences in ship design.

The situation on the Elbe is unchanged. There even had been some spills of rain. But bar the raindrops, which directly hit the river, the Elbe hasnt seen any of the precipitation. All soaked up by the plants (and here rather leaves than roots) and the soil. A bit more rain is forecast for the weekend, even some heavy thunderstorms. But I doubt that this will be enough to fill the river.

1 hour ago, arlowood said:

Hi there

56cm at Dresden is only part of the story. Several places between Dresden and Wittenberg which is one of the Viking "termini" have lower levels. At Torgau the level is currently (excuse the pun) 42cm, at Pretzsch-Mauken it's only 19cm and at Elster it's 20cm. These figures have been gleaned from tha BfG website and are fairly reliable I would assume

 

Sure, the readings are reliable. However, those readings give only a relative water level against a fixed scale and do not say anything about the depth of the navigation channel. Elster's 20 cm do not mean, you can walk through the river without getting your knees wet. From last year we have learnt that Dresden readings of somewhere between 70  and 80 cm lead to stop of cruise operations. However, the decision to cancel a cruise depends not only on one figure, but on a complex set of figures and forecasts.

It is correct though that there are some critical passages between Wittenberg and Torgau, where in some curves the navigation channel is not wide enough. The depth is there, but not across the full width of the river. So long ships get into trouble in curves, the would need more width there, its geometry. The cruise ships of Viking and CoisiEurope draw only 90 cm (give and take few cm), but they are quite long. If they were,say, 20 m shorter, they would do far better at low water levels.

23 hours ago, Upgradefairy4u said:

 We had less than 72 hours to make a decision plus we are packed!!  I am still working so I don't have the luxury of traveling when I want, I have to go when work permits and we have planned this trip for over a year.  It took some convincing my sister to still go, she is hesitant, but I am reassuring her that it will work out for the best, Viking will make sure of that!!  I am looking forward to seeing the countries, history, and sights (and maybe even a little shopping!!)  Glad also to hear that the weather has broken and is now closer to normal temps.  Bon Voyage!  

Certainly you will see any of the sights promised in the itinerary and the Viking crew aboard the ships will deliver all the service you might expect. As roundabout one third of the passengers, maybe some more, will cancel, you will have more personal attention by the crew, have more space in the lounge/the sundeck, on the busses, smaller groups on the excursions. Just, you wont sail an inch.

The situation looks to remain unchanged for (at least) the next week. No rain in sight and even a bit of rain will not help.

14 hours ago, arlowood said:

Many thanks for the confirmation regarding the position of the Astrild in Wittenberg.

 

I would be grateful to hear if you observe any movement over the coming days and also any possible weather changes that might see an improvement in the river levels ahead of our expected cruise date of 16th July.

The heat of the weekend has gone, Bernburg in Saxony-Anhalt 50 mls west of Wittenberg hit the jackpot with 39,6 Celsius or 103 degrees Fahrenheit. Lower temperatures lead to some clouds, even a bit of rain (the colder temperatures cannot hold so much humidity) and some thunderstorms. Enough to send some water down the Elbe, which will rise the Dresden readings by roundabout 20 cm tonight. But not for long, not enough rain for more.

The rain you need has to fall in Bohemia by July 11th the latest, one day, better two days of rain. This is not in sight this week. Weather forecasts in central Europe for more than five days are not really reliable, so its not all over yet.

19 hours ago, arlowood said:

Just had a quick check on www.vesselfinder.com and contrary to what Anhalter1960 suggested this website puts the Astrild just slightly north of Dresden while the sister ship Beyla is actually in Dresden itself with a cluster of at least 6 other passenger ships in the vicinity.

 

If that is correct then its unlikely that Viking will be able to do any effective shuttle programme between the 2 ships until one or more can move on from where they are.

Will check the situation again tomorrow for any developments

Just had another look at vesselfinder.com. It indeed shows the Astrild a bit downriver from Dresden. It gives however a time tag June 26th, 0439 hrs UTC.  I am not completely sure on the conversion of UTC against Central European Summertime, but afair it is not more than 2 hours. This means the position is more than five days old, but inline with the Astrild having reached Wittenberg on June 27th, as reported earlier in the thread.

1 hour ago, arlowood said:

Hi there

 

Just a correction to my previous post. The Tripsavvy account is not current as I first suspected from to the publication date. Having read the piece in detail I came across reference to a "fall market" in Torgau and also reference to some site that would not be open until 2019. So I'm guessing that this was a report from a 2018 tour. Apologies for the misinformation.

 

The other info however is current from the passenger on the Beyla so coach shuttling is now a factor it would appear

Absolutely agree. The ship swap between Astrild and Beyla will be happening today or tomorrow.

Also thank you for bringing the report on Tripsavvy to our attention, which gives a detailed description of all the sites, which can be seen on the Elegant Elbe programme and also the trip report of that plan-b bustour. Your second suspicion is correct, it is not actual, but an older report. I can see that from the following points:

* There was no Viking ship swap this year so far.

* Wörlitz Gardens is no longer part of the programme since 2019

* Not visiting the Luther House in Wittenberg. The Luther House is part of the standard programme. But it was closed due to renovation works before the big anniversary 2017 from autumn 2016 to spring 2017. There had been ship swaps due to low water levels in autumn 2016. So I date this report to 2016.

10 hours ago, arlowood said:

Just had a quick check on www.vesselfinder.com and contrary to what Anhalter1960 suggested this website puts the Astrild just slightly north of Dresden while the sister ship Beyla is actually in Dresden itself with a cluster of at least 6 other passenger ships in the vicinity.

 

If that is correct then its unlikely that Viking will be able to do any effective shuttle programme between the 2 ships until one or more can move on from where they are.

Will check the situation again tomorrow for any developments

Vesselfinder is not correct on the position of the Astrild or is giving an outdated position. I have seen the Astrild in Wittenberg yesterday with my own eyes. I had seen yesselfinder too and this indeed puzzeled me. Not the first time that vesselfinder data (but for that matter the other ship location sites too) did not match my observations. That is why I put the questionmark on the position of the Viking Beyla in my yesterdays post. Dresden, however, makes sense and puts boths ships into the shipswap position they also had last year.

Buses and ship swap on the Elbe from now on. The water is too low to allow sailings.

Viking Astrild is moored in Wittenberg and did not leave upstream, Viking Beyla lies in ? Dresden (thats what the cruistrackers say). The Croisi-ships are probably in the canal between Berlin and Magdeburg, the other in the Moldau between Melnik an Prague, where they can sail. But 300 miles in between as a bus job.

Certainly not good news for all passengers booked on the Elbe now, as this dry period seems to remain a while. My guess from now, minimum 14 days and further depending on rain, if there is any to fall. It requires more than a few drops or even a thunderstorm, it needs a complete change of weather now. Pray ...

Since this tread is not only on water levels (though that topic might dominate in the near future), I want to draw your attention to Dresden.

Dresden does not only have wonderful museums, they also do special event: Long night at the museums on Saturday, July 6th. https://museumsnacht.dresden.de/index_de.php

All museums open extra from 6 pm until 1 am, will stage special events, concerts pp. Plenty of fun and, yes its going to be crowded.

At the time of posting Viking does not give any notification of schedule changes.

https://www.vikingrivercruises.co.uk/my-trip/current-sailings/index.html

However, the high temperatures of this week, more heat to come, hitting the 100 Fahrenheit on Sunday again and no rain in sight, the water table of the Elbe has dropped significantly. It now is on a level which last year brought the Elbe operations to a stop. So I do not place a high bet, that the Viking Astrild, which reached Wittenberg today on her downstream cruise, will leave on Saturday for the next upstream cruise.

1 hour ago, Got2Cruise said:

Have you seen one mention since the initial event? I know I learned about it on CC. Was it on the mainstream news? I don’t know. But I was referring to the investigation. Obviously the details of the event weren’t properly communicated because your friends tonight you might be in danger but it was 7 Korean tourists who perished. If all the facts were reported there would be no cause for alarm. 

28 Korean tourists died in the accident. 7 were found dead immediately, 21 were reported missing. But none of the missing people survived the crash as we know today. 3 bidies still missing, the others have been found in the river or within the sunken ship, which has been retrieved now.

Oh, by the way, that Cherry Beer is some Belgian stuff. Indeed not to everybodies taste.

Talking about Belgium: Philippe, Le Roi des Belges (Belgian king) and his wife will visit Wittenberg on July 10th. He could (probably will) see there the grave of his (12x) Great-grandfather, Elector John the Steadfast in the Castle Church.

As far as I see it, no cruise ship is scheduled to be in town that day though.