Interestedcruisefan

11 minutes ago, karatemom2 said:

 

 

Right now enough people honor the system that those who remove the CA charges do so without any consequence. But eventually I imagine if it tips too heavy in that direction the cruise lines will just adjust pricing accordingly and force everyone to pay an equal share because it will be mandatory. And then I imagine people will complain about that too. 
 

 

Wouldn't be anything to complain about?

You just book the cruise and pay the new price being asked or not?

Like any other purchase?

8 minutes ago, karatemom2 said:

 
Correct. Frankly I don’t care how they charge me - I would pay the charge either way. 
 

It’s the very people here complaining and who remove the CA, protesting that the crew should be paid a living wage who will feel the cost increase when it is inevitably made a mandatory charge or added into the fare. 
 

Right now enough people honor the system that those who remove the CA charges do so without any consequence. But eventually I imagine if it tips too heavy in that direction the cruise lines will just adjust pricing accordingly and force everyone to pay an equal share because it will be mandatory. And then I imagine people will complain about that too. 
 

 

So you purely worry about total cash spent rather than whether passengers are misled into spending it

So if you aren't concerned about at what stage you spend it

What's wrong with a transparent upfront cost ? 

Rather than the cruiseline calling it something that it clearly isn't?

You understand how it works most do not?

Do you want others to be misled?

2 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

I seriously doubt they would adopt this policy if it were not beneficial to the bottom line.   

 

Would you be willing to replace the current system with an increase in cruise fares that will likely be more than the current fare + gratuity?  And then, would you say tipping should still happen, or would it be no longer expected? 

 

I suspect people's strong feelings on this are heavily weighted by their home tipping culture. 

 

I already cruise elsewhere where tipping is not required. They state that specifically as a benefit of booking with them. They must be paying staff legal wages for that to happen 

And at the end of the cruise (and during for certain meals) I still tip cash for good service if I get it

But I tip less now than if there were no tips included and the staff were expecting cash tips at the end as in the old days. 

(When we shared same table with same waiters every night and obviously the cabin steward) 

Cost of cruise is a choice

But don't deceive me on staff appreciation

Anyway I've learnt my lesson now. Millions haven't I suspect

6 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

I have no problem calling it compensation.  That is what it is.   What I might (probably do) have issue with is how the pooled monies are redistributed to staff.  

One way or another the staff appreciation we pay (which should be advertised as compensation anyway) is quite simply increasing profits for Princess

Nothing more nothing less

It's a very clever but underhand way of extracting extra money from passers before the leave the ship (for no cost) in huge amounts per cruise

That's what it is. Disguised as a gratuity to thank the staff for a great job done. Doesn't matter what they spend it on. It's just adding to profits for shareholders and taking advantage of customer goodwill

6 minutes ago, Torfamm said:

I couldn't agree more.  The simplest thing would to just add $16 or $17 per day to cruise fares.

They would do that and then someone find a clever way to extract more involving staff appreciation somehow

It's just the nature of the beast

10 minutes ago, whitecap said:

So, taking a few minutes to re-read all the post and comments I think I have a handle on this and have found the "common ground".  First, "crew appreciation" is mis-leading as it would lead a person to believe that they are appreciating the service provided by the crew on the ship they are currently on; secondly, a cruiser has the ability to remove automatic gratuities and provide a "tip" to an individual for good/excellent service to the person(s) with a cash tip; third, those that want to pay the automatic wage supplement, also known as gratuities, can do so understanding that the money goes to Princess, not necessarily to anyone or group of individuals on the current sailing.  Individual decisions made by individual cruisers and there is no right or wrong.  It's your money be well informed as to how it is used and make your own decision.  

All correct

Misleading and we are actually NOT appreciating any crew at all we are simply giving Princess more of our cash direct for them to spend on their costs, add to their profits and/or pay shareholders with effectively

Rather than them put prices up and remove the entirely misleading daily crew appreciation tag

Even the word daily is cleverly used to make you think it's the daily service you are tipping for

At the end of the day its a surcharge they take in one lump sum that sounds better if spread daily!

2 minutes ago, Torfamm said:

This discussion made me realize that I'm not sure that tips weren't pooled in the old days when we were told exactly how much they suggested be placed in each envelope and handed to staff on the last night of a cruise. I've never heard any discussion about whether pooling is new. I have to acknowledge that this policy could actually be more transparent.

It couldn't be any less transparent if you tried to be honest

6 minutes ago, kywildcatfanone said:

I thought it was pretty common knowledge that the gratuities made up the majority of the crew's compensation if not 100%.

Common knowledge where and how exactly?

5 minutes ago, karatemom2 said:

You do understand that by altering the business model to eliminate the crew appreciation pool service charge, your cruise cost will not change. Those dollars will just be allocated in another way - either via higher cruise fares or mandatory service fees? 
 

So I guess my question is - what is the big difference here that some are expecting the cruise lines to make? The money will be collected to pay the crew, regardless of whether in the fare, service charge, or optional crew appreciation? So if you realize this is going to ultimately be the cost of cruising, why are the semantics of how it is charged so triggering for some?

For me it's not the cost at all

It's the lack of transparency and feeling I've  been duped

Not convinced about the money at all

Purely concerned that I know any money I spend with a business is going where I think it is

And dismayed about how blatantly this is being used to hoodwink people

And angry they caught me with it tbh

I gave my cabin steward cash last month as well. Plus gave my daughters and boyfriends cabin steward cash as well as paying their card tips for them 

Would have removed tips without a second thought and just paid more cash to the stewards and others on the ship

Let the ship worry about paying wages and having to put prices up

5 minutes ago, JimmyVWine said:

Then you don't go to restaurants.  In the post above I just listed 9 states because my fingers were getting tired of typing.  But you can see the pattern, can't you?

Why keep distracting what cruises are doing onto what happens in a restaurant though? 

People clearly in this thread feel they are being misled by Princess tipping 

Thats simple enough

Me included

I can have my own thoughts and policy on restaurant tipping

But it doesn't change the fact people don't like what they are reading about what Princess are doing

Regardless of whats happening anywhere else?

Do you accept that the vast majority have no idea what the money taken from their card is actually being used for on Princess?

And something happy and positive they think they are doing to thank staff is actually just being used towards basic wages and bonus? 

2 minutes ago, Torfamm said:

I'm curious, do you tip the same amount regardless of the amount of your bill or do you calculate your tip considering the total on you check?

In Canada it seemed to be add 15 per cent, 20 per cent of 25 per cent 

Very much based on total on check

2 minutes ago, karatemom2 said:

This is absolutely correct. Years ago in college, my husband was a server. Every evening he would cash out his tips and settle up with his behind the scenes colleagues per the restaurant guidekines. A set percent of his tips went to to hostess, busboy, and  chef. It’s an extremely common practice. 
 

in terms of this entire debate, it’s a fruitless effort in hand wringing. This type of pricing with crew gratuitous is a historical norm in cruising. It’s part of the cruise line culture. If you find it so onerous, maybe choose other travel options. Ultimately this crew appreciation piece has evolved into what a hotel would class as a service or resort fee. They charge these fees and you can’t remove them. I think the cruise lines need to go the same route - either make a mandatory service fee or add it to the fare. And then those people who normally remove it and yell about the fact the cruise lines should pay their staff a proper wage can either be forced to pay up or vote with their feet and vacation elsewhere. 
 

 

Yes just because it's happened and they've got away with it for a long time in the past doesn't mean they should continue to get away with it

Businesses are under lots of scrutiny nowadays and it's just some do the right thing before others do or they are forced to do with legislation at some stage regardless

And comparing cruiseline bad practise to  restaurants in a US State that doesn't pay minimum wage isn't actually a great defence is it?

They do this so cruiselines can copy?

Two wrongs don't make a right?

And restaurants aren't doing it to the extreme Princess have taken it for sure

4 minutes ago, Torfamm said:

That depends on the restaurant. Tip pooling is a very common practice.

To the chefs and the runners 

Not to the admin staff. The cleaners and the rest.

We are subsidising an entire organisation on Princess. Electricians, plumbers you name it we are topping up their wages 

None of which to do with service received as people know and believe it to be

4 minutes ago, Torfamm said:

Actually it's not how it works.  We often don't know who we are tipping at restaurants.  Many times tips are shared among various staff who we may never see or pooled and shared among all employees. The division of those tips is not necessarily based on good service.

 

In the US the amount people most commonly leave as a tip, is based mostly on a percentage of the total of their check than on service received.  For example, if someone purchases a $10 meal, a normal tip might be around $2 or $3 or if someone feels generous or gets exceptional service, maybe $5.  For a $100 meal, the tip is expected to be in the neighborhood of $20. What a server receives in tips depends much more on what customers order than the service they provide.

In Canada the job everyone wants is server 

They retain vast majority of the tips and make a fortune in a busy restaurant 

They give a proportion to other staff supporting them (happily) including chefs 

But they retain the vast majority

And when we tip in restaurants we are tipping based on the service the server gives us

In Canada and Alaska in the restaurants and bars on land the service was invariably superb

You can see how much servers value their jobs

2 minutes ago, JimmyVWine said:

Then you clearly do not understand how restaurants operate, because they are doing exactly what you say you won't do in your last sentence.  If the state minimum wage is $16 and the waiter is earning $8 from the employer, then your tip is what brings his wage up to $16.  You are making up for the employer not paying a good wage.  How are you not understanding this?

Are my tips to a server in a restaurant bringing up the wages of every single employee of the restaurant or just the person who served me who I want to help and tip?

2 minutes ago, Interestedcruisefan said:

To find it's actually a "staff compensation" charge

 

Which is exactly  what they should call it when they inform you what they intend to do

 

Rather than calling it something  flowery and misleading when you book then telling you what it really is should you go looking further 

 

 

And guys can you imagine the manhours they've put into discussing the best wording they could pick to get away with this knowing vast majority wont delve deeper

 

I can picture it now

 

They know what they are doing and how to take advantage of as many passengers as they can with this

 

Masters at work!!

And there's plenty of experienced cruisers in this thread not happy with it and only just realising what's been done to us

And we should know better than most!!

15 minutes ago, cruising.mark.uk said:

There's smallprint and there's smallprint.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree about whether this particular example is hidden or lacks transparency.

 

Individual books a Princess cruise and is informed there is a daily crew appreciation / service charge.  Wanting to be an informed consumer who knows what they are getting for their money, they type crew appreciation in search / FAQ on the Princess site and get the explanation at post 1.  

To find it's actually a "staff compensation" charge

Which is exactly  what they should call it when they inform you what they intend to do

Rather than calling it something  flowery and misleading when you book then telling you what it really is should you go looking further 

And guys can you imagine the manhours they've put into discussing the best wording they could pick to get away with this knowing vast majority wont delve deeper

I can picture it now

They know what they are doing and how to take advantage of as many passengers as they can with this

Masters at work!!

56 minutes ago, Selbourne said:

Apologies ICF. Ignore my last post. That was for Venturas 35 night Caribbean cruise in Jan 25. I’d missed the word Iona in your thread title, and I haven’t kept any notes on Iona or Arvia prices as neither interest us. 
 

Interesting if there’s been a price drop already but, as with many Iona and Arvia cruises, it’s a very ‘port lite’ itinerary so won’t suit everyone. 

I'm more concerned if there had been a price increase as I don't like "missing the boat so to speak'

And all of a sudden we want to book this cruise having ruled out Caribbean for a few days

I've been offered 2325 from an agent I book with

I just have in my head it may have been 1999 on launch day?

Maybe it was 2499 though?

I know at some stage I discussed this with MB but can't find the thread.

And she had correct answer before. The more I think back I'm thinking 2499 may have been original inside saver price

11 minutes ago, cruising.mark.uk said:

I cannot fathom how the text quoted in post 1 is deceptive or non-transparent.  

 

If it can be assumed that someone who books a cruise can read and cares enough about what they are buying to do a little research as to what their fare is paying for, how is it not absolutely clear how the crew appreciation / daily service charge is being allocated?  I do not believe that any native English speaker could infer from that text that this charge was a means for them to reward specific staff for service above and beyond the norm.  If they wish to do that, they need to add a tip / gratuity.

Couldn't disagree more with this Mark

This is highly significant money and I know for a fact all my family have been paying tips direct to cruise ships for the wrong reasons 

You must accept that this is deliberate ploy by cruiselines to mislead

And they're done it so brilliantly for so long

It's actually a shoddy industry when you delve deeper

I read a news article the other week where a business owner put in the smallprint of some terms and conditions that the first person to contact them and ask for a bottle of fine wine to be delivered would win a bottle of fine wine

And he then waited 6 months until someone claimed it

To highlight the fact nobody reads smallprint and how it can be used

With cruiselines you would like to think they were trustworthy enough not to try and put things in smallpriny like this to remove transparency

4 minutes ago, cruising.mark.uk said:

I cannot fathom how the text quoted in post 1 is deceptive or non-transparent.  

 

If it can be assumed that someone who books a cruise can read and cares enough about what they are buying to do a little research as to what their fare is paying for, how is it not absolutely clear how the crew appreciation / daily service charge is being allocated?  I do not believe that any native English speaker could infer from that text that this charge was a means for them to reward specific staff for service above and beyond the norm.  If they wish to do that, they need to add a tip / gratuity.

Smallprint is where people hide stuff they don't want you to know. 

You will hear in adverts on UK radio all the time now that advertising standards make the advertisers say the smallpriny verbally at the end of the advert

There should be buyer beware notes all over what cruiselines are doing and there should no  longer be allowed to use the word gratuities or crew appreciation in the headlines to describe these fees

Then hiding it in the smallprint

1 minute ago, whitecap said:

You say the system is working, my take is that the system is scamming those who haven't yet realized that it is happening.  As long as there are those out there that are willing to continue supporting this type of system, it will continue.  As I have stated before, we realized the "scam" a long time ago and have long ago decided that we will not support such activity.  Those that decide to participate, no hard feelings here, you do you, I'll do me.

Exactly

3 minutes ago, JimmyVWine said:

Do you really think that the cruise lines have not test-marketed this concept?  Or restaurants for that matter?  I can guarantee you that the system is the way it is because the cruise line knows that if it charges $1,120 up front instead of $1,000 with $17 per day for 7 days added on as gratuities, it will sell fewer cruises.  People seem to think that they know the industry better than the people who actually run it.  When you go to a restaurant and see a steak on the menu for $40, if you order it, you are going to pay $48.  You aren't being cheated, or hoodwinked, or deceived.  And the $8 gratuity that you pay is not a "reward" for the server.  It is part of their pay.  We live with this reality every day.  The system is working.  If it weren't, it would change.  Businesses change to evolve to the better.  If they don't, they fail. We have to trust that the people running multi-billion dollar businesses actually have a grasp on this. 

P and O (UK based) include tips in the upfront price they charge for the cruise. All the staff pay is covered in that. 

They aren't failing. Still cheaper than land based holiday suppliers and carrying more passengers than ever before 

Zero deception and no obligation to pay any tips on board. 

We still do to cabin stewards and people who serve us well

Maybe P and O are more ethical than Princess?

Or maybe Princess can just get away with it for as long as they can

1 hour ago, whitecap said:

I agree that everyone should know that part of your "cruise fare" is used for wages.  But, when you label an additional charge as "crew appreciation" you are inferring that the additional charge is a tip for exception service to those crew members on your cruise and we all know that it is not.  Why not just call it what it is, compensation that is distributed to all crew members on all ships in the fleet!  Sleight of hand in advertising has become the norm. Crew appreciation is how they list it but, then in the fine print is tells you that may not be the case.  My DW and I have this discussion every time a commercial for Velveeta cheese comes on:  Is it cheese or not?  Well, it does have at lease 51% cheese.  How about Impossible Chicken Nuggets?  It looks like a typical chicken nugget, but it has no chicken in it; it is a veggie nugget.  Just call it what it is.  

Exactly it's deceptive

And deliberately so

Theres people in this thread explaining what's behind it all and why they do it. But it doesn't take away the fact it's deceptive and the vast majority don't have the advantage of coming on this forum to have it explained to them like this