RyderJ201

4 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

Exactly right. If you think the cruise line isn’t advertising those positions as tipped to potential employees, I don’t even know what to tell you. I’m positive they aren’t paying them tips for fun or benevolence.

I don't care. It's not positions we tip in the real world. When you tip the laundry staff at the next hotel you stay at, we will talk.

When you find a job washing sheets for a hotel that also pays tips, we will talk. Till then I live in this world. Not everyone gets a tip because there employer's are too cheap. 

5 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

You could say any job is not a tipped job if you don’t tip them yourself. But it doesn’t change reality.

Huh??? 

There are tipped positions and non tipped positions. That's the way all positions are advertised. That is the reality.

Do you hear yourself when you say something like that???

2 minutes ago, mjkacmom said:

Same as most restaurants in the US, many times all tips are pooled and then bus boys and bartenders get tipped out.

Not most. And sure doesn't include the cleaning crew etc. Not a fare comparison to the insane amount that get tipped from cruise line tipping pools. 

4 minutes ago, tottenhamfc said:

In restaurants in Canada the “unseen” are tipped out by the servers. They ARE a part of the tipped position. If a server didnt tip out the unseen employees would make their life miserable believe me. I have had three daughters who worked in the restaurant business.

Good for Canada.

Just now, fizzywm said:

Pointless semantics when the money goes into their paycheck. On RCCL, back of house and laundry are tipped positions.

Not if you don't want them to be by removing automatic gratuities.

3 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

Tips are part of the employees’ pay. We all know this.

Tips are in addition to pay. When working in a tipped position. Not a non tipped position.

4 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

3/4 of a dining employee’s take home pay isn’t pay? (Number per former RCCL employee in another thread)  

 

Call it whatever makes you feel better. The end result remains the same.

Your playing word games. 

Tips are tips. Pay is pay. The percentage they receive from each is not the issue with anyone in this conversation.

7 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

I told you more than once that how you feel about it morally is up to you. But the fact is for the time being, unless things change, we do subsidize those workers’ salaries through auto gratuities. The tips are part of their pay that they factor into the equation just like people in land based tipped positions. I’m sure the cruise lines don’t pay them tips for no reason whatsoever. I’ve also said many times that I don’t like it either, but it is what it is. 

And I'm sure they factor for the percentage that remove the automatic gratuities.

And based on what I've read on the other thread about to tip extra or not to. It seems more people are getting ready to join the removing club. 

Cruise lines (hotels/restaurants at sea) get away with dumping there financial responsibility to "behind the scenes" employees on the customer's. It's a scam I refuse to participate in. Paying those employees is what our cruise fare is for. Not 100% profits. They are not tipped positions. I'll tip my waiter. You pay your laundry staff out of profits. That's how I feel about it. 

5 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

My job? I don’t eat out or cruise to work. It is the employer’s job to pay employees fairly. The minimum guaranteed salary is all they should expect per the post I originally replied to.

 

Your semantics over the word paying are laughable. When I give anyone money for any reason I’m paying them.

 

And if you go back to the beginning of my posts in this thread you’ll see I’ve been consistent from the beginning in saying that it should be covered by the employer but it isn’t. No different for dining out on land (in US) than sea.

 

 

 

I'll give you this one. I don't think the base salary is so great. That's only an assumption. But people take the jobs because it's still a lot more than in their own country. 

that’s all I came here to say from the beginning. The money they make gets competitive when tips are factored in.

I'm no longer sure what we have been arguing about? I don't see tipping as paying, it's tipping, but who cares.

I thought you believed it was our moral responsibility to consider "behind the scenes" people before removing automatic gratuities and that we hurt them by doing so? That somehow that responsibility of subsidizing those workers salaries falls on us? Maybe you don't feel that way and I misunderstood? 

2 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

I saw a post in another thread from a former RCCL employee saying that dining staff make “maybe a quarter” of their usual take home pay when they are on the ship while it is drydocked. So that tells me that for dining staff the oh so competitive guaranteed minimum probably isn’t the amount they are signing on for. I’m sure back of house make less from tips. But if their salary is so competitive, why does the cruise line include tips?

I'll give you this one. I don't think the base salary is so great. That's only an assumption. But people take the jobs because it's still a lot more than in their own country. 

3 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

If it’s not your job to pay them, it’s not your job to pay them—period.

Hahaha. You literally ran out of comebacks.

It's your job to tip something for good service. Tipping for good service is not paying anyone. It's not your job to pre tip for possible good service or to tip people who don't serve you. 

Just now, fizzywm said:

To point out the inconsistency of saying “not my job to pay them”. Restaurants should pay servers too but no one here is advocating not paying tips there unless service is bad. You have to wonder what’s different about land vs sea.

The "not my job to pay them" is about the "behind the scenes" people. Nobody here has said they don't believe in not tipping servers for good service. It's tipping those you do not see (and automatic gratuities tipping for possible bad service from actual servers) that is in question.

1 minute ago, fizzywm said:

Why does it matter if they do a good job? It’s not your job to pay them, it’s the restaurant’s. That’s the mantra I’ve seen over and over here.

Because tipping "servers" is about the quality of their services. 

22 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

Which is no different than servers in a land based restaurant in the US. But this argument doesn’t fly there and everyone knows it. I’d love to see anyone on your side admit they stiff waiters since it is the restaurant’s job to pay them fairly. I would applaud the consistency.

Ah you said it "servers" in land based restaurants. You tip servers. You don't tip "behind the scenes" employees. That's the employer's job. 

1 minute ago, bucfan2 said:

As mentioned, this whole thread has me reconsidering the entire issue.  Do prefer facts over opinions...although some don't seem to let facts cloud their judgement.

Let me just say I don't say these things in hopes of anyone tipping less and certainly not tipping at all. Everyone should do what works best for them. 

2 minutes ago, TYMAN said:

Not shaming anybody. There's two sides to the story and both sides need to be heard. It's cool either way, just stating how I handle it just those that remove the auto's state how they handle it. It's a vacation, enjoy! 

Never ment you personally shaming. It's just the place so many go directly to. Enjoy.

12 minutes ago, bucfan2 said:

No, certainly don't need any proof for that fact.  How about the15-20% you mentioned?  Just can't seem to find that fact.

Again, based on the lists I've seen and quick math. You never answered my question. Would proof of percentage effect how you tip?

3 minutes ago, TYMAN said:

Yes, after rereading the posts, around six folks are considering removing the auto grats, but, how many "silent" folks, like me (until now, ha) will continue to leave the auto grats in place AND tip above and beyond the auto grats? Like I've stated on many of these tipping threads, I've collected quite a bit of singles when the cruise industry was shut down and I plan on giving those out to the crew members who didn't have an income during that time. Lastly, as I've stated before, I can't take it with me, and my son already has more money than me, so I'll take care of the crew that takes care of me. 

Nobody who keeps the automatic gratuities on this site or tips extra is silent. LOL.

And you can give every last cent you have. I don't care.

Not everyone has that luxury. Some have to save every penny to afford the voyage and afford what we consider normal tipping practices on land. 

Everyone do you. But don't shame how others do or how they view this situation. 

Again, the real bad guys are the cruise lines who want us to pay the works salaries.

6 minutes ago, bucfan2 said:

This 38 pages has made me reconsider some things.  And yes, most of my decisions are based on facts.  If I really cared what you did w/ your gratuites, I'd throw out some random data as well. Just trying to make an overall assessment - so ya, facts seems to work best. 

Fact. A percentage of passengers on each and every voyage remove the automatic gratuities. I doubt you need proof to believe this.

Fact. A percentage of all passengers don't remove automatic gratuities.

Fact. Crew still continue to sign on, work, and continue living.

And just an additional observation.

I read the thread asking if people are still tipping extra on top of automatic gratuities just now. It's maybe 10 or 20 pages long. I noticed in the course of conversation at least half a dozen people said they are considering removing auto grats for the first time because of the increase in amount vs what the people who actually serve them are getting vs what those folks won't get when they stop tipping extra. So more and more people are considering taking good care of just those that wait on them and leaving the big cruise corporations to make up the rest. In the end nobody should be made to feel bad for only wanting to tip the way they would anyplace else.

8 minutes ago, bucfan2 said:

Was wondering if you just picked random data that fits your argument...now we know.  And it's definitely 'nothing for you lot to worry about'...I think.

If I had written proof it was 15% would that be enough to convince you to stop paying automatic gratuities?

2 minutes ago, bucfan2 said:

Some appreciate real data.  Is this your data, or is there actual data that I've not been able to locate?  Love to see your reference for this # (an no, 'my 2nd cousins' best friends dad who knew this dude' is not 'real data').

The amount of names per page and amount of pages on the list I've seen when being added to it.

But I'm sure I'm the only person who removes them so nothing for you lot to worry about.

18 minutes ago, bretts173 said:

Hard to change history, Americans have been tipping and providing a decent wage this way since the 1800's.

Not exactly. Only with few exceptions like waiting tables. We don't tip kitchen staff. We don't tip cleaning staff in a restaurant or hotel. Just the waiters, housekeeping, bell men carrying our bags. Cooks, cleaners, maintenance staff of hotels and restaurants AKA " Behind the scenes " people get a salary. No cut of gratuities is involved. It's only on cruises we are expected to subsidize 1500 to 3000 people's salary. (25% of crew, 50%, 75% some are Very hung up on this number). Hotels, restaurants, resorts all pay salary to " behind the scenes " employees. Only cruise lines dump this guilt trip on customers to save on profits. 

6 minutes ago, Mick B said:

Hi,

Sorry I didn't state I was from the UK. I thought my details showed up at the left hand side of my post with Nottingham UK. Sorry if they don't.

 

Yes, I am from the UK, always use a TA and did believe that paying pre-paid grats was charged at a slightly lower rate than auto grats once on board. I never really checked if this had changed and it probably has, and if thats the case then I am sorry for my error. It is never my intention to post false information or mislead anyone. My aim is always to help anyone who needs help where I can from what I have witnessed before..

 

Also, yes I was referring to pre-paid and not auto grats. I prefer to pay upfront for two reasons, firstly, after final payment my holiday is paid. Import to me because if things go south financially later, I still get my holiday, secondly, so the staff get their grats and I am happy that they do.

Lastly, due to UK rules, on European cruises, we have to pay pre-paid grats if we want My Time Dinning.

I am aware I cannot remove the pre-paid grats, but I have never felt the need to do so. Yes money is tight, but I carefully choose a cruise that I can afford to pay in full in the first place.

 

BTW in the past on the rare occasion when we have not been happy with something like the condition of the cabin, rather than demand a refund of gratuities, we have simply accepted a move to a similar or better cabin, not sure if thats now still possible though!

Again, back in 2019 on the Anthem out of Bayonne, we had very bad service in one of the MDRs and rather than demand a refund of grats, we simply had the staff in question given a right telling off - oh and on our 2 sailings on this ship afterwards, service was improved!

 

Removing grats removes the tips from staff that have done well too, which I do not think is right or fair. If someone has not performed their duty and it has impacted you then a complaint to guest services or the head waiter etc would be a fairer course of action.

 

Now if I want to give an employee or employees an envelope with some cash for outstanding service, then that is my choice. If I don't feel that anyone has done anything special then they still should have received my pre-paid grats, which I have no issue with.

 

Mick.

And I don't believe it's fair to expect the customer to tip a percentage to staff they never see. That's not the custom anywhere else. Everywhere else you only tip those who directly provide you with a service. 

Everyone mentions the crew in the back doing a good job. What about the one's who do a rotten job? They get an equal cut too. I'm sure some are great. Just as I'm sure some stink. But we ever talk about them. We don't know who's done what. Why? We never see these people. Is it fair that waiters get tips, but people washing sheets in hotels don’t? A gratuity is a tip for good service. People behind the scenes do a job, not provide a service. And jobs come with wages. That's where a percentage of passage charged to customers should go. 

11 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

Again you dishonestly use the word ALL as though anyone here is saying that ALL staff should receive gratuities. Talk about word games. I haven’t seen anyone saying the captains, entertainers, insert any of 100 other positions should receive gratuities. I think most everyone here is in agreement that it would be better if the cruise line paid non customer facing staff directly. It doesn’t change the fact that removing auto grats removes pay certain parts of the crew count on.

Like I said All, 50%, whatever. No dishonest use. Just shorter to type than x amount of %. A large number of. What's the difference if it's all or 2000 out of 3000? It's still way more than should be on my plate. 

The fact is what removing automatic gratuities effects is not my problem. Don't count on my money. I never agreed to it. Again, I don't care about the financial implications of automatic gratuities on behind the scenes people. I can't care. It's not my job to fix the problems of the world. I do what I feel is my part. 

Its a shame so many are brainwashed into feeling it's there responsibility to make up for what the cruise lines save as profit, that should be payroll.

16 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

They are clearly talking about the behind the scenes people who already receive tips. That is far from “the salary of all on board”.

"All" or 50% of crew. 75% of crew. Whatever. Still too many people that I have no contact with.